P.S.: To be honest, my H is doing & saying everything he possibly can (with his personal limitations) to try & recover our M, but truthfully,I am still looking of my shoulder, (and checking cell phone bills, and checking e-amil and anything else). Because I know that in the past he has said similar thing, looked me straight in the eye and lied through his teeth.

He/we is/are different know, out of the fog, most likely truely committed, by the doubt is still there. At this point, I still don't even trust my own instincts yet. Yes, I still always feel I am still in some sort of competition with the OW even if it is only memories or fantasy. It sucks!!!! Only time will tell. This is why I'm trying to be bluntly honest.

jaded41

The truthful answer to your question(and I have asked myself this question pre- and post-A) is definitely not. As I said earlier, my WH exhibited certain traits (conflict avoidance, escapism, lack of willingness to work through hard situations) even before we were married--as early as us dating in college.

Back then, even though I saw those traits, I blew them off because I was younger and in love. But as the years passed, those traits became more pronounced and had more of an impact on our lives. For example, he went to graduate school for 8 years in a PhD program and then just dropped out without finishing because it was "too difficult to write his dissertation". WTF--8 years and you just drop out?!? Meanwhile, he's gotten himself in a MOUNTAIN of student loan debt while in graduate school. And when he leaves the program he takes a low paying job in retail. Now working in retail is fine, but HE HATED IT. Every day he'd complain--this sucks, I wish I made more money, I hate having this student loan debt, blah, blah, blah. When I'd suggest things like finding another job he really liked or getting a second part-time job to get extra $ to pay down his loans, he igonored me and continued to complain about his rotten lot in life. When they offered him promotionsa at work, he would turn them down saying "I don't need the aggravation".Everything was everyone else's fault (his professors, his boss, the world in general) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> He was also extremely jealous and resentful of people who made more money and were more successful in their careers than him--including me! (It's funny, OW is less educated and makes even less $ than he does--think that was part of her appeal?)

Also, he would never want to discuss serious problems with me. If I tried, he would shut down or say I don't want to keep talking about this. Things got got ignored or pushed aside...

Finally, his self esteem was low and his general outlook on life was so negative (he called it "realistic"). I am the type to look on the bright side, find the good in things in any sitch and keep rolling even when things get tough. He was the perpetual downer--no matter what he had or did, life was never good enough. In one of our converations before he left, he asked me what I wanted from a partner-- and one of things I said is "I want someone who loves life and wants to enjoy all the good things it has to offer with me." I was tired of always having to be the strong one, the cheerleader. IMO, life was good, and I was happy. More than anything, I wanted him to be happy too. But he never was. Was it depression? Who knows, since he's stopped IC he may never know and work through his issues.

My response to the question says a lot, huh?

SP,

Knowing what you now know and the conclusion you came to, Do you think your WH is capable of doing the work necessary over the next 2 to 5 years so your M recovers?

We can use past behaviour to predict the future. What would your prediction be?

frognomore

My honest prediction is this: when his A with OW is done, he will try to "feel me out" to determine if I am still willing to work on the M. If the answer was yes, he would come back and do whatever I asked him, but play the victim/marytr (see nothing ever works out for me--I guess I'm resigned to spend my life with a woman who will never understand or forgive me, and who will never trust me and give me the uncondtional love and respect [admiration] I deserve again).

He'll go through the motions for awhile, but he will not do the things needed to get the love that he used to have for me back. Nor will he do the hard introspection and make the changes he needs to make in himself not to repeat this (or some other destructive behavior). And finally, he won't put up with the rollercoaster of emotions that come with recovery for very long. So my prediction is that he will wait it out until he thinks I'm comfortable again and at some point have another affair (only next time he'll be smarter about it--or so he thinks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />).

That's my opinion, anyway...

SP,

So is that ok to you?

SP -

Your answers sound very much like my train of thought when I was figuring out what to do. I knew that with EX and OW, one of two things would happen - either they would actually struggle and finally get married, once EX and I got divorced (and if OW ever got off her butt and actually got a divorce too!), or they wouldn't...well, obviously! Ha! But what I mean is that though I didn't really think they would actually make it, I figured there was an outside chance they would last long enough to get married... and if they did that, my EX would stay there because he wouldn't divorce her since that would be admitting that he had been wrong, and I had been right. (Of course, that wouldn't stop her from divorcing him, and I really didn't figure the two would last too long if they did get married.)

But really, I didn't figure they'd actually get married. And I was right. But I knew my EX well enough to know that he didn't want to be alone. He wanted someone to fall back on. He was having fun, playing knight-in-shining armor for her, but when things fell apart, he wanted to have me waiting in the background to take care of him... a safe harbor to come home to.

And when I sat back and thought about it, and about his personality and what I'd really learned about him over the years, if I let myself be honest about what he was really like, I realized that once I let him get away with it, once I let him run off, do whatever he wanted, and then come running home to the wife waiting at home, I would have just established the pattern he would expect for the rest of our lives. It wouldn't have ended with her. That OW would have just been the beginning. He would have just gotten sneakier and less forthcoming about what he was doing. This time, he felt guilty enough about it that he confessed, and then I was able to dig up all the information I needed, because he hadn't been really trying to hide it. After this, though, he'd do it again, only he'd start trying to hide it, and would feel less and less guilt each time....

The first time was a living he!!. I couldn't imagine living the rest of my life that way. And, as I said before, I wanted kids. But to me, it would have been tantamount to child abuse to knowingly bring children into that kind of a home.

So, for me, the question wasn't if we could R or not. I knew that once she dumped him, it probably wouldn't take him long to come back to me, and if I wanted him, I could have him back. If I wanted to R the marriage at that point, we could have. But at what price?

Again, it's a choice only you can make though. For me, the choice ended up being easy. I realized quickly that the man I loved had never really existed anyway. The only thing that was keeping me in the marriage at that point was the promise I had made to God. So, I gave R my best effort, my EX continued to cheat with OW, and I felt completely justified in choosing divorce then. I still hate that I'm divorced because of it being a broken vow to God, but I realize that it wasn't my fault the vow was broken, and I'm ok with it, it just hurts sometimes. Not what I wanted, but necessary... a necessary amputation - you'd never willingly choose to do it, but if it has to be done, you do it and move on.

frognomore

No, what I described above is absolutely not ok! As much as I hate the thought of divorcing, I hate more the thought of wasting years with a man who will never be the life partner I want or need. I cannot go through another betratyal with him whether is it is an affair or some other broken commitment.

That's why I am beginning to turn a corner here -- to see that it is best for me to let him go and move on to a better place. It is sad for me for sure, but I also feel a sense of peace and clarity, and less anger if that makes any sense...

oxsgirl

You hit the nail right on the head--at what price. If I REALLY thought my WH could be the man I thought he was - or was - (I don't know-not even sure it matters)I'd go through the he!! of recovery--no hesitation. But when my head and my heart tell me this M will really never be saved, I think it's time to stop fighting.

osxgirl

Just a curiosity--did you do Plan B? Did your Ex ever make an attempt to reconcile? If yes, how did you handle it?

Right now, I'm happy to stay in dark Plan B with no contact and the next time he sees me is at the D hearing (the earliest that can happen is 8/08 in my state). But I know (think?) that is not realistic. What was the process of separation and divorce for you--not legal issues but the process b/t you and your ExH?

Did your ex give you any difficulty? I don't think mine will give me a problem (that goes against his conflict avoidance MO- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!)

SP,

One of the things I used to think to myself is "would I be better off alone or with my spouse"

Not with someone else but alone.

Recovery is a lot of work, hard work.

It is hard to be a BS but the FWS has to at some point make you feel as though you have value.

If that probably won't happen then going your separte ways is not such a bad deal.

Count your blessings you don't have kids that make it even harder.

I was already in the process of divorce before I ever found these boards. Despite that, I think I probably did do, on my own, as close to a plan A/plan B as the circumstances would have allowed.

The first dday was 3 days before Thanksgiving. He said he wanted to R, and claimed to go NC. After I found out about this place and read up on things, I could see I did do a reasonably good plan A at that time. We ended up with essentially about 2 more ddays after that though, because he never REALLY went NC. Finally, towards the end of January, he walked out one night to go live with OW, just leaving a note.

My plan B was VERY abbreviated. He walked out on Wednesday night. He went completely NC on me - I couldn't get ahold of him. I tried. By Thursday at lunch, I had a plan in place for when he did call - I decided that I was going to tell him that when (not if, but when) he decided he wanted to come home, my answer was going to be that I was willing to try and R, but that he was not going to be allowed to move back home for at least a year. I would make sure he had somewhere else to live (and I did!), but he couldn't move home and he obviously couldn't continue to live with (or see!) OW if he wanted to R. And we would have to go to MC. And that there were no guarantees, all I could promise is that we could try.

Remember I said he left on Wednesday? He called on Friday, begging to come home. I gave him the plan. He begged, cried, threatened suicide... you name it. I didn't budge. He eventually agreed, and stayed with the friend (male) from church where I had arranged for him to go for the weekend. After that, he claimed he was living with his buddy from high school while we were going to counseling. In truth, he had gone right back to the OW, which told me everything I needed to know. So, yes, a plan B, but possibly the shortest plan B on record! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as the process beyond that... well, he was already out the door, I had already changed the locks.... when I confronted him about him having been still with her the whole time, he knew that was it. I had warned him that this was his last chance, that I couldn't take anymore lying. He basically just gave up, he didn't even try to defend himself then.

After that, we didn't even talk for a while... I went to a lawyer and did what I needed to protect myself financially, and I ended up being the one to push things forward, mainly because he was digging himself in a hole with debt and fines and was doing stuff that I just didn't want to take a chance of being associated with. So, I pushed getting a settlement agreement signed between us. Once that was signed... I let him handle getting the divorce done. In Maryland, the settlement agreement takes care of everything that is important. The actual divorce is basically just a formality.

As far as him giving me a difficulty.. no... and yes... he actually claimed to want the divorce immediately, so he could go marry the OW, despite the fact that SHE wasn't divorced, and didn't get divorced until long after he and I did! But he wanted ME to do it, me to do all the work. I told him that I could care less what he wanted. And so things just sat for a while, until I decided I needed the settlement agreement done and all our finances and legal stuff completely separated. Once we started doing that, he gave me problems... but only when I didn't do exactly what he wanted. But like yours, he's a conflict avoider, so he would complain a little on the phone, a LOT in e-mail, and mostly just refuse to pay what he owed, and refuse to get done what needed done.

In the end, I had to keep some of his belongings that were very important to him, and threaten to sell them, in order to get him to take care of things that he was legally obligated to do anyway. The way I got him to sign off on the settlement agreement was that he had done something stupid, needed to take out a loan against his government retirment savings plan to fix it so he didn't lose his job, and needed me to sign the loan paperwork before he could do that since we were still married. I refused to do it until he signed the settlement agreement, because otherwise, he could have just defaulted on the loan, had no retirement savings, and then come after my retirement savings instead. He got really ticked at me for a lot of this...I think mainly because the OW got ticked. She expected him to get a lot out of the divorce, and he didn't - I kept pretty much everything.

Even now, several years later, whenever he gets bored or lonely, he tries to contact me, and I finally had to just completely block his mail, because I couldn't handle continuing to hear from him. The lies from him still continued.. I don't think he even knows the difference between the truth and lies anymore.

Don't know if all that helps. Really, everyone around me said mine was kind of an extreme case... they'd seen plenty of other divorces, cases of infidelity before, but my EX was WAY out there. So I don't know that you can judge your situation by mine. But I do know that once they've shattered that level of trust, especially if they've done it repeatedly like my EX did, it's almost impossible to get that back.

When you add to it that we didn't have kids to bond over, and I look at the way he treated me, and kept saying that I wouldn't HAVE a friend who treated me that way....

To be honest, even though I told him I would try and R, and I did make an honest effort at it during the 2 1/2 months until I found out he was still living with OW, finding out he WAS still living to her actually ended up coming as a relief to me. I had said I would try to R, and I live up to my word, so I felt obligated to try as long as he was "trying" (though I really wasn't seeing much trying from him), but when I found out he had been lying about living with her, I was free.

oxsgirl

Your story is probably the most like mine of any I have read on this board so far. From Dday (only 1) until WH moving out was 2 months total. He never could maintain NC for more than a week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

He no longer has access to the house. I have seen a lawyer about getting a separation agreement done, but he is stalling on signing so I may have to use some leverage with him down the line. (Again like your ex, he is only interested in doing what he wants to do. Otherwise, I have to take care of it.) Right now getting the SA signed is not urgent, as I closed our joint savings account the day after he told me about the A and secured all my personal information, and we never had any joint credit cards or other accounts. The house is jointly owned by us, but since he abandoned the home and cannot afford it anyway, I doubt he will give me a problem about it in the end.

It's funny, people say the same thing to me that they said to you (even his own family)-- that he is WAY gone. And it is true--it is like an evil twin of WH's appreared one day and my H went missing. And OMG, he kept saying to me "I want us to be friends, we've been in each other's lives for so long." My reply: "I'd never want you as a friend now. I don't want friends who deliberately lie and cheat and hurt other people just to get what they want." I also learned from MB that the "let's be friends" line is just a way for WSs to keep their options open while they continue their As, so I knew not to fall for that bull.

Did your ex eventually file for D? At first I told my WH that I would never file for divorce, he would have to do it. But I know he won't because that would involve making an active choice that goes against his wishes (ie keeping me around while he plays house with OW), so I'll have to do it. And I'm fine with that now because it is important for me to be free of him.

What caused the breakup between he and OW?

Thank you for sharing. It helps to know I am not the only one who has gone through a situation as crazy as this.

Thanks for the link Suzet but I'll pass thanks.

As a professing Christian I'm amazed you would take that view for which there is no biblical support.

MEDC - LOL. You are evil and hilarious.

That is a view Dr Harley would not agree with.


I understand that is your OPINION. Do you understand, there is not a shred of scripture to support such an erroneous view?

Bigk, the Bible makes no reference to homosexual orientation, just as it doesn’t make any reference to people born with both female and male genitals or other physical male/female attributes simultaneously. No, the Bible only make reference to homosexual behavior e.g. practicing homosexual acts or a homosexual lifestyle.

See my previous post.

Suzet - that is a ridiculous comparison. How can you refer to a genetic deformity/mutation/mistake and compare it to homosexuality.

I certainly agree that it is the practicing of homosexuality that is the sin.

Again there is no evidence of such an orientation in the Bible. You are in serious scriptural error over this.

As if God would create someone who has a perversion he condemns.

I don't know bigk… If this is true, then I should have became romantically attracted to any one of my female friends years ago. One of my top EN's is conversation and other than my H, I have many female friends who fill this EN of mine effectively too. FOM also filled this need effectively, that's one of the reasons I became romantically attracted to him… But I have never become romantically attracted to any one of my close female friends. Why do you think is that? To ME the answer is obvious e.g. because I don't have any homosexual or bisexual orientation or tendencies. That’s also the reason IMO why I’ve never became romantically attracted to the therapist (the one I posted about in a previous post) in spite of a very strong emotional attraction and attachment I developed towards her during the course of the counselling.

Suzet - you just didn't breach the threshold. You readily admit there was a strong emotional attraction.

Why are you arguing so strongly for "orientation"??? Do you have someone close to you who is bisexual/homosexual?

You do remember Sodom and Gomorah presumably. God toasted them. Do you think they all had a homosexual orientation or was it a choice? Do you think God would create people that way?