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#1915625 07/25/07 10:39 PM
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From HNHN, p 176:

They can reignite the flames of their own love, but all their efforts may not completely extinguish the flame of love ignited by WS's affair with OW. It may burn low, but it might never go out completely.

p 177:

I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after fie or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife... He must resign himself to alifetime without her.

*************

I just read this and got sick to my stomach. Is this really just the bottom line here? That men will stay "hopelessly" in love with their OW's?

My husband, I believe, is especially suseptible to this for a lot of reasons.

So I guess my question is, are we just kidding ourselves here? What's the point?
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This is in reference to the A being an ADDICTION..just like the alcoholic cannot take just one drink ever again.

I'm OK with this. I GET IT!

I know my H will forever be addicted to the FOW...just like I can never smoke another cigarette. It feels good but they are BAD for me..can KILL me...

That's why he takes EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS.

That's why we plan to move away soon.

It's an ADDICTION for him..DESTRUCTIVE..almost destroyed him..he knows this..regrets it.

I don't think for my H that it is so much HER as the FEELING that the A gave him.

Yes. They are susceptible after having had the AFFAIR EXPERIENCE.

The key is for you to BUILD A NEW RELATIONSHIP with HIM which includes WORKING AS A TEAM TO HELP HIM with the ADDICTION..working together to PROTECT your MARRIAGE...against ALL NEGATIVE FORCES...

Have CONFIDENCE in YOURSELF that regardless of his WEAKNESS for HER..YOU will be OK..your MARRIAGE will be OK..

That's the whole point of the book HNHN..focus on meeting each others' ENs..to insure that your marriage continues to be AFFAIR-PROOF...work on that EVERY SINGLE DAY...


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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I'm totally with Mimi on this. I agree Mimi.

NC FOR LIFE only makes sense in this context.

Yes it isn't fair and it sucks.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Quote
I just read this and got sick to my stomach. Is this really just the bottom line here? That men will stay "hopelessly" in love with their OW's?

My husband, I believe, is especially suseptible to this for a lot of reasons.

So I guess my question is, are we just kidding ourselves here? What's the point?


rlt - perhaps you are just looking for things to justify NOT reaching "Recovered?"

If you are talking about a Class II, emotionally entangled affair, then "of course" there were "feelings" that were involved that had "feels good" reactions.

But "feels good" is a "fantasy" part of all relationships, including those between a husband and wife. The affair did NOT have all the "day to day realities" of marriage, though, and most often the "not so good" things were overlooked or denied in order to maintain the "feel good" feelings.

Emotional feelings ARE real, there is no denying that. We are all capable of "feeling good" about someone and responding to those feelings IF we do not have Standards in place that will govern how we allow, or refuse to allow, ourselves to ACT on those feelings. The "Standard" of God, for example, is that marriage is for life and "thou shalt NOT" with anyone other than your spouse, no matter what the temptation or emotional reactions to those temptations. The "strength" of chosen Standards, is in my opinion, the single biggest key in the successful or unsuccessful recovery of a marriage that HAS been "nuked" by the failure of previous Standards to be inforced.

That is why I have often said that TRUST is essential to full recovery and THIS issue you raise, whether the WS was the male or the female, is the "last" wall of "separation" that needs to come down before a couple can truly reach recovered.

As Mimi was saying, a Class II affair had a strong "addictive" component to it, and just like a former alcoholic will "always" be an addict, may think fondly about the "good feelings" that were a part of the addiction while not thinking fondly of the "bad things" associated with being a drunk. They remain in "recovery" from alcoholism for the rest of their lives, but they LEARN to enjoy reality and to enjoy being in control of their emotions instead of letting their emotions control them. Those around them learn, over time, to TRUST they will not "slip back into alcoholism" because TIME and ACTIONS have reestablished their trustworthiness. However, no one has to choose to trust them, they can always live in fear that they will slip back into the bottle, if that is how they choose to live their life, in fear or a desire to "never let go" and open themselves up to the POTENTIAL to be hurt whenever someone chooses to trust someone else.

If you feel "secure," you are likely to GIVE trust. If you feel "insecure," you are unlikely to give trust and prefer to stay in "Taker mode" and keep the barriers up in order to protect yourself from the "possibility" of being hurt again.

The FACT remains that a WS in a Class II affair did "prefer" someone else over you, their spouse, at that time in their life. The past cannot be changed. Recollections of past actions and the "motivations" behind them CAN be reevaluated and new choices made based upon a clear evaluation (not "Fogbound") of the "rationalizations and justifications" that were used and the WS can see the "big picture" again. In short, you, the BS can get your husband/wife back again as the "alien" within departs and is seen for the "hollowness and shallowness" of just giving into emotions as the controlling factor in our actions.

Remember, rlt, LOVE is first and foremost an action VERB. ACTING in love is a choice. LUSTING is NOT the same thing as LOVE. LOVE has many dimensions that far exceed a "warm fuzzy feeling" and LOVE "stands the test of time."

IF that were NOT true, there would be "NO" recovered marriages because not ONE Betrayed Spouse would choose to "love anyway" in defiance of the very real emotional pain that they endure in order to even attempt to recover their marriages. It has been said many times that Recover is NOT for the "faint of heart." It is HARD. It takes TIME. It is a "roller coaster." There are NEW changes that each spouse must make not only to "make themselves attractive" to their spouse, but to facilitate the ability to trust again. There is, in my opinion, no greater LOVE for someone than to trust them with your heart. With love comes the tandem fragility of that heart as you lower your guard and, in effect, say "my heart is in your hand, massage it with love or squeeze it until it stops beating. I TRUST you to NOT be the source of pain and anguish to my heart again."

Remember the "threefold promise" that a forgiver makes to the one being forgiven? The point about "not dwelling" on the affair is integral to full forgiveness and full recovery. It is my belief that no one can lower the protective barriers around their heart and ALLOW themselves to fully trust again as long as they CHOOSE to dwell on the negatives and PAST experiences.

If is for reasons such as those, that recovery takes YEARS. It is why it takes BOTH spouses WORKING at recovery to make it a successful recovery.

CAN you fail? Yes. Will you fail? You are LIVING in a future of your own making if you answer that question with a "yes." All any of us has is TODAY. The future is in God's hands. God holds the promises and He is faithful to ALL of His promises if we simply trust Him and ACT in obedience to His "Standards," individually and as husbands and wives. WHO is the completely "Trustworthy" one in a marriage covenant? WHO can give anyone the "motivation" for a "new set of personal Standards" that supercedes a fallen nature?

"Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard ans saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you." (Philippians 4:6-9 NKJV, emphasis added)

God bless.

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Here's my sticking point: that from the day I married Mr. Rlt, he had a "fantasy addiction" with someone he met in college. For over 20 years, there was NO CONTACT. None. That did not stop him from swooning over her, in his head. Contantly emotionally distant with me. Three babies did not deter him. Christmases, vacations, little league baseball games, dance recitals--nope, none of these things stopped him. It was an underlying constant in our marriage, and it ate away at me, at my self-esteem, sometimes at being a good mom, a good wife. How are you supposed to fully give your heart when you know they'd rather be with someone else?

I grew weary of it, guys. It affected me very badly. I remember seven years ago being very, very depressed. Going to IC. Mr. Rlt. never batted an eye, never asked how I was doing. Nothing. Three years ago, I had the occasional panic attack. It was almost as if, everything was leading right to where it went, this giant train wreck. And I did nothing to stop it. I just let him do whatever he wanted to do. I didn't like it. But I put up with it.

So, FH, trusting him with my heart is difficult. Like constantly sticking your hand on a hot burner.

His affair was an addiction. I'm fully aware of that. For me, "five or six years later" would be a drop in the bucket. But hey, I had to live with a ghost in my marriage for over 20 years (and there was NC). I just fear that this is now ghost number 2, who can come floating through at any time, like, just when I start to feel good about things.

FH, I remember the promise, but sometimes I just can't do it. I mean--sometimes I can, and sometimes I can't.

It's not really a matter of dwelling, but more just hoping that I'm doing the right thing here.

I live according to God's Standards as best I know how. I always have tried to. But I can't control what someone else does.

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How are you supposed to fully give your heart when you know they'd rather be with someone else?


Did he actually say this to you, rlt, or are you assuming this to be true?


Me: 45
Him: 47
married 23 years
Two wonderful sons
D-day for my EA: 8/15/04
D-day for his PAs: 8/16/06

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Hmmm, thinking. So many years involved there. He did once ask me if it was possible to love two people at the same time. But I sort of, kind of had it figured out with the tons and tons of poetry and songs he had written to her throughout our married life. He tried to hide them, but not real well.

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He's not in love with anyone except himself and how that makes him feel "at the time". I bet you my next paycheck if he and OW had married and "real life" kicked in (60 hour work weeks, children, financial difficulty, LB'ing, AO'ing, spending time apart, getting his teeth kicked in at work, having little time for romance, etc.) that his friggin poetry would have consisted of a purchased hallmark card.

It's easy to be romantic if that is your only focus. That's why staying in a 20,30, 40 year marriage these days is almost unheard of. People don't know what vows, commitments are and don't have a realistic view of love and relationships imo.

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I think he would rather be with you than with her.

....because he is with you and not with her.

just a hunch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Me: 45
Him: 47
married 23 years
Two wonderful sons
D-day for my EA: 8/15/04
D-day for his PAs: 8/16/06

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hopeandpray,wow, you have a way with cutting to the chase. I agree with you.

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So, FH, trusting him with my heart is difficult. Like constantly sticking your hand on a hot burner.

Of course it's "difficult." There are few things that have a more devastating impact upon one's heart, ego, self-esteem, beliefs, etc. than an adulterous betrayal by a spouse.

God knows that. God made us and gave us our emotions and the "Rules" for marriage, the purpose of marriage, and HIS unlimited strength as both our personal Lord and Savior as well as His participation in our marriage as a covenant partner.

That is also why Jesus gave us "permission" to divorce in the case of marital unfaithfulness. He knows the enormity of the pain and limitations of humans to forgive as God has forgiven us.

So what follows pertains to a WS who has "seen the light," "get it" finally, and is humbly committed to doing all that he/she can to build a new marriage with the BS.




Quote
His affair was an addiction. I'm fully aware of that. For me, "five or six years later" would be a drop in the bucket. But hey, I had to live with a ghost in my marriage for over 20 years (and there was NC). I just fear that this is now ghost number 2, who can come floating through at any time, like, just when I start to feel good about things.

This is experience talking. You have justification for your fears. However, justification does not mean that "all is lost or hopeless." You NEED to talk to your husband about this fear because A)you are not a mind reader and cannot read what may actually be in his mind and, B)you need to hear from him his commitment to you and the marriage so that your "fears" can have something other than your own musings and imaginations that weave scenarios based upon factual past actions of his.




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FH, I remember the promise, but sometimes I just can't do it. I mean--sometimes I can, and sometimes I can't.

Normal. I can't do it all the time either. That's the NATURE of a severe traumatic experience. But again, we are NOT "captive" to the thoughts. We CAN choose to acknowledge them, put them aside, and WORK at recovery. Over time, they fade, they don't come as often. But for a LONG time you WILL have those sorts of thoughts every day. One day, though, you will think about them and you will realize that "it's been a while since I had those thoughts." That's because recovery is working. Remember the key "advice" about earned trust? Trust unless given a reason not to trust. YOU know your husband and you know when things "don't add up" or "don't seem right." Your "radar" has been switched on and there is no "off switch." Once activated by the reality of an affair, it remains on for life. It WILL go into "standby mode," but the least little "blip" and it will flair to full power again.

Honesty and openness. VERY vital to recovery. Accountability of time or any deviation, legitimate or not, from the "expected" schedule and the FWS NEEDS to call and tell you. That builds trust. NOT calling breeds distrust and wild imaginings because of "that hot stove" and the FACT that hot stoves DO burn if someone doesn't care enough to let you know they left the stove on and are not there to watch that you don't get burned.



Quote
It's not really a matter of dwelling, but more just hoping that I'm doing the right thing here.

We (BS's and WS's) ALL "wonder" if it's worth it and if it will "work out." That is also why it is so important that BOTH husband and wife WORK at recovery and making the relationship a "safe place." It's also why it takes so long TO recover. You can't "fix everything" all at once. You take it one day at a time, one piece at a time, building the "new house" one brick at a time.



Quote
I live according to God's Standards as best I know how. I always have tried to. But I can't control what someone else does.


No you can't. That's also why we are cautioned to not be unequally yoked. If you are both trying to submit your lives to God and HIS standards, then His covenantal promise of the "triangle of marriage" WILL result in the two of you growing closer to each other as you both grow closer to Him.

God bless.

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RLT,

I read the exact same thing at the same time as you did, and had the same reaction. I'm glad that you asked the question. I'm also wondering is it worth having a lifetime battle. Always wondering if he sees her after 5, 6 (or whatever) years, is it going to start up again.

After I read that, I thought that maybe I should just back off, let them live together and let the A run its course. Once they run into reality and the problems of everyday living, maybe the spark will die.

I'd love to hear any FWHs out there who would care to comment on that paragraph in HSHN. I actually asked Lousygolfer the question on another thread but I don't think that he saw it. Lousy, if you're out there, can you weigh in on this??


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RLT,

Harley said "may" and "may not."

Important words. Only you and your FWH choosing radical honesty will know about your marriage. Addiction to fantasy...sounds like a 20-year EA which you knew about and chose to ignore. Your half. Not your fault.

My DH had a similar problem. He fantasized a lot. Kept him safely non-intimate (only enough to feel not-abandoned, not close enough to trigger his fear). Wasn't about people, love or desire...was his fear-management tool which bit his own tushie in the end.

Get to know your coping skills...and you'll begin to understand his better.

Then you can learn true living skills, instead.

I believe in both of you tremendously. You can do this. Another level, another layer. More on the road to recovery.

LA

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"Your half. Not your fault."

Thank you, LA. And thanks for believing in us.


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