What the company was doing was out and out fraud, and no one seemed to think that was a problem. It seemed to me that it was like a person who is openly having an affair. Lots of people have affairs. Not a lot of people are blatant about it.

I really struggled about what to do. I left. It seems to me that a company like that is like a person who cheats on an expense account. It never stops, and sooner or later it gets bigger. But I did struggle with the decision. I read a book on ethics in which both approaches (leaving and whistle-blowing) were discussed but mostly what was discussed is how often people just stay because their mortgage payment is dependent on their job.

What tipped me to not exposing fraud was an article in the Wall Street Journal about a 20-something employee of a healthcare organization who collected 10,000+ email addresses of employees over the course of his employment and then did a broadcast email about problems with a system that he considered to be unethical. Was it unethical or just inefficient? What the company was doing -- was it fraud, or was this person saying it was fraud? I asked my husband and sister-in-law, both of whom work in healthcare, and they were astonished. But still... Was what they were doing illegal? I didn't know for sure. I just knew it was good to get away from it.

As for exposure of the affair, I regret having not exposed. The reason why is that, in the months between the two times I contacted Harley's radio show, I was so upset that it was a good thing a child didn't die -- from my distraction. One fell down 12 steps onto concrete when she was 10 months old. Can you imagine? Can you imagine seeing your baby crawling at the bottom of 12 steps? I took her to the doctor and he examined her thoroughly. You cannot imagine my relief when he said "She's giggling. That's a good sign." He told me she could have suffered permanent brain damage. I was responsible for four young children (all under 7) and I was distracted by his relationship with this woman.

And my husband broke my arm, of course. I was lucky to have no problems other than a scar on my forearm but I was in a cast for four months and had three surgeries.

But I do think the IC was correct to not have me expose. She met my husband. Harley did not. She saw a complete lack of regard for my feelings. She wanted me to understand that he was in charge of his life, and I was in charge of my life. She wanted me to be objective in seeing a lack of care or compassion for me with regard to his relationship with this woman (which I did not think was an affair and which he said was over.)

What advice would I give for someone in BS fog? Well, I tried a lot of things that sure haven't worked and I'm not sure if anything will work to repair our marriage.

What I would recommend first is that the person accept a few facts:

1. There is nothing you have done or could ever do to deserve infidelity. Separation, yes. Divorce, yes. But not infidelity.

2. You may have missed some things in not realizing there was an affair going on or in not exposing what you suspected or in not spying. You may have believed that love means trust. The fact is that you are not responsible for your spouse's behavior. Your spouse is.

3. Your job is to care for your spouse. Ask what you could do to improve life for your spouse and figoure out what you could do that would be positive for your spouse and for you. Currently, that is what I am doing. My husband, for example, doesn't like my leaving keys around so I cannot find them. I put a hook up in the entryway closet. Good for him. Good for me. I am working on meeting his needs.

4. Respect your own feelings. Don't be intimate if you don't feel comfortable. Don't agree to what you don't want. And that includes meeting the need for SF. If he's having an affair, he doesn't respect your feelings. You need to ask yourself why.

Cherished

cherished, whether you struggled or not, you made a bad decision and have only enabled this company to continue its corruption. Corruption and fraud should be exposed so it can be stopped. There is always a victim somehere along the line, so saying that it might have jeopardized someone's job is no excuse to help hide it. Corruption supercedes anyone's personal inconvenience.

Hopefully, you aren't implying that you have to read a book on "ethics" to know right from wrong? Right and wrong is right and wrong regardless of how personally convenient it is to take action. One can't claim to have principles if they only act on them when it is convenient.


I am not sure what any of this has to do with exposing or not. Your IC gave you bad advice and sounds like a kook. You were upset because of the affair. People expose every day, Cherished, their children are not killed by it so this is a false dichotomy you are making. Rather, exposure gives the BS a feeling of STRENGTH and virtue for having done the right thing. Telling your H's other victim was the right thing to do, Cherished, and one does not just do the right thing when it is personally expediant. That is not the behavior of a principled person.

Edited because I must have lost my mind!

**thud**

you stole dat from me, you silly Kansan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What knowledge I had was limited. I was in a meeting with a Sr VP in which he said "it's illegal, but we do it anyway." I had met with a tech support person who explained why claims weren't resubmitted. I had a copy of a contract in which a term was used which, when looked up on the Internet, meant fraud. I raised the question, was told it was the business line's issue not ours, and got myself off the project as quickly as possible. I thought I could stay in the company but not on that project. It still didn't sit well with me. A new head of compliance was announced, and I thought about emailing him. But I was a part-time employee -- did I know what was going on, or not? The only way I could get more information was to stay on the project and in the company. I didn't want to stay around. It just smelled bad.

I see an analogy with exposing an affair. Maybe some WS's first exhibit selfish behavior when they start an affair, but mine sure didn't. The swearing, the disregard, the contempt... started on our wedding night, and the affair was eight years into the marriage. I should have left and not hung around to be worried about an affair.

Can you believe it? He pushed on my forehead so hard 10 years ago -- 3 years before the affair -- that a lump developed. Did I go to the police? Did I go to a doctor? No. I went to a hairdresser and got bangs cut. Last week, I had an MRI for my head, and I will have surgery next month to remove the lump. Can you believe it?

I was responsible for four little children. The youngest was in 2nd grade when my husband had his affair, and the baby was -- a baby. The day of the proposition was the day I called the pediatrician to ask about colic, and he said the height of colic was 7 weeks. She was 7 weeks old on that day.

Didn't I have enough on my hands to not be calling OW and peppering my H with questions about what had happened between them? And I was driven mad with jealosy. "She's calling me and it would be rude of me to hang up." "I told her you felt threatened, and she said you had reason to be." "She told me she felt passion for me."

Did I really need exposure? I needed to get out of there to save my sanity.

One indicator for an unethical company, according to the book "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse" is that there is a new CFO every year. How would you feel if you were hired into a company as CFO and the books smelled?

What are the indicators for a spouse who is going to get in the position to have an affair? In my opinion, it is lack of desire to spend time with the spouse and willingness to violate the POJA.

This is a difficult subject for me, and I did struggle about what to do with the company but, more importantly, with my husband. With the company, I didn't stay around to gather evidence. I left. It smelled. I wish I'd gotten away from my husband long before he met the OW because he was very nasty towards me. In fact, once I told him I felt bad because I wanted to feel cherished. He scoffed. He scoffed. "That's ridiculous."

Was it really necessary to wait a few years after that to call OWH to find out that my husband was not being considerate towards me? I didn't need to find out about a secret second life. The way he treated me to my face -- literally disfiguring me -- should have been enough of a clue.

Thud is right.

Cherished

It probably took me about 3 days to get over being mad at my husband...but only because I realized right then and there (while I was still deep in the fog) that the OM had no intention of leaving his wife...and he was mad at ME because I couldn't control my husband!! ***Oh, the fog was so thick back then!!!***

It took about another 4 months until the reality of everything that I had done truly began to set in. I had had no contact at all and I was through withdrawal and looked in the mirror each day in complete disgust of what I had become and what I had done to my husband.

It was then that I realized the "risk" that my husband took in exposing the affair. He didn't know if I would seriously leave him or not, but he knew what needed to be done. I truly meant every word I said at the time when I threatened him that if he exposed I would never forgive him. (that sounds so completely ridiculous now!!!!!...I wouldn't forgive him? what a warped sense of thinking)

He did what he needed to do, he stepped up and protected me from myself, and let my victim (OMW) know that she had been equally victimized as he was. I thank God he did what he did, because I can't imagine how much more damage I would have done if he hadn't exposed.

When my husband said when I asked "are you seeing someone" because he refused to see me or hardly talk to me for 2 mos and was always angry and I had no idea why except he would say I should not have moved out and he answered "yes, I have moved on- I think I almost quit breathing." But being the confrontational type person I am I drove to her place the next day (after friends sat with me thru the night listening to me wail) and told her she better tell him to get his butt over as I was not leaving her yard until he did, she told him, I screamed at her, met him at another setting, he was too drunk to be driving so screaming at him did not do much good, waited the next day for him to be sober and said make a choice and he called her next day and went to see her and said he still loved me and it was over. It was really already over in his mind, but why did he not end it before he told me and hurt me like that, guess it would have hurt the same either way as a friend was about to tell me at about the same time. I just could have never let it go and said "whatever"-I guess the passive-agg type have to be told. I'm still searching for the "why"? As I posted on another one, he is to write down the whys for the counselor and will be interesting to hear it told to a third party in front of me.

Cherished,

To your original question. Yes there is a BS fog.

Lets face it when we find out about or spouses affair it is devestating.

What are usually the first things out of a waywards mouth after D Day. Justifications and revision of history.

As my head was spinning seven different ways to sunday my wonderful wife proceeds to give me all of my short comings and all of the reasons she had the affair.

Me not being in a sound state of mind cannot think clearly. I feel like my world caved in around me and it was hard to breath. I struggled to take every breath. My mind was an enemy in my own head.

I wanted to turn it off. Putting logical thoughts together was nearly impossible.

I loved my wife more then the world I cherished her, or thought I did.

I know she wouldn't have betrayed me unless she was pushed to it. She was to good of a person.

So I believed it was me. She was above that.

As my mind started working again I realized a few things, most were unimportant.

Finally I realized there is no reason or justification for an affair.

If I was really bad enough to drive you to an affair you should have left.

Since you didn't you had only one other option go to an MC.

Talk with me. Heck give me an ultimatum do whatever, but do not sleep with another man.

frognomore,
THAT is the core of BS fog. It wasn't the fault of the WS. I blamed OW for chasing after my H, but heck -- he could have hung up the phone, not gotten in her car, not kissed her, etc.

The best way to clear the BS fog is to think: I may have deserved divorce or separation, but I never deserved infidelity. During the affair, my husband told me he would never leave me. After the affair was exposed, I realized he'd left without leaving.
Cherished

Cherised, I agree with Mel.

When my H reported the crime and corruption to the authorities, our mortgage payment was dependent on his job too. He knew his job would probably be at risk and that he would find it difficult to get another job because of economical & political issues in my country (that’s why my H was unemployed for nearly 4 years after his unfair dismissal), but my H was outraged by the crime & corruption, sick and tired of people up in management (and others) who were too afraid & coward to do anything about it. My H also couldn’t take the unfair treatment and victimization of other innocent employees in the company any longer (my H was chairperson of the labor union and all these things were reported to him) and decided to take the matter in his own hands and to do the right, decent and moral thing.

Cherised, I can tell you that for the past 4 years while my H was unable to find another job and while his unfair dismissal court case was dragged out, we went through a VERY difficult time financially and emotionally (my income was not enough to help us through with the basics each month)…but in spite of that, the good Lord still looked after us, made provision and helped us to survive in a miraculous way…He gave us the strength to get through this ordeal and put helping & caring people (“angels”) in our way during that time… And eventually in the end, justice was served and everything worked out for the good (as promised in the Bible) because my H trusted God and has done what needed to be done in spite of his personal fears & inconvenience.

Cherised, my H never thought he would actually get dismissed because he acted very cautious and "under cover" with the police, but unfortunately someone he trusted and who was suppose to be my H’s friend (someone at the same company) "split" on him and this person also witnessed falsely against my H to protect his OWN job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> This is why my H said to me that if he could do it all over again, he would whistle-blow again, but would be much more careful who he confided in and do some things very differently.

Suzet,
I'm not saying your husband did the wrong thing, but what I am saying is that I was in a different position and didn't have access to all the facts. Look at the timing of your husband's EA. He was in a corrupt company, he stayed, and he developed an EA.

One thing interesting about this book I read (called "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse") is that it said that "adultery is a room silencer." Adultery, especially on the part of the CFO or CEO, correlates with "cooking the books." The book recommended the movie Changing Lanes. In the movie, a wife tells her husband she knows he has cheated on her, tells him that her father had a mistress for 20 years, and then says that her mother accepted her father's because it would be hypocritical to be upset about his cheating on her when his cheating at work is what brought her the wealthy lifestyle she enjoys. The wife had this conversation with her husband because she wanted him to cheat at work to continue the lifestyle she enjoyed.

I didn't want to be corrupted by my work. I got out. I'm not saying it was the right thing for me to do or the wrong thing for me to do. What I'm saying is that I no longer enjoyed going to work, even though I loved what I did. It simply wasn't worth exposing myself to something that smelled bad.

Cherished

Cherised, I am the one who had an EA, not my H. My H has never been unfaithful to me.

It was not the company that was corrupt, it was certain people in the company who were corrupt, criminal and without any morals and conscience… I still work at the same company my H was dismissed from and the corruption at the company at the time had nothing to do with my EA. My EA developed long before that.

The reality is that emotional infidelity (or any type of infidelity) can develop at ANY workplace if people don’t protect their weaknesses/vulnerabilities and keep strong & healthy boundaries in place with the opposite sex. For this reason, A’s can even develop between church members and other places where no corruption/crime is taking place.

How sad… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I can’t believe some people have such totally skewed & wrong values. This woman is just as selfish and corrupt as her H.

Cherised, I understand… But the right thing for you to do after you have left that company would be to report to the authorities to investigate the matter. You had nothing to lose or fear because you've already left the company and your job.

JMO.

Cherised, I’ve talked a lot about the exposure of crime and corruption at work, so I will turn to the thread topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I’ve read through your BS fog list and some of those applied to my H and still applies in a way:

My H always believed and still believes that my childhood issues (physical and sexual abuse including my father’s bad example) and mental disorders (OCD with associated depression and anxiety) were the main things that contributed towards my emotional infidelity and “weakness” for FOM. He also believes that the FOM pursued me and tried to “lure” me into in A. And although my EA (and resumption of EA last year) was very painful for my H, he did not and still don’t view it as a “real” A because of the fact that I stopped it before it could develop into a full blown EA and especially PA. The first main boundary of inappropriate friendship into EA was crossed last year during the resumption when we confessed past feelings of "love" towards each other. Before those confessions, I realized I had a "beginning-stage EA" but my H always viewed it as "inappropriate behavior" and not "EA". I used to view it the same way, but my opinions changed as I studied this website and other articles/materials.

Anyway, my EA was never exposed to OMW. My H did not want it exposed for his own reasons and circumstances at the time. I did not expose because my H did not agree to it and would feel betrayed and disrespected if done against his will. Some people felt I must have exposed in spite of that and that I'm still a WW and in a "fog" because of that, but I guess that is a matter of different opinions...

I recently had a discussion with my H about it again and he is still against the exposure. He feels too much time has passed now and that exposure will be too radical for something that was not a “real” A (in his view). I must honestly tell you that I wish my H HAD exposed to OMW last year – I would have PREFERRED that…because I know it was WRONG not to expose to her and this issue still bothers me from time to time.

You ignore your conscience at your peril Suzet.

Suxet,

I don't think exposure is a black and white issue. I did not expose because my husband didn't want me meddling in his friend's marriage -- it was up to her to tell her husband.

With your husband, he may have his own reasons for not wanting exposure of your EA.

I just read a book on Leo and Sonya Tolstoy's marriage called Love and Hatred: The Stormy Marriage of Leo and Sonya Tolstoy. In Harley's parlance, Leo violated the POJA which led to his wife trying to control him, her increasing hysteria, and his leaving the house and taking trains. He caught pneumonia and died. I bring this up because Leo thought he was doing what was right and necessary. He was giving away copyrights to his writings and was trying to help the peasants whose life was grim. There had been a famine in which an estimated 400,000 peasants died. His wife didn't want him to give away copyrights because that was the income for them -- they had had 13 children together, some of them still living at home. She was hysterical and extreme in her description that her children would "eat black bread."

Tolstoy died in 1910 and the peasant uprising called the Russian Revolution was in 1917. He was right about the problems of the poor but violated the POJA in how he tried to address the issue.

The POJA does not allow YOU to violate your own moral code. What it does is prevent you from doing what is negative for the other. I think you err on the side of caution with the POJA. You don't do unless both agree.

In the end, I don't think it is a morally indefensible position for you to say nothing when your husband doesn't want you to say anything.

It's like my exposure of what appeared to be fraud at work. Was it fraud? I didn't know enough to be sure, and I didn't want to hang around, getting paid, when what I was trying to do was get away from it.

In your husband's view, if you have told him the whole truth, it was not much. I read a book called "Not Just Friends." A man's view of what an affair is appears to differ from what a woman's view is. Men typically don't think they are having an affair unless there is sexual intercourse. Women see it as an affair long before that, usually with the first kiss. My husband never had intercourse, and he told me that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong. Later he said he thought he was fooling everyone, and the only person he was fooling (meaning deceiving) was himself. I hope this helps. Care for your husband. One thing Sonya Tolstoy said about her husband was he loved all humanity and hated his wife.

Cherished

WRONG... DEAD WRONG.

Anyone that does not expose an affair to a victimized spouse is complicit in the harm done to that person. You say it is not a black and white issue...I say, there are few issues on this planet that are more "black & white."



You should have reported it and let the authorities decide what crimes have been committed.

There seems to be a moral disconnect some where in your thinking. Are you able to see that?

Try reading the book I read, "The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse." What was surprising to me is that it doesn't appear to be black and white to people who are involved. It wasn't clear to me that I should expose to a husband that his wife had said "Where is this friendship going?" What did that mean?

Affairs are along a continuum. It clearly is an affair if there is sexual intercourse. I would have considered a kiss on the lips to be an affair. I would have called if I had known that. I did not.

Cherished

and since you seem to be moved by Tolstoy...as you bring him up often...try this quote from him on for size...

"Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold"

That is a sad excuse to not expose, Cherished. It was up to whomever knew the truth to tell the man and you can't blameshift your failure to do so on your husband. Your H's opinion about exposing his crime to his victim is a little irrelevent, and self serving, isn't it? Your H is the LAST PERSON qualified to decide what is good for the OW's marriage. We don't let the rapist decide what is best for his victim. Your WS wasn't worried at all about "meddling" in his lovers marriage, as evidenced by his own "meddling," he was worried about getting busted so he could resume the affair - which he DID. So, saying that he "didn't want me meddling" is not a legitimate excuse.

There is no imaginary standard that dictates that only the victimizer can tell the victim. Do we say that only the EMBEZZLER can tell the embezzlement victim that money has been stolen? Otherwise, they are not told? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Of course not, that would be silly because yours is an abitrary standard that makes no sense.