Wow, am I learning some amazing insight and information from this.

Thank you, Bugs - you are helping me prepare myself for Plan B.

I'm taking it all in, trust me.

B

I LOVE SIS' POST! I agree with her a zillion percent....




Here I go again...

He has got to SUFFER...reach the bottom of the barrel..before he ever gets to the point of changing or wanting to reconcile with you.

Any time you meet any need of his..HE IS RELIEVED OF HIS MISERY...

And something in you wants to come to his aid...and when you do, you meet an emotional need of his...so WHAT IS HIS MOTIVATION TO CHANGE this situation?

He will change when he has to SUFFER..suffer as a result of having to rely on the OW to help him..and they will fail...

Dr. Harley of course explains it best:

Further, (I forgot to say this in my haze last night) I think that is teaching your daughter an important lesson....even if it makes things a tad more difficult or awkward for her.

The lesson is this (and I think it's an especially important lesson for girls):

You do not NEED to be around someone who hurts you. Someone who hurts you is NOT loving. Actions speak louder than words. Staying away from people who hurt you is protecting yourself. It should NOT be viewed as hurtful--it is self-preservation.

If and when the hurtful person BEHAVES in a way that is TRULY loving and protecting of your heart, THEN and only then should you CONSIDER allowing that person to re-enter your life.

Bottom line: You are perfectly within your rights to turn away from people who hurt you.

This is, of course, a conscious choice. You can choose to keep the hurtful person in your life, but you do so at your peril.

I think women often get caught up in feeling OBLIGATED to "do for." Yuck. It is not true. We are ONLY obligated to ourselves (and our young children).

The only OBLIGATION, IMO, is to state your truth to the hurtful person. Let that person know in no uncertain terms that his/her behavior is hurtful, and because of that, you need to withdraw....and you will remain "withdrawn" until the behavior becomes loving. (thus PBL)

I don't know quite how this fits in a marital relationship, though...????

You can't just withdraw...you need to negotiate...is that where POJA comes in?

Sorry if I'm TJing, Bugs.

ETA: thanks, mimi.

And furthermore. (I'm on a roll, here)

First, BR would thump me for apologizing, so scratch that.

Second, I see a lot of wondering, pondering the effect this or that will have on Drac, how he may or may not react, or on your chances for recovery.

Of course our minds all "go there." I'm speaking in very broad terms...not implying that you shouldn't even think about Drac. That's just not possible.

However...THIS TIME--this darkness--is for YOU. You are growing for YOU. Drac hitting or not hitting bottom, when he will, if he will, the challenges of recovery, what he's doing....STOP IT.

You can't know. You don't NEED to know. It may NEVER happen...so live your life for TODAY. Love today! Take all that God has blessed you with and rejoice in it!

This is so much easier said than done, I know. And I can't imagine trying to get into this frame of mind with Drac constantly knocking.

Okay, now I REALLY gotta go or everyone is going to be late.

BIG-Sis!

Wow, thanks for all of that, you ARE on a roll!! I can argue none of the points you & Mimi make, not that I want to!

I've been sitting here trying to reason out an HONEST evaluation of myself. I think much of my pondering is due to battling the IRL opinions that surround us all.

With the exception of my Mom, no one IRL really understands and are pushing me to try to be a friendly co-parent "for the sake of the kids". Of course no one believes there is ANY chance of changes in Drac, so they believe it's best to just get along. The general consensus seems to be that by refusing to 'work' with him, I am being petty and bitter.

It would all be much, much easier if it were not for the situation with DSS being with Drac. That is what he's used to try to pull me in, and I've let him do it. THAT continues to be my biggest struggle.

The conversation you have outlined above is one that I, indeed, have had with DD - almost EXACTLY. She gets it, too! I totally agree it is a very important lesson.

Mimi, it is likely right on that Drac is finding OW lacking in the support areas, and finding he can't do what needs to be done on his own, which is why he is reaching out to me. Making me 'feel' responsible because it is for the benefit of DSS, that he needs my help. Total manipulation. He further knows that *I* feel obligated and that others IRL will encourage me in that feeling of obligation.

Well, time for him to stand alone. As far as anything we can "do together", there isn't anything more as far as I am concerned. He either stands up and does what he needs to or he doesn't. I can not change or control his actions - but further than that (which I think is the key here) I can't come behind and try to FIX or Clean Up when he doesn't do his part. RIGHT?!!


LOL!! I LOVED Lost In Space!! This gives me a great mental reminder when tempted by the 'dark side'.

So, we are set with the court appointed schedule for the holidays. Done. No need to discuss or interact.

Today, DD is off school for the Christmas break. We are wrapping presents this morning, getting her a bath after, going to 2 offices of my work to deliver gifts, then to Drac Aunt #1 to deliver cousin's presents, then Drac Aunt #2 for the other cousin present, and then ppicking up DSS. Then,,,,, drive back to my area for DD's latch key Chirsmas performance early evening.

We just finished a snuggle session on the couch! We were talking about what would we do without each other and agreed, we would be able to do nothing! If I had not another thing in the world, that would be fine with me, as she is my greatest blessing!

Thankfully, God continues to bless me in so many ways - Especially with the gift of you all here to help & support me.

Where else would I find great insight, support, Goddess training, AND wood chippers??!!??! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bugs:

We watched "Groundhog Day" with Bill Murray and Andie McDowell last night.

And you need to be more like Andie in that movie.

Unless Bill was "perfect", he just got slapped, and she left.

Until Bill finally worked on and improved himself from the manipulative and conviving and sarcastic self, he never had a chance.

You need to be more like Andie.

You have delivered the slap. With your FIRST plan B letter.

And Drac keeps coming BACK.

And expecting you to respond to his foolishness.

Please, Please stop.

There was a reason that Drac's FIRST wife is not involved with him.

She might have been crazy. But who is the common denominator to these relationships?

The two or three R's he had before he found you?

And the two or three R's he was had since he found you?

Drac.

And HIS desire to have you manage that difficult aspect of his life, kids, home, etc, whatever, while he is just involved with himself.

Please have that meeting, and lay it out, and GO DARK.

Or, even better at this point, just GO DARK.

Because he isn't WORTH the effort.

He was on good behavior with you when he met you, courted you, and was interested in you. Then he lost that interest, and divorced you.

You should let his pain stay in the street and never cross your threshold.

HE might "break" and come to his senses. He IS in his senses. And that sense is that I need many women to serve my various needs.

And I will use whatever women who allows me to get it.

LilSis had a terriffic series of posts to you. I'm proud to see her strength coming thru.

Your strengh comes thru as well. I see it. I even admire it. Please be Andie. And Slap Drac every time he approaches you with foolishness.

Because until he decides to come at you with perfection, that all he deserves.

((((BM))))

LG

I totally understand the IRL pressure. I feel that as well. However, by stating it in the way I've described tends to diffuse some of that.

He has hurt you terribly, continues to do so, shows no regard for your feelings...and you are expected to have a friendly relationship with him? Why, exactly, when you have a divorce decree? And for whose benefit? (I'll tell you for whose benefit: those IRL critics. THEY are uncomfortable.)

You are not doing this to punish him. You are not doing it out of spite. You are not trying to make things more awkward for DS (as if the awkwardness is caused by YOUR actions??).

You are doing this to protect YOU. Your feelings. Your sanity. Your peace of mind. So that you can get on with YOUR life instead of getting dragged into the drama.

You are not a masochist, for goodness sake.

If Drac would CHOOSE to behave as a gentleman and a show sincere remorse and regret, THEN you can CHOOSE to explore the dynamics of a relationship.

As it IS...you don't NEED to HAVE a relationship. The divorce papers have established the parameters for you.

THAT'S what you can say to your critics IRL. It makes perfect sense to mine: "I am under no obligation to make room in my life for someone who has hurt me." It's pretty hard to argue with that, IMO.

As you pointed out, however, you have two incredibly complicating factors: DSS and the fact that Drac keeps pressing your boundary.

You have to be especially vigilant and careful. Can't help you there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again, Sis!

I am standing more firm today in dealing with the IRL folks, thanks!!

Yesterday was planned as a busy, busy day, but I had to adjust my schedule when DD spiked a fever. All went ok, and we picked up DSS shortly after he got out of school early. I was glad to see that Drac atleast got the Christmas tree put up at the house for the kids.

I did better yesterday even with the kids when they each brought up Drac stuff. DD said that Daddy is taking her to Florida in February. Instead of questions or asking WTH? I simply said "that's interesting" and changed the subject.

When DSS told me that when were to call Drac last night, he might not answer and would call them back because "He is going to be at a meeting". I tried to keep my laugh quiet and said nothing. Geez,,,,he even has to lie to his kids. How sad.

Yesterday I finally got a call back from my attorney about the sale of the last piece of property. I had read the decreee and had some questions about the final settlement. Well,,,,,before I could ask any questions, she brought up what I was going to ask. Seems that the paperwork (drafted by HIS attorney) is SILENT as to the profit or loss on the sale and as it states earlier in the document that *I* retain all rights in the property,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am entitled to keep ALL of the 'profit' from the sale.

She has a call in to this attorney so that they are aware of this. He could choose not to close or even try to file an emergency injunction - - - we'll have to see.

I am trying not to think about what his reaction will or won't be when he finds out!!

Well, seems the kids are having a hard time getting along today, so time for me to supervise a project. Think we'll do some cookies or finish wrapping gifts.

Morning Bugs,

I am in awe of your strength and soaking up all the wisdom everyone is posted.

My heart and prayers and eyes are watvhing you girl.

Bracha

Skins,,,

Don't be so quick to be in awe,,,,,look at yourself - you have much to be proud of!!

Well, a surprising day. Mom came this am and watched kids while I went for follow up dr appt. That all went well. Got home to kids being kids,,,,at each other in that brother/sister picking way.

Well, FIL called and was finally accepting my invite to come visit the new house and to have dinner with us. I wasn't prepared for it, so had to run to the store. Got it all done & was starting dinner when he arrived. It was SO nice to see him. I made a new stuffed chicken recipe, during which I had about 30 min. to relax and spend time with everyone. FIL has a Nextel radio. It went off and Drac's voice came over the speaker asking FIL what he was doing.

FIL replied , "Visiting with your kids and Bugs". NO reply from Drac. FIl & I exchanged looks but said nothing at the time. We got time to 'talk' later about all kinds of things. He said that he can not say anything about the kids after coming to visit because Drac thinks *I* put FIL up to everything,,,, when the truth is FIL & I 'think alike', especially when it comes to the kids.

Drac tells them all that I "am not family" and none of his family should have nothing to do with me. His answer, and all of them answer "Yes, she is family, especially because of the kids" And they all think a lot of my R wit DSS. Drac HATES that. So, unfortunately, FIL may have heck to pay with Drac about this visit. FIL's reply is that "Too bad. He's not going to say who I talk to and who I don't".

For now, that is a huge LB in Drac's world. That's too bad. I told FIL about my feeling re:Drac. He's a good man deep down,,, a man that I love,,,,but he is not being that man now, so he can not be part of my life. FIL seems to understand.

Anyway,,,,, we had "Christmas" together and it was great! Kids were good and FIL was really surprised at their great behavior here. I explained it takes about 24 hours after DSS arrives, but once we settle into our "routine" here, life is really good. That DD and I have a VERY good life here all of the time. Of course we miss everyone from "back home" and think of them often. They will always be our family and are always welcome at our home.

Good stuff!!

Bugs,

I'm so happy for you. Both my parents and my H's parents are dead. H and I only have a sister each. He has NOTHING to do with her, in fact I am really close to her.

I remember when I was at SIL house for Thanksgiving I was crying because I felt like this A was taking my family from me and if he divorced me I would lose out on that part of my family. They said the same thing, that I would always be their aunt to my neices and a sister to SIL. That felt good. His favorite aunt, is so disappointed in him and just wants him to get his act together. She is truly hurting over this and is angry in someways. She says we don't do low class. LOL

Tell me about your house, what colors are they? Do you like to cook?

Bracha,

Yes, it feels good to have those folks let me know that they care - - - but Drac HATES it. Right now, for him, it is a big LB. Oh well, too bad for him.

The funny thing is that for all of the years we were married, he had little good to say about his family. Now, he expects their undying support and can not figure out why he does not have it??!!

Drac just finished drilling the kids about our evening. I was upstairs (as I always am when they talk to him as I try to avoid hearing anything). DD came upstairs to talk to him about what she got for DSS for Christmas. Guess it's bugging him that I bought presents for everyone to give everyone, as *I* always have done. Whatever,,,,not my worry.

Let's see,,, my house is done in the colors which were here when I moved in back in August. I am going to start my re-decorating next year. Right now, it's all pretty neutral, with purple accents in my room, taupe/green in the living room, red/black chefs in the kitchen, and High School Musical in DD's room. My bathroom is Lighthouses (not MY thing), and DD's is ducks, which she loves.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE to cook special dinners. Tonight, as a matter of fact, I picked a new recipe to make for FIL. Everyday cooking for me and DD is hard,,,,not enough volume and what i REALLY love is too extravagant for everyday.

I love trying new things. I taught Drac to cook & he acts like he's done it all of his life, when the truth is, HIS mom NEVER cooked for him at all. He had times when he was VERY young, where he went to the neighbors virtually begging for food. Of course, that is a big part of what he has yet to deal with to get healthy.

Well,,,, kids are coming in asking for "move theater time" Gotta run,

BTW -- good job today!!!

Thanks Bugs,

Have fun with movie night. Talk to you tomorrow hopefully.

Bracha

Hey Bugs,

How was movie night?

Can I ask you a question on how you Plan A'd Drac?

Well, since you asked, I've copied and pasted my thread below. Sorry, I don't know how to do it in the nice way to show it as Bug's Plan A thread,,,,

It's long and sordid - - and as you know, did not bear the fruit which I had hoped for. Yet, maybe you can reap some benefit from it. With a lot of help, I think I did do some good things during Plan A.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

Thanks.... I will read it tomorrow when my eyes are so crossed.

I am planning on getting up in a few hours and driving up to watch him play soccer again. I'm not sure he will be there, but I have to go nonetheless and then if he isn't, I think I will call him and tell him I missed not seeing him play.

What cha think?

Oh wait, it is tomorrow. I mean later on today.

LOL

Hey Bugs,

I am heading back to sleep. I have to look my prettiest in a few hours. Oh, I think I am going to wear the sweatshirt that matches his and NOW FITS.

If I don't see you later on, thank you so much for your time and Have a Merry Christmas. I hope to see you soon,

B

Bracha,

Good luck today! Hope all goes well. I am sure it will, as you are the Queenie, Warrior Goddess!!!

Thanks,

I just got the greatest idea on emailing WH and starting to introduce the negotiation practices.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If nothing else, I will have learned skills for my next relationship.