Ace, yes, there certainly was some serious fallout when LG told you NOT to expose! Folks here know how important it is and wanted to make sure that important message was shared with you.

Dr. Harley did set up an archives section but I don't think it includes EVERYTHING. You can search the archives using key words and the DATE and it will pull up specific segments. I think he charges a small fee to use this service.

How interesting that it was LG's reasoning that prompted me to seek further info and I thanked him for it.

He was a definite asset in all of that turmoil. I truly appreciate him and the other perspectives he offered....and then I did the opposite! (Dr. Harley said it was optional due to the delay....which was LG's argument, too.) But it was what helped me begin to rebuild trust....and my H was in total agreement with exposing by then.

I was not even lurking when I removed myself and all those threads started up unbeknownst to me. I was quite shocked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> when I discovered the 'fall out' I had inadvertantly caused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

But...here's my note to all Newbies....keep seeking, especially if you get 2x4ed and everyone seems to be plastering you. That's how you eventually find true growth.

Ace

Cherished,

I'd like to add

7) Belief in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line, and that he "just fell out of love with me".


I think people believe that love can turn off and on like a light switch, or that there is this "IN love" and "not IN love" emotion that just changes or morphs when OP enters the scene, and that the WS isn't really in control of that. I think a lot of BS's get lost in this belief at first, and don't think they can overcome it. I think it's a very common belief in general.

My comment to my husband was this:

"If you had spent one-half the time talking to me as you did trying to seduce her, there never would have been an affair."

And that is really the truth of it, isn't it? It's all in how the time is spent, and what you DO with that time, WHO you spend it with. Relationships don't happen in a vacuum, they are fed and watered. If you spend your time feeding and watering and caring for a given relationship, it is sure to grow.

The same is true with love.


That sort of busts the myth of "I can't control love". Because we really can put lots of effort into loving one another, and if the seed is there, it WILL grow, given proper care and time.

The Harley methods recognize this, and capitalize on it.

Yes, that was interesting since he was the only one who told you NOT TO EXPOSE, just let it go! And you ended up doing exactly what the rest of us advised and thanked HIM! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I hadn't intended this to be a discussion on whether or not to expose. I'm glad I did finally call OWH. However, my husband had been telling me that this woman had been calling him and it would be rude of him to hang up. He hadn't been telling me he was having an affair. He asked me to respect that he didn't want me to call the OWH because I would betray his confidence.

I felt guilt about not exposing the relationship to the OWH before it became sexual. I felt guilty about going to individual counseling instead of taking us to marriage counseling. I was confused. My intent was not to hide his affair. It was to honor his wishes.

Looking back, I realize that the affair may well have ended earlier or not become sexual if I had picked up the phone and told OWH what I knew -- about the proposition, the hugs, the long intimate lunches....

Still, it is his responsibility and his alone that he had an affair. I did my best. I got advice to not call OWH from the IC. That conflicted with Harley's advice. I now realize that she was trying to teach me a deeper truth, which is that he is responsible for his own behavior. Sooner or later, both of us were going to have to learn that truth.

Cherished

Cherished, I think the important thing is that you learned from your mistake. Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

I agree that we each are responsible for our own behavior. I am responsible when I have information that someone is being destroyed behind their back. I am responsible for warning that person, whether I am the one inflicting the harm or not.

I did not make a mistake when I followed my IC's advice to not call OWH. My mistake was to not see that his openly showing more care for another woman than for me, his swearing at me, his breaking my arm,...my mistake was to not see that this was his behavior and his responsibility. My responsibility was to see it as his behavior and make my own choices.

If anyone wants to read a book on BS Fog, try reading William Shirer's book "Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy." I happened upon a book on Tolstoy's wife when I was rummaging around a used book store, and with my interest piqued, I got this book from the library. Tolstoy wrote what I thought was the best novel ever on marriage, Anna Karenina, and he modeled his own marriage after the marriage in the novel that was described as happy and passionate. After writing Anna Karenina, Tolstoy went through a "spiritual awakening" which apparently was his justification for violating the POJA. Sonya tried to stay in Plan A.

The marriage ended with more drama I have read about here on MB. Leo could not stand her prying into his business and fled while Sonya slept. She followed him. Leo fled again by train and caught pneumonia. He ended up being taken off a train and put in a trainmaster's house and the whole world watched while he died. His wife was kept outside the house until he was unconscious and within hours of death. There is a picture of her peering into the window of the house where her husband was being kept while ill.

After Leo's death, Sonya could not understand how she had descended into hysteria and paranoia. I can. I saw it in myself just six years ago and only nine years into marriage. Imagine enduring a husband who violates the POJA for 48 years!

Cherished

Well, your responsibility was to warn the other victim, the OWH, which you eventually did. It was a mistake to follow the IC's bad advice to not tell the man. It sounds like perhaps you could have done that before it became physical, but chose NOT TO, for very bad reasons. But, that is all water under the bridge, eventually you did the right thing and exposed to the man. Better late than never, I suppose.

I was certain he wasn't having an affair. That's why I didn't call. But the fact is that what this IC told me is true: part of my job as wife is not to make sure my husband is faithful. My husband is responsible for his own behavior just as I am for mine. I lost sight of that in trying to protect him from the pursuit of an immoral woman. What I didn't realize is that he had to protect himself and me -- and he didn't.
Cherished

Of course, and I agree. But it is your job as a human being to tell someone when they are being harmed behind their back. For example, it is not "my job" to make sure my neighbor's bookkeeper doesn't steal from him. But it is my job to tell my neighbor if I knew the bookkeeper had stolen from him. That is just simple common decency.

And in the case of adultery, the other BS needs to be told regardless of the state of the affair. This is pertinent information about their own life and it would be wrong to withhold it.

I did consider that. My husband told me that I was not to meddle in their marriage. It seemed to me that I needed to focus on ours.

This is an issue that came up in my work life. I got a part-time job and the company was openly committing fraud. I'd never seen that before. I raised the issue with my boss and with the other employee on the project. The issue got in the documentation and there it died. A Sr. VP was explaining to account managers "It's illegal, but we do it anyway."

Was I wrong not to go to authorities? I just finished reading a book on business ethics. When a company is corrupt, you do no good by whistle-blowing. You leave. And that's what I did.

With a marriage, I think it is similar. You leave. At minimum, I should have backed away from him and told him how hurt I was. Instead, I ended up with a harassment order from OW. And, looking back, I was close to a nervous breakdown. It's a grace that all of us survived. Two of the children could have been seriously injured or dead because I was so distracted during that period of time -- I remember the dates, 10/25/01 and 5/11/02. Those could have been dates when a child died. Neither was injured. One remembers but doesn't know how serious it was what happened. The other was too young to remember, but her sister remembers. I was so focused on stopping OW that I nearly lost a child -- twice, and I was so focused on my husband that I nearly lost my mind.

Cherished

That all sounds pretty dramatic, Cherished. Thankfully you all lived through it.

thankfully not everyone is of that mindset. I imagine the tobacco industry thrived on that line of thinking.

IMHO... there is a duty to always do the right thing....openly committing fraud or breaking the law is cause for good people to take a stand....same with notifying the other impacted and innocent spouse of the fraud committed on them.

You do the right thing and let those that are in the wrong worry about the consequences...they are not yours to own, nor did you cause them....so it doesn't matter in the business or personal world, all that matters is following the Golden Rule.

Just my 2 cents.

Great point, Mel. And thanks to cathy for posting her thoughts...invaluable as they are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

cathy ~ how long did it take for you to come to the point where you appreciated exposure and what your H had gone through in doing so?

My husband told me he felt relieved when the affair was exposed in part because OW was pressuring him for sexual intercourse and he felt as though he would have to leave his family if he had sex with her.

All through the affair, he brought her up. What triggered my calling back Dr. Harley was his asking me about attending a retirement party at his old department. I asked if OW would be there. He said yes. I asked if he'd talk with her. He said yes because "people know we were friends." That was too much for me. My heart sank. I called Dr. Harley because I wanted to prevent further contact. I thought contact had ended months ago.

After the affair was exposed, Tom told me that I wouldn't have known anything was going on unless he wanted me to. In a way, he wanted me to end the affair. I endured anguish that was just unbelievable because he was telling me not to call. But who knows that could be revisionist history on his part.

Cherished

Cherished,

I have read through this post and wonder..... what is your advice for those who you see as in the 'BS fog'?

Maybe a bullet point of listing. It might make it easier for the newer ones to visualize.

I know many a WS claimed to have liked the exposure....after the anger was unleashed. Not always sure if that's a confession or a decoy being deployed. Time usually tells. Mine said it also but then the fog rolled back in and he went into his WS stance again.

The piece that is hard for many a BS is that they soooo much want to believe the good stuff. In many instances that too is WS babble.

IMHO, knowing the reason for the words, good or bad will give weight as to determining how much trust one should have. Because even the 'good stuff' c/b WS babble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Sad but true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

LG has a vested interest in that arguement Acey.

From a MB standpoint, exposure to the OP's spouse "so long" after the affair has ended is a risk of breaching NC and Dr Harley says it is optional and should be POJA'ed for that reason.

But quite honestly, human decence dictates that it should be done. In my opinion, it's one of the things a WS must do to earn their "F". And I don't see decency and morality as needing a POJA.

So the book suggests employees who become aware of crime and corruption at their work place to just leave that company and close their eyes to the corruption, crime and unethical behavior that’s going on? To just keep silent so that the criminals in that company can steal more money, become more corrupt and destroy more people’s lives with their actions?

More than 4 years ago, my H whistle-blowed about crime and corruption at his place of employment and he went to the local authorities (police) as well. Many people knew about the crime and corruption, but no one else was willing to do something about it out of fear to lose their jobs. Well, unfortunately my H did lose his job and was unemployed for nearly 4 years after that, but he knows he did the good, moral and right thing and eventually justice was served. I'm very proud of my H for that and we came out stronger through this whole ordeal... If my H didn’t whistle-blowed back then, the main person responsible for the crime and corruption would have probably still be in charge of the company and destroyed more people’s lives with his victimization, corruption, fraud, criminal behavior etc. and more people's jobs would have been in danger as a result of that.

A while ago I asked my H if he knew back then what he knows now (e.g. that he would lose his job and be unemployed for 4 years) if he would do the same thing all over again. He said "Yes, I would whistle-blow again, but I would have been much more cautious and do some things differently."

The bottom line is that speaking out about crime and corruption is always the right, decent and moral thing to do and there is nothing unethical about it.

Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to share.

Agree 100%, Suzet. If folks only did the right thing when it was personally expedient, then they could not claim to be ethical. To not report crime and corruption only enables wrongdoing. Nothing virtuous about being an enabler.

Hi BK,

I plan to update my Trials & Smiles recovery thread this week and I'll mention your post (and Mel's comment) there. Cherished has a great thread going here and I'd like to see it continue on BS Fog with the list Orchid suggested.

My suggestion to overcome BS Fog.....quit lurking and start posting on this forum. I lurked for 2-3 weeks .....and was trying to be OW's friend the whole time.....the "BS Fog-ometer" was about as high as it could get.

When I registered, got ignored, got a few responses and then a "why are you asking what you already know?" 2x4, and then thwappped big time regarding delayed exposure.....then da fog began to dissapate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Now I like to be tubed....it means someone reads and cares. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace (I like "Acey" btw....but you're the first guy to call me that!)