I have not been posting long, but I am a BS who has no children with WH. I have read other threads/posts where BSs who (like me) are in childless Ms are often advised to cut their losses with WS once the A is discovered rather than go through the work of recovery to save the M.

Why is that? Isn't a M that is childless worth saving as much as a M with children? A vow and commitment to your spouse are still just that. A family is still torn apart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Looking for input/understanding...

I often recommend cutting the losses when the marriage is young and there are no children. If you have a longer M and more invested, obviously that is different. Why? Because there is less for the WS to be invested in and come back to IMHO. Not to mention that recovery from an A is hard. No one here would say a childless marriage is worth less than one with children. Sorry if that is the way it comes across.

Agree very much with faithfulfollower. Sometimes the best thing to do is cut your losses before any children are dragged into the morass. A childless adult can recover much easier than a little child, which is why we do everything we can to help someone save a marriage with children.

To me, it depends on a lot of other variables. If it is a short marriage, it may be better to cut losses. But a longer one, even without kids, and it may be better to try to save.

I know that Frank Pittman says that more than half of affairs happen in the first couple of years. So we are talking about a lot of marriages. But on the other hand, if a partner can't be faithful through the early, honeymoon years, that doesn't bode well for the later years.

faithful

I did not take the comments to mean that folks here thought that childless marriages were less than ones w/children. I've learned that the people here believe in and want marriages to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My WH and I will be married 9 years in Nov, but we have been together as a couple since our junior year in college. So many years invested, but I do admit not having children makes our situation a little more tentative now, IMO. Lots of people had told me I am blessed not to have children in this situation, and I certainly understand as OW's sons are destroyed by what their mother has done by leaving them and their father.

sp,


All marriages have <worth>, but not all marriages are equally worth <saving>. Lots of factors play into that, but to understand how children, or lack of children, fit into a decision to end a marriage...there are quite a few considerations most of us analyze when giving advice.

If infidelity issues are a problem in the first five years of marriage, as believer said, it doesn't bode well for the future. The best predictor of the future is the past....so anytime someone cheats, the odds that they will cheat again....increases. An young marriage has a whole lot of real estate in front of it.....so a long future to consider. A betrayed spouse must evaluate risk and how much energy they wish to invest in a relationship with a spouse whose already proven untrustworthy.....and that's different with or without children.

When there are no children involved, a betrayed spouse only has to evaluate their own risk for staying or leaving. No matter what they decide....to stay or go....that decision can be made independently and generally with less complication. When you have children....your decisions directly affect those children, not of just you.

Logically, there are more options for a childless BS, because while it may be financially doable to walk out alone <even with little money>.....when you've got children things become WAY more complicated on every level. When you don't have children.....you're evaluating future risk based and how it might affect you and your future children (Should I have children with a guy I don't trust?). That's a completely different decision from evaluating the risks of divorce on children you already have.

Research shows, that children of divorce are at much greater risk for all kinds of serious problems (suicide, sexual abuse, drug use etc). It's another layer of complication that creates a reason to work a little harder or longer for recovery, even if a betrayed spouse might otherwise be willing to move on.

How much easier do you think it is to walk out on cheating spouse when you aren't carrying a baby or comforting heartbroken children? When you don't have to evaluate every man you might date on what kind of step-parent they'll be? Adults have a well of emotional maturity to draw from.....but children are ill equipped to emotionally deal with the breakup of their family.

Children also create a very strong and unbreakable bond that isn't dependent on the marriage. Most spouses are forever linked through parenting whether they stay together or not.....and that inability to completely sever all ties makes divorce more challenging for folks with children. Blended families that include children from previous marriages face enormous challenges too.

Many marriages without children involve younger posters. Younger people without children have the most career options, the best chance of finding a new faithful partner, the most mobility etc. Young people WITH children or older people who may have given up careers to raise children....have more dependence and fear about leaving or trying again. Younger people have also had less time to lose the kind of confidence and self esteem that living in a faithless marriage can create....so they're sometimes more hopeful and strong.

The longer history you have together and the more emotional investment you've made in a marriage.....the harder it is to leave it and the more entwined and enmeshed your lives are. Children magnify those dynamics.

Personally, I know for a fact that if I hadn't already had two babies when my husband cheated....I would never have stayed in my marriage. I felt very obligated and encumbered....and far more scared about facing my future as a single parent than I would have been being a single woman again.

Right now you have the blinders of love on. You love this person and don't see the real flaws they have and whether or not they are really worth it.

I don't have blinders on anymore. I see my ex for who she really is. She's an emotionally immature, psychologically messed up woman. She's a weak mother at best and is very much still in the fog. I don't even find her physically attractive anymore.

One year ago I would have done anything to get her back and restore the family. The only thing keeping me around right now is my kids. Otherwise, I'd count my lucky stars, thank God it happened while I was young, and find someone who has morals.

Sorry, a person who cheats is scum. Some recover from their mistakes, and quit being scum. I'd rather find someone scum free.

And yes, I do have people near and dear to me who have been unfaithful. My father included. I find his behavior disgusting and I'm still mad, 10 years later, over what he did.

We get along great, but I always ask "why?"

Count your blessings. A marriage is nothing more than official and legally binding dating when no kids are involved. There's nothing there to keep you together. Love is not enough. That's for hollywood. Real life love is a heck of a lot more complicated and it takes work.

That advice is typically given for marriages of short duration, and, are childless. If you've only been married 2-3 years, and a spouse commits adultry, in 5 years, a half of your marriage will have been spent in recovery, and recovery is TOUGH. Not a very good way to start a marriage.

That's why the advice is often given to cut and run. Especially with childless marriages of less than 5 years duration. A marriage is much "easier" to dissolve without children.

SD

For marriages with children, you owe it to your children to fight for an intact home. I tried for about 10 years and lost so much self-respect that I wanted to wear a burquah when I went outside.

My son is hurt by the D. And we are not in a nasty D. We don't tear each other down to him. Still, he is hurting.

I would have quit much sooner had it not been for our son.

I 100 % agree with believer on this...

After my relapse last year a BH said I if he was my H he would end the marriage. He said ”after all they are young and there are no children”. I was very upset about this comment and the fact that this person (and probably others) viewed my M as not worth fighting for because of no children... My H and I are almost 11 years married; share a strong bond & emotional investment into each other and have went through and overcame many difficult times and trials together (probably more than many longer married couples). Therefore, me and my H view our M as no less bonding, important and worth fighting, maintaining & working on than M’s with children.

Isn't a M that is childless worth saving as much as a M with children?

To me, short answer is NO

A M with children has to consider the impact upon the children. Many S make sacrifices for their children that they would not make otherwise, bottom line.

Marraige without children, OTOH, comes down to personal decisions. The BS has no external factors to consider other than how much cheating he/she can deal with.

To me, this is a very simple question with an even simpler answer.

When someone arrives on these pages looking for a reason why they are here or if there is hope for them I think the answer is NEVER, EVER “cut your losses”, except in the most dire of circumstances where a persons health might be in jeopardy. To make such a statement is a huge disrespectful judgment at least from my perspective.

“Even a good person can do a bad thing”. It has always seemed to me that this is the fundamental premise by which the ENTIRE Marriage Builder philosophy is based on. Without it, NO marriage should be saved. But if you embrace this concept then I would suggest that you cannot “pick and choose” when it applies.

If a betrayed spouse or a wayward spouse shows up and asks how to save their marriage, then it is a simple matter to provide that person the tools to help them “save their marriage”. Will those tools work? No one here has the ability to foresee the future but WE ALL know that the MB tools are highly effective. But to tell them to “cut their losses” is a preposterous position to me knowing what I now know about affairs.

I have always wondered if the BEST marriage partner is the one who has learned from the experience and horror of having lived through an affair.

If someone wants to save their marriage then it matters little if they are a wayward or betrayed. It matters little if the have been marriage for one year or 30 years. It matters little if there are no children or 10 children. All that matters is what THEY are looking for, what THEY want, and NEVER what YOU want or even worse, what YOU think they should want.

There is truth and there is conjecture. Telling a betrayed spouse to “cut their losses” simply based on the fact that they have no children or have been marriage for only a few years is pure conjecture.

The truth is that if someone wants to attempt to recover then there is a GOOD chance that they may come out the other side with a BETTER marriage. Why would anyone deny them that opportunity? (Unless you don't believe it.)

Mr. G

Mr. G, I hate to tell you this, but that wording is from DR. HARLEY, who has recommended "cutting one's losses" before a bigger investment, ie: children, mortgages, etc, is made.

Of course it is conjecture, because that is all we have. It is only conjecture that it WON'T happen again. So we have to rely upon common sense and probability. One cannot see the future, however that does not mean it's not good, sound advice. Especially, in a very new marriage. If I marry a BUM, it is only "conjecture" that he is going to be a BUM, but common sense dictates that the likelihood is great.

What is NOT "conjecture" is that recovery will be he11, perhaps greater than the he11 of divorce.

Sometimes people make mistakes and sometimes the best path is to get out while the getting is good, rather than dragging innocent children into a very damaged, problematic marriage. That is irresponsible, IMO.

Simple common sense dictates that such problems in a very young marriage are indicators of things to come. Whereas, in a longer term marriage, there is a pattern of behavior that may indicate otherwise. Either way, it is much easier to get out of a marriage with no children and sometimes that is the definition of success. ALL MARRIAGES should not be saved.

I think that is sometimes the soundest advice and is no way a "disrespectful judgment." It is very hard to recover from the damage of an affair and sometimes it is much easier to get out than it is to go through all the trauma of recovery.

Another reason to "cut your losses" if its early in the marriage and there are no children involved.

Read "The Five Love Languages". Chapter 3. It talks about the difference between "love" and "being in love". Typically, the "being in love" stage lasts about the first two years in a relationship...sometimes a little longer.

But during that time, its almost impossible to see the flaws in your partner. It's the "honeymoon" phase. Its when things are supposed to be filled with that glow...when everything is perfect and wonderful.

If your spouse cheats on you during THAT phase...what's going to happen in the later phases, when reality is setting in? When it goes from being a honeymoon, to something that actually requires WORK to maintain? If they cheated when its good...what's going to happen when they're going to be expected to start putting effort into the marriage?

To me, someone who cheats this early is a PRIME suspect for being a serial cheater later. This is why I tend to agree with recommending that the BS run for cover if they find that their spouse has been cheating during the first 2-3 years of a marriage.

We will likely not be on the same page on this one.



I have of course read that passage from the good doctor. That is a consideration that must be evaluated by the couple that is caught in the mess, not by you or me. That advice from Dr. Harley does NOT extend to someone who wants to SAVE his or her marriage. It seems that you have changed the context from my intent. As I see it, the most important piece of the puzzle is to ask the question, “Do you want to save the marriage?” If the answer were “yes” then I would hazard to guess that the best advice is the advice that will best help them to achieve that goal?



But what if he is NOT a bum? “People who have affairs are not necessarily bums.” What if instead of the word “BUM” we substitute “a person of high moral fiber and philanthropic nature”? My point is that such a position makes all the difference yet it seems that it is disregarded in your analysis and I wonder if you think such differences are not the most crucial ones? What I may think are golden attributes in a person are not the same as what you think. An even more important consideration is, “What makes anyone think that “cutting one’s losses” will produce a superior result.



You are of course correct and I don’t disagree, at least on the surface. I would take exception to the premise that the litmus test for divorce is “If there are no children and you have been married a short time then you should divorce”. I would characterize such blanket advice as potentially “off the mark”.

Would I be correct in assuming that your advice in an infidelity situation is to “cut your losses” with ANY marriage that is, let’s say, less than two years with no children?



It becomes a disrespectful judgment when we tell a person what THEY want. Example, “Dear John, you have only been married for one year, you have no children, you need to cut your losses and move on”. I really think that all that matters little because the “meat” is where we give a person the information to make decisions for themselves without telling them what the decision should be.

Of course we know that “recovery” is a difficult path but it is a path that is chosen by two people, not a marriage counselor or anyone else. Give them the facts, and then let them make the choice. After that, support them in every way possible to help them succeed or divorce as the case may be.

Mr. G

Mr G-

Read my post above. Think about what I said in there, about how "love" is in different stages of marriage. If someone cheats when that "love" is at its most unconditional, at its "honeymoon" phase...then does that NOT make it more likely that they'll cheat later, when that "love" requires work and effort to maintain?

How many times have we seen people come here, complaining that their spouse cheated once at the beginning of their marriage...they forgave them...and then it happened AGAIN??

More than I can count.

The poster asked why so many people provide the advice that they do. Those people...including Mel...including me...have provided a response. Should be pretty much all there is to it.

I'd suggest that if you feel differently...when the new people come and ask for advice...post yours, right along with everyone else. Then they can chose what they feel is most appropriate to act upon.

Of course it is not the "best advice, " if it is an unrealistic, stupid goal. One would be irresponsible to help someone achieve such a goal. Dr.Harley recommends this very thing, and we are here, after all to learn and help others learn about his principles.

Sometimes the best advice is to tell the person to run for his life. However, when folks come here and ask for advice, it should be answered by you and me. How you answer is your business, how others answer is up to them. You have no control over that; how others "should" answer is their own business.

However, even if someone WANTS to save their marriage, it does not mean it is a smart thing to do. Nor would it be responsible to give someone false hope in a situation where there should be none. That is doing them no favors, nor does it reflect good judgement or common sense. We should tell folks what we believe is best for them, not necessarily what they want to hear.

Well, you can; I am not interested in doing that. So, no, I would not agree that the "best advice" would be to help someone achieve a goal that is stupid and ill thought out if I thought the best advice would be to cut their losses. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise. Just because someone WANTS to save a bad marriage, does not mean it is the smart thing to do. One does not need to be a psychologist or a "counselor" to recognize a bad situation.


That is not "telling a person what they WANT," [rarely do they WANT to hear that] that is giving someone advice. That is telling a person WHAT THEY SHOULD DO, since they ASKED. Big difference. If I give you directions to the gas station, I am not telling you what you "WANT," I am telling how you SHOULD get there.

Secondly, a disrespectful judgement is a LOVEBUSTER. It is not the goal or purpose of the members here to fill each others LOVE BANK, but to give advice to the best of their ability according to Marriage Builders principles.


Of course the final choice always comes from the people involved. No one has ever said otherwise, unless you imagine we have magical powers here to take away the free will of posters. That being said, others here have the "choice" to advise them to "cut their losses" [or "run for your life!] when they deem appropriate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi there Owl,

I read your post. In it you present a hypothesis that states that a spouse that cheats in the first years of marriage are likely to become serial cheaters.

Based on your hypothesis you conclude that ALL marriages that are stricken by infidelity that are less than two years and without children should dissolve.

It is not that I don’t understand your position or your observations that spouses that have cheated once early in the marriage cheated again latter in the marriage. I accept your observation based on face value although I am not sure that it is accurate. It would be interesting to see if there were studies on this to help confirm your assumptions but I think I can still formulate my rationalizations without such studies.

I am of the position that nearly ALL of those marriages that you note with a second offence would never occurred had the marriage received a good dose of Marriage Builder principles at the time of the first offence. Further, I propose that the primary reason there was a second offence was because there was NO recovery work performed the first time around. Without the right work and tools applied to a recovery there is a reasonable chance that an affair will happen again or that the marriage will dissolve. I believe that.

Let’s say that in your hypothesis you are correct 75 percent of the time and that is a huge number. That means that you are giving the wrong advice 25 percent of the time. But you’re not advising them of what color shirt to wear, no, it is not just a small mistake, you would be advising a spouse to end their marriage. When I came here almost three years ago I was ready to listen to the first person who answered my plea for help. I thank God that JL was there for me. But it wasn’t just him, everyone who answered offered encouragement and hope. They didn’t TELL me what to do; they instead offered the reasons why affairs happen. It made all the difference. The reasons and truths behind affairs NEVER changed because of my age or the number of children. It stood on its own and I made the decision. Shortly thereafter, my wife joined me in our recovery efforts. I could not believe it possible but here I am.

What is your estimation of the percentages of marriages that are saved when MB principles are applied? Dr. Harley says that number is 100 percent. But it is certainly true that NOT all marriages can be saved nor should all marriages be saved. We already know that EVERY marriage is lost where one spouse elects to not return. It happens all the time. There is significant number of “Plan Bs” out there. A representative number of those marriages will end in divorce. It takes both partners to save a marriage, we already know that. And guess what; if both partners are willing to work to save the marriage then it is saved every single time without fail. What is so troubling to me is that someone would actively participate to deny someone that opportunity solely based on the length of their marriage and the number of children.

Worse than that, when we advise someone to divorce as a proactive response, we lose them from these boards and they do not benefit from the Marriage Builder principles.



Sure, but I don’t normally offer advice. And when I do I almost always offer the hard truth behind it. In the case we are discussing I hope that I would be wise enough to ask them what THEY want to happen with their marriage. Regardless, it is much more constructive for me to make a good logical case with you than it is trying to reach each individual.

I hope that I’ve done a good job in presenting my case.

Mr. G

Melody,



I of course, have no objection here. I am merely presenting my arguments to you for your consideration. I am hopeful that you find nothing wrong in my motivations.



Yes, yes, yes! You bring up issues where we have no disagreement. Perhaps the following two illustrations will better make my point.

Case No. 1
“Hi, I married my high school sweetheart when I was twenty years old. We have been married for 18 months and have no children. The problem is that I have just found out that he had sex with a woman the night of his bachelor party. I am absolutely sick about this but I still love him and he says he loves me. Is there hope for us?”

Case No. 2
“Hi, I married my high school sweetheart when I was twenty years old. We have been married for 18 months and have no children. The problem is that he has been sleeping with his old girlfriend for the past year. I am absolutely sick about this but I still love him even though he says that he does not love me. Is there hope for us?”

If you offer the same advice to both cases then we are indeed at different ends of the spectrum.



We continue to differ in the definition of “cut your losses” and when it is most appropriate to do so. I thought that we were discussing infidelity in marriages that are young and without children as the SOLE reason for divorce as a legitimate final act. I somehow think you might be changing that position. Perhaps I have it wrong; are you saying that anyone who wants to save a marriage that is young and without children is “stupid and ill thought out”?

DEFINITION
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other.

I think that I have discovered that a DJ is just as harmful in our daily discourse with our friends and coworkers, as are angry outbursts and the like. They perhaps have even more significance and effect with the raw emotions of the newly betrayed.



Again, this is not something that I am in disagreement with.

Mr. G

No, I am responding to your statement that the "best advice" is always to help the person achieve his goal, regardless of the intelligence of that goal. Sometimes it can be stupid and ill thought to save such a marriage, IMO.


Probably so, but that is the beauty of this forum. We all have different perspectives and that is a great benefit to any poster on this forum.


First off, telling someone what Dr. Harley believes, ie: that young marriages without children are better off not saving, is not "imposing a system of values and beliefs on the other." It is merely imparting his opinion. We are here for the purpose of learning Dr. Harley's opinions; that is hardly a lovebuster, MrG. If that is the standard, then you are guilty of a dj yourself for merely expressing your objection to "cutting ones' losses."

Further, this misses the point of lovebusters altogether. The purpose of avoiding lovebusters is to protect a LOVE BANK and build feelings of love. We are not doing any such thing with our co-workers, board members, etc. Telling someone to divorce and "cut their losses" is hardly a disrespectful judgment, but often very sound, loving advice.

hmmmmmmm, now I am even more confused about your position, MrG. You stated in your previous post the situation should not matter, what should matter is if the person WANTED TO save their marriage.


You stated the situation DOES NOT MATTER and now you say it DOES. In case No 1 and Case No 2, all that should matter, according your initial standard is what THEY WANT.

So, which is it?

Wow, I must have missed the whole point of MarriageBuilders. Imagine that. I always thought the purpose was to build marriages, and not worry too much whether or not they SHOULD be built.

I can think of a number of marriages here that I don't think should have been saved. I can think of some that I believe that the BS was just afraid to go on alone, but might have led a happier life WITHOUT saving the marriage.

There are a few that I post to where, if I were married to that particular WS, I would not make the effort to save the marriage. But since they are in the marriage, and they DO want to save it, I offer support and ideas.

Obviously in cases where there is a threat to the safety of a spouse or children, I advise folks to leave.

In my everyday life, I see some marriages that I can't figure out WHY they stay together. But I still support the marriage itself.

Gee, I must have missed the part where it says ALL MARRIAGES SHOULD BE SAVED at any cost. Guess we oughta let Dr. Harley know too.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Believer, so you are now changing this position you posted at the beginning of this thread?

believer wrote:

Sometimes or all of the time? Under what circumstances, in your opinion, would it be stupid and ill thought to save such marriages? That is, I think, the crux of this discussion.



Of course, you can shock me and point out the Doctor’s specific quote but I am quite sure that his actual words have quit a different meaning and context. Does he believe and did he say that “young marriages without children are better off not saving”? If I am wrong you have my apology in advance. I believe he qualifies that statement with words like “sometimes” or “under certain circumstances”.

The second item in the above quote is your assertion that you are merely “imparting his (Dr. Harley’s) opinion” by advising young couples without children to divorce. I think that the idea of divorce cannot be adequately defended just on the basis of youth and the absence of children. I can’t help but believe that any decision or advice for a couple to divorce is much, much more complex then the isolated part, “young without children”.



I didn’t know that I was here for the purpose of learning Dr. Harley’s opinions. Thank you for setting me straight on that one. I’ll clear up my motivations for being here; I am here because my life was touched by infidelity. Through this experience I came to understand some basic truths regarding love and marriage. These truths are the reason I was able to recover and save my relationship with my wife. They are the reason that she was able to return to the marriage. I stop here on occasion to pass that wisdom to others who wish to SAVE their marriages touched by infidelity. I don’t think Dr. Harley’s views are opinions at all. Rather, I think that he has identified certain philosophical truths. That all marriages that are young and without children is alone enough to defend a divorce is a position that I reject.

Talk to you latter,

Mr. G

No, I don't think so at all. We are not discussing hypothetical cases, but a general principle. And in principle you have stated that any marriage should be saved just because a person "WANTS" it. This is what I object to. Discussing hypothetical cases is a rabbit chase down the rabbit hole that just diverts from the issue at hand, IMO.


You are free to post the quote to support your opinion that his actual words have a "different meaning and context."


But how does that substantiate your assertion that it is a lovebuster, "disrespectful judgement," to tell someone to "cut their losses?" I am not getting the connection, MrG. Sorry.. It seems you are trying to change the subject, to be quite honest.

You are wearing me out. And Melody how is it that they come to learn what they want. How is it that ANYONE comes to learn new things? It is through education. Here, that education comes from folks like you and me.

Give them the tools and they will make the best decision for themselves. I believe that I have been consistent in this position. You take the horse to the water Melody, whether the horse drinks or not depends on well they learned their lessons. The tools I refer to are the MB principles. If you give them that gift then they will not need your advice to divorce. Further, if they have those principles at hand and utilize them then they will ALWAYS make the right decision. It is such a perfect package that it really defies all objection.

Did you think that I would answer your inquiry in any other way?



Is that what I said? Why do you feel you need to twist my argument into something that is indefensible? You know that I said NOTHING even close to that. You lead readers to think that that is my view when in fact it is not.

Mr. G

No, I said that to believer, not you.

Do I believe ALL marriages CAN be saved??? YES
Do I believe ALL marriages SHOULD be saved??? NO

I don't post to people in the second category generally.
I have advised some people to cut bait and run.

I have also respected the posters decision to try and save their marriage if that is what they want.

Giving them a sunshine enema doesn't help them. It may be what they want to hear but it doesn't help them.

I have also urged people in savable situations to get a grip and press on when they feel like giving up.

At the end of the day, every person seeking advice makes their own choice as to what advice to accept and what advice to reject. It is their life and their decision.

All this tip toeing around the answer.
Mr. G... I will tell you why I advise some people to leave a M when no kids are involved....because some WS are no good pos and they don't deserve the ability to take years away from their spouse. At times a BS is so wounded that they are not thinking clearly....at times they need someone to tell them that they should get away from a scum bag cad. No different that a woman that is being physically abused by a mate that she has an unhealthy relationship with...she may say she wants to save it...but I am not about to enable her staying in a horrible situation by telling her how.
You come across like some live and let live, learned..accept anyone type of person. Frankly, it comes across as anything but genuine. The purpose of this site is to save marriages...not to enable bad behavior. You have run your little agenda even at the expense of protecting children from abuse...after all, according to you...since a person initially came here to discuss marriage, child abuse should not be discussed even though the poster brought it into the discussion. It is not disrespectful...or a judgment to offer advice to someone here seeking it....it is incredibly disrespectful to give someone bad advice to help them remain in a bad situation.

I guess this is just me running my mouth again.

Somedays your mouth makes a lot of sense, friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Score: MEDC 1 MrG 0

Pass the popcorn Mel.

That is a very interesting way of putting it BigK and I don't mean that in a good way.

That seems to me to be what half these "discussion" posts end up being - a contest between certain people who always have to be "right". I really can't see how they help anyone build their marriage in any way, shape or form. In fact, if it's an example of how to communicate in a marriage it's not a very good example. Living with someone with a constant need to be the one who is always "right" must be exhausting, frustrating and demoralising.

Actually Jen, I thought MEDC had an excellent post.

You see, what I do is read everybody's opinion, take it on board and make my own decisions.

I don't feel the need to be RIGHT about what I think about any of it. I know I've formed an opinion and I'll probably state it but I don't need to force my opinion on someone else and tell them my opinion is the only correct one.

Is that right?

Generally speaking I guess that's right.

I don't talk in absolutes. I'm human, there's probably a post somewhere where I shoved my opinion down someone's throat - who knows? I wouldn't die of shock if someone found one that showed just that.

I don't think there's one thing on earth I'm sure enough about to tell everyone that my way of thinking is the only way. None of us has seen the big picture yet. "For now we see through a glass darkly."

Thanks for expressing your opinion Jen.

But...you're not really sure of that, are you? I will keep that in mind when reading your posts. Absolutely.

The Bible from which you quote has a LOT of absolutes in it actually.

wow Jen...pretty odd statement by you...
let's see...
I KNOW my way of thinking is the ONLY right way in many things...
child abuse
racism
animal abuse
infidelity
sexual abuse
abortion
murder
etc....

don't need the big picture to KNOW there is only one right way to look at these things

Are you saying I don't read everyone's opinion Jen? Or that I don't make my own decisions and have my own opinions?

I've crossed swords with MEDC many times and I have agreed with him many times.

Are you saying I am not allowed to express agreement with someone's opinion?

Let me get this straight, there is no "right" opinion except for the opinion that there are no "right" opinions? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

My only question: is dat right? **snort** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

IMO the purpose of avoiding certain lovebusters like DJ’s and angry outbursts is not only to protect a Love Bank and building feelings of love with a loved one, but to also:

1) Build and/or keep good relations with fellow human beings (whether it’s professional or personal) like co-workers, friends, acquaintances, members of a community or board etc. and treat them with basic human decency and respect.

2) To show basic human decency and respect to fellow human beings we don’t necessarily want to build and/or maintain relations with like strangers, people we have just met etc.

Obviously some of the things on Dr Harley’s list of Love Busters (like avoiding Independent Behavior) will only apply to the spouse and other close loved ones, but IMO some of those things like avoiding DJ's and Angry Outbursts applies to decent and respectful behavior towards fellow human beings as well.

IMO it’s possible to treat people with decency and respect even though we might not always agree with their opinions, beliefs and/or actions. It’s even possible to have heated arguments & disagreements etc. without being attacking and disrespectful. Someone can covey their opinions and disagreement to another person without behaving that way. To act otherwise is abusive and speak volumes about such a person IMO.


Hmmmm, MEDC also like to call people names like “racist” even if he don’t know if it’s true and even if he don’t have (or find out) all the facts BEFORE expressing out loud on a public message board such a disrespectful & hostile assumption/opinion. MEDC for all his bravado in protecting the innocent is abusive himself. I wonder if he only have one right way to look at that as well... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Suzet - I am quite happy with Dr Harley's definition of Love Busters - I don't need anyone to extend that definition.

That's okay BigK. However, I’m free to express my opinion...and IMO decent, respectful behavior in our interactions with others is not just reserved for ones spouse and loved ones.

I would totally agree with you there Suzet.

A few questions for Melody:

How long were you married when you discovered your husband's infidelity, and when in your relationship did he start cheating on you? Did you have children with him?

Suzet is just a (f???)WS that still hasn't informed one of her victims of what she did. That keeps the door open for future escapades with her(the BW) H though. If Suzet were to notify the woman of what she did there is a good chance the woman would take Suzets play toy away(you know, the one she still works with and bumps into by "accident") and she would be left without that option should she once again become bored with her H.

WOW... I can't believe she wrote this since when it comes to decent and respectful behavior towards the victim of her affair...the one in the dark...Suzet's spouse is the only one that seemed to matter...everyone else be damned.

Oh, I don't know, Suzet, there is a huge difference between general politeness and the way I treat my spouse. A lovebuster, by definition, is something that robs the lovebank and should be avoided for that reason. I have no lovebank with my coworker. [most of us don't] I think it is not a good idea to try and fill my coworkers lovebank lest I end up in a workplace affair.

That certainly does not mean that I shouldn't treat him with respect and courtesy. But the manner in which I speak to my spouse versus my coworkers is SUPPOSED to be very different in tone and content, lest I would suggest you are doing something wrong.

But what it most certainly does not mean is that its a "lovebuster" to suggest to someone on an anonymous board to "cut their losses." That is a gross exaggeration of the intent and meaning of lovebusters. Telling someone to "cut their losses" is not a "lovebuster" by any definition, anywhere, but often just sound advice. I think some folks take the "lovebuster" philosophy a tad bit too far around here.

In my first one, I had been married 19 years and had 2 children. In the 2nd one, I had been married 4 months and had no children. He had been cheating ALL ALONG.

Thank you Melody.

One other question: are you glad you stayed in your second marriage?

Why do you ask?

I ask because earlier in this thread you said this:



My husband cheated on me while we were engaged, but I didn't know it until last year (we've been married 16 years). He cheated during our marriage too. He was unfaithful from 1989- 2002, and I didn't know it. When he confessed, I thought I should divorce him because he cheated so early in our relationship. I thought there was no way he could change.

My husband came here for help, because I thought there was no way we could recover and I wanted a divorce. So many people posted to my husband with kind words and encouragement, but one poster especially stood out to us. He was Mr. Goodstuff. With just one post on my husband's thread, he showed us that there was hope. My husband and I are so grateful to him.

I also combed through the MB site to find stories with similarities to our situation. I thought I remembered that your second husband had cheated very early in your marriage- your story gave me hope because you seemed so happy now.

When I read this thread, I was surprised by your words and thought I remembered your situation wrong. That's why I asked.

Thanks for answering Melody. Your story does give me hope for my own marriage. We've been in recovery for a year, and things are looking pretty good for us.

Thanks again.
~Saturn

SR, your experience is exactly why we recommend that people run for their lives when they discover adultery early on in the marriage or before the marriage, so that they don't have to experience adultery again. Your experience is exactly why Dr. Harley recommends cutting one's losses.

If you asked me if I would marry my H again and go through this, the answer would be NO. Adultery is as painful as the death of a child, SR. It is the worst thing that can happen to someone.

When I contacted my pastor about my new H's adultery, he did not tell me to try and work it out, he very much agreed that I had made a mistake and should cut my losses. Our Marriage Builders counselor at the church told me the same thing.

They would have been irresponsible tell someone in a brand new marriage, 4 months, no kids, with a man who has been cheating the ENTIRE TIME and who married her under FRAUDULENT PRETENSES, that she should stay in the marriage.

Sure, things ended up working out, but that does not mean that wasn't the very most sound advice. I did not try to save my marriage, SR, I had ended it and thrown him out. It was HE who stepped up to the plate and proved himself over time. Would I marry him again? NO. Am I happy it worked out? YES. But I would not do it all over again.

You did not work with your husband to recover your marriage?

Oh no, not at all initially. I was not interested in saving this marriage. I agreed to go to counseling a few times with him so I could say "I tried" before I gave him the bums rush.

Did you do any work to recover your marriage?

Hi Mel, thanks for your response! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would like to clear out a few issues to make my point clearer to you:

I agree there is a huge difference between general politeness and the way I treat my spouse. Lovebusters with our spouses should indeed be avoided for that reason (to prevent withdrawal from the love bank and to maintain romantic love). But IMO that’s not the only reason I should avoid lovebusters with my spouse: I also do it simply because, as a fellow human and Christian, I have the obligation and desire to treat him with decency and respect. So, even if love busters would not deplete his love bank for me, it’s still expected from me to treat him with decency and respect.

The same with other fellow human beings like co-workers, friends, strangers, acquaintances etc. With them I certainly don’t avoid certain love busters like DJ’s and angry outburst to fill a love bank, but simply because as fellow human beings they need to be treated with decency and respect as well. That’s why I will even treat a person I meet once and will never see again with decency and respect.

I do have love banks not only for my H, but for my family, close friends (of the same sex) and some dear colleagues (of the same sex) who are friends as well… Although it’s not a romantic love banks, it’s still love banks. In fact, I think we all have “love banks” for every person we know. That’s why we like some people and don’t like others. Simply because with some the “love bank” is in the red and with others the “love banks” is positive. The moment we meet a stranger, the “love bank” is totally neutral – neither with any positive or negative units. The people I don’t like and have negative “love banks” for I will still treat with respect and courtesy simply because it’s the decent and right thing to do. With friends and family I will try to fill their love banks because I want to maintain/build the family bond and/or friendships. I will not do that with a opposite sex person because that can indeed trigger romantic love and lead to an A (as happened during my friendship with FOM).

Agree with this completely.

Agree with this too. I was not referring and/or thinking about the “cut their losses” comment when I made that post.

Suzet, I very much agree with what you said. It is a sort of lovebank, but not the SAME, because the principles of this program are designed to build romantic love. That being said, we can say things to our friends, acquaintences, stranger on an internet board, teller at the bank that we are not going to say to our spouse. I will likely be much more FORTHRIGHT with a person on this board than I would with my husband because it is not my goal to develop romantic love with my fellow board members.

Agree Mel, as long as being forthright with a person on this board (or others) is not accompanied by attacks and disrespectfulness (and other abusive behavior) towards that person. For me, the main reason and goal to avoid such behavior is because as a Christian and fellow human being, I have the obligation to try to the best of my ability to treat others with decency and respect. Life is full of challenges and sometimes it becomes difficult when someone starts to treat me disrespectfully because then my instinctive reaction is to react in kind, but even in that case, it’s not right or a justification for me to react in kind towards that person. (Sometimes I still fail! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) And surely the goal of this must not be to build romantic love with others other than the spouse, but to honor God’s instruction to “love they neighbor” e.g. treat others with decency and respect and also communicate hard truths (what people need to hear) without being disrespectfull.

NS: Mel, I do think you are one of the people here who can be very forthright without being disrespectful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know sometimes I wonder this myself. What am I fighting for? We have no children and are still pretty young. We have only been married for 5 years. But we have been together for 12. So there are a few years invested. As time has gone on I relaize that we have both done things wrong, but bottom line is that I'm not sure I can take my husbands flirting and hanging out with other women anymore.

MEDC,

Almost everything, EVERYTHING that you have attributed to me, I have NOT said. Did you read anything I wrote?

From the tone of your post it appears to me that you find my position objectionable, even though it appears to me that you do not understand my position. You are under no obligation to like me or even give me the time of day but at the very least if you are going to quote my views you can at least do it accurately.



Is this what I said? I’m sorry but your reading comprehension needs work. I’ve never said anything even close to what you imply is my position.



Yes, the purpose of this site is to SAVE marriage. So save them. So why attack me for doing JUST THAT. You make the statement and then everything that follows is in direct assault on the very position that you say you subscribe too and that I am defending. And who here is advocating, “enabling bad behavior”. Not me. Of course, it would be interesting to understand what is your definition of “bad behavior”.

On top of it all, you accuse me of not reading as “genuine”, whatever that means. As this is your second time that you felt the need to throw a “slam” my way (the first time you called my recovery “fishy”). I must ask what is your true motivation concerning me, my posts and the philosophy that I subscribe too? MEDC, I NEVER offer anyone hope where there is none. The FACT is there is almost always hope in cases of infidelity. It is the great exception when there is “no hope”. Why is it that such a position is so offensive to some here, to you for instance?



What is my “little agenda”? Please tell me. Your cruelty knows no limits. You have now tagged me with being an advocate of “child abuse” so that I can protect my “little agenda”. Somewhere, someplace you must have been hurt real bad by someone. Do you think that I would advise a spouse to place themselves or their children in harms way? I have NO agenda, do you? I am obviously on your agenda.



That is the only thing that you wrote that makes any sense at all. Unfortunately, it is not germane to the discussion of advising divorce to couples solely based on their length of marriage and their number of exemptions, unless of course you subscribe to the above sentence that I reject.

Mr. G

Sorry, Mr. G... my comprehension is just fine....
perhaps YOU need to read what I wrote.

And I never said you were an advocating child abuse...just that you have steered a thread away from a discussion of potential child abuse on the part of the poster away from that and back to your agenda of helping her with her marriage when there were more important things on the table...child abuse.

Get your facts straight Mr. G.

"Give them the tools and they will make the best decision for themselves."

IMHO...the BEST tool is at times the ability to see the WS as the POS that they might be. Again, the BS is very wounded and not able to clearly see at times(again...as in the case with physical abuse). There are some BS that are suffering year after year of abuse...be it affairs or physical abuse...these marriages are cancers that should be removed. When that is the case...the best advice is to suggest divorce. The point of this thread... no kids, young marriage... is that there are very few reasons to tolerate the most offensive assault imaginable when their are no kids involved. I happen to agree with that...but if someone wants to stay...at the very least they are given a variety of opinions and options from which to pick. Yours, mine, Mels...etc...they can choose to drink the one that best fits their needs.
Even the good Dr. has clearly said that faced with adultery, he would leave. Throwing that out there for a wounded BS is a service...since they may feel trapped by their overwhelmed emotions.

Because it is not a fact...it is your opinion and it is wrong. It is not a GREAT EXCEPTION when there is no hope.

Where and how did I do that? I have no idea what you are referring to. Could you show me what you are talking about?



Yes, I have read where he said exactly that. That happens to be the very same claim that I once made (before I was actually faced with it). Regardless, I believe that the good Doctor has developed his relationship with his wife to preclude the possibility that he will EVER engage in an affair. As I hope others have done that frequent these pages.

I said:


To which you responded:


I did not state an “opinion”; I stated a FACT backed by the findings of MB and the Harleys. As you are a reader of this website you are undoubtedly familiar with the Doctor’s observation that MOST marriages that are touched by infidelity do not end in divorce. Beyond that, you will find that the Doctor has noted in his own practice that 100 percent of couples that follow MB principles, in fact, save their marriages. Yet just because a marriage fails or ends in divorce is STILL not a sure sign that there was NEVER any hope of reconciliation.

If that is not enough, then run down the list of names RIGHT HERE on these forums. You are member number 3285192. I wonder how many of those members came here without hope and left here with great promise and hope. I used the phrase “great exception” to describe situations that have virtually NO hope. But what I really mean is that 100 percent of couples that follow the MB principles will not only save their marriage, but also actually improve it. What a corny idea, eh? Forgive the DJ but you must think that I have my head in the clouds to believe such nonsense.

So let me say it again,

The FACT is there is almost always hope in cases of infidelity. It is the great exception when there is “no hope”.



While there is no doubt that “SOME” marriages should end, the lone fact that a couple is young and without children is NOT sufficient reason to end a marriage unless there are other extenuating circumstances or that is the exclusive desire of the partners. You see, it is my opinion that the “glass is half full”, it has always been “half full” and it will be “half full” tomorrow.

Mr. G

and there's the rub.... COUPLES that follow the MB priciples. In a good number of cases the WS has no intention of following through with anything but divorce. This, in and of itself, will knock out the theory that with great exceptions there is hope. See....it doesn't matter what some BS do....their WS will never come around. So, it is not a FACT....it MAY be a fact that the great number of couples (both people) using MB principles will recover...but that is not what you have stated.



and there are a great number...even still on these boards that wanted to recover and use the MB methods... and they are divorced.

I also think the good doctor is aware enough about infidelity to KNOW he would leave if it happened.

The conversation I referenced was with the woman that slapped her daughter in the face while the child was in the tub....you can find the reference in your history.(if it remains as she was advised to remove that info and others followed suit...perhaps you, I'm not sure).

You are exactly right, Mr. G.

And actually Dr. Harley himself said that if his wife cheated, he would have divorced her and be done, kids or no kids.

What is so interesting to me is that he made marriage building his life work. Now how does THAT fit into the different opinions here?

In my time here I have seen a lot of miracles. There have been marriages saved that I never thought in a million years would survive. There were others where the BS did an excellent job following the MB plan, and they ended up divorced. So it is a crap shoot in many cases.

However, barring abuse, I think it is always good to give it a try. My marriage didn't make it, but the stuff I learned here has changed my life, changed the way I relate to others, and made me very content.

Steering the conversation back to the original question:

Working it out with an adulterer is a big gamble. There's incentive when kids are involved and yes, doing it for the children is a valid argument. Trying, in that case, involves putting in a big effort to fix the problems, which should lead to a healthy, happy home for the kids.

Otherwise, there is NO incentive to work it out and you will always have nagging suspicion in back of your mind.

This is he11 for kids to go through. There's no sugar coating it.

I too would like to bring the conversation back to the original subject, and perhaps get some insight from others on my situation.

I am going through this right now.

At what point am I "done?"

WH and I just had our 3rd anniversary, no kids. Half of that time has been spent either apart due to military deployment or with him in the throes of the affair (they met while deployed.) Affair started in Oct 2006, I found out in Dec, and it's still going on. He moved out 6 months ago, but we still talk almost daily.

He's also now coming to the realization that he's got abandonment issues (worse than the normal ones) due to events of his childhood surrounding his adoption.

I care deeply for him, but I'm starting to wonder whether I'm more holding on to the idea of who I think he can be rather than who he really is.

Even if the affair were to end today, he still has an uphill battle with depression and abandonment.

I struggle with the feeling of giving up on him, but I also can't sit around waiting forever.

Well, Kamakura, your situation is difficult. I don't think you will ever regret trying to save the marriage. You will be able to look back and know that you didn't just throw in the towel.

On the other hand, if you desire to have children, you can't wait forever. I waited almost 4 years, but I already had my children.

Instead of working on his issues, your hubby had an affair.
I'm sure the affair will end because most do. But then he STILL has the issues to work on. If you want children, you would probably want to be reasonably sure that the marriage, and his problems are fixed. So that adds another several years.

Divorcing will take some time, and then meeting someone else will take more time. So I think it is very difficult to decide what to do - that is - IF you want children.

Believer, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes, I do want kids, which is part of what complicates this.

I would not stay married to him solely to have children. As you said, he would need to have a firm grip on his issues before I would dream of bringing kids into the equation.

Right now I'm starting to lean towards a legal separation just so that I can start to sort out my feelings and decide whether or not I want to keep waiting.

We actually have joked that maybe what we need is to get divorced and then just start over. Who knows, maybe that's what we'll do.

As S. Harley told me in IC, he dislikes the name MarriageBuilding in as much as it conjures up the image that they believe the marriage should be maintained no matter what. He prefers HappinessBuilding.

As I understood him, his goal was to help people be happy. What he discovered was that in a vast majority of people, the single thing that had the largest impact on their happiness was having a connected relationship with another person, i.e. a good marriage.

Thus, if he wanted to have the most impact on the most people's happiness, he should excel at providing guidance on how to have a good marriage. I imagine his expertise in infidelity comes from the fact that infidelity, is the most challenging obstacles to a good marriage that he faced in the couples he counseled.

Back on point, I have a childless M. I never viewed people saying to me "since you don't have kids, you should get out" as a statement as to the value of my M. I simply viewed it as an acknowledgement that recovery may be too hard or immpossible because my WS will lack significant motivation to change.

Many things can motivate a WS to change. Maybe they still love the BS, maybe that don't want to pay alimony, maybe they realize they were wrong. But in general experience the love of and desire to care for children is usually the biggest motivator. Absent that, many people will conclude, along with other factors, that your odds of recovery are very low and thus advise you to move on.

All that said, it doesn't really matter. Most people said to me when I first posted here, that your chances of recovering your M a very low. I read and to be honest I agreed with them. But I still wanted try. All I had to do was respond with a yes, I agree with what your saying about my odds, but I'd still like to try. I never seemed to have a shortage of advice.

Some might argue that those people did me a disservice. That they should have said, I will offer you no advice because I think what you are trying to achieve is pure fantasy. I don't want to see you get your hopes up. I've never really believed in that logic. That logic denies my own capability and attempts to place the responsibility for my actions on the shoulders of the people who have advised me. This is clearly not the case. I tend to prefer rather than some attempt to spare me from getting my hopes up, that they just say "I wouldn't get your hopes up becuase I don't think you have a chance. But if your going to try no matter what, here's what I would do." That way I have full information about and the responsibility for what I choose to do. I came to this board for information, not instruction.

Finally, I don't understand this obsession with alignment and conformity. The strength of places like this is its diversity. It takes different approaches, styles, and advice to convey the information.

Amen, rprynne, well said, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Smartiepants here

Jumping back in as the original poster on this question, my tack is this. I'm in Plan B now. In N.Carolina, you must wait for one year after being separated (defined as not living with each other), before you can file for divorce. Assuming WH hangs in there for the long haul with OW, neither he nor I can file for divorce until 6/08. If the A is still going or if WH hasn't done some work to figure out his issues, I will file for divorce June of next year (if he doen't beat me to it -- which would be unlikely for him.)

The way I see it, by that time I can say I gave it my best Plan B in an effort to save the M, but I don't want to wait for years and years for him. So if he doesn't come around, I can feel good about continuing a better life without him.

God Bless North Carolina. There are some crazy states where you can be divorced - start to finish - in 6 weeks.

Chances are good that you WH will be back. I forget the statistics on the length of affairs, but the vast majority end before a year.

Suzet is actually correct about most of this.

Except there is no such thing as a Romantic Love Bank.

Romantic Love is triggered when the LB reaches a certain threshold.

Everyone we know has an "account" in our love bank. Our interactions with that person control the balance and if enough love units are deposited (through meeting EN's) we can fall in love with that person.

In my interactions here on MB I am not trying to build my account in anyone's LB except MrsK's.

Well BigK I will certainly not fall in love with my family members or friends of the same sex and they with me unless they are homosexually or bisexually orientated! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> For that reason, I will not try to fill the love banks of people of the opposite sex or allow them to fill mine (except blood related family members and my father-in-law). I restrict my attempts to fill love banks accounts to my H, family members and friends of the same sex. But I do avoid certain love busters like DJ’s and angry outbursts with ALL people...simply because as a Christian, I have a obligation to treat fellow human beings with basic human decency and respect...even during my interactions with them here on MB. That (trying to treat fellow board members with basic human decency and respect) have nothing to do with trying to fill a love bank with them.

So although I agree there is not really such thing as a Romantic Love Bank (I can see how the use of that term is not correct) I do think there are different types of love banks e.g. with some love banks romantic love can be triggered when enough love units are deposited and with others not...depending on ones sexual orientation. Basically that was what I meant and tried to convey with the term “Romantic Love Bank”... With some love banks Romantic Love will NEVER be triggered no matter how many love units are deposited.

Dr Harley makes no such distinction Suzet.

The key point is that Meeting the MOST IMPORTANT EN's, some of which are INTIMATE EN;s should only be met by your spouse. That way you only fall in love with them.

There are no different types of "love banks". That does not make sense and is not what Harley says. If you ensure your most important needs (the ones that deposit the MOST love units) are only met by your spouse, no other person will be able (permitted by you) to reach the Romantic Love threshold.

Now, "Love Busters" - DJ's, AO's etc relate to the LB in that they WITHDRAW units and cause you to be the cause of your spouses's unhappiness. This is a far cry from "pissing" someone off on an anonymous Internet message board. Some people on this board are truth averse and need a good kick up the [censored] to get their head on straight.

Sorry about your sit Kamamura. Being where I am now, I would say cut your losses.

Obviously, a poster made a good point about motivation for change. But for me, there is also another.

How could I stay in the M and ever bring children into the M?

I can save money, buy houses, cars etc because these are all material possessions. Certainly, there is risk of going bankrupt or whatever. But, in the end, it is only money. It is not the life of an innocent child we are talking about.

Therefore, after the pain of the A, I don't know how with good common sense I could bring a child into this world considering the inherent risk of the M.

It depends on the circumstances - there are IMO no hard and fast rules. Not all, maybe not even many FWS's will be serial offenders. It isn't a character issue with most IMO.

You are saying it is hopeless and I vehmently disagree. (I have grown kids and no barrow to push here BTW)

[color:"blue"] Inside all of us is a Love Bank with accounts in the names of everyone we know.

We like those with positive Love Bank balances and dislike those with negative balances. But if an account reaches a certain threshold, a very special emotional reaction is triggered -- romantic love. We no longer simply like the person -- we are in love. It's a feeling of incredible attraction to someone of the opposite sex.[/color]

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html

Bigk, IMO Dr Harley does make a distinction above in the sense that he specifically refers/focuses on love banks accounts that can reach a certain threshold that will trigger romantic love with an opposite sex person (or same sex if homosexually or bisexually orientated). So obviously there are differences in the type of love we can develop for certain people and that’s why we will never be able to feel romantic love for a person of the same sex if heterosexually orientated or for blood related family members even if they also meet some of our most important EN’s like conversation, affection, creational companionship, admiration, honesty & openness etc.

That’s why Dr Harley makes it clear on his video clip piece about infidelity and how to A proof a M that we should not allow any ember of the opposite sex to meet any of our intimate EN’s. There are some EN’s that can be met appropriately by more people than just the spouse for example through family members or friends of the same sex. According to Dr Harley (on the video clip piece) the four intimate EN’s are 1) intimate conversation; 2) affection; 3) recreation companionship and 4) SF. All of them (except SF and intimate affection) can be met by the spouse as well as same sex friends and certain family members.

Regarding Love Busters – I know on this website (with regards to marriage building) the purpose of avoiding those behavior is to prevent the withdrawl of love units from the spouse's love bank and be the cause of his/her unhappiness, but IMO the avoidance of some behavior on the Love Busters list like DJ’s and angry outbursts, also applies to basic decent and respectful behavior towards fellow human beings. A general desire and personal decision to try and treat all others with basic human decency and respect have not necessarily anything to do with trying to prevent the withdrawal of love units from someone’s love bank. That can play a role yes, but it’s not the main thing here. As a Christian, I have a obligation to treat people I dislike or who even treat me badly, with decency and respect too.

Well, as long as “pissing” someone off and “a good kick up in the [censored]” is not accompanied by posting in an abusive, attacking, insulting, inflammatory manner intended to shame the recipient, I will be okay with it… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Suzet - it is you drawing that distinction, not Dr Harley.
The reason all our relationships do not reach the romantic love threshold is because, if we are smart, we don't allow people other than our spouse to meet our most important EN's, certainly not our intimate EN's which make the most LB deposits.

Perhaps we wouldn't be having this arguement if Dr Harley didn't call it a "love" bank.


Well not to put too fine a point on it, but your opinion of My posting style doesn't concern me in the least, nor does your approval or otherwise.

Big K
It may not be hopeless, each situation is different. It is also possibly not a charachter flaw. However, there is more likelihood of that since it is in the early years of M. It is much easier to get throught those than the later years

Regardless, would I hope that the M partner did not have a charachter flaw or move on? I would move on.

He does IMO Bigk, otherwise he would say that we should not allow ANY other person other than our spouse to meet our EN’s. But that’s not what he says, he say we must A proof our M by not allowing a person of the opposite sex to meet any of our intimate or most important EN’s. Obviously our spouses must be the ones who meet our most important EN’s the best and most often (that's common sense) but it doesn't mean that some of them can't be met by people like familiy members or same sex friends as well.

Agree, but the main thing here is that we should not allow a person of the opposite sex to meet our most important EN’s and intimate EN’s. Dr Harley says nothing about family members and same sex friends. He doesn’t because it’s not possible to develop romantic love for them unless one is homosexually or bisexually orientated. Obviously some intimate EN’s like SF and intimate affection should only be met by the spouse (that’s common sense too).

But I wasn’t talking about “posting styles” or even referred to YOUR way of posting bigk… I was talking in general...

Anyway, if posting in an abusive, attacking, insulting, inflammatory manner intended to shame the recipient is now called a certain “posting style” <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> then I agree with the following excellent post by another poster (taken from another thread):

[color:"blue"] Posting "Style". What an interesting phrase.

This morning on my way to work... I cut someone off in traffic, turned without using my blinker, and drove 30mph in a 50mph zone so that I could finish listening to a song I like on the radio before I reached my destination. A whole long line of cars formed behind me and boy did they look anrgy. But hey, I wasn't being self-absorbed. That's just my driving "style".

During movies, I like to talk to my friends nice and loud. Rude? Naw! That's just my moviegoing "style".

I love to chew with my mouth open, eat mashed potatoes with my hands and fart at the dinner table. It's not the least bit obnoxious. That's just my eating "style".

And I just love to ridicule, shame, and put down my kids... oh, and call them lots and lots of nasty names... when I think they've been bad.... or if I'm just in a "mood". It's not mean or abusive. It's just my parenting "style".

What a relief to know that I can do and say whatever I want, whenever I want, to whomever I want... all in the name of... "S-T-Y-L-E"!

Love it.[/color]

IMO it’s possible to have heated arguments/disagreements or to get through to a person who acts wayward AND tell them some hard truths (what they need to hear) without being abusive, attacking, insulting, inflammatory etc.

It's funny to watch a loser come here everyday and bemoan posting styles as if someone here has the power to do any harm(you know the kind of harm that results from a WS not informing a BS that she had an A with her H)....talking about being a Christian and then deciding to hurt someone every single day by your actions....or in some cases a FAILURE TO ACT is at the very least hypocritical. Actually, coming from some....it is pretty friggin hysterical...not that I am mentioning anyone in particular.

And the post from SB referenced here is ridiculous since it would impact everyone around the movie going farter....it isn't intended to reach a PERSON that is acting like a WS....or maybe it is no act.

He actually says anyone Suzet - certainly Heterosexuals are most at risk of opposite sex attraction but there are many here, not previously homosexual, who have affairs with members of the same sex.

Dr Harley does say you can be attracted to people of the same sex if their LB balance reaches the romantic love threshold. (as repulsive as I find that) I have read this in one of his books.

In any case, I'm pleased you are no longer distinguishing between different kinds of lovebanks.

Then such a person is neither homosexual or heterosexual IMO, but bisexual (even if they are not aware of their homosexual or bisexual tendencies at first).

Wow, as a heterosexual person I can’t imagine myself ever being romantically attracted to one of my same sex friends… Like you, I find the thought indeed repulsive. IMO a person must have tendencies towards homosexuality or bisexuality to become romantically attracted to someone of the same sex. I don’t think a person who is purely heterosexual is able to get romantically attracted to a person of the same sex. Romantic attraction first start in the thoughts before it follows through to actions and IMO a heterosexual person will not even have the thought process towards a same sex person to begin with.

Bigk, as far as I know, Dr Harley says our spouse should be the one who meets our intimate and most important EN’s the best and most often, not that we shouldn't allow ANY ONE else to fill any of those needs too (obviously he is referring here to needs that can be met appropriately by more people than just the spouse like conversation for example and of course SF and intimate affection is not part of it and should ONLY be met by the spouse). I remember on his video clip piece about infidelity Dr Harley did say that we should not allow a member of the opposite sex to meet any of our intimate EN’s e.g. recreational companionship, intimate conversation, affection and obviously SF.

It it’s true that Dr Harley says we must A proof our M by not allowing ANY person to meet any of our intimate or most important EN’s (and not only the opposite sex), then it means that we must live an isolated life where we can do absolutely nothing without our spouse... Then I will not be able to have any personal conversations with a same sex friend, no recreational companionship with a same sex friend like going for coffee, to the shops or whatever. That makes absolutely no sense and is ridiculous IMO.

Of course our spouse should be our BEST friend and (as Dr Harley says) the one who meets our most important EN’s the best and most often. Also, IMO, ALL friends (opposite and same sex friends) should be known to both spouses and be friends of the marriage as well...and of course nothing of ANY friendship (opposite or same sex) should be kept hidden from a spouse - there should be complete openness and honesty regarding ALL friendships, but in marriages with heterosexual spouses, the same rules for opposite sex friendships simply will not apply to same sex friendships IMO. For example, things that will be inappropriate with an opposite sex friend will not necessarily be inappropriate with a same sex friends like sharing time, e-mails or phone calls for conversation, doing some recreational companionship together like going to the movies, coffee or lunch etc.

I've asked S. Harley about this. As he put it, people have a "governor" that essentially regulates how much of a "deposit" goes in your love bank based on somebody's actions.

It makes sense to me, a birthday card from my W generates a different emotional response than one from my brother, or mother, or friend, or co-worker. i.e. the one from my WW may be worth 100 credits, while all the others may be worth 1. They can give me cards till they are blue in the face, I ain't falling in love with them.

IMHO, much of this has to do with one's perspective. Flowers for no particular reason seem to have a greater impact than flowers on a birthday or anniversary. The later can elicit feelings of this gift has no emotional meaning as they were done out of ritual or obligation. While the former can elicit much stronger feelings since the gift appears to be done solely for the purpose of caring for another.

I think you occassionally see this dynamic when people are trying to recover. The WS will view all of the attempts to meet EN's by the BS as obligatory, manipulative or with ulterior motives and this greatly reduces the magnitude of love bank deposits.

So in short, yes anytime anyone meets one of your EN's they make deposits to your love bank. But your perspective, determines the magnitude of those deposits, and thus regulates whether you fall in love.

Just my 2 cents.

I'd also like to point out the difference between "erotic love" and "in love".

I've seen cases where a spouse...especially women, for reasons I'll explain in a minute...is more "in love" with their best friends than they are "in love" with their spouse. That friends feelings mean more to them...their approval, their relationship, everything about them is more important to that person than even their own spouse.

There are no 'erotic feelings' attached to this...but its still a form of emotional affair. That friend is making more lovebank deposits than that person's spouse is...and it works in the same fashion as an affair does. Its EASIER for that person to make those deposits than it is for the BS to do so at that time too...just like it is when a spouse is engaged in a 'standard' EA or PA.

Again...there are no sexual overtones to this relationship. No erotic feelings, no thoughts of physical intimacy...but a deep emotional attachment, a feeling of "soulmates", and a higher value placed on that relationship than even the marital relationship.

Because women tend to need/want a deeper level of communication than men, especially with their friends...this kind of relationship tends to happen far more often with women than men. Not that it can't happen that way...but its more likely to happen between two women friends than between two men.

So that lovebank that SH talks about is NOT limited to between men and women, nor is it absolutely related to love between "lovers".

I get Suzet's point...that many of the BEHAVIORS that tend to generate lovebank deposits are ones that are not only benificial and desirable between marriage partners...that they also describe ways that we should behave with ALL of our relationships. Demonstrating respectful behavior, having a concern as to how what we say/do is taken...etc...is all part of 'civilized behavior'.

For what its worth, I agree with your thoughts, Suzet. However, you'll find that the vast majority of those that do not agree with what you're trying to say are those who don't place much value in the behaviors that you're advocating. They prefer not to use those behaviors, and will resist and resent any attempt at demonstrating the value of them.

Rprynne, this make a lot of sense and also explain to me why I (as a heterosexual person), will never feel romantically attracted to a same sex person or friend.

I remember when I received intense counseling and therapy from a same sex counselor a few years ago for serious childhood issues, I became emotionally very attached and attracted to her during the course of the counseling (also emotionally dependant for a while). I’ve completely opened up towards this woman and had the greatest admiration for her. She was so supporting, emphatic, helpful and genuinely caring. She was the first person (except for my H) I felt really showed true understanding and care for my issues and pain. For this reason I always felt very good when I have left a counseling session with her and in the process she filled some of my most important EN's. The emotional attachement and attraction I developed towards her was so intense that I know if it was an opposite sex counselor, I would have probably fell in love with that person (that’s also the reason why I will never make use of an opposite sex counselor). I felt emotionally attracted and attached to the counselor but never physically or romantically because of my sexual orientation.

Hi Owl, thanks for your post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand what you say about the difference between “in love” and “erotic love” and that even two women friends who are both heterosexually orientated can have and EA with each other if they put more emphasis on their friendship and each others feelings than those of their spouses... That's very true and NO friendship should ever be more important than the relationship with the spouse.

According to your definition of “in love” where there are no sexual overtones...that’s probably what I’ve experienced toward my counselor back then. If it was an opposite sex counselor, I would have probably started to experience “erotic love” feelings (romantic feelings and physical attraction) towards the person as well.

SP - Back to your question.

I'm a little confused. At first you seemed upset that people would say end a M if you don't have kids. Now it seems like your asking if you want to have kids is it ever safe to do that with FWS.

IMHO, is it safe to do that with a WS? No. Is it safe to do that with a FWS? Yes. I think it all depends on the state of your M when you decide to have children. The future success of your M has less to do with the fact that their was an A and more to do with what happens from now forward.

I've always liked to distinguish between reconciling and recovering. Any M impacted by infidelity is going to end either in divorce or somewhere on the spectrum between reconciled and recovered. To me reconciling is more about saying I'm sorry, promising not to do it again. Recovery is more about getting to and addressing the big issues. Addressing both the internal and external problems that led up to this.

Reconciling seldom results in a FWS. At best its a (F?)WS. They end their A, but they are still a WS. Just hibernating. Recovery results in a FWS. A changed person.

How do you tell the difference. I don't know, I'm hoping that I'd know it when I see it.

All that said, it seems that you don't have to make that decision right now. You're in plan B. You arelegaly constrained as to when you could finalize a D. Isn't your only choice to cross that bridge when you come to it. I mean if your WS doesn't budge over the next year, its irrelevant. If your WS does want to come back to the M, you can assess whether it is to recover or reconcile. After you determine that, then you can decide on the question of children.

Owl - Its a good point. I think what it illustrates is that a good relationship or love is as much about your investment, your expectations, and your receptiveness. Three things that you can change totally independent of the actions of the other person.

Suzet - I would also guess that your feelings for your therapist changed over time, while the therapist had not changed at all. Somewhat illustrating the point that you can make choices that affect your feelings for another. i.e. the more you invested, the more receptive you were, the stronger your feelings.

SP-

Another reason why I tend to suggest that a brand new marriage (less than a year old) that has suffered infidelity is often not recoverable...

If you go to plan B...now, after being married and together such a very short time...there's little basis to draw your H back to you with.

Plan B is normally not effective at causing a WS to miss the BS if it wasn't preceeded by a STELLAR plan A. Plan A causes huge deposits in the lovebank, even if they WS doesn't want to acknowledge them at the time. It causes the WS to MISS the BS when they go to plan B. They feel the gap where their BS was in their lives...and often the OP is not ready or able to actually fill that gap.

And this is generally based on couples that have a solid foundation of several years of happy marriage prior to the affair. That foundation is key...because if it was a good marriage for most of that time, there's a huge history of positive things that the WS can look back on in their fog free moments and start to miss.

Less than a year's worth of marriage generally won't have that solid foundation. There's no 'base to build from' for recovery. There's no "why can't we go BACK to how we were" feelings generated anywhere...because the "how we were" wasn't long enough to make a tremendous impact.

I personally feel that plan B may well be a good step for you...it will prepare you to let go of your WS and help you be ready to stand on your own without him. I disagree with Believer in this case, however. I don't believe that a short term marriage prior to the affair is going to be sufficient base and "plan A foundation" to woo your WS back with.

I don't mean to be harsh, and I certainly could be wrong. But I'm giving you the advice as I see it.

Good luck to you, regardless.

rprynne

I'm not sure how my question got confused, but I am not wondering at all about if I should have children with my WH. This is not an issue with me b/c I cannot have children of my own (I found this out over a year ago).

But I do agree with you about the difference b/t recovery and reconciliation, and I will accept no less than recovery if WH decides to return to the M. Right now, all I am focusing on is a good Plan B. If he does not return by next summer a changed man, then Plan D it is. I'll be fully preprared for that by then (or as prepared as anyone can be...)

Owl--

My WH and I have been married 8 years, and we have been a couple for over 20 years. That's why I am trying to follow MB principles to save our M--b/c we have so many years invested with each other.

If we had been married for a short period of time (let's say five or less years for the sake of argument), I'd have dropped him like a hot potato once I found out about the A. I did a good Plan A (for two months, only b/c he was truly awful and cake-eating to such an extreme that I was quickly getting to a point where I was beginning to HATE him.) All he really wanted to do was get to OW--according to him all my positive changes only made him feel more guilty b/c he was not trying to give to the M on his side. And even though I explained about withdrawal and that I would do the heavy lifting for the M and try to help him through this period, he wasn't having any of it. He wanted to have OW for SF, Affection and Admiration and keep me around to meet his ENs for FS and the family/ respectable husbannd image when it suited him since we had been together for so long. (Trust me, this last statement is not an LB--he told me as much before he moved out.)

I'll put my two cents in here, for what it's worth...

In my case, we had been married about 9 1/2 years on DDay. Though we had no kids, this was a long-term marriage. By the time the divorce was final, we had passed our 11th anniversary. I basically count 10 years of marriage for us, because we were completely separated and going through the divorce for well over a year at the end there.

I can tell you that at first, I did try for R, that's what I wanted. That feeling didn't last long, though. Once my emotions started settling down some, and I had a chance to think about a life without him, I was torn. I don't believe in divorce. The church I attend doesn't really believe in divorce except in specific circumstances. Adultery is one - but they also believe you should try to R if at all possible. So everything I believe was telling me that R should be the goal. And yet... once I started talking to some of the leaders in the church about what was going on, and we started going to counseling with one of the ministers at our church, they made sure I knew that it would NOT be a sin for me to divorce him. Told me that MANY times. This from a congregation that had recently been preaching about how too many of our members were getting divorced. Hmmmm......

And I thought about this. A lot. What it boiled down to was two things: 1. he had not been very nice to me for a very long time; frankly, there had been a whole lot of emotional abuse, and the A was just another form of that abuse. 2. although I had always said I didn't want kids, that had changed, and I really did. And he had made it clear that he did. So I had to decide if I would ever be comfortable with him being the father of my children. And the bottom line was.... I wouldn't. Between the emotional abuse over the years, combined with the fact that the A had made me lose trust in him, I didn't see ever seeing him as a good candidate for a father.

And really, the trust was the big thing. He had made me lose trust in our entire marriage. I was questioning everything.... I wondered how much else had gone on in the past that I didn't know about, how much else he had lied to me about. He had shown me that he could lie to me, not have remorse about it, get away with it, make me believe it, and hold up the fallacy for months, maybe years. Even if we did R to a certain extent, I would never be able to have the kind of trust I once had in him, and that's the kind of trust I wanted to have in someone I would choose to be a parent with.

If we were already parents together, then I couldn't do anything about that. But we weren't. And I could. So I did. To me, that just meant that staying together was no longer an option.

He wasn't someone I could trust to parent with. He wasn't someone I wanted to be a role model for my children. And I had no idea if he could ever become that sort of person. And plenty of evidence that he could be the kind of person I didn't want around any kids of mine. He had to go.

When kids are already in the mix, you can't just make that decision. He'll still be the father, no matter what (or mother, I know it goes both ways!) But when you're in the position of not having kids yet, well, why would I ever choose someone who could act like that to be a parent with?

osxgirl

yes, yes and amen! As I stated, I am still in the mode of wanting to save M if possible, but I can say that I can definitely see letting him go despite all pur years together because of the issue you raised: TRUST.

What devasted me most about the A was not the sex or even the emotional attachment he made with OW (now that understanding only happened after reading SAA, HNHN, Torn Asunder, After The Affair and this website), but that this person that I had spent half my life with, who was the person I trusted more than anyone else--I no longer recognized. He was this liar and user and manipulator and all he cared about was his happiness and desires--no one else. Trusting him again--in any sort of meaningful way--will be so hard. And like you, I want to trust the person I have as a life partner. I struggle with if I want to put the effort into trying to trust him again if he does leave his A and want to work on M, when I could try again with someone else with a "clean slate" so to speak.

SP - Ok, got it. I think if I were in your sitch, I would try to recover. Like I said, in my sitch, we have no kids, we've been married over 15 years and dated for 4 before that, and I tried the recovery route.

For me it had less to do with how long we'd been married or kids. It was simply that we could try recovery and if we failed we could get a divorce. I just didn't think it was feasible to try it the other way around. i.e. get divorced and then try to recover the M.

For me, trying and failing only costs us time. While I realize that time can be critical on occassion, in most cases it isn't. Most times you can afford to spend 6-12 months giving things a shot.

rprynne

Did your WH return to the M? Are you in recovery with him? Did he ever leave you to be with OW? How long did it take him to come back or try recovery with you?

Sorry for all the questions, but I try to get insight from people here who have similarities to my sitch in one way or another...

Hi bigk, this morning I’ve made some edits on this post to include more of my thoughts/opinions in my response to you. If you’re interested you can give me your thoughts again too. If you’re not interested, no prob!

NS: I know I can sometimes be a bit “long winded” in my posts but I haven’t yet master the technique to say the same things in less words! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Suzet - When I read some of the posts on this thread, people (including you) were essentially saying there are different kinds of Love Banks; romantic love banks etc. It was that incorrect assertion I was challenging.

Perhaps "Love Bank" is a bad name.

Our emotions keep track of how people treat us - LB deposits and withdrawals.

Now I think I agree with Rpryne who says there is a governor on LB deposits/withdrawals. Deposits/Withdrawals from certain people have a higher value.

But we all have ONE LB with accounts for everyone we know. If sufficient deposits are made, the threshold for romantic love is reached and we are "in love"

This is straight out of Dr Harley's books. But everyone seems to be trying to make it say what they want it to say.

Now neither you, nor I, would allow someone of the same sex to meet the needs of SF, Intimate Conversation etc - this is affair proofing our marriages.

I do not believe that people who "discover" same sex attraction are bi-sexual or even homosexual or that they have a "bent in that direction. The meeting of EN's is just that powerful for SOME people as repugnant as we find that concept.

I'll go further Suzet. As a Christian, I assume you hold to the view that homosexuality is a sin - how can that be if they just "ARE" homosexual? How could God say it is sin? That would not be just to hold someone accountable for something they have no control over. No. It is sin. They "discovered" ther were homosexual or bisexual when they allowed someone of the same sex to meet their needs.

Clearly some people other than our spouses can meet some of our EN's - just not the intimate ones - so conversation etc is OK. Even Recreational Companionship - remembering that one of Dr Harleys concepts is that we should have the BEST TIMES when we are with our spouse so that the most love units are deposited and we are in love.

Can we agree with all that so far?

Now - onto our other relationships, I have never said that what you have said about them is wrong despite yours and Owl's best efforts to portray my words as such.

In that context, if you want to tell me that I have made a DJ on you, I would probably tell you that I'm not too worried about making withdrawals from your love bank. If you were to tell me I was rude to you, I would probably think about what I had written and apologise if I thought I was out of line or wrong. A subtle but to me at least important difference.

I wasn't going to bother responding to this drivel but what the heck.

I don't see anyone here saying that Suzet's comments here are wrong Owl.

I do see you in condescending mode however and trying to educate me/others. OMIGOSH that's a disrespectful judgement - or at least it WOULD BE IF WE WERE MARRIED.

Hi bigk,

I don’t have must time to respond (must go to a meeting), but for now I just want to respond on the following:

In my view as a Christian, it’s not homosexual or bisexual orientation that’s a sin, but the acting on it. In my view a person don’t have control over sexual orientation, but only the acting on it e.g. practising homosexual activities.

I see.

I don't believe there is any orientation. That would be very unjust of God to condemn people to a lifetime of no ethical way of obtaining SF if it is an orientation don't you think?

IE Homosexuals are not born, they are made.

OK. There's been a whole lot of back & forth on this subject. I'll have to make this really short cuz gotta be somewhere.

Smartie, everyone's sitch is different. You have a whole lot of time invested in this R. I can understand. But, I have to say, having been through this, even after 25 years, kids, high school sweethearts the whole deal,I personally, don't think I could do what you are doing.

Holding on, while he has moved out & is carrying on w/his A, would just be to difficult for me.

I think, for me, it would take to much toll on me mentally, emotionally & physically. I think I would have to move on, & whatever happens will happen. I would concentrate on getting over him.

I say this not as a judgement, but it's what I think, for me, would be what I'd have to do.

If I had had a crystal ball after dday 1 to foresee that there would have been a dday 2, I would have gone dark and concentrated on letting go instead.

I say this because although we are in recovery now and things are great, this has changed me & are R forever. Some for the good & some for the bad.

There will always be only a certain amount of trust left in our R now. There will always be a feeling of a loss of innocense in our R now. There is always a small question in the back my head "is he being honest"? It's like a piece of metal that gets permanetly tarnished. You can shine it up or paint it, it's still strong, but underneath it's still tarnished.

I'm still early in recovery 1+ year since dday2, so maybe it completely goes away after a long period of time, but from many I have spoken to, I don't think it ever completely goes away.

What I'm saying is that keep in mind that if he does come back, recovery is pure he77. Sometimes I feel I would rather just start w/a clean slate. This experience has taken away a sense of innocense & trust,changed my view of R, my view of M, my veiw of human beings in general. I don't know how to explain it. It's just different. I feel that I am forever different.

Bigk, some homosexually orientated people are indeed born that way. In such cases the orientation is genetic. It’s reality although I know there are still people who don’t believe it.

BigK, I once had an in depth discussion with ForeverHers on this topic (and similar questions like the one you have raised above). I don’t want to go in depth about it here so if you’re interested, HERE is a link to that thread.

First, just to clarify, I'm a BH with a WW.

My WW left and moved in with the OM before I even knew there was A. Long story how that happened. Its posted somewhere here.

Its hard to answer the question of returning to the M. After D-Day, my WW did move out of the OM's house. But she never moved home. I did a pretty good plan A, but similar to what I posted above, my wife never attempted recovery. She did claim to try and reconcile, yet she never ended contact with OM. After she broke her committment to end contact for the fourth time, I threw in the towel.

I never did a plan B. In fact my WW and I still talk frequently. She claims to have ended contact after I caught her the last time, started IC, and is currently taking some time to decide what she wants to do.

Not to promising, huh?

Here's the big difference between my sitch and yours. You are doing a plan B. In retrospect, it was probably a mistake that I never did it.

I hope you are going very dark with your plan B.

BK, I am assuming that well thought reasoned "argument" from Suzet will certainly change your thinking. Her using an italic font for "born" and "genetic" are what convinced me...how about you? SOME people may not believe it BK...but it must be true...well, just because. And bi-sexuals...well, they are just born that way too. Heck...for all those people that have just experimented with a same sex relationship and never returned to one... well, they were born just flat out confused.

Hey, are some men born with the "walk" of do they develop that??? How about their fashion sense....or does that come from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy???


Next thing you know, it will be argued that a WS that willingly decides to commit a daily sin against their victims(supposedly at the request of a BH) are in fact born with the "no morality" gene.

I think you are a making a huge mistake by continuing to speak to your WW...she is getting the option of considering your M. Take away that option for her with a very dark plan B...very dark. She needs a wake up call and Plan B is the answer.

Hi Bigk, sorry, I forgot to reply to the rest of your post (today was a hectic day at work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />).

Anyway, with regards to the rest of your post - I agree with all of it except that I don’t believe it’s possible for a purely heterosexually orientated person to develop a romantic attraction (“erotic” love) towards a same sex person. I also don’t agree with your opinion that there don’t exist such thing as homosexual and bisexual orientation.

Of course not ALL people who are homosexual are born with that orientation, but that’s a totally different subject.

I guess that's what make people and the world so interesting and diverse - everyone have different opinions and views on many things!

rprynne

sorry for the gender mix up--I should have read the bio lines more carefully!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

jaded41

It's funny you should say what you did in your post. As I was walking my dogs this morning, I really began to question what I was fighting for in this M. Of course him living with OW is one thing, but I know my WH--and if he does come home recovery will be MISERABLE. But here's where the turning point came for me. I could work through the misery and H--l of recovery, if I knew he had that core in him that if he made the decision to come back he would give it his all. But if I assess my WH honestly (not through the filter of love and a long-term R), that is not his nature. It is his nature to avoid, to run, to give up when things get difficult--he engaged in this behavior before the A began in many areas of his life. One of his major weaknesses is to take a passive approach, not to deal with painful or difficult issues. I know enough from reading and working with my IC to know this tendency on his part will not get us through a successful recovery.

Two other things have me leaning toward using Plan B simply to let go and get better for me: one, I think he will always have deep feelings for OW, even after the A is over. And don't I want to compete with the ghost of OW for the rest of my life (I read flameout's thread about his continued thoughts and anxiety over his OW even after returing to his marriage and working hard at recovery. It sent fear through my soul and brought me to tears--and he did not even live with his OW). Two, I don't think I could ever gain a level of trust with WH again that I want to have with a husband. He revealed a side of himself that was frightening: deep deceit and manipulation and extreme selfishness. I don't want to wonder and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life asking "when is that other side of him going to come out again?". To me (and I am not judging anyone who has gone through the hard work of recovery--in fact, I am in awe!), it is too much... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So for today (and I think going foward), my Plan B is for me to heal and move on...

Smartiepants

You're probably right.


Yes, but I have the same option.


You're probably right. But I no longer have the energy to modify my behavior solely for the purpose of influencing my WW.

SP,

Here is the thing. Here people quote two years to start feeling "recovered". After the A and NC two years.

One of the MC's we went to had a differing opinion of that.

My FWW asked him point blank well how long will it take.

He said it used to be widely accepted a year and a half to two and a half years. Depending on differing factors.

He said now it is being thought that it is 5 years for the BS to "recover" I guess.

So there is five years.

There were times I wanted to call it quits. I was on the phone with the lawyer. I was making plans to leave. Getting my ducks in a row.

Then I went home and my boys jumped on me and said Daddy is home. Then I realized I never wanted to miss one day of that. If I got divorced I would.

So to me the only reason the pain was worth it is because of them.

It was funny I couldn't put my finger on it until I read this thead.

I am reconciled but not recovered.

So that is always a possibility.

Now on the flip side of this as well. I don't think my wife would have statyed either.

She wouldn't have left me for OM, that was a fling, but she wouldn't have wanted to endure the recovery either.

So that is probably why.

It isn't just the BS that hurts it is the WS and it is possible they know the damage and won't comitt to the heavy lifting because it affects the BS more then the WS anyway.

Oh Smartie,

I am soooo sorry that you find yourself in this predicament. Your WH sounds a lot like my H. My H is very passive/agressive and a complete conflict avoider. I'm afraid that that is a product of his up bringing. He would rather avoid, run, lie than to deal with anything that could possibly bring up emotions such as anger, shame, guilt, embarrasement. Because of this it makes recovery soooo much more difficult.

Luckily, and I use that term loosely, my H never moved out, never expresses deep love etc.... for OW. He had a relapse because of contact(job related), after 3 months into recovery, which of course lead to dday 2, 3 mos. after that.

I was so torn up that I literally feel that it has affected my mental, emotional, and physical health. I'm being tested for some physical stuff that I honestly feel the A contributed to. I lost 20 pounds and I was already thin.

We were seperated for almost 5 mos., but I never went into Plan B(I didn't know about MB). This is something that I to this day regret, because I always wonder what would have happened if I had. What I mean is I wish my H knew what it would be like not to have me. Maybe then he would appreciate me even more, maybe then he'd have a better understanding of how much pain he's put me through, maybe then he'd think twice before he'd do anything of this sort again. These are things that I think about.

Not only that, I always wonder how much of trying to save my M is about me being afraid, me being rejected. I had so much fear...financial fear, fear for my children, mostly fear of being alone. If I had went dark for those 5 months, concentrated soley on me and my children, I could decide to work out my M knowing I could do it on my own if needed. I would know that my H would have to fight to win back my heart, know that he felt some of the pain, some of the rejection. Instead of him feeling like he could come back at any time. This is just food for thought.

I have seen the question asked "knowing what you now know, if you just meet your WH today, would you still marry him?"

P.S.: To be honest, my H is doing & saying everything he possibly can (with his personal limitations) to try & recover our M, but truthfully,I am still looking of my shoulder, (and checking cell phone bills, and checking e-amil and anything else). Because I know that in the past he has said similar thing, looked me straight in the eye and lied through his teeth.

He/we is/are different know, out of the fog, most likely truely committed, by the doubt is still there. At this point, I still don't even trust my own instincts yet. Yes, I still always feel I am still in some sort of competition with the OW even if it is only memories or fantasy. It sucks!!!! Only time will tell. This is why I'm trying to be bluntly honest.

jaded41

The truthful answer to your question(and I have asked myself this question pre- and post-A) is definitely not. As I said earlier, my WH exhibited certain traits (conflict avoidance, escapism, lack of willingness to work through hard situations) even before we were married--as early as us dating in college.

Back then, even though I saw those traits, I blew them off because I was younger and in love. But as the years passed, those traits became more pronounced and had more of an impact on our lives. For example, he went to graduate school for 8 years in a PhD program and then just dropped out without finishing because it was "too difficult to write his dissertation". WTF--8 years and you just drop out?!? Meanwhile, he's gotten himself in a MOUNTAIN of student loan debt while in graduate school. And when he leaves the program he takes a low paying job in retail. Now working in retail is fine, but HE HATED IT. Every day he'd complain--this sucks, I wish I made more money, I hate having this student loan debt, blah, blah, blah. When I'd suggest things like finding another job he really liked or getting a second part-time job to get extra $ to pay down his loans, he igonored me and continued to complain about his rotten lot in life. When they offered him promotionsa at work, he would turn them down saying "I don't need the aggravation".Everything was everyone else's fault (his professors, his boss, the world in general) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> He was also extremely jealous and resentful of people who made more money and were more successful in their careers than him--including me! (It's funny, OW is less educated and makes even less $ than he does--think that was part of her appeal?)

Also, he would never want to discuss serious problems with me. If I tried, he would shut down or say I don't want to keep talking about this. Things got got ignored or pushed aside...

Finally, his self esteem was low and his general outlook on life was so negative (he called it "realistic"). I am the type to look on the bright side, find the good in things in any sitch and keep rolling even when things get tough. He was the perpetual downer--no matter what he had or did, life was never good enough. In one of our converations before he left, he asked me what I wanted from a partner-- and one of things I said is "I want someone who loves life and wants to enjoy all the good things it has to offer with me." I was tired of always having to be the strong one, the cheerleader. IMO, life was good, and I was happy. More than anything, I wanted him to be happy too. But he never was. Was it depression? Who knows, since he's stopped IC he may never know and work through his issues.

My response to the question says a lot, huh?

SP,

Knowing what you now know and the conclusion you came to, Do you think your WH is capable of doing the work necessary over the next 2 to 5 years so your M recovers?

We can use past behaviour to predict the future. What would your prediction be?

frognomore

My honest prediction is this: when his A with OW is done, he will try to "feel me out" to determine if I am still willing to work on the M. If the answer was yes, he would come back and do whatever I asked him, but play the victim/marytr (see nothing ever works out for me--I guess I'm resigned to spend my life with a woman who will never understand or forgive me, and who will never trust me and give me the uncondtional love and respect [admiration] I deserve again).

He'll go through the motions for awhile, but he will not do the things needed to get the love that he used to have for me back. Nor will he do the hard introspection and make the changes he needs to make in himself not to repeat this (or some other destructive behavior). And finally, he won't put up with the rollercoaster of emotions that come with recovery for very long. So my prediction is that he will wait it out until he thinks I'm comfortable again and at some point have another affair (only next time he'll be smarter about it--or so he thinks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />).

That's my opinion, anyway...

SP,

So is that ok to you?

SP -

Your answers sound very much like my train of thought when I was figuring out what to do. I knew that with EX and OW, one of two things would happen - either they would actually struggle and finally get married, once EX and I got divorced (and if OW ever got off her butt and actually got a divorce too!), or they wouldn't...well, obviously! Ha! But what I mean is that though I didn't really think they would actually make it, I figured there was an outside chance they would last long enough to get married... and if they did that, my EX would stay there because he wouldn't divorce her since that would be admitting that he had been wrong, and I had been right. (Of course, that wouldn't stop her from divorcing him, and I really didn't figure the two would last too long if they did get married.)

But really, I didn't figure they'd actually get married. And I was right. But I knew my EX well enough to know that he didn't want to be alone. He wanted someone to fall back on. He was having fun, playing knight-in-shining armor for her, but when things fell apart, he wanted to have me waiting in the background to take care of him... a safe harbor to come home to.

And when I sat back and thought about it, and about his personality and what I'd really learned about him over the years, if I let myself be honest about what he was really like, I realized that once I let him get away with it, once I let him run off, do whatever he wanted, and then come running home to the wife waiting at home, I would have just established the pattern he would expect for the rest of our lives. It wouldn't have ended with her. That OW would have just been the beginning. He would have just gotten sneakier and less forthcoming about what he was doing. This time, he felt guilty enough about it that he confessed, and then I was able to dig up all the information I needed, because he hadn't been really trying to hide it. After this, though, he'd do it again, only he'd start trying to hide it, and would feel less and less guilt each time....

The first time was a living he!!. I couldn't imagine living the rest of my life that way. And, as I said before, I wanted kids. But to me, it would have been tantamount to child abuse to knowingly bring children into that kind of a home.

So, for me, the question wasn't if we could R or not. I knew that once she dumped him, it probably wouldn't take him long to come back to me, and if I wanted him, I could have him back. If I wanted to R the marriage at that point, we could have. But at what price?

Again, it's a choice only you can make though. For me, the choice ended up being easy. I realized quickly that the man I loved had never really existed anyway. The only thing that was keeping me in the marriage at that point was the promise I had made to God. So, I gave R my best effort, my EX continued to cheat with OW, and I felt completely justified in choosing divorce then. I still hate that I'm divorced because of it being a broken vow to God, but I realize that it wasn't my fault the vow was broken, and I'm ok with it, it just hurts sometimes. Not what I wanted, but necessary... a necessary amputation - you'd never willingly choose to do it, but if it has to be done, you do it and move on.

frognomore

No, what I described above is absolutely not ok! As much as I hate the thought of divorcing, I hate more the thought of wasting years with a man who will never be the life partner I want or need. I cannot go through another betratyal with him whether is it is an affair or some other broken commitment.

That's why I am beginning to turn a corner here -- to see that it is best for me to let him go and move on to a better place. It is sad for me for sure, but I also feel a sense of peace and clarity, and less anger if that makes any sense...

oxsgirl

You hit the nail right on the head--at what price. If I REALLY thought my WH could be the man I thought he was - or was - (I don't know-not even sure it matters)I'd go through the he!! of recovery--no hesitation. But when my head and my heart tell me this M will really never be saved, I think it's time to stop fighting.

osxgirl

Just a curiosity--did you do Plan B? Did your Ex ever make an attempt to reconcile? If yes, how did you handle it?

Right now, I'm happy to stay in dark Plan B with no contact and the next time he sees me is at the D hearing (the earliest that can happen is 8/08 in my state). But I know (think?) that is not realistic. What was the process of separation and divorce for you--not legal issues but the process b/t you and your ExH?

Did your ex give you any difficulty? I don't think mine will give me a problem (that goes against his conflict avoidance MO- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!)

SP,

One of the things I used to think to myself is "would I be better off alone or with my spouse"

Not with someone else but alone.

Recovery is a lot of work, hard work.

It is hard to be a BS but the FWS has to at some point make you feel as though you have value.

If that probably won't happen then going your separte ways is not such a bad deal.

Count your blessings you don't have kids that make it even harder.

I was already in the process of divorce before I ever found these boards. Despite that, I think I probably did do, on my own, as close to a plan A/plan B as the circumstances would have allowed.

The first dday was 3 days before Thanksgiving. He said he wanted to R, and claimed to go NC. After I found out about this place and read up on things, I could see I did do a reasonably good plan A at that time. We ended up with essentially about 2 more ddays after that though, because he never REALLY went NC. Finally, towards the end of January, he walked out one night to go live with OW, just leaving a note.

My plan B was VERY abbreviated. He walked out on Wednesday night. He went completely NC on me - I couldn't get ahold of him. I tried. By Thursday at lunch, I had a plan in place for when he did call - I decided that I was going to tell him that when (not if, but when) he decided he wanted to come home, my answer was going to be that I was willing to try and R, but that he was not going to be allowed to move back home for at least a year. I would make sure he had somewhere else to live (and I did!), but he couldn't move home and he obviously couldn't continue to live with (or see!) OW if he wanted to R. And we would have to go to MC. And that there were no guarantees, all I could promise is that we could try.

Remember I said he left on Wednesday? He called on Friday, begging to come home. I gave him the plan. He begged, cried, threatened suicide... you name it. I didn't budge. He eventually agreed, and stayed with the friend (male) from church where I had arranged for him to go for the weekend. After that, he claimed he was living with his buddy from high school while we were going to counseling. In truth, he had gone right back to the OW, which told me everything I needed to know. So, yes, a plan B, but possibly the shortest plan B on record! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as the process beyond that... well, he was already out the door, I had already changed the locks.... when I confronted him about him having been still with her the whole time, he knew that was it. I had warned him that this was his last chance, that I couldn't take anymore lying. He basically just gave up, he didn't even try to defend himself then.

After that, we didn't even talk for a while... I went to a lawyer and did what I needed to protect myself financially, and I ended up being the one to push things forward, mainly because he was digging himself in a hole with debt and fines and was doing stuff that I just didn't want to take a chance of being associated with. So, I pushed getting a settlement agreement signed between us. Once that was signed... I let him handle getting the divorce done. In Maryland, the settlement agreement takes care of everything that is important. The actual divorce is basically just a formality.

As far as him giving me a difficulty.. no... and yes... he actually claimed to want the divorce immediately, so he could go marry the OW, despite the fact that SHE wasn't divorced, and didn't get divorced until long after he and I did! But he wanted ME to do it, me to do all the work. I told him that I could care less what he wanted. And so things just sat for a while, until I decided I needed the settlement agreement done and all our finances and legal stuff completely separated. Once we started doing that, he gave me problems... but only when I didn't do exactly what he wanted. But like yours, he's a conflict avoider, so he would complain a little on the phone, a LOT in e-mail, and mostly just refuse to pay what he owed, and refuse to get done what needed done.

In the end, I had to keep some of his belongings that were very important to him, and threaten to sell them, in order to get him to take care of things that he was legally obligated to do anyway. The way I got him to sign off on the settlement agreement was that he had done something stupid, needed to take out a loan against his government retirment savings plan to fix it so he didn't lose his job, and needed me to sign the loan paperwork before he could do that since we were still married. I refused to do it until he signed the settlement agreement, because otherwise, he could have just defaulted on the loan, had no retirement savings, and then come after my retirement savings instead. He got really ticked at me for a lot of this...I think mainly because the OW got ticked. She expected him to get a lot out of the divorce, and he didn't - I kept pretty much everything.

Even now, several years later, whenever he gets bored or lonely, he tries to contact me, and I finally had to just completely block his mail, because I couldn't handle continuing to hear from him. The lies from him still continued.. I don't think he even knows the difference between the truth and lies anymore.

Don't know if all that helps. Really, everyone around me said mine was kind of an extreme case... they'd seen plenty of other divorces, cases of infidelity before, but my EX was WAY out there. So I don't know that you can judge your situation by mine. But I do know that once they've shattered that level of trust, especially if they've done it repeatedly like my EX did, it's almost impossible to get that back.

When you add to it that we didn't have kids to bond over, and I look at the way he treated me, and kept saying that I wouldn't HAVE a friend who treated me that way....

To be honest, even though I told him I would try and R, and I did make an honest effort at it during the 2 1/2 months until I found out he was still living with OW, finding out he WAS still living to her actually ended up coming as a relief to me. I had said I would try to R, and I live up to my word, so I felt obligated to try as long as he was "trying" (though I really wasn't seeing much trying from him), but when I found out he had been lying about living with her, I was free.

oxsgirl

Your story is probably the most like mine of any I have read on this board so far. From Dday (only 1) until WH moving out was 2 months total. He never could maintain NC for more than a week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

He no longer has access to the house. I have seen a lawyer about getting a separation agreement done, but he is stalling on signing so I may have to use some leverage with him down the line. (Again like your ex, he is only interested in doing what he wants to do. Otherwise, I have to take care of it.) Right now getting the SA signed is not urgent, as I closed our joint savings account the day after he told me about the A and secured all my personal information, and we never had any joint credit cards or other accounts. The house is jointly owned by us, but since he abandoned the home and cannot afford it anyway, I doubt he will give me a problem about it in the end.

It's funny, people say the same thing to me that they said to you (even his own family)-- that he is WAY gone. And it is true--it is like an evil twin of WH's appreared one day and my H went missing. And OMG, he kept saying to me "I want us to be friends, we've been in each other's lives for so long." My reply: "I'd never want you as a friend now. I don't want friends who deliberately lie and cheat and hurt other people just to get what they want." I also learned from MB that the "let's be friends" line is just a way for WSs to keep their options open while they continue their As, so I knew not to fall for that bull.

Did your ex eventually file for D? At first I told my WH that I would never file for divorce, he would have to do it. But I know he won't because that would involve making an active choice that goes against his wishes (ie keeping me around while he plays house with OW), so I'll have to do it. And I'm fine with that now because it is important for me to be free of him.

What caused the breakup between he and OW?

Thank you for sharing. It helps to know I am not the only one who has gone through a situation as crazy as this.

Thanks for the link Suzet but I'll pass thanks.

As a professing Christian I'm amazed you would take that view for which there is no biblical support.

MEDC - LOL. You are evil and hilarious.

That is a view Dr Harley would not agree with.


I understand that is your OPINION. Do you understand, there is not a shred of scripture to support such an erroneous view?

Bigk, the Bible makes no reference to homosexual orientation, just as it doesn’t make any reference to people born with both female and male genitals or other physical male/female attributes simultaneously. No, the Bible only make reference to homosexual behavior e.g. practicing homosexual acts or a homosexual lifestyle.

See my previous post.

Suzet - that is a ridiculous comparison. How can you refer to a genetic deformity/mutation/mistake and compare it to homosexuality.

I certainly agree that it is the practicing of homosexuality that is the sin.

Again there is no evidence of such an orientation in the Bible. You are in serious scriptural error over this.

As if God would create someone who has a perversion he condemns.

I don't know bigk… If this is true, then I should have became romantically attracted to any one of my female friends years ago. One of my top EN's is conversation and other than my H, I have many female friends who fill this EN of mine effectively too. FOM also filled this need effectively, that's one of the reasons I became romantically attracted to him… But I have never become romantically attracted to any one of my close female friends. Why do you think is that? To ME the answer is obvious e.g. because I don't have any homosexual or bisexual orientation or tendencies. That’s also the reason IMO why I’ve never became romantically attracted to the therapist (the one I posted about in a previous post) in spite of a very strong emotional attraction and attachment I developed towards her during the course of the counselling.

Suzet - you just didn't breach the threshold. You readily admit there was a strong emotional attraction.

Why are you arguing so strongly for "orientation"??? Do you have someone close to you who is bisexual/homosexual?

You do remember Sodom and Gomorah presumably. God toasted them. Do you think they all had a homosexual orientation or was it a choice? Do you think God would create people that way?

No, I don’t think it’s a ridiculous comparison bigk… In my knowledge (according to some medical research done) some homosexual orientation does have a genetic origin e.g. a genetic deformity/mutation/mistake (to use your words). This is not always the case though…not all orientation is genetic…sexual orientation can also be the end product of a complex interaction between biological, psychological and/or social factors in the first (early) years of a person's life.

Anyway, just as the Bible doesn’t make any reference to genetic deformity/mutation/mistake regarding people who are born with both female and male genitals or other physical male/female attributes simultaneously, it doesn’t make reference to genetic deformity/mutation/mistake regarding homosexual orientation either. The fact that the Bible doesn’t make any reference to this phenomenon, doesn’t mean that it don’t exist.

I certainly don’t think God condemn a homosexual or bisexual orientated person whether a person was born that way or became that way through biological, psychological and/or social factors in the early years of life. He only condemns following a homosexual lifestyle and performing homosexual acts. Although a person might not have control over their sexual orientation, they do have control on their behavior and actions.

Do I think it’s unfair for a homosexual orientated person whose orientation can’t be changed to have no ethical way of obtaining SF? Yes, I do and I think it’s must be extremely difficult…and I have much empathy and compassion for such people. To live as a homosexual orientated believer in an ethic and responsible way within the broader society where promiscuousness also flourish, can’t be easy. I have heard and read of many good, Christian people who have severe internal suffering and feelings of guilt & shame because of their homosexual orientation.

Obviously many homosexual orientated people can’t and don’t live out their orientation because of their religion, beliefs, guilt, shame and fear to be rejected by God, church and society. As a result, many of them want to appear ‘normal’ and enter marriages in spite of their sexual orientation. Many also do this because they think marriage will ‘cure’ their homosexual orientation and will 'hide' their orientation from the world.

It’s not that simple bigk. Emotional attraction is not the same as having a romantic attraction towards someone e.g which will include “erotic” feelings and physical attraction as well… Again, that can only happen with a person of the same sex if there is a homosexual/bisexual orientation or tendencies IMO.

You say it didn’t happen simply because I didn’t breach the threshold. If that is true, then why did I became romantically attracted to FOM and not any of my female friends (or therapist) who is/was even better than FOM in filling my need for conversation? The answer is obvious bigk, and the "didn't breach the threshold" is clearly not the answer here.

I do know some people who are homosexual…not people close to me, but I still know them…good, decent, Christian people who live single and celibate life’s because of their faith but who are still condemned and judged by others on the grounds of their sexual orientation. The people that condemn them believes (like you and MEDC) that orientation don’t exist and that those homosexual feelings and tendencies are a choice. But the only “choice” here is to not act on that orientation.

Also, as I’ve said in my previous post - I’ve also heard and read of other cases where people are struggling with their homosexual orientation and don’t want to be that way because of their religion etc.… I do have much empathy and compassion for such people, but many churches and some other people in society still condemn/judge them because of a lack of knowledge and understanding about homosexual orientation and the fact that such orientation can’t always be changed (depending on reasons for the orientation e.g. whether it has a genetic origin or other factors in early years).

The moment a person choose to perform homosexual acts it’s indeed a choice because everyone have control over their behavior whether they are homosexually orientated or not. As I’ve said yesterday, it’s not the homosexual orientation that’s a sin, but the acting on it e.g. practicing homosexual acts and a homosexual lifestyle. THAT’s why God was so furious with Sodom and Gomorah. It’s not their orientation that was the issue here, it was their actions.

Unfortunately many people are born with genetic deformity/mutation/mistakes…sometimes it’s biological and sometimes psychological/mental…sometimes both… If I question God about the phenomenon of people who are born with a homosexual orientation, I must also question Him about a lot of under conditions that is “abnormal”.

For example, I’m born with a genetic tendency towards depression (OCD with associated depression and anxiety to be specific). The cause for the disorder is not only genetic, but I know it’s a big factor, because there is a history of these disorders in my family (also a few cases of suicide – 7 cases to be exactly). I don’t question God on why He has created me with this "abnormality". I just accept it, take all the help/resources available to help “control” this disorder (to make it easier for me to live with it) and go on with my live.

That's quite a stretch Suzet - let's see what we have learned here shall we?

1. You see medical science as written in stone and superior to the inerrant word of God. The fact that medical science changes it's opinion every week and the Bible has remained unchanged for thousands of years is not important to you.

2. The genetic mistakes/mutations to which I referred to are RARE. What you see as a homosexual/bisexual orientation is very common apparently, whereas I just see that people have erred from the word of God.

3. Homosexuals CAN become straight again. In fact there are many evangelists with ministries based on the way God changed their lives and are happily married in hetrosexual relationships.

4. There is NO support for your views in the Word of God.

5. Somehow you have decided that I am judging people for a homosexual orientation. I am not. I agree that it is practicing homosexuality that is the sin here. MEDC can speak for himself. There is help available for those people who have become gender confused by environment, choice or whatever.

5. Clearly, we have come full circle yet again regarding the LoveBank. Just when I thought we were at a point of agreement as well. Your extentions and inventions of new love bank theory are not supported by Dr Harley.

I don't see any point continuing this discussion with you Suzet as we clearly don't have a common frame of reference ie Love Bank theory or most importantly, the plain and clear teaching of the word of God.

Actually Suzet - here's a fun 2 minute pop quiz. It will illustrate how far your thinking differs from the Bible ok? (Or how much your thinking has been influenced by the secular world)

1. Adam and Eve - literal, real people? Yes/No
2. Creation - literal historical truth - 6x24hr days? Yes/No
3. Flood - literal, worldwide? Yes/No
4. Virgin Birth? Yes/No

**edit**

Suzet is seriously misguided from both a Biblical and practical standpoint. The gay agenda...yes, an admitted to agenda.... was always to convince people that a gay lifestyle was more normal than believed. There was actually a movement to get people to believe that 10% of the population is gay. It actually is closer to 3-4% for men and even less for women. The same holds true for the gay gene....if it were to be proven, which it never has been, that being gay is predetermined...gay people would be able to seek out and win equal rights based upon their medical condition. That is all that this has ever been about. There are countless numbers of scientists that have tried to find the genetic slant towards being a sausage stuffer...nothing has been proven. Now, they are able to find genetic markers for the most obscure diseases at times...so I imagine, it wouldn't be tough to come up with one for something that impacts so many people.
This is nothing more than people looking for excuses for their bad behavior. Amazingly, it is Suzet that is their champion...someone that has spent several years coming up with excuses for bad behavior.
I think what we will find is that children are slanted towards homsexual when they are conceived with a Liza Minelli record playing in the background.

LOL MEDC. I am surprised Suzet claims to be a born again believer and holds these views. I would not have even commented after my first post on the matter if she was not a Christian.

smartiepants2 - I'm sorry for threadjacking your thread here. I'm done with this. I broke one of my own rules about not getting into religious arguments on MB.

apologies to all.

well, she claims to be a born again believed and yet comes up with the most ridiculous rationalizations for hurting other people. her pronouncements about her faith seem pretty funny to me given her willingness to emotionally rape the woman she betrayed on a daily basis.

each and every BS on this site should think for a moment about what their lives would be like if it was Suzet driving the disclosure bus. They would be kept in the dak and not know about the cancer that was IMPLANTED into their marriage. The BW in her case does not have the ability to protect her marriage from the clutches of a woman (Suzet) that not only had an A with her H...but that still has occasional "accidental" contact with her H. Suzet is showing herself to be evil beyond measure in that regard. She victimizes that woman every single day so that she can have her play thing close by should her desires be rekindled.

okay, SP.... I am done too...sorry for the TJ.

But nothing of those medical research or my opinions is in contrast with the Bible bigk… The Bible and God clearly teaches that practicing homosexual acts or lifestyle is a sin… there is no reference to homosexual orientation (just as their isn’t about other “abnormalities) because God is only concerned with the sin of homosexual acts and not practising that behavior.

The only time a homosexual/bisexual orientated person erred from the word of God is when they practicing homosexual behavior.

Yes I agree here. Homosexuals can indeed become straight again. Whether sexual orientation can be changed or not depends on WHY the orientation exists in the first place e.g. whether it’s genetic or factors from early years (environmental etc).

But there is nothing that speaks against it either. Again, the Bible only make reference to people who perform homosexual acts.

Sorry If I made the wrong assumption.

I thought you said in your opinion something such as orientation doesn’t exist. You sentence above doesn’t’ reflect that view.

Glad we can agree on this one thing.

Yes, some become “gender confused” by environment or choice and there is indeed help available for such people. As I’ve said previously, there are cases where sexual orientation can be changed, but homosexual orientation because of genetic origin is simply not one of them…unless a miracle is performed by God.

IMO I’ve made not “extension” and “inventions” on the LB theory bigk…neither have I deviate from it IMO. I simply don’t belief your theory that a heterosexual person can get romantically attracted to a same sex person. That’s all. Probably if you ask Dr Harley personally he will agree that this can only happen if a person has homosexual or bisexual orientation or tendencies…I don’t know. Neither you or me can speak for him.

Again, the Bible don’t say anything on sexual orientation, only speaks about homosexual behavior.

I agree there is probably no purpose in continuing with this discussion bigk since we clearly have very different views and opinions on this subject.

SP -

Yes, your story is sounding a lot like mine. Not too long after the final break, when it was clear we were going to get divorced, my EX told me, "I see us more as best friends rather than as husband and wife. I still see us going to the movies, and talking every day, and all that kind of stuff like we always do, but just not you as my wife." And I told him that I would NEVER be friends with someone who could do the things that he had done to me. Like you said, he just wanted to keep his options open, I'm sure.

Yes, my EX did finally file for the divorce, but I think it was only because he felt like he had to. After we had the settlement agreement in place, I didn't do anything. As I said, I knew that everything was taken care of, we had gotten the condo switched over to my name only, I knew all my retirement stuff was mine, everything was split, so that was what I was most concerned about. The only reason a divorce was important at that point in my state is if I decided to get married again (and, for me, when I wanted to start dating again, because I wouldn't date unless I was actually divorced.) Since I knew I needed a while to heal, I wasn't too concerned about it.

About 3 or 4 months after we signed the SA, he e-mailed me, wanting to know what the status of the divorce paperwork was. I e-mailed back, informing him that I had told him previously that if he wanted a divorce so bad, he could go ahead and get it. I wasn't the one in such a rush to get married again, so I wasn't worried about it; everything I needed taken care of had been. He got mad about that, and said that he just figured that I had been in such a hurry to get the SA done that I would get the divorce done too. And that after all, he was just being polite and giving me the chance to file first before he did. I told him I just figured it was like everything else, that he expected me to do it and that if I didn't do it, it wouldn't get done.

Well, between me saying that to him, and, I'm sure, the OW harassing him about the divorce not being done yet, he had enough pressure that he did end up finally filing. Even then, he missed dates, and almost screwed it up because he didn't follow up on things like he should have. But in the end, yes, he was the one that filed. I still don't really understand why the OW was bugging him, but from things he said, I get the distinct feeling she was. She didn't end up getting a divorce until well after ours was final, something like a year later or more, I think.

As far as the breakup between he and OW... well, they were never exactly stable, anyway. My whole story from beginning to end could be a week-long Jerry Springer special. But anyway, from the beginning, when he first moved in with her, she would kick him out every few days or weeks. I think that's probably what happened the first time he called to come home; I figure she told him to get out, he didn't know where to go, and he called me trying to come home. I found out from my MIL (well, ex-MIL now) that the OW would kick him out, he would go live with them (his parents) for a week or so, then she would take him back, he would go live with her for a week or so, and it would repeat all over. During that time, I found him on a dating site trying to cheat on her. Later, I found out she was cheating on him too. Big surprise that they cheated on each other, huh?

During our separation, she got pregnant (this was just barely after he and I had stopped going to counseling.) That one was very tough for me, and he announced it to a whole lot of mutual friends on a website he runs. They only saw us once or twice a year, and the only thing they knew was that the last time the concerts rolled around, he showed up with her instead of me; they all assumed we had gotten a divorce and he had moved on. When he announced the pregnancy on the website, I let everyone know EXACTLY what had been going on, and he got really angry at me for that. I don't think any of those people have ever really felt the same about him since then - they all really liked me too.

She ended up losing that baby. The divorce wasn't final until about a year and a half after he had initially walked out of the house. They stayed together for about 6 or 7 months after the divorce was final, and broke up because she was running around with someone else... basically, she walked out on him.

But... the story doesn't quite end there. A few weeks later, she came back, pregnant, and they didn't know if the baby was his or not. Personally, reading everything he wrote about it, I think SHE knew. She had had weight loss surgery not too long before she got pregnant this time, and between that and losing the last baby, she had a pretty good idea it might be a rough pregnancy, which mean it might be an expensive pregnancy. She needed someone to take care of her and pay the bills. And I think she picked the guy most likely to do it.

So, they were together all through the pregnancy, which WAS a rough one - his parents helped and supported them both through it all a lot too. When the baby was born, he signed the affadavit of parentage, saying that he would be the father no matter what, and thinking he at least might be the bio-dad. When you sign an affadavit of parentage in this state, you have 90 days to change your mind. Three months after the baby was born, OW decided she just HAD to know who the "real" father was, so they did a mail-order DNA test, and lo-and-behold, it wasn't my EX. She then started running around with the bio-dad again, and within a couple of weeks took the baby, her other daughter (she has an older daughter from her first marriage which may or may not be her 1st husband's child) and left to go be with this other guy.

Who I really feel sorry for is my ex-in-laws. My ex-MIL was SO upset, and I'm sure my ex-FIL was too, he just doesn't really show it much. They lost a grandchild.

While it sounds like you should be feeling sorry for my EX too, after all, despite what he did to me, he became a father, loved this child, yada, yada.... don't feel too sorry for him. The way I found a lot of this out was different things he had posted on-line, asking for advice. One of the things was asking for legal advice after the DNA test when OW had started running around with the bio-dad again. He talked about how he loved this child to death, would do anything for her, but... bottom line was, how do I get out of the affadavit of parentage now? He had talked big about how he didn't care who the real dad was, he would love the child no matter what, etc. But then when he found out the truth, even though he had been playing daddy for three months already, his comments were that the mom was going to take the kid and he was never going to see her and he didn't want to get stuck paying child support for a kid he was never going to see and while he wished he could still be the dad, his finances just didn't allow for it at this time, and how could he get out of this now.

And I take back what I said... yes, I felt bad for my ex-ILs, but there are two others I felt really bad for too: those poor two little girls. I'm sorry, but child abuse isn't just hitting a child, and this was child abuse. OW used her older daughter as emotional blackmail with my EX too. Ah, but that's another story entirely.

I think the important phrase you've said is that he is only interested in doing what he wants to do. That was the key thing with my EX. He tried to fake interest in others' well-being, but in the end, everything was about him. It was always all about him and what he wanted, and if it didn't have something to do with him, he just wasn't interested. I know we all are self-interested to a certain extent, but I never realized how scary total self-absorption can be until I really saw how self-absorbed he was.

The thing that was hard for me was trying to protect myself against him and still be fair to him. Once things got going, he just started demanding whatever came to mind that he wanted. Whatever he didn't want, he would just say I could have, though. And he thought that was fair. Especially since he said I could have the condo, and most of the stuff in it. But then he would come back and keep remembering things in the house that he would want... like he was shopping at Wal-mart or something. He wanted to just forget about everything he owed, and let me handle it, since I always had. The thing is, I was the one who had paid for the house... he had not really even given me what a roommate would have over the years. He hadn't shared the responsibilities. He gave me some money, but it had actually gotten to be less and less over the years as both of us made more money. So as I saw it, the house and most of the stuff SHOULD have been mine, and didn't relieve him of his responsibilities at all.

That was the hardest part of the whole thing, I think. I think a big part of him going off and having the affair and such was him showing that he didn't have to live by my "rules", he could do whatever he wanted to do. So telling him he had to do what the SA said, telling him he owed money, he had to pay fines, he had to do certain things, just didn't sit well with him. That was the reason he started this in the first place, to be free of all those "have tos" and "shoulds" and "need tos". Getting him to follow through on everything for the settlement agreement, the paperwork for the house and the cars, paying his loans and bills, and things like that was very difficult. Think ahead about that. In my case, I held some of his property. He had several full-size arcade games. When I gave him all his stuff from the house, I refused to give him those until all his other obligations had been completed. I told him that if he did not get his loans that my name was on paid, or if he didn't get the fines at the MVA taken care of so that we could get each others' names of of each others' vehicles, I would start selling them to take care of things. If I hadn't done that, I would have never gotten him to take care of that stuff. It would have cost more to take him to court over it all than it was worth.

Wow, I've rambled on again. I hope some of this has helped. If you're anything like me, just knowing that you aren't alone...that someone else has dealt with this same experience is helpful. I know that I STILL feel sometimes like I have to apologize to my whole family for even marrying him in the first place. But the thing is... he wasn't like this when I married him. When I tell people the things he's done, I know they must be wondering how I could marry someone like that, and I keep protesting that I would never marry someone like that, he wasn't like that when I married him, honest! It's like someone came and switched out the guy I married with some pod monster twin about two year into our marriage. He's a completely different person!

I just have to accept that the person I thought I married never really existed at all. This guy I divorced just put up a really good front for a few years, and I fell for it. And that sweet, nice guy I thought I married... he was just a made-up character that that stranger I really married was acting out.

OG

My goodness, is my WH a clone of your EX?

I think the next big thing for him is a pregnancy with OW. Even though she has blown off her 3 teenage sons, she is DESPARATE to get pregnant again (she's in her mid 40s and she was trying to find ways to increase her chances of getting pregnant before the A was discovered.) Now WH swears up and down he does not want children at all and I think that is actually one of the truthful statements he's made in this whole mess. See if she gets pregnant all her attention is going to the baby--no more undivided attention for WH!! And he is not going to put up with that at all--if OW is not going to tend to every wish while looking at him with goo-goo eyes, she does not serve her purpose any more. But since they are having unprotected sex, there's always the chance. And it's my WH's MO to act first and then try to run away from the consequences later. My only prayer is that if she does get preggers, we are already divorced!

And the things you said about the house--that is my situation EXACTLY. I made the downpayment, bought most of the furniture and paid 70% - 80% of the monthly mortgage payments. So like you, as far as I am concerned the house IS mine!! That is the only outstanding issue between us (other than us waiving rights to each other's retirement accounts) in terms of finalizing the SA. Thank God I did not sign on his car loan or credit cards or student loans. The funny thing is he is starting to live off OW just like he lived off me--she pays for the apartment, the utilties and his cell phone (can you believe it?). He only pays HIS bills and helps with groceries. Talk about not being equal partners...

And he has started the "Wal-Mart" beahvior too. He got most of this stuff out the Sunday after he announced he was moving in with OW. But then it was: can I come over to get my pots and pans (he likes to cook you see and we have some nice cookware); can you leave my college diploma at your front desk at work and I'll pick it up; can you print off my resume and send it to me? After the resume request (which he never used BTW) I stopped responding to his requests. The latest one (on Monday) was for me to contact him to set up a "visitation schedule" for him to see the dogs because he misses them. I was so mad, then I laughed my head off at how ridiculous he's becoming. I also ignored that request too. I figure I can keep the pots and pans as a leverage point (I know he REALLY wants those) down the line. He will never get access to the dogs though (unless he goes to court and makes a judge order me to do it--again unlikely knowing him).

My prediction is that the money squeeze and/or him not wanting to deal with trying her trying to have visitation with her youngest son will do them in. But if she gets preggers, he may bolt b/c then he knows he's screwed both in terms of their fantasy R being done and the increased financial burden that he can't handle.

This is going to be a train wreck--I just hope Plan B keeps me out of the fallout!

You know, in spite of the fact that my FWH had told the OW that he had no intention of ever leaving me, that he could never consider even living with her, and that he had raised two children and didn't want to do it again (she had boys, 2 and 5 yo), she still did her best to get pregnant and even told him she was at one point, which turned out to be just one more desparate attempt to keep him involved with her once he started to try to end the A.

I think that both parties in an A have their very own version of reality (FOG)

Sometimes, when I am feeling peevish at all that has happened.....I imagine just how miserable FWH would be today if he had left me for OW.

I know it isn't productive, but I just can't help myself sometimes.

Who

SP2,
I hope it is okay to respond to you on this thread, even though we have two kids (this thread is about leaving WH when you don’t have kids). I can understand why that would be a factor. Yet, that’s not why I’m replying. I hope I didn't paint a bad picture to you in my other thread. You said "I read flameout's thread about his continued thoughts and anxiety over his OW even after returning to his marriage and working hard at recovery. It sent fear through my soul and brought me to tears--and he did not even live with his OW." The thoughts I have over OW is the pain she caused me after D-Day. Yeah, that picture of her being so good and wonderful surfaces on occasion, but I know for a fact that image is a lie, because OW proved it herself. If I were to lose my family tomorrow (which I don’t want to happen), I would never be able to see or face, not to mention even be with, OW ever again. One of the posts to my thread said I should do more soul searching, and I did – even with help of my friends – and I know it is because OW caused me so much pain. To have one image of someone, then have it reversed in a blink of an eye can cause anyone anxiety. I had such a good image of her for many years, then after D-Day she turned on me. Probably much like my wife had about me, but now she has her husband back, the man she married.

I've talked with my wife about this after I received those posts regarding my anxiety. She has been with me 25 years, and she said it is more about me and my personality than anything else. I tend to obsess over a lot of things, especially interpersonal relationships. I always want approval of others (I know, yuck - but it is true, and that is something I don't like about myself). There was a little Italian woman who I worked with about 10 years ago, at another company. She hated me and I didn’t care for her. It would have bothered me more, but I found out she hated most everyone, and most everyone hated her as well. So when a relationship, any relationship, I had goes bad I feel horrible for a long time after (well, the Italian woman being the exception). In the case of OW, it is the same thing, but more difficult because I gave her something I should not have, and she returned it with hate.

The thing is, the truth is - my marriage is worth working it out. My wife is worth it. Why else would I be here on MB wanting to find answers? Remember when I posted those anxiety posts? That was over a week ago. Things have been much better, and a lot of it is due to people like you and to these posts; seeing how things faired for others, seeing what destruction comes of going to live with OW - makes me so happy that I did not do that. I have been having great, wonderful days lately with no (or little) anxiety. Here’s another truth – yeah, after D-Day and before I jumped into MB, I wondered what life would have been like if I had gone with OW? I already knew in my heart it would have been horrible just for the simple fact that I would have destroyed my kids lives, my wife’s life and all of our friends and family, but I did wonder. When I got here and started reading the posts of those who had WHs going off and already living with OW, I didn’t see anything happy or positive in any of them. Not one. What an insight that was for me. And heck, that was without OW beating the WH up – and they still aren’t happy.

Today my wife and I went and picked up our daughter from camp. She’s been gone a week. We did it together and it was great; I thought how I would have missed out on that. In fact, I was reading some of the MB posts to my wife on our way down to the church. And after that we went to my other daughter’s first band performance – my wife and I sat outside in the rain, huddled over an umbrella, watching her play while we held hands. And right now we are getting ready to leave for the 10pm showing of Ratatouille at the theater - me, my wife and my two daughters. If my wife had given up, had let me go with OW, I wouldn't have these precious moments. Neither would she.

I know what I would have been doing right about now if I had gone with OW – I would be fighting with OW all the time; I discovered we are so different anyway. She goes to the casino, I don’t. She goes to her brother’s house a lot and I can’t stand her brother. She hates to read, I love to read. She sees no value in opinions of others, only her own, whereas I value what others have to say (hey, I’m here on MB, right?). She has no ambition, I want to publish novels (I’ve written five, won 2 contest, but have sold none to date – and this A stripped over 2 years of my will to write away from me). OW drives like an 80 year old woman with poor vision and a bum leg, and I drive like I’m Jason Bourne (she hated my driving – I could just see how it would have worked out now). OW used whining and passive aggressive behavior on me, I am more direct and in your face. And lastly, OW tried to take me from my family, and I didn’t want to lose my family.

So, I have anxiety about a lot of things, and yes, what OW did to me, to my family - well, that's a big one. But any anxiety I feel is so much less than it was 3 months ago, and 3 months before that. Yeah, I had a couple of attacks in the last several weeks, but those are less frequent than before as well. It just takes courage, patience, love, understanding, commitment – for both my wife and I.

I’m not saying that staying with your H is the right choice; he is different than me, our situations are different, you are different than my wife. But I just didn’t want to give the wrong impression. I guess I don’t want to be a bad example, even though I probably am a lot lately (remember, I like approval from others…). I talked some today with my wife and asked her if she feels anything out of sorts about me or our situation, to let me know. I need to know. She assured me she would, but it was helpful that I at least talk to her, tell her, explain to her, so she doesn’t get the wrong idea and we head back down two separate paths.

I think we just missed the 10pm showing. Although I found out we are going tomorrow during the day; my daughter was so tired from the bus trip from camp she fell asleep. So, smartiepants, what can I say – after an A there are all kinds of challenges ahead while going down (or up, I should say) the road to recovery. But they are challenges, not burdens to carry and weigh us down. And it’s like frognomore said, some of us are only a year out, and it takes time. If I can have days like this one, or even this entire past week, after one year out, then my wife and I have no problems. We have challenges, but at least we will face them together, just like we’ve done the last 25 years.

Next Tuesday is our 25th Anniversary. I’m excited. I’m happy. My wife is too. If we had given up, we wouldn’t have that, and next Tuesday would have been a burden, not a blessing. Just a thought.

Jaded asked “I have seen the question asked ‘knowing what you now know, if you just meet your WH today, would you still marry him?’ I minimized my windows on my computer and went and got my wife, brought her into my office, sat her down on the chaise and asked her that same question. She said “you mean, knowing everything I know now, the last 25 years plus the A?” I said yeah. She got quiet and tears rolled down her eyes and she said “yeah, I think I would.” We hugged and cried a bit together. She then reminded me that our MC pretty much asked us that same question – he had turned to her on our first MC session and asked “Why are you here? Why do you want to save this marriage?” She said because she and I have one life together, and it is our life, we are intertwined to one another and that she has the husband she married back again. She told me she had already answered that question, and tonight the answer was still the same. She said we had some really good times in our marriage, and we did. She married me because I didn’t drink, and because I was tall and dark and – well, you know – and also alcohol had been so prevalent in both our families growing up and neither of us touch it.

This thread is about deciding to leave when you don’t have kids, and I know I can’t honestly answer what would have happened if we did not have kids. My wife said that we would have either worked out our intimacy issues way before it got to this point, or we may have just divorced outright years ago if we could not have worked it out. I honestly would like to think I would have still stayed in the M if we didn’t have kids, and I would like to think my wife would have still wanted me if I had an A and wanted to work things out with her. The thing is, my wife’s answer above would still hold true – if we had lived together for 25 years without kids, we would still have one shared life. It would not have negated the fact that OW, as it turns out, was actually the wrong woman for me, and I was probably the wrong man for her; and conversely, my wife turns out to be the right and only woman for me. Regardless of the kids we brought into this world. My wife and I even talked about this after D-Day, and at first I thought it was for just the kids, but I realized I chose my wife. And she did with me, as she told the counselor. And the thing is, our marriage vows said until death do us part and there was no mention of the children at all. Even Biblically, my wife has the right to leave me for having an A, but yet she chose not to (I think that’s awesome), even though I violated the vow of forsaking all others.

So, didn’t mean to take up so much of this thread, but you’ve seen my posts before and I have a proclivity to do what my boss calls ‘engaging in pleonasm’. I hope this has helped. It may not apply to your situation, but who knows.

Flameout

Don't ever worry about painting a bad picture of yourself to me. I think you are amazing--to have done the work you have in recovery to the kind of M you and your wife wanted. I appreaciate your honesty--I wish my WH had it in him to be the same way.

The reason why I wrote what I did was because you seem to me to have a core (of strength, morals, conscience) that did not take you over the brink of leaving your family to live with OW, and which gave you a foundation to recover your M. And yet you struggle. Now if someone like you struggles (and I am glad to hear things are getting better BTW in terms of the anxiety), I cannot imagine my WH being able to withstand it.

The other difference I see b/t you and my WH is you actively chose your wife, your M. So while you may still have thoughts about OW (and who wouldn't--for good or bad the affair partner has a deep emotional impact in the WS's life), your wife now comes FIRST in your life and in your heart. I am convinced that if WH came back, at best OW and I always would compete for his devotion or that I would be "sloppy seconds". Neither alternative is acceptable to me. My WH has a tendency to wallow in this failures, rather than learn and move on from them. One of things he told me before he moved out was one of things he did not like about me was the fact that my version of supporting him was telling him to make active choices to change the things he wanted to change in his life--e.g.if he said he wanted to have more money, I would say "well, try to find a job that pays more, or get a second job to supplement your income. I'll help you in anyway I can." I think OW says things like "Poor baby. You are so lovely and talented you should have more money. The fact that you don't just shows how unjust the world is." Maybe my response was wrong--I don't know. I do know I do not believe things just get handed to you, nor should they. (In truth, I forgot this where my M was concerned--I took it for granted. That helped get me and WH where we are today, though I put responsibility on him for choosing to have an A. But lesson learned for me.)

There is value in working for things, in earning them (whether it is education, money, power, love, friendship--anything that really worth something!) My WH, OTOH, thinks he deserves to have everything placed before him with minimal or no effort on his part. And when that does not happen, he cuts and runs.

So keep posting!! Whatever happens b/t me and WH, you and others on this board are part of my recovery efforts--for me! I am proud of you and happy for you and your wife.

SP2

SP2,
Thanks for the reply. I think the life you have led, or are leading now with your WH, is a tough one. I honestly can’t imagine how difficult it is. I caught something funny in what you said. You said “I think you are amazing.” The last time I heard that was from OW; when she had said it, I found it odd for her to find someone amazing who was, at the time, currently having an affair with her. I mean, what is so amazing about that? And after D-Day, I turned out to be not so amazing to her. That phrase just triggered that memory (see what I mean about triggers?), but I do appreciate the compliment.

I also like your view of things – “make active choices to change the things he wanted to change in his life. … There is value in working for things, in earning them (whether it is education, money, power, love, friendship--anything that really worth something!)” I love that philosophy. It is difficult to envision someone who would not welcome that kind of support. You said he “has a tendency to wallow in his failures.” Does he have depression? Having an A is like one of the biggest failures anyone can have; so is he wallowing in that as well? When you described how the OW would treat him, basically playing on his weaknesses and coddling him, I thought the same thing of my former OW (FOW?). Oh, insert comment here – my wife came up with a name for OW that would spell COW, but I can’t repeat it here – but you can guess. It seems like the other women always tend to say things that the WH wants to hear – it amazes me how attune they become to our needs and our egos. Once they have a handle on it, they tend to pour it on, I think in an effort to get what they want. I do have to admit I was wallowing in self pity myself before the A, as you can tell in my Plea to Wives post. Now I see where that got me. It’s one thing to pity yourself, or be a martyr, but it becomes worse when you have OW pouring it on as well. My OW tried to convince me that God had abandoned us both. My wife set her straight on that when she had told her off on the phone.

You said “maybe my response was wrong, I don’t know.” You do know – your response was the right one. Your response is just that, yours - not the OW’s response. I think it shows who you are, and between the two responses, yours is the better of the two. Yours empowers. I think her response to him is more self-serving than anything else.

You have a really good outlook on life. I think – no, I know – you will be fine no matter if WH remains your H or not. I can tell that by what you write, and also by your handle – smartiepants. I love that pseudonym BTW.

Hey flameout!

Sorry for the trigger. Lord knows I don't want to go into OW land (I've got enough troubles!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

As I take time to think about my WH, I believe he is (and has been) depressed for a long time. One night before he left to be with OW, he sat in tears and said he was 40 years old and he felt like his life was over. I sat in sheer amazement and just looked at him--we had a wonderful home, two great doggies, he was doing cooking classes at his job (which he really enjoyed), we had just returned from a great trip to Provence (it was my birthday present to him for his 40th). Before the A, we were discussing what we would like in our next home, and if I got another promotion would he consider going to culinary school full-time so he could pursue his dream of being a chef. His life was over?? I thought we were just getting started!

But if I suggested that he might be suffering from depression, he blew it off. He insisted he would never take ADs--he wanted to feel his emotions, his suffering. This is what I am talking about when I say he likes to wallow in this failures or suffering or what you will. When he walked out, he told me "I have to be with OW and have that relationship implode and then go and be alone." I was tempted to reply "Maybe I get the being alone part. But why would you invest time and energy in a relationship that you are convinced is going to implode?" But then I remembered trying to educate a fogged out WH, and kept my mouth shut. Damn that logical mind of mine!!!

Interestingly, since he left to be with OW and I began Plan B he has become very insistent about seeing me and the dogs. The attempts at contact (via email) are now becoming daily rather than weekly. I know things are heating up with OW (in a bad way) because she is starting to get nasty with her BH over their separation process. And I know my WH--he hates drama! Thankfully I am choosing to continue a dark Plan B and keep away from as much of the drama as possible. I pray he wakes up and comes out on the other side of this a better person--for his own sake.

If it weren't for our daughters I think I probably would have killed my WXH by now!

No really, if it weren't for our daughters I would have dumped the loser a long time ago. Instead as it turned out I tried to make the marriage work only to be dumped by him anyway AND have him hurt our daughters so badly that sometimes I feel nothing but searing hatred towards him now.

I can't believe I ever had anything to do with such a loser and severely regret having children with him. Not saying I don't love and appreciate my precious daughters... just would give anything in the world to magically erase all memory of him and all the harm he did from our lives forever!

Two of three daughters see him on rare occasion - he doesn't deserve it IMHO. He's just plain evil and I hope someday they have the courage and self-esteem to tell him the truth about how much he's hurt them. (For now they're afraid to show him their hurt because they KNOW he will just avoid contact with them - yup he's that selfish and cruel)

I love my daughters immensely and have tried hard to help them recover. It's infuriating and scary to see how much damage he's done to them. PLEASE do NOT have children with an adulterer! You're much better off making a fresh start with someone new. There are plenty of people who would not cheat. There's really no excuse for it. Marry a good person who won't hurt you or your future children this way! Let the loser cheaters have each other. Decent folks, people with integrity, should simply stop having anything to do with adulterers. If cheaters could only get involved with other cheaters then at least they would only be hurting other cheaters and far fewer children would have to go through the divorce of their parents.

OK, I'm lost, what does "POS" mean?

I'm guessing from the context I see it in it's not a positive thing.

Piece Of Sh*t = POS

meremortal

I definitely agree aabout not having children with a cheater. It is a moot point for me because I cannot have kids anyway, but my WH's OW does have three teen sons and the damage she is inflicting on them is beyond comprehension. She walked out on them 3 months ago, and now they will have NOTHING to do with her. I pray for those young men daily.

And to top it off, OW wants to have children with my WH!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Go figure. Now WH does not want kids b/c it takes away attention from him and he literally cannot afford one child (he'd have to work two jobs to afford the food and diapers and all the other things babies need OR he'd have to work three jobs if OW did not want to work--and she did not work when she had her boys with her BH.

If she ends up getting preggers, so be it. But for the sake of that child, I also pray that does not happen...

This thread hits home for me. I've been deciding whether or not to post on it for a while.

I'm drawn to this board because I was a BS well before I came here. My wife of 10 years cheated on me. We went into MC, and we each went into IC. Six months later she really wanted to reconcile. I divorced her. Six years after that I can say that divorcing her is the best decision I've ever made. We had married comparatively young and, as it turns out, 10 years after the marriage we were not really that compatible. We weren't compatible socially, sexually or domestically. She's the one who cheated, but I was damned unhappy too.

This is one reason I have a tough time with some of these threads. Any discussion that starts with the principle "marriage is better than divorce" flies in the face of my personal experience where I'm certain my life is better because I am no longer with my first wife.

We did not have any kids. It would have been different with kids. Way different.