I'll put my two cents in here, for what it's worth...

In my case, we had been married about 9 1/2 years on DDay. Though we had no kids, this was a long-term marriage. By the time the divorce was final, we had passed our 11th anniversary. I basically count 10 years of marriage for us, because we were completely separated and going through the divorce for well over a year at the end there.

I can tell you that at first, I did try for R, that's what I wanted. That feeling didn't last long, though. Once my emotions started settling down some, and I had a chance to think about a life without him, I was torn. I don't believe in divorce. The church I attend doesn't really believe in divorce except in specific circumstances. Adultery is one - but they also believe you should try to R if at all possible. So everything I believe was telling me that R should be the goal. And yet... once I started talking to some of the leaders in the church about what was going on, and we started going to counseling with one of the ministers at our church, they made sure I knew that it would NOT be a sin for me to divorce him. Told me that MANY times. This from a congregation that had recently been preaching about how too many of our members were getting divorced. Hmmmm......

And I thought about this. A lot. What it boiled down to was two things: 1. he had not been very nice to me for a very long time; frankly, there had been a whole lot of emotional abuse, and the A was just another form of that abuse. 2. although I had always said I didn't want kids, that had changed, and I really did. And he had made it clear that he did. So I had to decide if I would ever be comfortable with him being the father of my children. And the bottom line was.... I wouldn't. Between the emotional abuse over the years, combined with the fact that the A had made me lose trust in him, I didn't see ever seeing him as a good candidate for a father.

And really, the trust was the big thing. He had made me lose trust in our entire marriage. I was questioning everything.... I wondered how much else had gone on in the past that I didn't know about, how much else he had lied to me about. He had shown me that he could lie to me, not have remorse about it, get away with it, make me believe it, and hold up the fallacy for months, maybe years. Even if we did R to a certain extent, I would never be able to have the kind of trust I once had in him, and that's the kind of trust I wanted to have in someone I would choose to be a parent with.

If we were already parents together, then I couldn't do anything about that. But we weren't. And I could. So I did. To me, that just meant that staying together was no longer an option.

He wasn't someone I could trust to parent with. He wasn't someone I wanted to be a role model for my children. And I had no idea if he could ever become that sort of person. And plenty of evidence that he could be the kind of person I didn't want around any kids of mine. He had to go.

When kids are already in the mix, you can't just make that decision. He'll still be the father, no matter what (or mother, I know it goes both ways!) But when you're in the position of not having kids yet, well, why would I ever choose someone who could act like that to be a parent with?

osxgirl

yes, yes and amen! As I stated, I am still in the mode of wanting to save M if possible, but I can say that I can definitely see letting him go despite all pur years together because of the issue you raised: TRUST.

What devasted me most about the A was not the sex or even the emotional attachment he made with OW (now that understanding only happened after reading SAA, HNHN, Torn Asunder, After The Affair and this website), but that this person that I had spent half my life with, who was the person I trusted more than anyone else--I no longer recognized. He was this liar and user and manipulator and all he cared about was his happiness and desires--no one else. Trusting him again--in any sort of meaningful way--will be so hard. And like you, I want to trust the person I have as a life partner. I struggle with if I want to put the effort into trying to trust him again if he does leave his A and want to work on M, when I could try again with someone else with a "clean slate" so to speak.

SP - Ok, got it. I think if I were in your sitch, I would try to recover. Like I said, in my sitch, we have no kids, we've been married over 15 years and dated for 4 before that, and I tried the recovery route.

For me it had less to do with how long we'd been married or kids. It was simply that we could try recovery and if we failed we could get a divorce. I just didn't think it was feasible to try it the other way around. i.e. get divorced and then try to recover the M.

For me, trying and failing only costs us time. While I realize that time can be critical on occassion, in most cases it isn't. Most times you can afford to spend 6-12 months giving things a shot.

rprynne

Did your WH return to the M? Are you in recovery with him? Did he ever leave you to be with OW? How long did it take him to come back or try recovery with you?

Sorry for all the questions, but I try to get insight from people here who have similarities to my sitch in one way or another...

Hi bigk, this morning I’ve made some edits on this post to include more of my thoughts/opinions in my response to you. If you’re interested you can give me your thoughts again too. If you’re not interested, no prob!

NS: I know I can sometimes be a bit “long winded” in my posts but I haven’t yet master the technique to say the same things in less words! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Suzet - When I read some of the posts on this thread, people (including you) were essentially saying there are different kinds of Love Banks; romantic love banks etc. It was that incorrect assertion I was challenging.

Perhaps "Love Bank" is a bad name.

Our emotions keep track of how people treat us - LB deposits and withdrawals.

Now I think I agree with Rpryne who says there is a governor on LB deposits/withdrawals. Deposits/Withdrawals from certain people have a higher value.

But we all have ONE LB with accounts for everyone we know. If sufficient deposits are made, the threshold for romantic love is reached and we are "in love"

This is straight out of Dr Harley's books. But everyone seems to be trying to make it say what they want it to say.

Now neither you, nor I, would allow someone of the same sex to meet the needs of SF, Intimate Conversation etc - this is affair proofing our marriages.

I do not believe that people who "discover" same sex attraction are bi-sexual or even homosexual or that they have a "bent in that direction. The meeting of EN's is just that powerful for SOME people as repugnant as we find that concept.

I'll go further Suzet. As a Christian, I assume you hold to the view that homosexuality is a sin - how can that be if they just "ARE" homosexual? How could God say it is sin? That would not be just to hold someone accountable for something they have no control over. No. It is sin. They "discovered" ther were homosexual or bisexual when they allowed someone of the same sex to meet their needs.

Clearly some people other than our spouses can meet some of our EN's - just not the intimate ones - so conversation etc is OK. Even Recreational Companionship - remembering that one of Dr Harleys concepts is that we should have the BEST TIMES when we are with our spouse so that the most love units are deposited and we are in love.

Can we agree with all that so far?

Now - onto our other relationships, I have never said that what you have said about them is wrong despite yours and Owl's best efforts to portray my words as such.

In that context, if you want to tell me that I have made a DJ on you, I would probably tell you that I'm not too worried about making withdrawals from your love bank. If you were to tell me I was rude to you, I would probably think about what I had written and apologise if I thought I was out of line or wrong. A subtle but to me at least important difference.

I wasn't going to bother responding to this drivel but what the heck.

I don't see anyone here saying that Suzet's comments here are wrong Owl.

I do see you in condescending mode however and trying to educate me/others. OMIGOSH that's a disrespectful judgement - or at least it WOULD BE IF WE WERE MARRIED.

Hi bigk,

I don’t have must time to respond (must go to a meeting), but for now I just want to respond on the following:

In my view as a Christian, it’s not homosexual or bisexual orientation that’s a sin, but the acting on it. In my view a person don’t have control over sexual orientation, but only the acting on it e.g. practising homosexual activities.

I see.

I don't believe there is any orientation. That would be very unjust of God to condemn people to a lifetime of no ethical way of obtaining SF if it is an orientation don't you think?

IE Homosexuals are not born, they are made.

OK. There's been a whole lot of back & forth on this subject. I'll have to make this really short cuz gotta be somewhere.

Smartie, everyone's sitch is different. You have a whole lot of time invested in this R. I can understand. But, I have to say, having been through this, even after 25 years, kids, high school sweethearts the whole deal,I personally, don't think I could do what you are doing.

Holding on, while he has moved out & is carrying on w/his A, would just be to difficult for me.

I think, for me, it would take to much toll on me mentally, emotionally & physically. I think I would have to move on, & whatever happens will happen. I would concentrate on getting over him.

I say this not as a judgement, but it's what I think, for me, would be what I'd have to do.

If I had had a crystal ball after dday 1 to foresee that there would have been a dday 2, I would have gone dark and concentrated on letting go instead.

I say this because although we are in recovery now and things are great, this has changed me & are R forever. Some for the good & some for the bad.

There will always be only a certain amount of trust left in our R now. There will always be a feeling of a loss of innocense in our R now. There is always a small question in the back my head "is he being honest"? It's like a piece of metal that gets permanetly tarnished. You can shine it up or paint it, it's still strong, but underneath it's still tarnished.

I'm still early in recovery 1+ year since dday2, so maybe it completely goes away after a long period of time, but from many I have spoken to, I don't think it ever completely goes away.

What I'm saying is that keep in mind that if he does come back, recovery is pure he77. Sometimes I feel I would rather just start w/a clean slate. This experience has taken away a sense of innocense & trust,changed my view of R, my view of M, my veiw of human beings in general. I don't know how to explain it. It's just different. I feel that I am forever different.

Bigk, some homosexually orientated people are indeed born that way. In such cases the orientation is genetic. It’s reality although I know there are still people who don’t believe it.

BigK, I once had an in depth discussion with ForeverHers on this topic (and similar questions like the one you have raised above). I don’t want to go in depth about it here so if you’re interested, HERE is a link to that thread.

First, just to clarify, I'm a BH with a WW.

My WW left and moved in with the OM before I even knew there was A. Long story how that happened. Its posted somewhere here.

Its hard to answer the question of returning to the M. After D-Day, my WW did move out of the OM's house. But she never moved home. I did a pretty good plan A, but similar to what I posted above, my wife never attempted recovery. She did claim to try and reconcile, yet she never ended contact with OM. After she broke her committment to end contact for the fourth time, I threw in the towel.

I never did a plan B. In fact my WW and I still talk frequently. She claims to have ended contact after I caught her the last time, started IC, and is currently taking some time to decide what she wants to do.

Not to promising, huh?

Here's the big difference between my sitch and yours. You are doing a plan B. In retrospect, it was probably a mistake that I never did it.

I hope you are going very dark with your plan B.

BK, I am assuming that well thought reasoned "argument" from Suzet will certainly change your thinking. Her using an italic font for "born" and "genetic" are what convinced me...how about you? SOME people may not believe it BK...but it must be true...well, just because. And bi-sexuals...well, they are just born that way too. Heck...for all those people that have just experimented with a same sex relationship and never returned to one... well, they were born just flat out confused.

Hey, are some men born with the "walk" of do they develop that??? How about their fashion sense....or does that come from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy???


Next thing you know, it will be argued that a WS that willingly decides to commit a daily sin against their victims(supposedly at the request of a BH) are in fact born with the "no morality" gene.

I think you are a making a huge mistake by continuing to speak to your WW...she is getting the option of considering your M. Take away that option for her with a very dark plan B...very dark. She needs a wake up call and Plan B is the answer.

Hi Bigk, sorry, I forgot to reply to the rest of your post (today was a hectic day at work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />).

Anyway, with regards to the rest of your post - I agree with all of it except that I don’t believe it’s possible for a purely heterosexually orientated person to develop a romantic attraction (“erotic” love) towards a same sex person. I also don’t agree with your opinion that there don’t exist such thing as homosexual and bisexual orientation.

Of course not ALL people who are homosexual are born with that orientation, but that’s a totally different subject.

I guess that's what make people and the world so interesting and diverse - everyone have different opinions and views on many things!

rprynne

sorry for the gender mix up--I should have read the bio lines more carefully!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

jaded41

It's funny you should say what you did in your post. As I was walking my dogs this morning, I really began to question what I was fighting for in this M. Of course him living with OW is one thing, but I know my WH--and if he does come home recovery will be MISERABLE. But here's where the turning point came for me. I could work through the misery and H--l of recovery, if I knew he had that core in him that if he made the decision to come back he would give it his all. But if I assess my WH honestly (not through the filter of love and a long-term R), that is not his nature. It is his nature to avoid, to run, to give up when things get difficult--he engaged in this behavior before the A began in many areas of his life. One of his major weaknesses is to take a passive approach, not to deal with painful or difficult issues. I know enough from reading and working with my IC to know this tendency on his part will not get us through a successful recovery.

Two other things have me leaning toward using Plan B simply to let go and get better for me: one, I think he will always have deep feelings for OW, even after the A is over. And don't I want to compete with the ghost of OW for the rest of my life (I read flameout's thread about his continued thoughts and anxiety over his OW even after returing to his marriage and working hard at recovery. It sent fear through my soul and brought me to tears--and he did not even live with his OW). Two, I don't think I could ever gain a level of trust with WH again that I want to have with a husband. He revealed a side of himself that was frightening: deep deceit and manipulation and extreme selfishness. I don't want to wonder and look over my shoulder for the rest of my life asking "when is that other side of him going to come out again?". To me (and I am not judging anyone who has gone through the hard work of recovery--in fact, I am in awe!), it is too much... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So for today (and I think going foward), my Plan B is for me to heal and move on...

Smartiepants

You're probably right.


Yes, but I have the same option.


You're probably right. But I no longer have the energy to modify my behavior solely for the purpose of influencing my WW.

SP,

Here is the thing. Here people quote two years to start feeling "recovered". After the A and NC two years.

One of the MC's we went to had a differing opinion of that.

My FWW asked him point blank well how long will it take.

He said it used to be widely accepted a year and a half to two and a half years. Depending on differing factors.

He said now it is being thought that it is 5 years for the BS to "recover" I guess.

So there is five years.

There were times I wanted to call it quits. I was on the phone with the lawyer. I was making plans to leave. Getting my ducks in a row.

Then I went home and my boys jumped on me and said Daddy is home. Then I realized I never wanted to miss one day of that. If I got divorced I would.

So to me the only reason the pain was worth it is because of them.

It was funny I couldn't put my finger on it until I read this thead.

I am reconciled but not recovered.

So that is always a possibility.

Now on the flip side of this as well. I don't think my wife would have statyed either.

She wouldn't have left me for OM, that was a fling, but she wouldn't have wanted to endure the recovery either.

So that is probably why.

It isn't just the BS that hurts it is the WS and it is possible they know the damage and won't comitt to the heavy lifting because it affects the BS more then the WS anyway.

Oh Smartie,

I am soooo sorry that you find yourself in this predicament. Your WH sounds a lot like my H. My H is very passive/agressive and a complete conflict avoider. I'm afraid that that is a product of his up bringing. He would rather avoid, run, lie than to deal with anything that could possibly bring up emotions such as anger, shame, guilt, embarrasement. Because of this it makes recovery soooo much more difficult.

Luckily, and I use that term loosely, my H never moved out, never expresses deep love etc.... for OW. He had a relapse because of contact(job related), after 3 months into recovery, which of course lead to dday 2, 3 mos. after that.

I was so torn up that I literally feel that it has affected my mental, emotional, and physical health. I'm being tested for some physical stuff that I honestly feel the A contributed to. I lost 20 pounds and I was already thin.

We were seperated for almost 5 mos., but I never went into Plan B(I didn't know about MB). This is something that I to this day regret, because I always wonder what would have happened if I had. What I mean is I wish my H knew what it would be like not to have me. Maybe then he would appreciate me even more, maybe then he'd have a better understanding of how much pain he's put me through, maybe then he'd think twice before he'd do anything of this sort again. These are things that I think about.

Not only that, I always wonder how much of trying to save my M is about me being afraid, me being rejected. I had so much fear...financial fear, fear for my children, mostly fear of being alone. If I had went dark for those 5 months, concentrated soley on me and my children, I could decide to work out my M knowing I could do it on my own if needed. I would know that my H would have to fight to win back my heart, know that he felt some of the pain, some of the rejection. Instead of him feeling like he could come back at any time. This is just food for thought.

I have seen the question asked "knowing what you now know, if you just meet your WH today, would you still marry him?"