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#1910387 07/17/07 11:17 AM
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Let's take this off of Orange Pearl's thread. She does not need any undue drama. You posted this:

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I am very curious about this issue. After 17 years of a marriage characterized by much loss and capitulation on my part, I unfortuantely dev an EA with an individual with whom I had contact through work related activities. Knowing the risks inherent in such relationship, I immediately sought counseling to attempt to find resolution. My spouse asked about the relationship a few weeks later, and I honestly admitted our marriage was in crisis. Immediately, my spouse set about a "scorched earth" strategy coupled with extremely aggressive divorce proceedings. All I wanted was one, even small attempt at a plan A to address my losses...something...anything...Instead, I was the beneficiary of sweeping aggression...I believe I have attempted to accept responsibility for my failure....and I have searched for something to hang on to....Despite long, drawn out, vile divorce proceedings of which the breach is the only focus (not our failings leading up to it), I still struggle with how to find something to hang on to....no plan A strategies have been considered, despite some inquiries. At this point, because of the vindictive nature of the exposure strategy...which I believe was unnecessary because I was attempting emotional honesty coupled with an accountable stance...friends and family are polarized. Some simply detached due to the drama, our respective families have grown defensive..going as far as to end contact if a choice to reconcile is pursued as the exposure strategies were seen as lacking in protection and care.....All points are well taken...I understand the feelings of the BS....absolutely....I have however been literally beaten down by the assault...so relentlessly, that considering it a LB doesn't seem to capture it....It still leaves me with such sadness and loss....we have children and I don't want this for them....but I don't know how to recover from this type of response either...Just wanted to share that perspective and solicit additional commentary
Your perspective on your BW's scorched earth exposure is your perspective. Perhaps if you are being honest here and I have to assume you are as you are the one here not your BW, your BW took this as an opportunity to D and make you the bad guy.

This is not what OP and others here are doing. They are trying to save their marriages. The surest way to stop an A is through exposure. A's thrive on the darkness and secrecy and often die when brought to the light of day. Due to OP's WH working in the entertainment field she really did need to do an across the board broad exposure as quickly as she could. We all know the entertainment industry is ripe for adultery.

Now, do you still want to save your M? What can we help you with?


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You beat me to it


M2L

ME BH 36 - FWW 33
2 kids
DDAY May 06


Sometimes waywards can be like Laxatives ..... They irritate the crap out of you.
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There is more to my story...still trying to figure out how to start a "thread" lol....help?

My story got lost, with the breach taking precedent and overriding all else.... The "scored earth" perspective included my business, public humiliation, family/friend relationship sabotage....My whole life has been lead with such honor....it is ironic I find myself in this position. I made a mistake. I admit it freely....I wanted to solve the problem, resolve it with responsibility...one way or another....I never got the chance and now I fear it cannot be recovered...my parent's tell me I would be "stupid", and "idiot" "crazy" for considering going back to someone who would hurt me in a time of crisis, not assist me....they fear for me and my children and a life we would have leaving under such aggressive circumstances...Don't get me wrong, I understand the feelings associated with the breach, accept them, desired to see what could be done to work with and accomodate....while at the same time attempting to recover some of the life we had agreed to live together....fairly....the subsequent actions have been so horrible....I swear I have PTSD...alternately anxious, numb....beaten...not sure which is better...allowing the process to unfold as was designed...or begging for it to stop...I just want you all to know there is struggle here also


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Blackntwrk,

I have only read by FF has posted on this thread. But I think I need to make a comment. Exposure is STRONGLY encouraged on this site. Why? Because it is one of the more effective ways to end an affair. If the affair has already ended Harley does not advocate disclosure or non disclosure.

The purpose of exposure is to obtain other people's assistance and support in rebuilding the marriage. Your description suggests that the exposure was NOT for this purpose and no attempt has been made by the betrayed spouse to reconcile or rebuild the marriage. Is this correct?

The other posters on this thread sense self-entitlement, resentment etc. I don't sense that from what I have read. But, the question of your goals and intentions is a good one. What are they?

God Bless,

JL

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Blackntwrk,

Even if your wife says she doesn't want to reconcile, you can get useful information on this site to get yourself through the crisis. If the divorce becomes a fact, using positive steps to get through it is better than allowing yourself to spiral downward.

Since you have kids, they deserve a healthy father. You can't control what your wife does, but you can decide what your actions and words will be.

Divorce is one of the worst things to go through in terms of life crises. Your wife's scorched earth actions are recommended when an affair is uncovered. Her motives may not be to restore or rebuild the marriage; she may just be full of rage and hurt.

But, in time, she may think better of it. She doesn't have anyone romantically, in that sense you are ahead of the game compared to couples where one decides to divorce - the pull of the new love screws with the cheater's mind.

Read up on Plan A. If you want to recover, dig into that and try applying it to yourself. There is nothing harmful or negative in it. It's about being a better, handsomer (:-)) more appealing spouse to come back to once the other half of the couple cools down.

Please, post back.

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I don't know...I really don't know what to do. I want what we promised each other all those years ago...I want my children (3 ours, 1 my step...with whom my spouse has removed all abilities to parent despite 15 years with her...She has been informed of my breach and followed the lead for "scorched earth" ...sigh I fear I have lost her forever, but that is another story...)...

Not sure if you refer to other's perception of an entitlement or resentment on my behalf...confused here.

Bottom line, no opportunity to see if we could accomodate this issue, along with a myriad of others, into some sort of reconciliation plan. All is so focused on the breach, as well as having to defend myself in aggressive litigation...Spouse says "I tried....you didn't." My counselor said watch for plan A type behaviors in my spouse....they were not forthcoming...My spouse said I stopped talking....I was STUNNED....paralyzed....and having to scramble to find a lawyer, protect myself....and attempt to address the scandal played out in my community. I am beaten....truly and completely. But, more than anything, I miss having my children with me every second....when being a parent is the only thing I ever really wanted...So much is gone...but I don't know how to reconicle with someone who not only hurt me in the marriage (devastating loss...from the number of children to career sabotage), but, during my/our crisis...again..I accept responsibility....I apologized for it, was trying to find a way....I feel like I am bleeding from all the bullet holes in my back....and I don't know how to survive it and find a way to be companions in a relationship where we could forge some type of partnership and protect our children....

I am muddled here...not communicating well...there is urgency (read panic) in my dilemma here as a trial (sigh) is being pursued and, ultimately, a divorce is likely in the next few months....pressure to find answers, manage stress, manage new financial situation...try and love my kids to death....sorry....

Is there any hope for survival? I am concerned about the aggression displayed, whether we all would continue to suffer from its effects for decades to come....I don't want my children to see that, either...but I don't want to deprive them of their family either...

I have no family support for reconciling...my spouse probably doesn't either...Counselors have told me the aggression = end it....I have little support for even questioning the divorce...called stupid, crazy....I want objective assistance....am I just failing to accept it's over and it, really and truly, is??? Or should I try something...if so, what?

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BT...

Have you ended all contact with the affair partner? I would strongly recommend that you call Steve Harley for his professional advice...He can and will help you with a personalized plan...Just click on the coaching center link at the top of the page...It sounds like your counselors aren't very pro marriage, Steve Harley is...What do you think about setting up an appointment?

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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blackntwrk,

Odd as this may sound, she wouldn't be so vindictive if she didn't love you. She's mad because you hurt her, and you couldn't have hurt her if she didn't care. The opposite of love is not hate; it's indifference. Unfortunately, she's not dealing with her rage in a very productive way, but she's only human.

Marriage counselors have very high failure rates (except those following Harley's plans apparently) and divorce lawyers almost always advise you to divorce. So forget what they say. By the way, a counselor once told my mother she should get a divorce. There were good reasons why maybe she should have, but they are together and happy now.

Either way, you know the OW is bad news even if you did get divorced, so cut off all contact. If you really want your wife back the best thing to do would be to change jobs. That will tell her you are serious about this. And because you are the one most interested in saving the marriage, it is you who needs to do Plan A, not her. (I seem to be in the same boat.)

Also, there is always some legal excuse you can use for dragging out a divorce indefinitely. Talk to your lawyer and use every inch of red tape available. Ask your lawyer what would happen if you "accidentally" on purpose lost some paperwork.

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black, it sounds as if she in not interested in reconcilation, which is often the case. Some spouses decide to just move on and that is her right.

However, that doesn't mean that you can't do a Plan A yourself and try to win her back by redeeming yourself. That is how my H was allowed to come back. Have you ended all contact with your affair partner?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Yes....I already have made an appointment with the MB team for a consult on Fri morning....thank you for that feedback...

I have seen 3 different counselors, who all have expressed concern about the length of time the "vindictiveness" has gone on (almost 2 years) as well as the severity...and lack of interest in implementing Rules of Protection, especially around LB's...there is no path, it seems...


The funny thing is, I offered all you suggest. Went for a drive one Sunday afternoon...said I would end relationship...would schedule a business trip to initiate NC (and make sense to kids) and that I would proceed with plan to accept new position out of state and transfer process (we, up until that point, had been planning on a move out of state for a "once in a lifetime" career move...). I was told "No"...and aggressive divorce proceedings were on there way....I cannot understand....I capitulated (as always)...trying, trying, trying to find a way. I figured, if we could just get away and start anew, maybe we could find something...But...then....the legal process was in play..hard...fast...and it has been the most demoralizing, humiliating experience...and I cannot come up for air because defense is now necessary....My children have been subjected to social workers in our home (custody battle...which I never, ever wanted), their school...crawling through our lives like we are scum....We are not people with whom such attention would ever be focused...Yet, I have been dragged through court, my very heart and soul (my love for my children) scrutinized as if I were a common street thug....None of the maneuverings have been successful, but the are not only LB's..they are love killers...I now have no marriage, no family, my career is ruined (because I cannot leave the state due to custody restraints...and I will NEVER abandon my children...)The issues between my spouse and I were real and difficult...but when I discovered my attraction was escalating, I was trying...I really was trying...and I did not abandon my responsibilities to my children...ever. I simply was trying to cope with very personal pain and struggle....What started all this has been forgotten...and it was those issues I wanted to address and resolve for improvement...Though, again, I do agree that my spouse's resolution would have to come in time and with patience and care...

But, again...I just can't seem to find my way. I have attempted plan A's...being cooperative with the children (I do not get this in return..in fact had to actually go to court because my spouse was leaving town for a vacation and would not give me simple contact information re: their whereabouts etc...), trying to at least suggest fair mediation process vs. trials, for God's sake....including in birthday's, holidays, school events...etc...But those silly games have begun (switching appointments so I show up on the wrong day and miss participation). It's a nightmare...

We exchanged emails a week or so ago...again, I tried to "test the waters"....there is no entrance, seemingly....and I am weary...and feel like giving up....

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Yes....I already have made an appointment with the MB team for a consult on Fri morning....thank you for that feedback...

I have seen 3 different counselors, who all have expressed concern about the length of time the "vindictiveness" has gone on (almost 2 years) as well as the severity...and lack of interest in implementing Rules of Protection, especially around LB's...there is no path, it seems...


The funny thing is, I offered all you suggest. Went for a drive one Sunday afternoon...said I would end relationship...would schedule a business trip to initiate NC (and make sense to kids) and that I would proceed with plan to accept new position out of state and transfer process (we, up until that point, had been planning on a move out of state for a "once in a lifetime" career move...). I was told "No"...and aggressive divorce proceedings were on there way....I cannot understand....I capitulated (as always)...trying, trying, trying to find a way. I figured, if we could just get away and start anew, maybe we could find something...But...then....the legal process was in play..hard...fast...and it has been the most demoralizing, humiliating experience...and I cannot come up for air because defense is now necessary....My children have been subjected to social workers in our home (custody battle...which I never, ever wanted), their school...crawling through our lives like we are scum....We are not people with whom such attention would ever be focused...Yet, I have been dragged through court, my very heart and soul (my love for my children) scrutinized as if I were a common street thug....None of the maneuverings have been successful, but the are not only LB's..they are love killers...I now have no marriage, no family, my career is ruined (because I cannot leave the state due to custody restraints...and I will NEVER abandon my children...)The issues between my spouse and I were real and difficult...but when I discovered my attraction was escalating, I was trying...I really was trying...and I did not abandon my responsibilities to my children...ever. I simply was trying to cope with very personal pain and struggle....What started all this has been forgotten...and it was those issues I wanted to address and resolve for improvement...Though, again, I do agree that my spouse's resolution would have to come in time and with patience and care...

But, again...I just can't seem to find my way. I have attempted plan A's...being cooperative with the children (I do not get this in return..in fact had to actually go to court because my spouse was leaving town for a vacation and would not give me simple contact information re: their whereabouts etc...), trying to at least suggest fair mediation process vs. trials, for God's sake....including in birthday's, holidays, school events...etc...But those silly games have begun (switching appointments so I show up on the wrong day and miss participation). It's a nightmare...

We exchanged emails a week or so ago...again, I tried to "test the waters"....there is no entrance, seemingly....and I am weary.

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The funny thing is, I offered all you suggest. Went for a drive one Sunday afternoon...said I would end relationship...would schedule a business trip to initiate NC (and make sense to kids) and that I would proceed with plan to accept new position out of state and transfer process (we, up until that point, had been planning on a move out of state for a "once in a lifetime" career move...). I was told "No"...and aggressive divorce proceedings were on there way....I cannot understand....I capitulated (as always)...trying, trying, trying to find a way.

Ok, now I understand her reasoning. You didn't DO what we suggested at all, you just make an empty offer. Talk is cheap. She shouldn't bother with it as long as you are still having your affair. Making an "offer" is meaningless. It is just empty talk. I can understand why she would not be interested. If you want her to be interested, you will have END YOUR AFFAIR first.

Has she told you she won't bother with you unless and until you end your affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Another thing I would like to point out is your seeming lack of understanding about the damage caused by your affair. Adultery is as traumatic as RAPE or the death of a child. It is only natural that a rape victim will be ANGRY or even "vindictive" as a result of a sexual assault. You speak as if you are the victim here, but the real victim is your wife and your children. I think it is real important for you to understand the damage you have caused by your affair instead of worrying about how badly your rape victim reacts to your ongoing assault.

You seem to have this expectation that you are entitled to forgiviness. However, she should not even consider such a thing until YOU STOP THE ADULTERY. Until that happens, there is nothing TO forgive.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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The issues between my spouse and I were real and difficult...but when I discovered my attraction was escalating, I was trying...I really was trying...and I did not abandon my responsibilities to my children...ever. I simply was trying to cope with very personal pain and struggle....

You simply were having an affair. And yes, that is abandoning your responsibilities to your children. Your affair wrecked their family. You are awfully fogged out, black, and are not being honest about what you have done.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Mel has again hit the target.
Those were exactly the words that stood out to me too.

Black; I suspect you are still involved in an affair. Why on earth would your wife do any LESS than what she's done after what YOU have done?

You're trying to placate her with "niceness" and being "confused" while you continue to DESTROY her.
And you wonder why she won't accept your puny gestures.

Wake up.

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I definitely understand the magnitude of this event and the consequences. I do not expect forgiveness, perhaps an attempt to work toward accomodation of some sort with an eye toward constructing a new relationship characterized by the qualities Harly suggests are useful in sustaining a long term, intimate relationship. I accept the feelings extended to me....

The NC policy with the other individual was initiated at the time of our drive, and it was my desire to communicate that at that time, along with some sense that, together we might investigate what could be done to address this marriage effectively.....and perhaps going along with our original family plan came at a good time.

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black, have you ended all contact with your affair partner? That is what has to happen first. Has that happened?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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BlkNet:

How about posting a timeline of your Affair, and where this "Drive" comes into play.

Be expansive in your timeline. Give us the real info, and we can help.

If you "drove" with your BS last week, and made that offer, then you still have along ways to drive.

IF this "drive" happened 23 months ago, and NC was established after that, then thats a whole different story? Get it?

So, start there.


LG


PS: MEL! Where you BEEN!
Darn that Work!

LG

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LG, work is interfering with my online time!!! How dare they!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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15 year relationship....Serious struggles started about 5-6 in....Attempted to identify and communicate needs to spouse...with seriousness and frequency. Open to spouse's as well....wanted relationship to work. Experienced difficulty in compliance, little info coming the other direction. Suggested counseling a number of times, to no avail. Sought myself, at various times, to try and find different ways to resolve. At some point, I think I gave up, figured the relationship was going to be what it was...and I made the classic mistake of just trudging forward. Along the way, lot's of LB's, destructiveness....just trying to keep my head above water...work, raise my beautiful children....and learn to live without the marriage I wanted....thought my spouse wanted, initially. Classic mistakes...we lived parallel lives...not by choice, mind you...there just seemed so much indifference and I couldn't reconcile it. ((Frankly, I was concerned about infidelity on my spouses part..so much withdrawal....indifference....unaccountability...eg. business trips where couldn't be reached for days...the discovery of bc in travel bag...which we did not use...)). But, nothing really mattered....just wanted to sustain the family...

I met the OP through a work related encounter about 3 years ago....very little contact for a year or so...Began to seek counseling on my own unrelated to this OP, just the larger issues with which we struggle...investigating legal options....just so I knew what the scenario could look like....gathering information. By that point, really struggling with big ticket issues...no negotiating was possible...and I was really sad. Spouse moved into separate bedroom....sigh...

Anyway...the OP helped with some issues related to a growing business I had, so the frequency of contact increased. When I noticed I looked forward to the visits I did have, I grew really nervous. I sought counseling at that point because I figured a EA was developing....Since I was in such a raw state, and felt my attempts to bring these issues to light yet again would be rejected, I went to the counselor. Was in counseling, trying to methodically analyze and understand my position, when my spouse checked my phone and found a text from the OP that was thought to be overly friendly. Interestingly, I was never an "off limits" private person....spouse had access to all data at all times....There was never any inquiry. But, spouse clearly worried... I admitted then that our marriage was in crisis...that I had developed feelings for this person, and we REALLY needed to address this issue head on....

I continued in counseling, invited my spouse too as well. I think, looking back, we had counselors that were not overly familiar with Harley, or perhaps unskilled. In any case, we never could seem to get a plan together....and the process was very frustrating. In any case, through my own individual work, I simply decided to end any contact with OP, would make the choice known to my partner....but I made it clear I wanted and needed to negotiate another type of relationship because I felt the one we had was tanking not only me, but the family. I strongly suspect, too, my spouse may have been struggling with some personal issues and I was unable or too unskilled to help....This was about 2 years ago...so, once I made the decision, I took my spouse for a drive, I believe it was literally the next day following my counseling with my therapist...I said I was going to NC the OP (had already started...but little time had past), and I spoke further about the fact that Harley said sometimes extreme measures were the best option...Since we had been anticipating a move out of state, we should focus on that....get out of dodge so to speak, and start counseling when we arrive and settle in the next place. Ironically, it was a place we had always wanted to live, offered lot's of opportunity for us as a family-career, future, experience--seemed like a fresh start...something to look foward too maybe....Knowing the separation from the OP would be difficult (per Harley) I mentioned that a business trip of mine was coming up....that I could further distance self from OP by virtue of not being around for awhile (and the explanation would make sense to the kids)...and then we start the transfer process...Thought the time period would be just enough to give me an edge on any withdrawal process....My spouse simply said "no...I am going in another direction"....I tried to get my spouse to at least consider options...and following our drive, we agreed we wouldn't pursue divorce unless we both spoke, and came to the joint conclusion that it couldnt be saved. I was served with divorce papers within a few days.

We are almost 2 years into legal proceedings....I have never been committed to this course of action...Does this information help?

LG...I was struck, very much, by your earlier comments...almost to the point of tears. I have heard, acknowledge, validated, and apologized for the pain I have caused.....I accept it without question. One little break...because the destructiveness has been overwhelming...I understand it...but one break in it...one opening...I am not deferring responsibility...nor am I blaming my spouse. I made the mistake.

And so, I do not know what to do....legal proceedings will be coming to a close...stalled as long as possible...Trial has been delayed twice...I cannot even believe there is a trial...Even judge has instructed BS to stop destructiveness...to point of compromising time with kids...it's horrible....So, is there a way to overcome the destructivenss that has happened since, address the original issues in relationship, and find some type of partnership?

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