I know there's a lot of talk about WS fog, but I have come to realize that there is also BS fog. The BS fog is that the WS fog is not to blame. Instead, the blame can be attributed by the BS to many things, among them:

1) the BS who didn't meet the WS's needs (Of course, the WS could have chosen to divorce or separate instead of cheat, but this fact seems to be missed by the BS)

2) the OP who pursued the WS

3) personality disorders of the WS (WS not to blame for personality disorders like Bipolar Personality Disorder, ADD, etc.)

4) WS's parents (not a good model for marriage, not loving)

5) events of WS's childhood (sexual abuse, etc)

6) circumstances (separation due to job)

People have free will. They can choose their behavior. They are responsible for their behavior.

That only took me five years to figure out. I wasn't responsible for his affair because I didn't call the woman's husband and tell him what I knew -- after my husband told me of the proposition, after he admitted seeing her, after I called Dr. Harley on the radio show and he told me to call the woman's husband, on and on and on. Out of consideration for him, I did not call. In actual fact, exposure does not end an affair. It just helps to clear the WS fog, but the choice to end the affair is still the WS's and the WS's alone. I have felt guilty all these years for choices that were made by my husband, not by me. Now I will focus on choices made by me.

Cherished

P.S. Thanks, Lemonman.

The BS is not responsible for the the WS choice to have an affair but the BS is responsible for the choices they make which enable the affair.

The choice of a BS to NOT expose the affair is a choice which enables the affair to continue under a veil of secrecy. In that sense, the BS has some responsibility for the continuation of the affair via enablement, regardless of the WS choice to end it.


I don't get this. Consideration for whom? The OW's husband? How is not telling him that his W is screwing someone elses H being considerate? I am asking, not condemning. I would like to understand.

In actual fact, exposure does not end an affair.It just helps to clear the WS fog

It was the fatal blow that ended Squids. And it thickened her fog for a while afterwards, so I don't agree with that statement, cherished.

Cherished and BA109,

I completely understand the BS Fog ailment.....still have it to the degree that I am NOT totally indifferent to that OW yet.

I had it so badly before we found MB that I thought that being the OW's friend would deter her from betraying me again if/when my H got weak and contacted her.

Coupled with an MC who said NOT to expose and that we should both have NC with OW.....it gave my WH free reign to dig deeper underground "just to make sure OW was OK".....withdrawal.....unchecked, unbridled, blatant WITHDRAWAL....of which our then-MC knew nothing about.

Get this, we were reading "Not Just Friends" when my WH was trying to be 'just friends....with no more virtual sex'. But it may be what undid that OW's clutches in WH's mind. She lied to WH, too and now he claims she's a worse liar that he was, 'probably is cheating on her H with someone else now.' Time will tell.

I did not call OWH because:

* MC said not to
* Fear he'd come after my WH
* WH did not want me to
* To give OW a chance to fix her M
* To enhance (or so we thought) their chances of staying M'd
* Did not know how to find where he worked and did not want to $pend time/funds to find out

Other reasons I'll think of later.

Six months after intact NC (as far as I knew/know) I registered for MB, got 2x4'd when I mis-quoted something I read on a post by Weaver/BobP/WAT....wrote to MB staff for resources....got a response from Dr. and Mrs. Harley.....called the radio show and exposed to the OPS the following week.

WH earned his "Former" designation a few months later and we've been on the recovery rollercoaster since then...starting in early Feb. 07.

BUT I'm still trying NOT to care about that OW. I'm the idiot who tried to be her friend, sharing chit-chat emails for weeks in late August and again during the holidays until after we exposed just before Valentines Day.

She had the audacity to taunt me, saying "He knows everything, I have nothing to hide." But when I called him, he had no clue. What bothers me at times is that he does not seem to care....or if he did, he never cared enough to request more proof.

My BS fog is dissapating slowly, but I recognize it still has a slight hold on me. When I am totally indifferent to that OW, I will have succeeded.

Ace

Exposure ended my husband's affair THAT VERY DAY and I can point to others where this was the case. Often, it will not end the affair alone, but it can hasten the death of an affair. As Dr. Harley has stated, "Transparency is like chemotherapy."

Melodyland....funny you should post right after me...do you recall tubing me back in January, thinking I was a guy? And I accidently called you by the wrong name? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

We both got really confused, then figured things out but I removed myself from MB posting for 2 weeks (Jan. 21 to Feb. 5) to seek clarity, eventually on Dr. Harley's radio show. And then we exposed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for caring....you helped change my life and our M.

Ace

Ace, so glad it all worked out for the best! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am surprised that "mid-life crisis" did not make the BS FOG list. I have no idea what a "mid life crisis" is and how it is relevant to anything, but I hear it used alot!

The first kiss was 9/11/01. I get to remember it every year. I did not know there was a kiss, but I was upset about the relationship.

I emailed Harley's radio show and was told on 10/1/01 to call the woman's husband. I played a tape of the radio show to my husband and he was upset. Out of consideration for my husband, who did not want me to call and betray his trust in telling the OW's husband what my husband had confided to me, I did not call.

I called Harley's radio show on 4/22/02 and was told again to call the husband. This time I did.

The husband got out of his wife that she had been having an affair and told him on 5/4/02. He told me.

That ended the affair.

EXCEPT IT DIDN'T. She still tried to get back with my husband but he chose not to continue it.

In the end, it is still the WS who ends the affair. The BS does not end the affair by exposure, only gives the WS more incentive to end the affair.

Last year, my MIL said to me that, when she found out about the affair, she blamed me. I chucked and said "and I blamed OW". She then said "No, no, no" and I replied "until I realized that Tom is responsible for Tom's behavior."

I don't disagree with Harley's advice to expose the affair. It's just that exposure does not mean end. It is still up to the WS to end the affair.

Cherished

There appear to be exceptions to every rule.

In late January, 07, Dr. Harley suggested I send the tape of my radio show phone call to OW and tell her that if she did not tell her H about their A within a week, that I would tell him.

That's when she taunted me so I called her H the next day AND mailed the proof package to his office. (My call was partially to confirm that HE---not an assistant---would open mail marked 'personal'.)

Does MB suggest giving the OP time to spin the exposure story? Absolutely not. But my exception, according to Dr. Harley was because the affair was (as far as we knew) over.....NC had been intact for 6 months.....exposure was optional, but the right thing to do. PLUS it was my missing link needed for me to start rebuilding trust.

What did my H say about all this? "Whatever it take for you to heal is what I want." Mrs. Harley said that his attitude was a good sign.

The beauty of MB, or at least one of many beauties of MB, is this forum. Varied opinions and experiences (with MB principles) create a rich environment that helps with all kinds of marriagebuilding, regardless of the specifics involved.

Thanks,

Ace

You do realize now that there was nothing "considerate" about helping your H hide his affair from his victim? Nor is it a sign of "trustworthiness" to help someone hide their crime. Rather, that is a sign of ENABLING. Helping someone hide their crime is not an act of love. It is a very dysfunctional trait that helps no one, least of all a marriage. When you love someone, you don't help them be a coward and a cheat, you help them become a man.

Cherished, if your child steals money are you going to help him hide his crime "out of consideration" for him so that you won't "betray his trust?"

Well, that is hairsplitting, but no one has ever said otherwise. However, exposure is often the thing that motivates the WS to end the affair. Facing consequences is often the event that motivates one to stop their wrongdoing.

Here is how I see it, Ace. There are no rules, but there are pretty hard and fast principles, when used will achieve the best outcome. And those principles will be applied in different ways to different situations and most everyone will have different opinions about HOW it is to be applied.

The trouble comes in when folks use differing advice to try to manipulate the principles to avoid conflict. This is quite common with someone who is scared.

I remember hearing your call to Dr. Harley and thought it was a novel approach. That being said, I can't count the times a forewarned OP or WS pre-empted exposure and spun the story, so I think it is good to warn folks about that here.

I regret not following Dr. Harley's advice on 10/1/01 to tell the OWH what I knew, although I did not think there was an affair going on. I thought my H was recovering from an EA. However, I no longer feel guilty. I was trying to follow the POJA and not do what he didn't want me to do.

Dr. Harley once called exposure like sunlight on mold.

Cherished

Exposing my affair to the OMW was the best thing my husband ever did to help our marriage. I don't know where it would have gone if he had not exposed. The affair had "officially" ended, but we were still communicating and talking to each other about how we're trying to "fix" our marriages. What a load of crap!

Exposure was the kiss of death to my affair! In fact, I need to thank my husband for his bravery (he is EXTREMELY non-confrontational and I would have put heavy odds against his ever calling the OMW) and insistence on exposure that helped put our marriage back together.

Edited to add: I begged and pleaded, threatened, bribed and did basically anything I could think of to prevent him from exposure. I swore that if he told OMW that it would be the end of us and there would be no hope for reconciliation. I'm glad he stepped up and had the b*lls to do what needed to be done, regardless of what I said...he knew that we couldn't fix our relationship unless he exposed.

cathy demonstrates what I have said in the past: show me a FWS who resents exposure to his victim and I will show you an UNRECOVERED WS. Every FWS who appreciates exposure and the fact that their victim knows always has the markings of a truly recovered person. Cathy clearly belongs in the latter category. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ya know, POJA is a great marriage building tool, but I don't think it should be utilized when determining whether or not to expose. In fact, I don't think the WS should have any say in the matter. JMO.

I don't think it is being considerate of a WS not to expose against their wishes. You can call it that. I would call it enabling...whether the BS thinks the affair is over or not. Thinking it is considerate is BS fog.

I hope this isn't going to be one of those threads denouncing the effectiveness of exposure. That is truly a lost cause.

Crap indeed. The A cannot die if there is still contact. Your post reads like someone who 'gets it'.

Mel,


Scared, I was petrified. Especially since I'd only been on MB for 7 days when I got tubed and LG came to my defense.....everyone started duking it out with him and I slipped out the back (removed myself from responding) and quietly sent a "request for resources on delayed exposure to OPS" to the mods.

I was even more scared when Dr. Harley HIMSELF (I questioned his identity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) answered and suggested I call the radio show, which we did Jan. 31. How do we access archived radio shows...is it even possible?

I only wish I had found MB and exposed after D-Day #1. I'm sure I would have fit into your latter category above, too....and avoided D-Days 2,3,& 4.

Oh well....just look how much character I've built up now, having endured all this garbage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> NOT!

But I own it now (thanks LA) so we'll build from here and try to pay it forward when these dastardly triggers quit trippin' me up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mel....in total agreement with you on exposure.

Ace

Ace, yes, there certainly was some serious fallout when LG told you NOT to expose! Folks here know how important it is and wanted to make sure that important message was shared with you.

Dr. Harley did set up an archives section but I don't think it includes EVERYTHING. You can search the archives using key words and the DATE and it will pull up specific segments. I think he charges a small fee to use this service.

How interesting that it was LG's reasoning that prompted me to seek further info and I thanked him for it.

He was a definite asset in all of that turmoil. I truly appreciate him and the other perspectives he offered....and then I did the opposite! (Dr. Harley said it was optional due to the delay....which was LG's argument, too.) But it was what helped me begin to rebuild trust....and my H was in total agreement with exposing by then.

I was not even lurking when I removed myself and all those threads started up unbeknownst to me. I was quite shocked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> when I discovered the 'fall out' I had inadvertantly caused. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

But...here's my note to all Newbies....keep seeking, especially if you get 2x4ed and everyone seems to be plastering you. That's how you eventually find true growth.

Ace

Cherished,

I'd like to add

7) Belief in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line, and that he "just fell out of love with me".


I think people believe that love can turn off and on like a light switch, or that there is this "IN love" and "not IN love" emotion that just changes or morphs when OP enters the scene, and that the WS isn't really in control of that. I think a lot of BS's get lost in this belief at first, and don't think they can overcome it. I think it's a very common belief in general.

My comment to my husband was this:

"If you had spent one-half the time talking to me as you did trying to seduce her, there never would have been an affair."

And that is really the truth of it, isn't it? It's all in how the time is spent, and what you DO with that time, WHO you spend it with. Relationships don't happen in a vacuum, they are fed and watered. If you spend your time feeding and watering and caring for a given relationship, it is sure to grow.

The same is true with love.


That sort of busts the myth of "I can't control love". Because we really can put lots of effort into loving one another, and if the seed is there, it WILL grow, given proper care and time.

The Harley methods recognize this, and capitalize on it.

Yes, that was interesting since he was the only one who told you NOT TO EXPOSE, just let it go! And you ended up doing exactly what the rest of us advised and thanked HIM! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I hadn't intended this to be a discussion on whether or not to expose. I'm glad I did finally call OWH. However, my husband had been telling me that this woman had been calling him and it would be rude of him to hang up. He hadn't been telling me he was having an affair. He asked me to respect that he didn't want me to call the OWH because I would betray his confidence.

I felt guilt about not exposing the relationship to the OWH before it became sexual. I felt guilty about going to individual counseling instead of taking us to marriage counseling. I was confused. My intent was not to hide his affair. It was to honor his wishes.

Looking back, I realize that the affair may well have ended earlier or not become sexual if I had picked up the phone and told OWH what I knew -- about the proposition, the hugs, the long intimate lunches....

Still, it is his responsibility and his alone that he had an affair. I did my best. I got advice to not call OWH from the IC. That conflicted with Harley's advice. I now realize that she was trying to teach me a deeper truth, which is that he is responsible for his own behavior. Sooner or later, both of us were going to have to learn that truth.

Cherished

Cherished, I think the important thing is that you learned from your mistake. Hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it?

I agree that we each are responsible for our own behavior. I am responsible when I have information that someone is being destroyed behind their back. I am responsible for warning that person, whether I am the one inflicting the harm or not.

I did not make a mistake when I followed my IC's advice to not call OWH. My mistake was to not see that his openly showing more care for another woman than for me, his swearing at me, his breaking my arm,...my mistake was to not see that this was his behavior and his responsibility. My responsibility was to see it as his behavior and make my own choices.

If anyone wants to read a book on BS Fog, try reading William Shirer's book "Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy." I happened upon a book on Tolstoy's wife when I was rummaging around a used book store, and with my interest piqued, I got this book from the library. Tolstoy wrote what I thought was the best novel ever on marriage, Anna Karenina, and he modeled his own marriage after the marriage in the novel that was described as happy and passionate. After writing Anna Karenina, Tolstoy went through a "spiritual awakening" which apparently was his justification for violating the POJA. Sonya tried to stay in Plan A.

The marriage ended with more drama I have read about here on MB. Leo could not stand her prying into his business and fled while Sonya slept. She followed him. Leo fled again by train and caught pneumonia. He ended up being taken off a train and put in a trainmaster's house and the whole world watched while he died. His wife was kept outside the house until he was unconscious and within hours of death. There is a picture of her peering into the window of the house where her husband was being kept while ill.

After Leo's death, Sonya could not understand how she had descended into hysteria and paranoia. I can. I saw it in myself just six years ago and only nine years into marriage. Imagine enduring a husband who violates the POJA for 48 years!

Cherished

Well, your responsibility was to warn the other victim, the OWH, which you eventually did. It was a mistake to follow the IC's bad advice to not tell the man. It sounds like perhaps you could have done that before it became physical, but chose NOT TO, for very bad reasons. But, that is all water under the bridge, eventually you did the right thing and exposed to the man. Better late than never, I suppose.

I was certain he wasn't having an affair. That's why I didn't call. But the fact is that what this IC told me is true: part of my job as wife is not to make sure my husband is faithful. My husband is responsible for his own behavior just as I am for mine. I lost sight of that in trying to protect him from the pursuit of an immoral woman. What I didn't realize is that he had to protect himself and me -- and he didn't.
Cherished

Of course, and I agree. But it is your job as a human being to tell someone when they are being harmed behind their back. For example, it is not "my job" to make sure my neighbor's bookkeeper doesn't steal from him. But it is my job to tell my neighbor if I knew the bookkeeper had stolen from him. That is just simple common decency.

And in the case of adultery, the other BS needs to be told regardless of the state of the affair. This is pertinent information about their own life and it would be wrong to withhold it.

I did consider that. My husband told me that I was not to meddle in their marriage. It seemed to me that I needed to focus on ours.

This is an issue that came up in my work life. I got a part-time job and the company was openly committing fraud. I'd never seen that before. I raised the issue with my boss and with the other employee on the project. The issue got in the documentation and there it died. A Sr. VP was explaining to account managers "It's illegal, but we do it anyway."

Was I wrong not to go to authorities? I just finished reading a book on business ethics. When a company is corrupt, you do no good by whistle-blowing. You leave. And that's what I did.

With a marriage, I think it is similar. You leave. At minimum, I should have backed away from him and told him how hurt I was. Instead, I ended up with a harassment order from OW. And, looking back, I was close to a nervous breakdown. It's a grace that all of us survived. Two of the children could have been seriously injured or dead because I was so distracted during that period of time -- I remember the dates, 10/25/01 and 5/11/02. Those could have been dates when a child died. Neither was injured. One remembers but doesn't know how serious it was what happened. The other was too young to remember, but her sister remembers. I was so focused on stopping OW that I nearly lost a child -- twice, and I was so focused on my husband that I nearly lost my mind.

Cherished

That all sounds pretty dramatic, Cherished. Thankfully you all lived through it.

thankfully not everyone is of that mindset. I imagine the tobacco industry thrived on that line of thinking.

IMHO... there is a duty to always do the right thing....openly committing fraud or breaking the law is cause for good people to take a stand....same with notifying the other impacted and innocent spouse of the fraud committed on them.

You do the right thing and let those that are in the wrong worry about the consequences...they are not yours to own, nor did you cause them....so it doesn't matter in the business or personal world, all that matters is following the Golden Rule.

Just my 2 cents.

Great point, Mel. And thanks to cathy for posting her thoughts...invaluable as they are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

cathy ~ how long did it take for you to come to the point where you appreciated exposure and what your H had gone through in doing so?

My husband told me he felt relieved when the affair was exposed in part because OW was pressuring him for sexual intercourse and he felt as though he would have to leave his family if he had sex with her.

All through the affair, he brought her up. What triggered my calling back Dr. Harley was his asking me about attending a retirement party at his old department. I asked if OW would be there. He said yes. I asked if he'd talk with her. He said yes because "people know we were friends." That was too much for me. My heart sank. I called Dr. Harley because I wanted to prevent further contact. I thought contact had ended months ago.

After the affair was exposed, Tom told me that I wouldn't have known anything was going on unless he wanted me to. In a way, he wanted me to end the affair. I endured anguish that was just unbelievable because he was telling me not to call. But who knows that could be revisionist history on his part.

Cherished

Cherished,

I have read through this post and wonder..... what is your advice for those who you see as in the 'BS fog'?

Maybe a bullet point of listing. It might make it easier for the newer ones to visualize.

I know many a WS claimed to have liked the exposure....after the anger was unleashed. Not always sure if that's a confession or a decoy being deployed. Time usually tells. Mine said it also but then the fog rolled back in and he went into his WS stance again.

The piece that is hard for many a BS is that they soooo much want to believe the good stuff. In many instances that too is WS babble.

IMHO, knowing the reason for the words, good or bad will give weight as to determining how much trust one should have. Because even the 'good stuff' c/b WS babble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Sad but true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

LG has a vested interest in that arguement Acey.

From a MB standpoint, exposure to the OP's spouse "so long" after the affair has ended is a risk of breaching NC and Dr Harley says it is optional and should be POJA'ed for that reason.

But quite honestly, human decence dictates that it should be done. In my opinion, it's one of the things a WS must do to earn their "F". And I don't see decency and morality as needing a POJA.

So the book suggests employees who become aware of crime and corruption at their work place to just leave that company and close their eyes to the corruption, crime and unethical behavior that’s going on? To just keep silent so that the criminals in that company can steal more money, become more corrupt and destroy more people’s lives with their actions?

More than 4 years ago, my H whistle-blowed about crime and corruption at his place of employment and he went to the local authorities (police) as well. Many people knew about the crime and corruption, but no one else was willing to do something about it out of fear to lose their jobs. Well, unfortunately my H did lose his job and was unemployed for nearly 4 years after that, but he knows he did the good, moral and right thing and eventually justice was served. I'm very proud of my H for that and we came out stronger through this whole ordeal... If my H didn’t whistle-blowed back then, the main person responsible for the crime and corruption would have probably still be in charge of the company and destroyed more people’s lives with his victimization, corruption, fraud, criminal behavior etc. and more people's jobs would have been in danger as a result of that.

A while ago I asked my H if he knew back then what he knows now (e.g. that he would lose his job and be unemployed for 4 years) if he would do the same thing all over again. He said "Yes, I would whistle-blow again, but I would have been much more cautious and do some things differently."

The bottom line is that speaking out about crime and corruption is always the right, decent and moral thing to do and there is nothing unethical about it.

Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to share.

Agree 100%, Suzet. If folks only did the right thing when it was personally expedient, then they could not claim to be ethical. To not report crime and corruption only enables wrongdoing. Nothing virtuous about being an enabler.

Hi BK,

I plan to update my Trials & Smiles recovery thread this week and I'll mention your post (and Mel's comment) there. Cherished has a great thread going here and I'd like to see it continue on BS Fog with the list Orchid suggested.

My suggestion to overcome BS Fog.....quit lurking and start posting on this forum. I lurked for 2-3 weeks .....and was trying to be OW's friend the whole time.....the "BS Fog-ometer" was about as high as it could get.

When I registered, got ignored, got a few responses and then a "why are you asking what you already know?" 2x4, and then thwappped big time regarding delayed exposure.....then da fog began to dissapate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Now I like to be tubed....it means someone reads and cares. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ace (I like "Acey" btw....but you're the first guy to call me that!)

What the company was doing was out and out fraud, and no one seemed to think that was a problem. It seemed to me that it was like a person who is openly having an affair. Lots of people have affairs. Not a lot of people are blatant about it.

I really struggled about what to do. I left. It seems to me that a company like that is like a person who cheats on an expense account. It never stops, and sooner or later it gets bigger. But I did struggle with the decision. I read a book on ethics in which both approaches (leaving and whistle-blowing) were discussed but mostly what was discussed is how often people just stay because their mortgage payment is dependent on their job.

What tipped me to not exposing fraud was an article in the Wall Street Journal about a 20-something employee of a healthcare organization who collected 10,000+ email addresses of employees over the course of his employment and then did a broadcast email about problems with a system that he considered to be unethical. Was it unethical or just inefficient? What the company was doing -- was it fraud, or was this person saying it was fraud? I asked my husband and sister-in-law, both of whom work in healthcare, and they were astonished. But still... Was what they were doing illegal? I didn't know for sure. I just knew it was good to get away from it.

As for exposure of the affair, I regret having not exposed. The reason why is that, in the months between the two times I contacted Harley's radio show, I was so upset that it was a good thing a child didn't die -- from my distraction. One fell down 12 steps onto concrete when she was 10 months old. Can you imagine? Can you imagine seeing your baby crawling at the bottom of 12 steps? I took her to the doctor and he examined her thoroughly. You cannot imagine my relief when he said "She's giggling. That's a good sign." He told me she could have suffered permanent brain damage. I was responsible for four young children (all under 7) and I was distracted by his relationship with this woman.

And my husband broke my arm, of course. I was lucky to have no problems other than a scar on my forearm but I was in a cast for four months and had three surgeries.

But I do think the IC was correct to not have me expose. She met my husband. Harley did not. She saw a complete lack of regard for my feelings. She wanted me to understand that he was in charge of his life, and I was in charge of my life. She wanted me to be objective in seeing a lack of care or compassion for me with regard to his relationship with this woman (which I did not think was an affair and which he said was over.)

What advice would I give for someone in BS fog? Well, I tried a lot of things that sure haven't worked and I'm not sure if anything will work to repair our marriage.

What I would recommend first is that the person accept a few facts:

1. There is nothing you have done or could ever do to deserve infidelity. Separation, yes. Divorce, yes. But not infidelity.

2. You may have missed some things in not realizing there was an affair going on or in not exposing what you suspected or in not spying. You may have believed that love means trust. The fact is that you are not responsible for your spouse's behavior. Your spouse is.

3. Your job is to care for your spouse. Ask what you could do to improve life for your spouse and figoure out what you could do that would be positive for your spouse and for you. Currently, that is what I am doing. My husband, for example, doesn't like my leaving keys around so I cannot find them. I put a hook up in the entryway closet. Good for him. Good for me. I am working on meeting his needs.

4. Respect your own feelings. Don't be intimate if you don't feel comfortable. Don't agree to what you don't want. And that includes meeting the need for SF. If he's having an affair, he doesn't respect your feelings. You need to ask yourself why.

Cherished

cherished, whether you struggled or not, you made a bad decision and have only enabled this company to continue its corruption. Corruption and fraud should be exposed so it can be stopped. There is always a victim somehere along the line, so saying that it might have jeopardized someone's job is no excuse to help hide it. Corruption supercedes anyone's personal inconvenience.

Hopefully, you aren't implying that you have to read a book on "ethics" to know right from wrong? Right and wrong is right and wrong regardless of how personally convenient it is to take action. One can't claim to have principles if they only act on them when it is convenient.


I am not sure what any of this has to do with exposing or not. Your IC gave you bad advice and sounds like a kook. You were upset because of the affair. People expose every day, Cherished, their children are not killed by it so this is a false dichotomy you are making. Rather, exposure gives the BS a feeling of STRENGTH and virtue for having done the right thing. Telling your H's other victim was the right thing to do, Cherished, and one does not just do the right thing when it is personally expediant. That is not the behavior of a principled person.

Edited because I must have lost my mind!

**thud**

you stole dat from me, you silly Kansan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What knowledge I had was limited. I was in a meeting with a Sr VP in which he said "it's illegal, but we do it anyway." I had met with a tech support person who explained why claims weren't resubmitted. I had a copy of a contract in which a term was used which, when looked up on the Internet, meant fraud. I raised the question, was told it was the business line's issue not ours, and got myself off the project as quickly as possible. I thought I could stay in the company but not on that project. It still didn't sit well with me. A new head of compliance was announced, and I thought about emailing him. But I was a part-time employee -- did I know what was going on, or not? The only way I could get more information was to stay on the project and in the company. I didn't want to stay around. It just smelled bad.

I see an analogy with exposing an affair. Maybe some WS's first exhibit selfish behavior when they start an affair, but mine sure didn't. The swearing, the disregard, the contempt... started on our wedding night, and the affair was eight years into the marriage. I should have left and not hung around to be worried about an affair.

Can you believe it? He pushed on my forehead so hard 10 years ago -- 3 years before the affair -- that a lump developed. Did I go to the police? Did I go to a doctor? No. I went to a hairdresser and got bangs cut. Last week, I had an MRI for my head, and I will have surgery next month to remove the lump. Can you believe it?

I was responsible for four little children. The youngest was in 2nd grade when my husband had his affair, and the baby was -- a baby. The day of the proposition was the day I called the pediatrician to ask about colic, and he said the height of colic was 7 weeks. She was 7 weeks old on that day.

Didn't I have enough on my hands to not be calling OW and peppering my H with questions about what had happened between them? And I was driven mad with jealosy. "She's calling me and it would be rude of me to hang up." "I told her you felt threatened, and she said you had reason to be." "She told me she felt passion for me."

Did I really need exposure? I needed to get out of there to save my sanity.

One indicator for an unethical company, according to the book "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse" is that there is a new CFO every year. How would you feel if you were hired into a company as CFO and the books smelled?

What are the indicators for a spouse who is going to get in the position to have an affair? In my opinion, it is lack of desire to spend time with the spouse and willingness to violate the POJA.

This is a difficult subject for me, and I did struggle about what to do with the company but, more importantly, with my husband. With the company, I didn't stay around to gather evidence. I left. It smelled. I wish I'd gotten away from my husband long before he met the OW because he was very nasty towards me. In fact, once I told him I felt bad because I wanted to feel cherished. He scoffed. He scoffed. "That's ridiculous."

Was it really necessary to wait a few years after that to call OWH to find out that my husband was not being considerate towards me? I didn't need to find out about a secret second life. The way he treated me to my face -- literally disfiguring me -- should have been enough of a clue.

Thud is right.

Cherished

It probably took me about 3 days to get over being mad at my husband...but only because I realized right then and there (while I was still deep in the fog) that the OM had no intention of leaving his wife...and he was mad at ME because I couldn't control my husband!! ***Oh, the fog was so thick back then!!!***

It took about another 4 months until the reality of everything that I had done truly began to set in. I had had no contact at all and I was through withdrawal and looked in the mirror each day in complete disgust of what I had become and what I had done to my husband.

It was then that I realized the "risk" that my husband took in exposing the affair. He didn't know if I would seriously leave him or not, but he knew what needed to be done. I truly meant every word I said at the time when I threatened him that if he exposed I would never forgive him. (that sounds so completely ridiculous now!!!!!...I wouldn't forgive him? what a warped sense of thinking)

He did what he needed to do, he stepped up and protected me from myself, and let my victim (OMW) know that she had been equally victimized as he was. I thank God he did what he did, because I can't imagine how much more damage I would have done if he hadn't exposed.

When my husband said when I asked "are you seeing someone" because he refused to see me or hardly talk to me for 2 mos and was always angry and I had no idea why except he would say I should not have moved out and he answered "yes, I have moved on- I think I almost quit breathing." But being the confrontational type person I am I drove to her place the next day (after friends sat with me thru the night listening to me wail) and told her she better tell him to get his butt over as I was not leaving her yard until he did, she told him, I screamed at her, met him at another setting, he was too drunk to be driving so screaming at him did not do much good, waited the next day for him to be sober and said make a choice and he called her next day and went to see her and said he still loved me and it was over. It was really already over in his mind, but why did he not end it before he told me and hurt me like that, guess it would have hurt the same either way as a friend was about to tell me at about the same time. I just could have never let it go and said "whatever"-I guess the passive-agg type have to be told. I'm still searching for the "why"? As I posted on another one, he is to write down the whys for the counselor and will be interesting to hear it told to a third party in front of me.

Cherished,

To your original question. Yes there is a BS fog.

Lets face it when we find out about or spouses affair it is devestating.

What are usually the first things out of a waywards mouth after D Day. Justifications and revision of history.

As my head was spinning seven different ways to sunday my wonderful wife proceeds to give me all of my short comings and all of the reasons she had the affair.

Me not being in a sound state of mind cannot think clearly. I feel like my world caved in around me and it was hard to breath. I struggled to take every breath. My mind was an enemy in my own head.

I wanted to turn it off. Putting logical thoughts together was nearly impossible.

I loved my wife more then the world I cherished her, or thought I did.

I know she wouldn't have betrayed me unless she was pushed to it. She was to good of a person.

So I believed it was me. She was above that.

As my mind started working again I realized a few things, most were unimportant.

Finally I realized there is no reason or justification for an affair.

If I was really bad enough to drive you to an affair you should have left.

Since you didn't you had only one other option go to an MC.

Talk with me. Heck give me an ultimatum do whatever, but do not sleep with another man.

frognomore,
THAT is the core of BS fog. It wasn't the fault of the WS. I blamed OW for chasing after my H, but heck -- he could have hung up the phone, not gotten in her car, not kissed her, etc.

The best way to clear the BS fog is to think: I may have deserved divorce or separation, but I never deserved infidelity. During the affair, my husband told me he would never leave me. After the affair was exposed, I realized he'd left without leaving.
Cherished

Cherised, I agree with Mel.

When my H reported the crime and corruption to the authorities, our mortgage payment was dependent on his job too. He knew his job would probably be at risk and that he would find it difficult to get another job because of economical & political issues in my country (that’s why my H was unemployed for nearly 4 years after his unfair dismissal), but my H was outraged by the crime & corruption, sick and tired of people up in management (and others) who were too afraid & coward to do anything about it. My H also couldn’t take the unfair treatment and victimization of other innocent employees in the company any longer (my H was chairperson of the labor union and all these things were reported to him) and decided to take the matter in his own hands and to do the right, decent and moral thing.

Cherised, I can tell you that for the past 4 years while my H was unable to find another job and while his unfair dismissal court case was dragged out, we went through a VERY difficult time financially and emotionally (my income was not enough to help us through with the basics each month)…but in spite of that, the good Lord still looked after us, made provision and helped us to survive in a miraculous way…He gave us the strength to get through this ordeal and put helping & caring people (“angels”) in our way during that time… And eventually in the end, justice was served and everything worked out for the good (as promised in the Bible) because my H trusted God and has done what needed to be done in spite of his personal fears & inconvenience.

Cherised, my H never thought he would actually get dismissed because he acted very cautious and "under cover" with the police, but unfortunately someone he trusted and who was suppose to be my H’s friend (someone at the same company) "split" on him and this person also witnessed falsely against my H to protect his OWN job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> This is why my H said to me that if he could do it all over again, he would whistle-blow again, but would be much more careful who he confided in and do some things very differently.

Suzet,
I'm not saying your husband did the wrong thing, but what I am saying is that I was in a different position and didn't have access to all the facts. Look at the timing of your husband's EA. He was in a corrupt company, he stayed, and he developed an EA.

One thing interesting about this book I read (called "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse") is that it said that "adultery is a room silencer." Adultery, especially on the part of the CFO or CEO, correlates with "cooking the books." The book recommended the movie Changing Lanes. In the movie, a wife tells her husband she knows he has cheated on her, tells him that her father had a mistress for 20 years, and then says that her mother accepted her father's because it would be hypocritical to be upset about his cheating on her when his cheating at work is what brought her the wealthy lifestyle she enjoys. The wife had this conversation with her husband because she wanted him to cheat at work to continue the lifestyle she enjoyed.

I didn't want to be corrupted by my work. I got out. I'm not saying it was the right thing for me to do or the wrong thing for me to do. What I'm saying is that I no longer enjoyed going to work, even though I loved what I did. It simply wasn't worth exposing myself to something that smelled bad.

Cherished

Cherised, I am the one who had an EA, not my H. My H has never been unfaithful to me.

It was not the company that was corrupt, it was certain people in the company who were corrupt, criminal and without any morals and conscience… I still work at the same company my H was dismissed from and the corruption at the company at the time had nothing to do with my EA. My EA developed long before that.

The reality is that emotional infidelity (or any type of infidelity) can develop at ANY workplace if people don’t protect their weaknesses/vulnerabilities and keep strong & healthy boundaries in place with the opposite sex. For this reason, A’s can even develop between church members and other places where no corruption/crime is taking place.

How sad… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I can’t believe some people have such totally skewed & wrong values. This woman is just as selfish and corrupt as her H.

Cherised, I understand… But the right thing for you to do after you have left that company would be to report to the authorities to investigate the matter. You had nothing to lose or fear because you've already left the company and your job.

JMO.

Cherised, I’ve talked a lot about the exposure of crime and corruption at work, so I will turn to the thread topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’ve read through your BS fog list and some of those applied to my H and still applies in a way:

My H always believed and still believes that my childhood issues (physical and sexual abuse including my father’s bad example) and mental disorders (OCD with associated depression and anxiety) were the main things that contributed towards my emotional infidelity and “weakness” for FOM. He also believes that the FOM pursued me and tried to “lure” me into in A. And although my EA (and resumption of EA last year) was very painful for my H, he did not and still don’t view it as a “real” A because of the fact that I stopped it before it could develop into a full blown EA and especially PA. The first main boundary of inappropriate friendship into EA was crossed last year during the resumption when we confessed past feelings of "love" towards each other. Before those confessions, I realized I had a "beginning-stage EA" but my H always viewed it as "inappropriate behavior" and not "EA". I used to view it the same way, but my opinions changed as I studied this website and other articles/materials.

Anyway, my EA was never exposed to OMW. My H did not want it exposed for his own reasons and circumstances at the time. I did not expose because my H did not agree to it and would feel betrayed and disrespected if done against his will. Some people felt I must have exposed in spite of that and that I'm still a WW and in a "fog" because of that, but I guess that is a matter of different opinions...

I recently had a discussion with my H about it again and he is still against the exposure. He feels too much time has passed now and that exposure will be too radical for something that was not a “real” A (in his view). I must honestly tell you that I wish my H HAD exposed to OMW last year – I would have PREFERRED that…because I know it was WRONG not to expose to her and this issue still bothers me from time to time.

You ignore your conscience at your peril Suzet.

Suxet,

I don't think exposure is a black and white issue. I did not expose because my husband didn't want me meddling in his friend's marriage -- it was up to her to tell her husband.

With your husband, he may have his own reasons for not wanting exposure of your EA.

I just read a book on Leo and Sonya Tolstoy's marriage called Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy. In Harley's parlance, Leo violated the POJA which led to his wife trying to control him, her increasing hysteria, and his leaving the house and taking trains. He caught pneumonia and died. I bring this up because Leo thought he was doing what was right and necessary. He was giving away copyrights to his writings and was trying to help the peasants whose life was grim. There had been a famine in which an estimated 400,000 peasants died. His wife didn't want him to give away copyrights because that was the income for them -- they had had 13 children together, some of them still living at home. She was hysterical and extreme in her description that her children would "eat black bread."

Tolstoy died in 1910 and the peasant uprising called the Russian Revolution was in 1917. He was right about the problems of the poor but violated the POJA in how he tried to address the issue.

The POJA does not allow YOU to violate your own moral code. What it does is prevent you from doing what is negative for the other. I think you err on the side of caution with the POJA. You don't do unless both agree.

In the end, I don't think it is a morally indefensible position for you to say nothing when your husband doesn't want you to say anything.

It's like my exposure of what appeared to be fraud at work. Was it fraud? I didn't know enough to be sure, and I didn't want to hang around, getting paid, when what I was trying to do was get away from it.

In your husband's view, if you have told him the whole truth, it was not much. I read a book called "Not Just Friends." A man's view of what an affair is appears to differ from what a woman's view is. Men typically don't think they are having an affair unless there is sexual intercourse. Women see it as an affair long before that, usually with the first kiss. My husband never had intercourse, and he told me that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong. Later he said he thought he was fooling everyone, and the only person he was fooling (meaning deceiving) was himself. I hope this helps. Care for your husband. One thing Sonya Tolstoy said about her husband was he loved all humanity and hated his wife.

Cherished

WRONG... DEAD WRONG.

Anyone that does not expose an affair to a victimized spouse is complicit in the harm done to that person. You say it is not a black and white issue...I say, there are few issues on this planet that are more "black & white."



You should have reported it and let the authorities decide what crimes have been committed.

There seems to be a moral disconnect some where in your thinking. Are you able to see that?

Try reading the book I read, "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse." What was surprising to me is that it doesn't appear to be black and white to people who are involved. It wasn't clear to me that I should expose to a husband that his wife had said "Where is this friendship going?" What did that mean?

Affairs are along a continuum. It clearly is an affair if there is sexual intercourse. I would have considered a kiss on the lips to be an affair. I would have called if I had known that. I did not.

Cherished

and since you seem to be moved by Tolstoy...as you bring him up often...try this quote from him on for size...

"Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold"

That is a sad excuse to not expose, Cherished. It was up to whomever knew the truth to tell the man and you can't blameshift your failure to do so on your husband. Your H's opinion about exposing his crime to his victim is a little irrelevent, and self serving, isn't it? Your H is the LAST PERSON qualified to decide what is good for the OW's marriage. We don't let the rapist decide what is best for his victim. Your WS wasn't worried at all about "meddling" in his lovers marriage, as evidenced by his own "meddling," he was worried about getting busted so he could resume the affair - which he DID. So, saying that he "didn't want me meddling" is not a legitimate excuse.

There is no imaginary standard that dictates that only the victimizer can tell the victim. Do we say that only the EMBEZZLER can tell the embezzlement victim that money has been stolen? Otherwise, they are not told? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Of course not, that would be silly because yours is an abitrary standard that makes no sense.

It doesn't appear to be "black and white" in the authors PERSONAL OPINION. They are not the arbiters of morality, GOD IS.

Cherished, lets take your principles and apply them to a different situation.

Lets say that I knew that your bookkeeper was embezzling money from you. She stole thousands of dollars and left the country. You found out I KNEW this was going on and confronted me:

Cherished: "why didn't you tell me my bookkeeper was robbing me blind???"

Mel: "well, the bookkeeper told me that I shouldn't "meddle" in your life.

Then I read a book called "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse." What was surprising to me is that it doesn't appear to be black and white to people who are involved. It wasn't clear to me that I should expose to theft to you.

These things are just not black and white, after all."

Have you ever heard the saying that "evil thrives when good men stand silent?" You have FIRST HAND knowledge of the truth of this statement, yet you refuse to see it.

I didn't know there was an affair. Had I known, I would have called. As it was, I felt guilty for calling. I called because my husband said he would like to attend a party at his old department. I thought I was making a pre-emptive strike to keep them from reforming what seemed to me to be an inappropriate relationship.

As for the company, I didn't know if there was fraud. I left.

With my husband, my point is that it should not have taken what I went through for me to call the woman's husband. I should have left him long before he even met this woman.

And now? What do I do now? Do I go to authorities about this company when what I have is nothing more than two people saying things that seemed to indicate to me that this company was fraudulent in its practices?

The ethics book talked about a "Yeehaw Culture" and that's what it was. Sooner or later, it will catch up to them. In the few months I was there, the turnover in upper management was incredible -- head of HR, head of IT, head of PMO, head of one of the main operational groups... This is a company in free fall.

The ethics writer talked about the need for companies to set up a systematic way to prevent ethics violations within the company. She cited Boeing. The CEO of Boeing was having an affair, and that was reported through an anonymous compliance line. He was terminated.

When I raised an issue at the company, to three different people (two were direct conversations, and one was by email), it was dismissed (the conversations) and ignored (the email). I have nothing to report.

The author of the ethics book made it clear just how difficult it is for people to get out of business situations in which there appears to be a slippery slope to ethics violations, in part because of groupthink. Were they practicing fraud? Is this standard practice in this industry? I don't know. I just don't know. I didn't know my husband was having an affair, either.

I used to be in the black and white mindset. Now I no longer am. I see that people have different perspectives. I voted with my feet in leaving the company, and I wish I'd voted with my feet in leaving my husband.

I will say, however, I felt uncomfortable about calling to expose what I knew, and I still do. I also feel uncomfortable about having allowed myself to be taunted as I was. The IC who told me not to call told me later she thought he was having an affair but she also thought that his dropping little hints and insisting that I go to IC indicated to her he was just plain cruel, unable to understand the concept of care. Her goal was to get me to remove myself emotioanlly from him so I didn't end up with a nervous breakdown. Honestly, I don't think she was off the mark.

I woke up last night at 4 thinking about this. In the end, I think what I have been missing is self-respect. That lack of self-respect predates my relationship with my husband.

Cherished

PS. As for God and black and white thinking, I think there is indication to just leave. When the disciples are sent out to preach, they are told to preach and, if it is not heard, wipe the dust off their sandals and go on. There is such a thing as free will. I have the benefit, also, of trying to deal with four children who are in each other's business. I want them to be respectful of other people's decisions. For example, my daughter was told by a friend (M) that she could only play with her (M) if my daughter didn't play with two other friends (A and K). I told my daughter to tell her (M) that she would play with her (M) and she would play with the two other friends (A and K), and it was up to the friend (M) to decide what she wanted to do - did she want to play with my daughter or not.

anything fuzzy about your own words here???? Senior VP admits something is illegal... YOU contact the proper authorities and let them sort it out. Anything less than that is unethical.

as for your thoughts about how you used to look at things as black & white and now recognize different perspectives... that logic really sucks...where do you draw the line??? People have different perspectives on child abuse... so let's just let them have their point of view right. That point of view is what gets a million babies quartered and discarded in the trash in this country each year.
What it says to me is you don't have the balls to have the strength of your convictions....the ability to say that YOU will not tolerate something....hey the company wasn't stealing from YOU...so it is not your problem....the other BS..not your problem.

Leave the action up to others...you vote with your feet and bury your head in the sand. Remember when your head is in the sand the part of your anatomy that is sticking straight up.

MEDC,
"Yeehaw Culture" means there is so much chaos you don't know who is in charge of what. This guy had his own office, so he had some seniority. A title of Sr VP in this company may not have meant much. He had at least two direct reports and claimed to have others reporting to him.

Org charts would be nice. The most recent org chart was from September, and half the people were gone. Oh yea, head of marketing as well as head of HR, PMO, IT, and a major operational group. The head of customer service left the week after I did.

Something was unhealthy in that company, and I felt as though I needed to get out. I did find out, along the way in bringing up this issue, that they have instructions to not do something because it had been determined to be illegal. That heartened me. It may be that they were addressing legal issues but still not being ethical. I'm just not sure. It just didn't seem right. At minimum, they were being deceptive.

I did not view OWH as the other BS. I didn't know there was an affair going on. That's the whole point. Had I known, I would have informed him. Instead, he's the one who informed me. I told him what I knew of what I thought was an inappropriate friendship that he had ended months earlier but now wanted to restart by seeing her at a retirement party at his old department, and that's why I called OWH. OWH even brought up the possibility of an affair, and I said my husband would never have an affair. Do a search on MB and you'll see my very first post on MB just a few days before I called OWH:

"I am not getting over it. He is definitely not seeing her again and is committed to not seeing her again, and I am stuck. I don't really want to be around him. We have four small children. What do I do?"

OWH got the truth out of his wife and then told me. You would not believe my reaction. I practically had a nervous breakdown. I ended up spending a week in California with my sister. I was out of my mind for months on end.

My hands are full today. Today I learned my husband had accidentally put money into dependent child care that should have gone to medical care to pay for our daughter's orthodonic care. Now what? How do we pay those bills? That was a $3,500 mistake.

I need to leave that company in my past. Something smelled and I didn't need that in addition to everything else in my life.

As for my husband, I am ambivalent. When I married him, I was smitten. I thought he was the most caring person I had ever met, and I felt as though my love for him was so great that nothing could ever destroy it. That love is now completely gone. It's sad.

So tell me that I was wrong not to call the OWH, but what I was was naive. I never thought my husband would have an affair. What problems were in our marriage I thought were 100% my fault. I went to individual counseling because of being so upset about his relationship with this woman.

As for the company, why would I stay in it and try to figure out what was going on. I felt uncomfortable, almost unwashed. Why would I stay around?

Please appreciate that, just a few weeks ago, my husband yelled "I hate you" at me within earshot of the kids. Our 13 year old we found sobbing.

Cherished

the company...no one said you should stay in it. I said to let the authorities sort out the issue. You were given information about a crime being committed...it is your job to pass it on...I never said you needed to be a mole and gather more information. Just report what you knew and move on.

As far as your family goes... I was responding to you saying that exposure to the other BS is not black & white. It is...

There are ways around the issue of the expense account. They may not be legal but I see no ethical problem with them and since it was nothing more than a mistake, I would not let that $3500 just disappear.

MEDC,
What are the issues around the expense account? We put money in the wrong account. I don't think there is any way to use dependent day care account money to pay for braces.

I did expose to the OWH what I knew but it was because I thought my husband was considering rekindling a friendship. He had told me not to meddle in their marriage, and so had the IC. I regret not having called the OWH, but I was not in my right mind and knew it. I had medical problems which turned out to be severe enough for surgery. I was having severe night sweats, waking up several times per night and changing my nightgown. It turns out I needed a hysterectomy. The medical problems, I was told, affected mental health. I had just had our last baby and, to top it off, she had colic. It was a very confusing time. I'm not excusing my behavior. Looking back, I wish I had called, but what I have tried to say in this thread is that I do not have responsibility for my husband's choice to have an affair because I didn't call. He once said to me, "You knew something was going on, and you didn't do anything." How sad. I bought into that. I felt guilty for not having called, even under the circumstances. I went to an IC who advised against it. I talked to him who said it would be wrong to do so. I talked to a priest who said I needed to move on. And I knew that I was mentally unbalanced at the time. It's very difficult to make a decision when a medical doctor is telling you the condition you have causes hormonal fluctuations, and you are changing your nightgown becaue of the medical condition.

As for the company, I'll see if there is a compliance line for medical care.

Cherished

it is my understanding the money can be paid to ANY person that provides care to your child.

So, a family member can typically be paid for that care. So, your sister, mother, father...etc... can be paid for that care. The only loss you might incur is if there are any taxes due for the "income" provided to the care giver. I would pick the person with the lowest tax bracket to make this happen.

The problem is that we don't need to pay for child care. We need to pay for braces. I see what you mean about us figuring out how to pay for child care by paying a family member, but there is still the problem that we have no funds set aside for braces. It's sticky.

But that's the way that it is.

Cherished