I have not been posting long, but I am a BS who has no children with WH. I have read other threads/posts where BSs who (like me) are in childless Ms are often advised to cut their losses with WS once the A is discovered rather than go through the work of recovery to save the M.

Why is that? Isn't a M that is childless worth saving as much as a M with children? A vow and commitment to your spouse are still just that. A family is still torn apart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Looking for input/understanding...

I often recommend cutting the losses when the marriage is young and there are no children. If you have a longer M and more invested, obviously that is different. Why? Because there is less for the WS to be invested in and come back to IMHO. Not to mention that recovery from an A is hard. No one here would say a childless marriage is worth less than one with children. Sorry if that is the way it comes across.

Agree very much with faithfulfollower. Sometimes the best thing to do is cut your losses before any children are dragged into the morass. A childless adult can recover much easier than a little child, which is why we do everything we can to help someone save a marriage with children.

To me, it depends on a lot of other variables. If it is a short marriage, it may be better to cut losses. But a longer one, even without kids, and it may be better to try to save.

I know that Frank Pittman says that more than half of affairs happen in the first couple of years. So we are talking about a lot of marriages. But on the other hand, if a partner can't be faithful through the early, honeymoon years, that doesn't bode well for the later years.

faithful

I did not take the comments to mean that folks here thought that childless marriages were less than ones w/children. I've learned that the people here believe in and want marriages to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My WH and I will be married 9 years in Nov, but we have been together as a couple since our junior year in college. So many years invested, but I do admit not having children makes our situation a little more tentative now, IMO. Lots of people had told me I am blessed not to have children in this situation, and I certainly understand as OW's sons are destroyed by what their mother has done by leaving them and their father.

sp,


All marriages have <worth>, but not all marriages are equally worth <saving>. Lots of factors play into that, but to understand how children, or lack of children, fit into a decision to end a marriage...there are quite a few considerations most of us analyze when giving advice.

If infidelity issues are a problem in the first five years of marriage, as believer said, it doesn't bode well for the future. The best predictor of the future is the past....so anytime someone cheats, the odds that they will cheat again....increases. An young marriage has a whole lot of real estate in front of it.....so a long future to consider. A betrayed spouse must evaluate risk and how much energy they wish to invest in a relationship with a spouse whose already proven untrustworthy.....and that's different with or without children.

When there are no children involved, a betrayed spouse only has to evaluate their own risk for staying or leaving. No matter what they decide....to stay or go....that decision can be made independently and generally with less complication. When you have children....your decisions directly affect those children, not of just you.

Logically, there are more options for a childless BS, because while it may be financially doable to walk out alone <even with little money>.....when you've got children things become WAY more complicated on every level. When you don't have children.....you're evaluating future risk based and how it might affect you and your future children (Should I have children with a guy I don't trust?). That's a completely different decision from evaluating the risks of divorce on children you already have.

Research shows, that children of divorce are at much greater risk for all kinds of serious problems (suicide, sexual abuse, drug use etc). It's another layer of complication that creates a reason to work a little harder or longer for recovery, even if a betrayed spouse might otherwise be willing to move on.

How much easier do you think it is to walk out on cheating spouse when you aren't carrying a baby or comforting heartbroken children? When you don't have to evaluate every man you might date on what kind of step-parent they'll be? Adults have a well of emotional maturity to draw from.....but children are ill equipped to emotionally deal with the breakup of their family.

Children also create a very strong and unbreakable bond that isn't dependent on the marriage. Most spouses are forever linked through parenting whether they stay together or not.....and that inability to completely sever all ties makes divorce more challenging for folks with children. Blended families that include children from previous marriages face enormous challenges too.

Many marriages without children involve younger posters. Younger people without children have the most career options, the best chance of finding a new faithful partner, the most mobility etc. Young people WITH children or older people who may have given up careers to raise children....have more dependence and fear about leaving or trying again. Younger people have also had less time to lose the kind of confidence and self esteem that living in a faithless marriage can create....so they're sometimes more hopeful and strong.

The longer history you have together and the more emotional investment you've made in a marriage.....the harder it is to leave it and the more entwined and enmeshed your lives are. Children magnify those dynamics.

Personally, I know for a fact that if I hadn't already had two babies when my husband cheated....I would never have stayed in my marriage. I felt very obligated and encumbered....and far more scared about facing my future as a single parent than I would have been being a single woman again.

Right now you have the blinders of love on. You love this person and don't see the real flaws they have and whether or not they are really worth it.

I don't have blinders on anymore. I see my ex for who she really is. She's an emotionally immature, psychologically messed up woman. She's a weak mother at best and is very much still in the fog. I don't even find her physically attractive anymore.

One year ago I would have done anything to get her back and restore the family. The only thing keeping me around right now is my kids. Otherwise, I'd count my lucky stars, thank God it happened while I was young, and find someone who has morals.

Sorry, a person who cheats is scum. Some recover from their mistakes, and quit being scum. I'd rather find someone scum free.

And yes, I do have people near and dear to me who have been unfaithful. My father included. I find his behavior disgusting and I'm still mad, 10 years later, over what he did.

We get along great, but I always ask "why?"

Count your blessings. A marriage is nothing more than official and legally binding dating when no kids are involved. There's nothing there to keep you together. Love is not enough. That's for hollywood. Real life love is a heck of a lot more complicated and it takes work.

That advice is typically given for marriages of short duration, and, are childless. If you've only been married 2-3 years, and a spouse commits adultry, in 5 years, a half of your marriage will have been spent in recovery, and recovery is TOUGH. Not a very good way to start a marriage.

That's why the advice is often given to cut and run. Especially with childless marriages of less than 5 years duration. A marriage is much "easier" to dissolve without children.

SD

For marriages with children, you owe it to your children to fight for an intact home. I tried for about 10 years and lost so much self-respect that I wanted to wear a burquah when I went outside.

My son is hurt by the D. And we are not in a nasty D. We don't tear each other down to him. Still, he is hurting.

I would have quit much sooner had it not been for our son.

I 100 % agree with believer on this...

After my relapse last year a BH said I if he was my H he would end the marriage. He said ”after all they are young and there are no children”. I was very upset about this comment and the fact that this person (and probably others) viewed my M as not worth fighting for because of no children... My H and I are almost 11 years married; share a strong bond & emotional investment into each other and have went through and overcame many difficult times and trials together (probably more than many longer married couples). Therefore, me and my H view our M as no less bonding, important and worth fighting, maintaining & working on than M’s with children.

Isn't a M that is childless worth saving as much as a M with children?

To me, short answer is NO

A M with children has to consider the impact upon the children. Many S make sacrifices for their children that they would not make otherwise, bottom line.

Marraige without children, OTOH, comes down to personal decisions. The BS has no external factors to consider other than how much cheating he/she can deal with.

To me, this is a very simple question with an even simpler answer.

When someone arrives on these pages looking for a reason why they are here or if there is hope for them I think the answer is NEVER, EVER “cut your losses”, except in the most dire of circumstances where a persons health might be in jeopardy. To make such a statement is a huge disrespectful judgment at least from my perspective.

“Even a good person can do a bad thing”. It has always seemed to me that this is the fundamental premise by which the ENTIRE Marriage Builder philosophy is based on. Without it, NO marriage should be saved. But if you embrace this concept then I would suggest that you cannot “pick and choose” when it applies.

If a betrayed spouse or a wayward spouse shows up and asks how to save their marriage, then it is a simple matter to provide that person the tools to help them “save their marriage”. Will those tools work? No one here has the ability to foresee the future but WE ALL know that the MB tools are highly effective. But to tell them to “cut their losses” is a preposterous position to me knowing what I now know about affairs.

I have always wondered if the BEST marriage partner is the one who has learned from the experience and horror of having lived through an affair.

If someone wants to save their marriage then it matters little if they are a wayward or betrayed. It matters little if the have been marriage for one year or 30 years. It matters little if there are no children or 10 children. All that matters is what THEY are looking for, what THEY want, and NEVER what YOU want or even worse, what YOU think they should want.

There is truth and there is conjecture. Telling a betrayed spouse to “cut their losses” simply based on the fact that they have no children or have been marriage for only a few years is pure conjecture.

The truth is that if someone wants to attempt to recover then there is a GOOD chance that they may come out the other side with a BETTER marriage. Why would anyone deny them that opportunity? (Unless you don't believe it.)

Mr. G

Mr. G, I hate to tell you this, but that wording is from DR. HARLEY, who has recommended "cutting one's losses" before a bigger investment, ie: children, mortgages, etc, is made.

Of course it is conjecture, because that is all we have. It is only conjecture that it WON'T happen again. So we have to rely upon common sense and probability. One cannot see the future, however that does not mean it's not good, sound advice. Especially, in a very new marriage. If I marry a BUM, it is only "conjecture" that he is going to be a BUM, but common sense dictates that the likelihood is great.

What is NOT "conjecture" is that recovery will be he11, perhaps greater than the he11 of divorce.

Sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes the best path is to get out while the getting is good, rather than dragging innocent children into a very damaged, problematic marriage. That is irresponsible, IMO.

Simple common sense dictates that such problems in a very young marriage are indicators of things to come. Whereas, in a longer term marriage, there is a pattern of behavior that may indicate otherwise. Either way, it is much easier to get out of a marriage with no children and sometimes that is the definition of success. ALL MARRIAGES should not be saved.

I think that is sometimes the soundest advice and is no way a "disrespectful judgment." It is very hard to recover from the damage of an affair and sometimes it is much easier to get out than it is to go through all the trauma of recovery.

Another reason to "cut your losses" if its early in the marriage and there are no children involved.

Read "The Five Love Languages". Chapter 3. It talks about the difference between "love" and "being in love". Typically, the "being in love" stage lasts about the first two years in a relationship...sometimes a little longer.

But during that time, its almost impossible to see the flaws in your partner. It's the "honeymoon" phase. Its when things are supposed to be filled with that glow...when everything is perfect and wonderful.

If your spouse cheats on you during THAT phase...what's going to happen in the later phases, when reality is setting in? When it goes from being a honeymoon, to something that actually requires WORK to maintain? If they cheated when its good...what's going to happen when they're going to be expected to start putting effort into the marriage?

To me, someone who cheats this early is a PRIME suspect for being a serial cheater later. This is why I tend to agree with recommending that the BS run for cover if they find that their spouse has been cheating during the first 2-3 years of a marriage.

We will likely not be on the same page on this one.



I have of course read that passage from the good doctor. That is a consideration that must be evaluated by the couple that is caught in the mess, not by you or me. That advice from Dr. Harley does NOT extend to someone who wants to SAVE his or her marriage. It seems that you have changed the context from my intent. As I see it, the most important piece of the puzzle is to ask the question, “Do you want to save the marriage?” If the answer were “yes” then I would hazard to guess that the best advice is the advice that will best help them to achieve that goal?



But what if he is NOT a bum? “People who have affairs are not necessarily bums.” What if instead of the word “BUM” we substitute “a person of high moral fiber and philanthropic nature”? My point is that such a position makes all the difference yet it seems that it is disregarded in your analysis and I wonder if you think such differences are not the most crucial ones? What I may think are golden attributes in a person are not the same as what you think. An even more important consideration is, “What makes anyone think that “cutting one’s losses” will produce a superior result.



You are of course correct and I don’t disagree, at least on the surface. I would take exception to the premise that the litmus test for divorce is “If there are no children and you have been married a short time then you should divorce”. I would characterize such blanket advice as potentially “off the mark”.

Would I be correct in assuming that your advice in an infidelity situation is to “cut your losses” with ANY marriage that is, let’s say, less than two years with no children?



It becomes a disrespectful judgment when we tell a person what THEY want. Example, “Dear John, you have only been married for one year, you have no children, you need to cut your losses and move on”. I really think that all that matters little because the “meat” is where we give a person the information to make decisions for themselves without telling them what the decision should be.

Of course we know that “recovery” is a difficult path but it is a path that is chosen by two people, not a marriage counselor or anyone else. Give them the facts, and then let them make the choice. After that, support them in every way possible to help them succeed or divorce as the case may be.

Mr. G

Mr G-

Read my post above. Think about what I said in there, about how "love" is in different stages of marriage. If someone cheats when that "love" is at its most unconditional, at its "honeymoon" phase...then does that NOT make it more likely that they'll cheat later, when that "love" requires work and effort to maintain?

How many times have we seen people come here, complaining that their spouse cheated once at the beginning of their marriage...they forgave them...and then it happened AGAIN??

More than I can count.

The poster asked why so many people provide the advice that they do. Those people...including Mel...including me...have provided a response. Should be pretty much all there is to it.

I'd suggest that if you feel differently...when the new people come and ask for advice...post yours, right along with everyone else. Then they can chose what they feel is most appropriate to act upon.

Of course it is not the "best advice, " if it is an unrealistic, stupid goal. One would be irresponsible to help someone achieve such a goal. Dr.Harley recommends this very thing, and we are here, after all to learn and help others learn about his principles.

Sometimes the best advice is to tell the person to run for his life. However, when folks come here and ask for advice, it should be answered by you and me. How you answer is your business, how others answer is up to them. You have no control over that; how others "should" answer is their own business.

However, even if someone WANTS to save their marriage, it does not mean it is a smart thing to do. Nor would it be responsible to give someone false hope in a situation where there should be none. That is doing them no favors, nor does it reflect good judgement or common sense. We should tell folks what we believe is best for them, not necessarily what they want to hear.

Well, you can; I am not interested in doing that. So, no, I would not agree that the "best advice" would be to help someone achieve a goal that is stupid and ill thought out if I thought the best advice would be to cut their losses. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise. Just because someone WANTS to save a bad marriage, does not mean it is the smart thing to do. One does not need to be a psychologist or a "counselor" to recognize a bad situation.


That is not "telling a person what they WANT," [rarely do they WANT to hear that] that is giving someone advice. That is telling a person WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, since they ASKED. Big difference. If I give you directions to the gas station, I am not telling you what you "WANT," I am telling how you SHOULD get there.

Secondly, a disrespectful judgement is a LOVEBUSTER. It is not the goal or purpose of the members here to fill each others LOVE BANK, but to give advice to the best of their ability according to Marriage Builders principles.


Of course the final choice always comes from the people involved. No one has ever said otherwise, unless you imagine we have magical powers here to take away the free will of posters. That being said, others here have the "choice" to advise them to "cut their losses" [or "run for your life!] when they deem appropriate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi there Owl,

I read your post. In it you present a hypothesis that states that a spouse that cheats in the first years of marriage are likely to become serial cheaters.

Based on your hypothesis you conclude that ALL marriages that are stricken by infidelity that are less than two years and without children should dissolve.

It is not that I don’t understand your position or your observations that spouses that have cheated once early in the marriage cheated again latter in the marriage. I accept your observation based on face value although I am not sure that it is accurate. It would be interesting to see if there were studies on this to help confirm your assumptions but I think I can still formulate my rationalizations without such studies.

I am of the position that nearly ALL of those marriages that you note with a second offence would never occurred had the marriage received a good dose of Marriage Builder principles at the time of the first offence. Further, I propose that the primary reason there was a second offence was because there was NO recovery work performed the first time around. Without the right work and tools applied to a recovery there is a reasonable chance that an affair will happen again or that the marriage will dissolve. I believe that.

Let’s say that in your hypothesis you are correct 75 percent of the time and that is a huge number. That means that you are giving the wrong advice 25 percent of the time. But you’re not advising them of what color shirt to wear, no, it is not just a small mistake, you would be advising a spouse to end their marriage. When I came here almost three years ago I was ready to listen to the first person who answered my plea for help. I thank God that JL was there for me. But it wasn’t just him, everyone who answered offered encouragement and hope. They didn’t TELL me what to do; they instead offered the reasons why affairs happen. It made all the difference. The reasons and truths behind affairs NEVER changed because of my age or the number of children. It stood on its own and I made the decision. Shortly thereafter, my wife joined me in our recovery efforts. I could not believe it possible but here I am.

What is your estimation of the percentages of marriages that are saved when MB principles are applied? Dr. Harley says that number is 100 percent. But it is certainly true that NOT all marriages can be saved nor should all marriages be saved. We already know that EVERY marriage is lost where one spouse elects to not return. It happens all the time. There is significant number of “Plan Bs” out there. A representative number of those marriages will end in divorce. It takes both partners to save a marriage, we already know that. And guess what; if both partners are willing to work to save the marriage then it is saved every single time without fail. What is so troubling to me is that someone would actively participate to deny someone that opportunity solely based on the length of their marriage and the number of children.

Worse than that, when we advise someone to divorce as a proactive response, we lose them from these boards and they do not benefit from the Marriage Builder principles.



Sure, but I don’t normally offer advice. And when I do I almost always offer the hard truth behind it. In the case we are discussing I hope that I would be wise enough to ask them what THEY want to happen with their marriage. Regardless, it is much more constructive for me to make a good logical case with you than it is trying to reach each individual.

I hope that I’ve done a good job in presenting my case.

Mr. G

Melody,



I of course, have no objection here. I am merely presenting my arguments to you for your consideration. I am hopeful that you find nothing wrong in my motivations.



Yes, yes, yes! You bring up issues where we have no disagreement. Perhaps the following two illustrations will better make my point.

Case No. 1
“Hi, I married my high school sweetheart when I was twenty years old. We have been married for 18 months and have no children. The problem is that I have just found out that he had sex with a woman the night of his bachelor party. I am absolutely sick about this but I still love him and he says he loves me. Is there hope for us?”

Case No. 2
“Hi, I married my high school sweetheart when I was twenty years old. We have been married for 18 months and have no children. The problem is that he has been sleeping with his old girlfriend for the past year. I am absolutely sick about this but I still love him even though he says that he does not love me. Is there hope for us?”

If you offer the same advice to both cases then we are indeed at different ends of the spectrum.



We continue to differ in the definition of “cut your losses” and when it is most appropriate to do so. I thought that we were discussing infidelity in marriages that are young and without children as the SOLE reason for divorce as a legitimate final act. I somehow think you might be changing that position. Perhaps I have it wrong; are you saying that anyone who wants to save a marriage that is young and without children is “stupid and ill thought out”?

DEFINITION
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other.

I think that I have discovered that a DJ is just as harmful in our daily discourse with our friends and coworkers, as are angry outbursts and the like. They perhaps have even more significance and effect with the raw emotions of the newly betrayed.



Again, this is not something that I am in disagreement with.

Mr. G

No, I am responding to your statement that the "best advice" is always to help the person achieve his goal, regardless of the intelligence of that goal. Sometimes it can be stupid and ill thought to save such a marriage, IMO.


Probably so, but that is the beauty of this forum. We all have different perspectives and that is a great benefit to any poster on this forum.


First off, telling someone what Dr. Harley believes, ie: that young marriages without children are better off not saving, is not "imposing a system of values and beliefs on the other." It is merely imparting his opinion. We are here for the purpose of learning Dr. Harley's opinions; that is hardly a lovebuster, MrG. If that is the standard, then you are guilty of a dj yourself for merely expressing your objection to "cutting ones' losses."

Further, this misses the point of lovebusters altogether. The purpose of avoiding lovebusters is to protect a LOVE BANK and build feelings of love. We are not doing any such thing with our co-workers, board members, etc. Telling someone to divorce and "cut their losses" is hardly a disrespectful judgment, but often very sound, loving advice.