No, I don’t think it’s a ridiculous comparison bigk… In my knowledge (according to some medical research done) some homosexual orientation does have a genetic origin e.g. a genetic deformity/mutation/mistake (to use your words). This is not always the case though…not all orientation is genetic…sexual orientation can also be the end product of a complex interaction between biological, psychological and/or social factors in the first (early) years of a person's life.

Anyway, just as the Bible doesn’t make any reference to genetic deformity/mutation/mistake regarding people who are born with both female and male genitals or other physical male/female attributes simultaneously, it doesn’t make reference to genetic deformity/mutation/mistake regarding homosexual orientation either. The fact that the Bible doesn’t make any reference to this phenomenon, doesn’t mean that it don’t exist.

I certainly don’t think God condemn a homosexual or bisexual orientated person whether a person was born that way or became that way through biological, psychological and/or social factors in the early years of life. He only condemns following a homosexual lifestyle and performing homosexual acts. Although a person might not have control over their sexual orientation, they do have control on their behavior and actions.

Do I think it’s unfair for a homosexual orientated person whose orientation can’t be changed to have no ethical way of obtaining SF? Yes, I do and I think it’s must be extremely difficult…and I have much empathy and compassion for such people. To live as a homosexual orientated believer in an ethic and responsible way within the broader society where promiscuousness also flourish, can’t be easy. I have heard and read of many good, Christian people who have severe internal suffering and feelings of guilt & shame because of their homosexual orientation.

Obviously many homosexual orientated people can’t and don’t live out their orientation because of their religion, beliefs, guilt, shame and fear to be rejected by God, church and society. As a result, many of them want to appear ‘normal’ and enter marriages in spite of their sexual orientation. Many also do this because they think marriage will ‘cure’ their homosexual orientation and will 'hide' their orientation from the world.

It’s not that simple bigk. Emotional attraction is not the same as having a romantic attraction towards someone e.g which will include “erotic” feelings and physical attraction as well… Again, that can only happen with a person of the same sex if there is a homosexual/bisexual orientation or tendencies IMO.

You say it didn’t happen simply because I didn’t breach the threshold. If that is true, then why did I became romantically attracted to FOM and not any of my female friends (or therapist) who is/was even better than FOM in filling my need for conversation? The answer is obvious bigk, and the "didn't breach the threshold" is clearly not the answer here.

I do know some people who are homosexual…not people close to me, but I still know them…good, decent, Christian people who live single and celibate life’s because of their faith but who are still condemned and judged by others on the grounds of their sexual orientation. The people that condemn them believes (like you and MEDC) that orientation don’t exist and that those homosexual feelings and tendencies are a choice. But the only “choice” here is to not act on that orientation.

Also, as I’ve said in my previous post - I’ve also heard and read of other cases where people are struggling with their homosexual orientation and don’t want to be that way because of their religion etc.… I do have much empathy and compassion for such people, but many churches and some other people in society still condemn/judge them because of a lack of knowledge and understanding about homosexual orientation and the fact that such orientation can’t always be changed (depending on reasons for the orientation e.g. whether it has a genetic origin or other factors in early years).

The moment a person choose to perform homosexual acts it’s indeed a choice because everyone have control over their behavior whether they are homosexually orientated or not. As I’ve said yesterday, it’s not the homosexual orientation that’s a sin, but the acting on it e.g. practicing homosexual acts and a homosexual lifestyle. THAT’s why God was so furious with Sodom and Gomorah. It’s not their orientation that was the issue here, it was their actions.

Unfortunately many people are born with genetic deformity/mutation/mistakes…sometimes it’s biological and sometimes psychological/mental…sometimes both… If I question God about the phenomenon of people who are born with a homosexual orientation, I must also question Him about a lot of under conditions that is “abnormal”.

For example, I’m born with a genetic tendency towards depression (OCD with associated depression and anxiety to be specific). The cause for the disorder is not only genetic, but I know it’s a big factor, because there is a history of these disorders in my family (also a few cases of suicide – 7 cases to be exactly). I don’t question God on why He has created me with this "abnormality". I just accept it, take all the help/resources available to help “control” this disorder (to make it easier for me to live with it) and go on with my live.

That's quite a stretch Suzet - let's see what we have learned here shall we?

1. You see medical science as written in stone and superior to the inerrant word of God. The fact that medical science changes it's opinion every week and the Bible has remained unchanged for thousands of years is not important to you.

2. The genetic mistakes/mutations to which I referred to are RARE. What you see as a homosexual/bisexual orientation is very common apparently, whereas I just see that people have erred from the word of God.

3. Homosexuals CAN become straight again. In fact there are many evangelists with ministries based on the way God changed their lives and are happily married in hetrosexual relationships.

4. There is NO support for your views in the Word of God.

5. Somehow you have decided that I am judging people for a homosexual orientation. I am not. I agree that it is practicing homosexuality that is the sin here. MEDC can speak for himself. There is help available for those people who have become gender confused by environment, choice or whatever.

5. Clearly, we have come full circle yet again regarding the LoveBank. Just when I thought we were at a point of agreement as well. Your extentions and inventions of new love bank theory are not supported by Dr Harley.

I don't see any point continuing this discussion with you Suzet as we clearly don't have a common frame of reference ie Love Bank theory or most importantly, the plain and clear teaching of the word of God.

Actually Suzet - here's a fun 2 minute pop quiz. It will illustrate how far your thinking differs from the Bible ok? (Or how much your thinking has been influenced by the secular world)

1. Adam and Eve - literal, real people? Yes/No
2. Creation - literal historical truth - 6x24hr days? Yes/No
3. Flood - literal, worldwide? Yes/No
4. Virgin Birth? Yes/No

**edit**

Suzet is seriously misguided from both a Biblical and practical standpoint. The gay agenda...yes, an admitted to agenda.... was always to convince people that a gay lifestyle was more normal than believed. There was actually a movement to get people to believe that 10% of the population is gay. It actually is closer to 3-4% for men and even less for women. The same holds true for the gay gene....if it were to be proven, which it never has been, that being gay is predetermined...gay people would be able to seek out and win equal rights based upon their medical condition. That is all that this has ever been about. There are countless numbers of scientists that have tried to find the genetic slant towards being a sausage stuffer...nothing has been proven. Now, they are able to find genetic markers for the most obscure diseases at times...so I imagine, it wouldn't be tough to come up with one for something that impacts so many people.
This is nothing more than people looking for excuses for their bad behavior. Amazingly, it is Suzet that is their champion...someone that has spent several years coming up with excuses for bad behavior.
I think what we will find is that children are slanted towards homsexual when they are conceived with a Liza Minelli record playing in the background.

LOL MEDC. I am surprised Suzet claims to be a born again believer and holds these views. I would not have even commented after my first post on the matter if she was not a Christian.

smartiepants2 - I'm sorry for threadjacking your thread here. I'm done with this. I broke one of my own rules about not getting into religious arguments on MB.

apologies to all.

well, she claims to be a born again believed and yet comes up with the most ridiculous rationalizations for hurting other people. her pronouncements about her faith seem pretty funny to me given her willingness to emotionally rape the woman she betrayed on a daily basis.

each and every BS on this site should think for a moment about what their lives would be like if it was Suzet driving the disclosure bus. They would be kept in the dak and not know about the cancer that was IMPLANTED into their marriage. The BW in her case does not have the ability to protect her marriage from the clutches of a woman (Suzet) that not only had an A with her H...but that still has occasional "accidental" contact with her H. Suzet is showing herself to be evil beyond measure in that regard. She victimizes that woman every single day so that she can have her play thing close by should her desires be rekindled.

okay, SP.... I am done too...sorry for the TJ.

But nothing of those medical research or my opinions is in contrast with the Bible bigk… The Bible and God clearly teaches that practicing homosexual acts or lifestyle is a sin… there is no reference to homosexual orientation (just as their isn’t about other “abnormalities) because God is only concerned with the sin of homosexual acts and not practising that behavior.

The only time a homosexual/bisexual orientated person erred from the word of God is when they practicing homosexual behavior.

Yes I agree here. Homosexuals can indeed become straight again. Whether sexual orientation can be changed or not depends on WHY the orientation exists in the first place e.g. whether it’s genetic or factors from early years (environmental etc).

But there is nothing that speaks against it either. Again, the Bible only make reference to people who perform homosexual acts.

Sorry If I made the wrong assumption.

I thought you said in your opinion something such as orientation doesn’t exist. You sentence above doesn’t’ reflect that view.

Glad we can agree on this one thing.

Yes, some become “gender confused” by environment or choice and there is indeed help available for such people. As I’ve said previously, there are cases where sexual orientation can be changed, but homosexual orientation because of genetic origin is simply not one of them…unless a miracle is performed by God.

IMO I’ve made not “extension” and “inventions” on the LB theory bigk…neither have I deviate from it IMO. I simply don’t belief your theory that a heterosexual person can get romantically attracted to a same sex person. That’s all. Probably if you ask Dr Harley personally he will agree that this can only happen if a person has homosexual or bisexual orientation or tendencies…I don’t know. Neither you or me can speak for him.

Again, the Bible don’t say anything on sexual orientation, only speaks about homosexual behavior.

I agree there is probably no purpose in continuing with this discussion bigk since we clearly have very different views and opinions on this subject.

SP -

Yes, your story is sounding a lot like mine. Not too long after the final break, when it was clear we were going to get divorced, my EX told me, "I see us more as best friends rather than as husband and wife. I still see us going to the movies, and talking every day, and all that kind of stuff like we always do, but just not you as my wife." And I told him that I would NEVER be friends with someone who could do the things that he had done to me. Like you said, he just wanted to keep his options open, I'm sure.

Yes, my EX did finally file for the divorce, but I think it was only because he felt like he had to. After we had the settlement agreement in place, I didn't do anything. As I said, I knew that everything was taken care of, we had gotten the condo switched over to my name only, I knew all my retirement stuff was mine, everything was split, so that was what I was most concerned about. The only reason a divorce was important at that point in my state is if I decided to get married again (and, for me, when I wanted to start dating again, because I wouldn't date unless I was actually divorced.) Since I knew I needed a while to heal, I wasn't too concerned about it.

About 3 or 4 months after we signed the SA, he e-mailed me, wanting to know what the status of the divorce paperwork was. I e-mailed back, informing him that I had told him previously that if he wanted a divorce so bad, he could go ahead and get it. I wasn't the one in such a rush to get married again, so I wasn't worried about it; everything I needed taken care of had been. He got mad about that, and said that he just figured that I had been in such a hurry to get the SA done that I would get the divorce done too. And that after all, he was just being polite and giving me the chance to file first before he did. I told him I just figured it was like everything else, that he expected me to do it and that if I didn't do it, it wouldn't get done.

Well, between me saying that to him, and, I'm sure, the OW harassing him about the divorce not being done yet, he had enough pressure that he did end up finally filing. Even then, he missed dates, and almost screwed it up because he didn't follow up on things like he should have. But in the end, yes, he was the one that filed. I still don't really understand why the OW was bugging him, but from things he said, I get the distinct feeling she was. She didn't end up getting a divorce until well after ours was final, something like a year later or more, I think.

As far as the breakup between he and OW... well, they were never exactly stable, anyway. My whole story from beginning to end could be a week-long Jerry Springer special. But anyway, from the beginning, when he first moved in with her, she would kick him out every few days or weeks. I think that's probably what happened the first time he called to come home; I figure she told him to get out, he didn't know where to go, and he called me trying to come home. I found out from my MIL (well, ex-MIL now) that the OW would kick him out, he would go live with them (his parents) for a week or so, then she would take him back, he would go live with her for a week or so, and it would repeat all over. During that time, I found him on a dating site trying to cheat on her. Later, I found out she was cheating on him too. Big surprise that they cheated on each other, huh?

During our separation, she got pregnant (this was just barely after he and I had stopped going to counseling.) That one was very tough for me, and he announced it to a whole lot of mutual friends on a website he runs. They only saw us once or twice a year, and the only thing they knew was that the last time the concerts rolled around, he showed up with her instead of me; they all assumed we had gotten a divorce and he had moved on. When he announced the pregnancy on the website, I let everyone know EXACTLY what had been going on, and he got really angry at me for that. I don't think any of those people have ever really felt the same about him since then - they all really liked me too.

She ended up losing that baby. The divorce wasn't final until about a year and a half after he had initially walked out of the house. They stayed together for about 6 or 7 months after the divorce was final, and broke up because she was running around with someone else... basically, she walked out on him.

But... the story doesn't quite end there. A few weeks later, she came back, pregnant, and they didn't know if the baby was his or not. Personally, reading everything he wrote about it, I think SHE knew. She had had weight loss surgery not too long before she got pregnant this time, and between that and losing the last baby, she had a pretty good idea it might be a rough pregnancy, which mean it might be an expensive pregnancy. She needed someone to take care of her and pay the bills. And I think she picked the guy most likely to do it.

So, they were together all through the pregnancy, which WAS a rough one - his parents helped and supported them both through it all a lot too. When the baby was born, he signed the affadavit of parentage, saying that he would be the father no matter what, and thinking he at least might be the bio-dad. When you sign an affadavit of parentage in this state, you have 90 days to change your mind. Three months after the baby was born, OW decided she just HAD to know who the "real" father was, so they did a mail-order DNA test, and lo-and-behold, it wasn't my EX. She then started running around with the bio-dad again, and within a couple of weeks took the baby, her other daughter (she has an older daughter from her first marriage which may or may not be her 1st husband's child) and left to go be with this other guy.

Who I really feel sorry for is my ex-in-laws. My ex-MIL was SO upset, and I'm sure my ex-FIL was too, he just doesn't really show it much. They lost a grandchild.

While it sounds like you should be feeling sorry for my EX too, after all, despite what he did to me, he became a father, loved this child, yada, yada.... don't feel too sorry for him. The way I found a lot of this out was different things he had posted on-line, asking for advice. One of the things was asking for legal advice after the DNA test when OW had started running around with the bio-dad again. He talked about how he loved this child to death, would do anything for her, but... bottom line was, how do I get out of the affadavit of parentage now? He had talked big about how he didn't care who the real dad was, he would love the child no matter what, etc. But then when he found out the truth, even though he had been playing daddy for three months already, his comments were that the mom was going to take the kid and he was never going to see her and he didn't want to get stuck paying child support for a kid he was never going to see and while he wished he could still be the dad, his finances just didn't allow for it at this time, and how could he get out of this now.

And I take back what I said... yes, I felt bad for my ex-ILs, but there are two others I felt really bad for too: those poor two little girls. I'm sorry, but child abuse isn't just hitting a child, and this was child abuse. OW used her older daughter as emotional blackmail with my EX too. Ah, but that's another story entirely.

I think the important phrase you've said is that he is only interested in doing what he wants to do. That was the key thing with my EX. He tried to fake interest in others' well-being, but in the end, everything was about him. It was always all about him and what he wanted, and if it didn't have something to do with him, he just wasn't interested. I know we all are self-interested to a certain extent, but I never realized how scary total self-absorption can be until I really saw how self-absorbed he was.

The thing that was hard for me was trying to protect myself against him and still be fair to him. Once things got going, he just started demanding whatever came to mind that he wanted. Whatever he didn't want, he would just say I could have, though. And he thought that was fair. Especially since he said I could have the condo, and most of the stuff in it. But then he would come back and keep remembering things in the house that he would want... like he was shopping at Wal-mart or something. He wanted to just forget about everything he owed, and let me handle it, since I always had. The thing is, I was the one who had paid for the house... he had not really even given me what a roommate would have over the years. He hadn't shared the responsibilities. He gave me some money, but it had actually gotten to be less and less over the years as both of us made more money. So as I saw it, the house and most of the stuff SHOULD have been mine, and didn't relieve him of his responsibilities at all.

That was the hardest part of the whole thing, I think. I think a big part of him going off and having the affair and such was him showing that he didn't have to live by my "rules", he could do whatever he wanted to do. So telling him he had to do what the SA said, telling him he owed money, he had to pay fines, he had to do certain things, just didn't sit well with him. That was the reason he started this in the first place, to be free of all those "have tos" and "shoulds" and "need tos". Getting him to follow through on everything for the settlement agreement, the paperwork for the house and the cars, paying his loans and bills, and things like that was very difficult. Think ahead about that. In my case, I held some of his property. He had several full-size arcade games. When I gave him all his stuff from the house, I refused to give him those until all his other obligations had been completed. I told him that if he did not get his loans that my name was on paid, or if he didn't get the fines at the MVA taken care of so that we could get each others' names of of each others' vehicles, I would start selling them to take care of things. If I hadn't done that, I would have never gotten him to take care of that stuff. It would have cost more to take him to court over it all than it was worth.

Wow, I've rambled on again. I hope some of this has helped. If you're anything like me, just knowing that you aren't alone...that someone else has dealt with this same experience is helpful. I know that I STILL feel sometimes like I have to apologize to my whole family for even marrying him in the first place. But the thing is... he wasn't like this when I married him. When I tell people the things he's done, I know they must be wondering how I could marry someone like that, and I keep protesting that I would never marry someone like that, he wasn't like that when I married him, honest! It's like someone came and switched out the guy I married with some pod monster twin about two year into our marriage. He's a completely different person!

I just have to accept that the person I thought I married never really existed at all. This guy I divorced just put up a really good front for a few years, and I fell for it. And that sweet, nice guy I thought I married... he was just a made-up character that that stranger I really married was acting out.

OG

My goodness, is my WH a clone of your EX?

I think the next big thing for him is a pregnancy with OW. Even though she has blown off her 3 teenage sons, she is DESPARATE to get pregnant again (she's in her mid 40s and she was trying to find ways to increase her chances of getting pregnant before the A was discovered.) Now WH swears up and down he does not want children at all and I think that is actually one of the truthful statements he's made in this whole mess. See if she gets pregnant all her attention is going to the baby--no more undivided attention for WH!! And he is not going to put up with that at all--if OW is not going to tend to every wish while looking at him with goo-goo eyes, she does not serve her purpose any more. But since they are having unprotected sex, there's always the chance. And it's my WH's MO to act first and then try to run away from the consequences later. My only prayer is that if she does get preggers, we are already divorced!

And the things you said about the house--that is my situation EXACTLY. I made the downpayment, bought most of the furniture and paid 70% - 80% of the monthly mortgage payments. So like you, as far as I am concerned the house IS mine!! That is the only outstanding issue between us (other than us waiving rights to each other's retirement accounts) in terms of finalizing the SA. Thank God I did not sign on his car loan or credit cards or student loans. The funny thing is he is starting to live off OW just like he lived off me--she pays for the apartment, the utilties and his cell phone (can you believe it?). He only pays HIS bills and helps with groceries. Talk about not being equal partners...

And he has started the "Wal-Mart" beahvior too. He got most of this stuff out the Sunday after he announced he was moving in with OW. But then it was: can I come over to get my pots and pans (he likes to cook you see and we have some nice cookware); can you leave my college diploma at your front desk at work and I'll pick it up; can you print off my resume and send it to me? After the resume request (which he never used BTW) I stopped responding to his requests. The latest one (on Monday) was for me to contact him to set up a "visitation schedule" for him to see the dogs because he misses them. I was so mad, then I laughed my head off at how ridiculous he's becoming. I also ignored that request too. I figure I can keep the pots and pans as a leverage point (I know he REALLY wants those) down the line. He will never get access to the dogs though (unless he goes to court and makes a judge order me to do it--again unlikely knowing him).

My prediction is that the money squeeze and/or him not wanting to deal with trying her trying to have visitation with her youngest son will do them in. But if she gets preggers, he may bolt b/c then he knows he's screwed both in terms of their fantasy R being done and the increased financial burden that he can't handle.

This is going to be a train wreck--I just hope Plan B keeps me out of the fallout!

You know, in spite of the fact that my FWH had told the OW that he had no intention of ever leaving me, that he could never consider even living with her, and that he had raised two children and didn't want to do it again (she had boys, 2 and 5 yo), she still did her best to get pregnant and even told him she was at one point, which turned out to be just one more desparate attempt to keep him involved with her once he started to try to end the A.

I think that both parties in an A have their very own version of reality (FOG)

Sometimes, when I am feeling peevish at all that has happened.....I imagine just how miserable FWH would be today if he had left me for OW.

I know it isn't productive, but I just can't help myself sometimes.

Who

SP2,
I hope it is okay to respond to you on this thread, even though we have two kids (this thread is about leaving WH when you don’t have kids). I can understand why that would be a factor. Yet, that’s not why I’m replying. I hope I didn't paint a bad picture to you in my other thread. You said "I read flameout's thread about his continued thoughts and anxiety over his OW even after returning to his marriage and working hard at recovery. It sent fear through my soul and brought me to tears--and he did not even live with his OW." The thoughts I have over OW is the pain she caused me after D-Day. Yeah, that picture of her being so good and wonderful surfaces on occasion, but I know for a fact that image is a lie, because OW proved it herself. If I were to lose my family tomorrow (which I don’t want to happen), I would never be able to see or face, not to mention even be with, OW ever again. One of the posts to my thread said I should do more soul searching, and I did – even with help of my friends – and I know it is because OW caused me so much pain. To have one image of someone, then have it reversed in a blink of an eye can cause anyone anxiety. I had such a good image of her for many years, then after D-Day she turned on me. Probably much like my wife had about me, but now she has her husband back, the man she married.

I've talked with my wife about this after I received those posts regarding my anxiety. She has been with me 25 years, and she said it is more about me and my personality than anything else. I tend to obsess over a lot of things, especially interpersonal relationships. I always want approval of others (I know, yuck - but it is true, and that is something I don't like about myself). There was a little Italian woman who I worked with about 10 years ago, at another company. She hated me and I didn’t care for her. It would have bothered me more, but I found out she hated most everyone, and most everyone hated her as well. So when a relationship, any relationship, I had goes bad I feel horrible for a long time after (well, the Italian woman being the exception). In the case of OW, it is the same thing, but more difficult because I gave her something I should not have, and she returned it with hate.

The thing is, the truth is - my marriage is worth working it out. My wife is worth it. Why else would I be here on MB wanting to find answers? Remember when I posted those anxiety posts? That was over a week ago. Things have been much better, and a lot of it is due to people like you and to these posts; seeing how things faired for others, seeing what destruction comes of going to live with OW - makes me so happy that I did not do that. I have been having great, wonderful days lately with no (or little) anxiety. Here’s another truth – yeah, after D-Day and before I jumped into MB, I wondered what life would have been like if I had gone with OW? I already knew in my heart it would have been horrible just for the simple fact that I would have destroyed my kids lives, my wife’s life and all of our friends and family, but I did wonder. When I got here and started reading the posts of those who had WHs going off and already living with OW, I didn’t see anything happy or positive in any of them. Not one. What an insight that was for me. And heck, that was without OW beating the WH up – and they still aren’t happy.

Today my wife and I went and picked up our daughter from camp. She’s been gone a week. We did it together and it was great; I thought how I would have missed out on that. In fact, I was reading some of the MB posts to my wife on our way down to the church. And after that we went to my other daughter’s first band performance – my wife and I sat outside in the rain, huddled over an umbrella, watching her play while we held hands. And right now we are getting ready to leave for the 10pm showing of Ratatouille at the theater - me, my wife and my two daughters. If my wife had given up, had let me go with OW, I wouldn't have these precious moments. Neither would she.

I know what I would have been doing right about now if I had gone with OW – I would be fighting with OW all the time; I discovered we are so different anyway. She goes to the casino, I don’t. She goes to her brother’s house a lot and I can’t stand her brother. She hates to read, I love to read. She sees no value in opinions of others, only her own, whereas I value what others have to say (hey, I’m here on MB, right?). She has no ambition, I want to publish novels (I’ve written five, won 2 contest, but have sold none to date – and this A stripped over 2 years of my will to write away from me). OW drives like an 80 year old woman with poor vision and a bum leg, and I drive like I’m Jason Bourne (she hated my driving – I could just see how it would have worked out now). OW used whining and passive aggressive behavior on me, I am more direct and in your face. And lastly, OW tried to take me from my family, and I didn’t want to lose my family.

So, I have anxiety about a lot of things, and yes, what OW did to me, to my family - well, that's a big one. But any anxiety I feel is so much less than it was 3 months ago, and 3 months before that. Yeah, I had a couple of attacks in the last several weeks, but those are less frequent than before as well. It just takes courage, patience, love, understanding, commitment – for both my wife and I.

I’m not saying that staying with your H is the right choice; he is different than me, our situations are different, you are different than my wife. But I just didn’t want to give the wrong impression. I guess I don’t want to be a bad example, even though I probably am a lot lately (remember, I like approval from others…). I talked some today with my wife and asked her if she feels anything out of sorts about me or our situation, to let me know. I need to know. She assured me she would, but it was helpful that I at least talk to her, tell her, explain to her, so she doesn’t get the wrong idea and we head back down two separate paths.

I think we just missed the 10pm showing. Although I found out we are going tomorrow during the day; my daughter was so tired from the bus trip from camp she fell asleep. So, smartiepants, what can I say – after an A there are all kinds of challenges ahead while going down (or up, I should say) the road to recovery. But they are challenges, not burdens to carry and weigh us down. And it’s like frognomore said, some of us are only a year out, and it takes time. If I can have days like this one, or even this entire past week, after one year out, then my wife and I have no problems. We have challenges, but at least we will face them together, just like we’ve done the last 25 years.

Next Tuesday is our 25th Anniversary. I’m excited. I’m happy. My wife is too. If we had given up, we wouldn’t have that, and next Tuesday would have been a burden, not a blessing. Just a thought.

Jaded asked “I have seen the question asked ‘knowing what you now know, if you just meet your WH today, would you still marry him?’ I minimized my windows on my computer and went and got my wife, brought her into my office, sat her down on the chaise and asked her that same question. She said “you mean, knowing everything I know now, the last 25 years plus the A?” I said yeah. She got quiet and tears rolled down her eyes and she said “yeah, I think I would.” We hugged and cried a bit together. She then reminded me that our MC pretty much asked us that same question – he had turned to her on our first MC session and asked “Why are you here? Why do you want to save this marriage?” She said because she and I have one life together, and it is our life, we are intertwined to one another and that she has the husband she married back again. She told me she had already answered that question, and tonight the answer was still the same. She said we had some really good times in our marriage, and we did. She married me because I didn’t drink, and because I was tall and dark and – well, you know – and also alcohol had been so prevalent in both our families growing up and neither of us touch it.

This thread is about deciding to leave when you don’t have kids, and I know I can’t honestly answer what would have happened if we did not have kids. My wife said that we would have either worked out our intimacy issues way before it got to this point, or we may have just divorced outright years ago if we could not have worked it out. I honestly would like to think I would have still stayed in the M if we didn’t have kids, and I would like to think my wife would have still wanted me if I had an A and wanted to work things out with her. The thing is, my wife’s answer above would still hold true – if we had lived together for 25 years without kids, we would still have one shared life. It would not have negated the fact that OW, as it turns out, was actually the wrong woman for me, and I was probably the wrong man for her; and conversely, my wife turns out to be the right and only woman for me. Regardless of the kids we brought into this world. My wife and I even talked about this after D-Day, and at first I thought it was for just the kids, but I realized I chose my wife. And she did with me, as she told the counselor. And the thing is, our marriage vows said until death do us part and there was no mention of the children at all. Even Biblically, my wife has the right to leave me for having an A, but yet she chose not to (I think that’s awesome), even though I violated the vow of forsaking all others.

So, didn’t mean to take up so much of this thread, but you’ve seen my posts before and I have a proclivity to do what my boss calls ‘engaging in pleonasm’. I hope this has helped. It may not apply to your situation, but who knows.

Flameout

Don't ever worry about painting a bad picture of yourself to me. I think you are amazing--to have done the work you have in recovery to the kind of M you and your wife wanted. I appreaciate your honesty--I wish my WH had it in him to be the same way.

The reason why I wrote what I did was because you seem to me to have a core (of strength, morals, conscience) that did not take you over the brink of leaving your family to live with OW, and which gave you a foundation to recover your M. And yet you struggle. Now if someone like you struggles (and I am glad to hear things are getting better BTW in terms of the anxiety), I cannot imagine my WH being able to withstand it.

The other difference I see b/t you and my WH is you actively chose your wife, your M. So while you may still have thoughts about OW (and who wouldn't--for good or bad the affair partner has a deep emotional impact in the WS's life), your wife now comes FIRST in your life and in your heart. I am convinced that if WH came back, at best OW and I always would compete for his devotion or that I would be "sloppy seconds". Neither alternative is acceptable to me. My WH has a tendency to wallow in this failures, rather than learn and move on from them. One of things he told me before he moved out was one of things he did not like about me was the fact that my version of supporting him was telling him to make active choices to change the things he wanted to change in his life--e.g.if he said he wanted to have more money, I would say "well, try to find a job that pays more, or get a second job to supplement your income. I'll help you in anyway I can." I think OW says things like "Poor baby. You are so lovely and talented you should have more money. The fact that you don't just shows how unjust the world is." Maybe my response was wrong--I don't know. I do know I do not believe things just get handed to you, nor should they. (In truth, I forgot this where my M was concerned--I took it for granted. That helped get me and WH where we are today, though I put responsibility on him for choosing to have an A. But lesson learned for me.)

There is value in working for things, in earning them (whether it is education, money, power, love, friendship--anything that really worth something!) My WH, OTOH, thinks he deserves to have everything placed before him with minimal or no effort on his part. And when that does not happen, he cuts and runs.

So keep posting!! Whatever happens b/t me and WH, you and others on this board are part of my recovery efforts--for me! I am proud of you and happy for you and your wife.

SP2

SP2,
Thanks for the reply. I think the life you have led, or are leading now with your WH, is a tough one. I honestly can’t imagine how difficult it is. I caught something funny in what you said. You said “I think you are amazing.” The last time I heard that was from OW; when she had said it, I found it odd for her to find someone amazing who was, at the time, currently having an affair with her. I mean, what is so amazing about that? And after D-Day, I turned out to be not so amazing to her. That phrase just triggered that memory (see what I mean about triggers?), but I do appreciate the compliment.

I also like your view of things – “make active choices to change the things he wanted to change in his life. … There is value in working for things, in earning them (whether it is education, money, power, love, friendship--anything that really worth something!)” I love that philosophy. It is difficult to envision someone who would not welcome that kind of support. You said he “has a tendency to wallow in his failures.” Does he have depression? Having an A is like one of the biggest failures anyone can have; so is he wallowing in that as well? When you described how the OW would treat him, basically playing on his weaknesses and coddling him, I thought the same thing of my former OW (FOW?). Oh, insert comment here – my wife came up with a name for OW that would spell COW, but I can’t repeat it here – but you can guess. It seems like the other women always tend to say things that the WH wants to hear – it amazes me how attune they become to our needs and our egos. Once they have a handle on it, they tend to pour it on, I think in an effort to get what they want. I do have to admit I was wallowing in self pity myself before the A, as you can tell in my Plea to Wives post. Now I see where that got me. It’s one thing to pity yourself, or be a martyr, but it becomes worse when you have OW pouring it on as well. My OW tried to convince me that God had abandoned us both. My wife set her straight on that when she had told her off on the phone.

You said “maybe my response was wrong, I don’t know.” You do know – your response was the right one. Your response is just that, yours - not the OW’s response. I think it shows who you are, and between the two responses, yours is the better of the two. Yours empowers. I think her response to him is more self-serving than anything else.

You have a really good outlook on life. I think – no, I know – you will be fine no matter if WH remains your H or not. I can tell that by what you write, and also by your handle – smartiepants. I love that pseudonym BTW.

Hey flameout!

Sorry for the trigger. Lord knows I don't want to go into OW land (I've got enough troubles!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

As I take time to think about my WH, I believe he is (and has been) depressed for a long time. One night before he left to be with OW, he sat in tears and said he was 40 years old and he felt like his life was over. I sat in sheer amazement and just looked at him--we had a wonderful home, two great doggies, he was doing cooking classes at his job (which he really enjoyed), we had just returned from a great trip to Provence (it was my birthday present to him for his 40th). Before the A, we were discussing what we would like in our next home, and if I got another promotion would he consider going to culinary school full-time so he could pursue his dream of being a chef. His life was over?? I thought we were just getting started!

But if I suggested that he might be suffering from depression, he blew it off. He insisted he would never take ADs--he wanted to feel his emotions, his suffering. This is what I am talking about when I say he likes to wallow in this failures or suffering or what you will. When he walked out, he told me "I have to be with OW and have that relationship implode and then go and be alone." I was tempted to reply "Maybe I get the being alone part. But why would you invest time and energy in a relationship that you are convinced is going to implode?" But then I remembered trying to educate a fogged out WH, and kept my mouth shut. Damn that logical mind of mine!!!

Interestingly, since he left to be with OW and I began Plan B he has become very insistent about seeing me and the dogs. The attempts at contact (via email) are now becoming daily rather than weekly. I know things are heating up with OW (in a bad way) because she is starting to get nasty with her BH over their separation process. And I know my WH--he hates drama! Thankfully I am choosing to continue a dark Plan B and keep away from as much of the drama as possible. I pray he wakes up and comes out on the other side of this a better person--for his own sake.

If it weren't for our daughters I think I probably would have killed my WXH by now!

No really, if it weren't for our daughters I would have dumped the loser a long time ago. Instead as it turned out I tried to make the marriage work only to be dumped by him anyway AND have him hurt our daughters so badly that sometimes I feel nothing but searing hatred towards him now.

I can't believe I ever had anything to do with such a loser and severely regret having children with him. Not saying I don't love and appreciate my precious daughters... just would give anything in the world to magically erase all memory of him and all the harm he did from our lives forever!

Two of three daughters see him on rare occasion - he doesn't deserve it IMHO. He's just plain evil and I hope someday they have the courage and self-esteem to tell him the truth about how much he's hurt them. (For now they're afraid to show him their hurt because they KNOW he will just avoid contact with them - yup he's that selfish and cruel)

I love my daughters immensely and have tried hard to help them recover. It's infuriating and scary to see how much damage he's done to them. PLEASE do NOT have children with an adulterer! You're much better off making a fresh start with someone new. There are plenty of people who would not cheat. There's really no excuse for it. Marry a good person who won't hurt you or your future children this way! Let the loser cheaters have each other. Decent folks, people with integrity, should simply stop having anything to do with adulterers. If cheaters could only get involved with other cheaters then at least they would only be hurting other cheaters and far fewer children would have to go through the divorce of their parents.

OK, I'm lost, what does "POS" mean?

I'm guessing from the context I see it in it's not a positive thing.

Piece Of Sh*t = POS