Hi Mel, thanks for your response! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would like to clear out a few issues to make my point clearer to you:

I agree there is a huge difference between general politeness and the way I treat my spouse. Lovebusters with our spouses should indeed be avoided for that reason (to prevent withdrawal from the love bank and to maintain romantic love). But IMO that’s not the only reason I should avoid lovebusters with my spouse: I also do it simply because, as a fellow human and Christian, I have the obligation and desire to treat him with decency and respect. So, even if love busters would not deplete his love bank for me, it’s still expected from me to treat him with decency and respect.

The same with other fellow human beings like co-workers, friends, strangers, acquaintances etc. With them I certainly don’t avoid certain love busters like DJ’s and angry outburst to fill a love bank, but simply because as fellow human beings they need to be treated with decency and respect as well. That’s why I will even treat a person I meet once and will never see again with decency and respect.

I do have love banks not only for my H, but for my family, close friends (of the same sex) and some dear colleagues (of the same sex) who are friends as well… Although it’s not a romantic love banks, it’s still love banks. In fact, I think we all have “love banks” for every person we know. That’s why we like some people and don’t like others. Simply because with some the “love bank” is in the red and with others the “love banks” is positive. The moment we meet a stranger, the “love bank” is totally neutral – neither with any positive or negative units. The people I don’t like and have negative “love banks” for I will still treat with respect and courtesy simply because it’s the decent and right thing to do. With friends and family I will try to fill their love banks because I want to maintain/build the family bond and/or friendships. I will not do that with a opposite sex person because that can indeed trigger romantic love and lead to an A (as happened during my friendship with FOM).

Agree with this completely.

Agree with this too. I was not referring and/or thinking about the “cut their losses” comment when I made that post.

Suzet, I very much agree with what you said. It is a sort of lovebank, but not the SAME, because the principles of this program are designed to build romantic love. That being said, we can say things to our friends, acquaintences, stranger on an internet board, teller at the bank that we are not going to say to our spouse. I will likely be much more FORTHRIGHT with a person on this board than I would with my husband because it is not my goal to develop romantic love with my fellow board members.

Agree Mel, as long as being forthright with a person on this board (or others) is not accompanied by attacks and disrespectfulness (and other abusive behavior) towards that person. For me, the main reason and goal to avoid such behavior is because as a Christian and fellow human being, I have the obligation to try to the best of my ability to treat others with decency and respect. Life is full of challenges and sometimes it becomes difficult when someone starts to treat me disrespectfully because then my instinctive reaction is to react in kind, but even in that case, it’s not right or a justification for me to react in kind towards that person. (Sometimes I still fail! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) And surely the goal of this must not be to build romantic love with others other than the spouse, but to honor God’s instruction to “love they neighbor” e.g. treat others with decency and respect and also communicate hard truths (what people need to hear) without being disrespectfull.

NS: Mel, I do think you are one of the people here who can be very forthright without being disrespectful! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know sometimes I wonder this myself. What am I fighting for? We have no children and are still pretty young. We have only been married for 5 years. But we have been together for 12. So there are a few years invested. As time has gone on I relaize that we have both done things wrong, but bottom line is that I'm not sure I can take my husbands flirting and hanging out with other women anymore.

MEDC,

Almost everything, EVERYTHING that you have attributed to me, I have NOT said. Did you read anything I wrote?

From the tone of your post it appears to me that you find my position objectionable, even though it appears to me that you do not understand my position. You are under no obligation to like me or even give me the time of day but at the very least if you are going to quote my views you can at least do it accurately.



Is this what I said? I’m sorry but your reading comprehension needs work. I’ve never said anything even close to what you imply is my position.



Yes, the purpose of this site is to SAVE marriage. So save them. So why attack me for doing JUST THAT. You make the statement and then everything that follows is in direct assault on the very position that you say you subscribe too and that I am defending. And who here is advocating, “enabling bad behavior”. Not me. Of course, it would be interesting to understand what is your definition of “bad behavior”.

On top of it all, you accuse me of not reading as “genuine”, whatever that means. As this is your second time that you felt the need to throw a “slam” my way (the first time you called my recovery “fishy”). I must ask what is your true motivation concerning me, my posts and the philosophy that I subscribe too? MEDC, I NEVER offer anyone hope where there is none. The FACT is there is almost always hope in cases of infidelity. It is the great exception when there is “no hope”. Why is it that such a position is so offensive to some here, to you for instance?



What is my “little agenda”? Please tell me. Your cruelty knows no limits. You have now tagged me with being an advocate of “child abuse” so that I can protect my “little agenda”. Somewhere, someplace you must have been hurt real bad by someone. Do you think that I would advise a spouse to place themselves or their children in harms way? I have NO agenda, do you? I am obviously on your agenda.



That is the only thing that you wrote that makes any sense at all. Unfortunately, it is not germane to the discussion of advising divorce to couples solely based on their length of marriage and their number of exemptions, unless of course you subscribe to the above sentence that I reject.

Mr. G

Sorry, Mr. G... my comprehension is just fine....
perhaps YOU need to read what I wrote.

And I never said you were an advocating child abuse...just that you have steered a thread away from a discussion of potential child abuse on the part of the poster away from that and back to your agenda of helping her with her marriage when there were more important things on the table...child abuse.

Get your facts straight Mr. G.

"Give them the tools and they will make the best decision for themselves."

IMHO...the BEST tool is at times the ability to see the WS as the POS that they might be. Again, the BS is very wounded and not able to clearly see at times(again...as in the case with physical abuse). There are some BS that are suffering year after year of abuse...be it affairs or physical abuse...these marriages are cancers that should be removed. When that is the case...the best advice is to suggest divorce. The point of this thread... no kids, young marriage... is that there are very few reasons to tolerate the most offensive assault imaginable when their are no kids involved. I happen to agree with that...but if someone wants to stay...at the very least they are given a variety of opinions and options from which to pick. Yours, mine, Mels...etc...they can choose to drink the one that best fits their needs.
Even the good Dr. has clearly said that faced with adultery, he would leave. Throwing that out there for a wounded BS is a service...since they may feel trapped by their overwhelmed emotions.

Because it is not a fact...it is your opinion and it is wrong. It is not a GREAT EXCEPTION when there is no hope.

Where and how did I do that? I have no idea what you are referring to. Could you show me what you are talking about?



Yes, I have read where he said exactly that. That happens to be the very same claim that I once made (before I was actually faced with it). Regardless, I believe that the good Doctor has developed his relationship with his wife to preclude the possibility that he will EVER engage in an affair. As I hope others have done that frequent these pages.

I said:


To which you responded:


I did not state an “opinion”; I stated a FACT backed by the findings of MB and the Harleys. As you are a reader of this website you are undoubtedly familiar with the Doctor’s observation that MOST marriages that are touched by infidelity do not end in divorce. Beyond that, you will find that the Doctor has noted in his own practice that 100 percent of couples that follow MB principles, in fact, save their marriages. Yet just because a marriage fails or ends in divorce is STILL not a sure sign that there was NEVER any hope of reconciliation.

If that is not enough, then run down the list of names RIGHT HERE on these forums. You are member number 3285192. I wonder how many of those members came here without hope and left here with great promise and hope. I used the phrase “great exception” to describe situations that have virtually NO hope. But what I really mean is that 100 percent of couples that follow the MB principles will not only save their marriage, but also actually improve it. What a corny idea, eh? Forgive the DJ but you must think that I have my head in the clouds to believe such nonsense.

So let me say it again,

The FACT is there is almost always hope in cases of infidelity. It is the great exception when there is “no hope”.



While there is no doubt that “SOME” marriages should end, the lone fact that a couple is young and without children is NOT sufficient reason to end a marriage unless there are other extenuating circumstances or that is the exclusive desire of the partners. You see, it is my opinion that the “glass is half full”, it has always been “half full” and it will be “half full” tomorrow.

Mr. G

and there's the rub.... COUPLES that follow the MB priciples. In a good number of cases the WS has no intention of following through with anything but divorce. This, in and of itself, will knock out the theory that with great exceptions there is hope. See....it doesn't matter what some BS do....their WS will never come around. So, it is not a FACT....it MAY be a fact that the great number of couples (both people) using MB principles will recover...but that is not what you have stated.



and there are a great number...even still on these boards that wanted to recover and use the MB methods... and they are divorced.

I also think the good doctor is aware enough about infidelity to KNOW he would leave if it happened.

The conversation I referenced was with the woman that slapped her daughter in the face while the child was in the tub....you can find the reference in your history.(if it remains as she was advised to remove that info and others followed suit...perhaps you, I'm not sure).

You are exactly right, Mr. G.

And actually Dr. Harley himself said that if his wife cheated, he would have divorced her and be done, kids or no kids.

What is so interesting to me is that he made marriage building his life work. Now how does THAT fit into the different opinions here?

In my time here I have seen a lot of miracles. There have been marriages saved that I never thought in a million years would survive. There were others where the BS did an excellent job following the MB plan, and they ended up divorced. So it is a crap shoot in many cases.

However, barring abuse, I think it is always good to give it a try. My marriage didn't make it, but the stuff I learned here has changed my life, changed the way I relate to others, and made me very content.

Steering the conversation back to the original question:

Working it out with an adulterer is a big gamble. There's incentive when kids are involved and yes, doing it for the children is a valid argument. Trying, in that case, involves putting in a big effort to fix the problems, which should lead to a healthy, happy home for the kids.

Otherwise, there is NO incentive to work it out and you will always have nagging suspicion in back of your mind.

This is he11 for kids to go through. There's no sugar coating it.

I too would like to bring the conversation back to the original subject, and perhaps get some insight from others on my situation.

I am going through this right now.

At what point am I "done?"

WH and I just had our 3rd anniversary, no kids. Half of that time has been spent either apart due to military deployment or with him in the throes of the affair (they met while deployed.) Affair started in Oct 2006, I found out in Dec, and it's still going on. He moved out 6 months ago, but we still talk almost daily.

He's also now coming to the realization that he's got abandonment issues (worse than the normal ones) due to events of his childhood surrounding his adoption.

I care deeply for him, but I'm starting to wonder whether I'm more holding on to the idea of who I think he can be rather than who he really is.

Even if the affair were to end today, he still has an uphill battle with depression and abandonment.

I struggle with the feeling of giving up on him, but I also can't sit around waiting forever.

Well, Kamakura, your situation is difficult. I don't think you will ever regret trying to save the marriage. You will be able to look back and know that you didn't just throw in the towel.

On the other hand, if you desire to have children, you can't wait forever. I waited almost 4 years, but I already had my children.

Instead of working on his issues, your hubby had an affair.
I'm sure the affair will end because most do. But then he STILL has the issues to work on. If you want children, you would probably want to be reasonably sure that the marriage, and his problems are fixed. So that adds another several years.

Divorcing will take some time, and then meeting someone else will take more time. So I think it is very difficult to decide what to do - that is - IF you want children.

Believer, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Yes, I do want kids, which is part of what complicates this.

I would not stay married to him solely to have children. As you said, he would need to have a firm grip on his issues before I would dream of bringing kids into the equation.

Right now I'm starting to lean towards a legal separation just so that I can start to sort out my feelings and decide whether or not I want to keep waiting.

We actually have joked that maybe what we need is to get divorced and then just start over. Who knows, maybe that's what we'll do.

As S. Harley told me in IC, he dislikes the name MarriageBuilding in as much as it conjures up the image that they believe the marriage should be maintained no matter what. He prefers HappinessBuilding.

As I understood him, his goal was to help people be happy. What he discovered was that in a vast majority of people, the single thing that had the largest impact on their happiness was having a connected relationship with another person, i.e. a good marriage.

Thus, if he wanted to have the most impact on the most people's happiness, he should excel at providing guidance on how to have a good marriage. I imagine his expertise in infidelity comes from the fact that infidelity, is the most challenging obstacles to a good marriage that he faced in the couples he counseled.

Back on point, I have a childless M. I never viewed people saying to me "since you don't have kids, you should get out" as a statement as to the value of my M. I simply viewed it as an acknowledgement that recovery may be too hard or immpossible because my WS will lack significant motivation to change.

Many things can motivate a WS to change. Maybe they still love the BS, maybe that don't want to pay alimony, maybe they realize they were wrong. But in general experience the love of and desire to care for children is usually the biggest motivator. Absent that, many people will conclude, along with other factors, that your odds of recovery are very low and thus advise you to move on.

All that said, it doesn't really matter. Most people said to me when I first posted here, that your chances of recovering your M a very low. I read and to be honest I agreed with them. But I still wanted try. All I had to do was respond with a yes, I agree with what your saying about my odds, but I'd still like to try. I never seemed to have a shortage of advice.

Some might argue that those people did me a disservice. That they should have said, I will offer you no advice because I think what you are trying to achieve is pure fantasy. I don't want to see you get your hopes up. I've never really believed in that logic. That logic denies my own capability and attempts to place the responsibility for my actions on the shoulders of the people who have advised me. This is clearly not the case. I tend to prefer rather than some attempt to spare me from getting my hopes up, that they just say "I wouldn't get your hopes up becuase I don't think you have a chance. But if your going to try no matter what, here's what I would do." That way I have full information about and the responsibility for what I choose to do. I came to this board for information, not instruction.

Finally, I don't understand this obsession with alignment and conformity. The strength of places like this is its diversity. It takes different approaches, styles, and advice to convey the information.

Amen, rprynne, well said, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Smartiepants here

Jumping back in as the original poster on this question, my tack is this. I'm in Plan B now. In N.Carolina, you must wait for one year after being separated (defined as not living with each other), before you can file for divorce. Assuming WH hangs in there for the long haul with OW, neither he nor I can file for divorce until 6/08. If the A is still going or if WH hasn't done some work to figure out his issues, I will file for divorce June of next year (if he doen't beat me to it -- which would be unlikely for him.)

The way I see it, by that time I can say I gave it my best Plan B in an effort to save the M, but I don't want to wait for years and years for him. So if he doesn't come around, I can feel good about continuing a better life without him.

God Bless North Carolina. There are some crazy states where you can be divorced - start to finish - in 6 weeks.

Chances are good that you WH will be back. I forget the statistics on the length of affairs, but the vast majority end before a year.