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What I'm trying to say is that we have been dealing with other important issues that led us to where we are today...


DEALING how, Rin? I don't get the sense that he is DEALING with anything? By talking with you? What has HE DONE?

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This is the first time that he or I have had a higher power so strongly in our lives...


Rin, you have done ALL of this work. What has HE done? It sounds like you two are doing a lot of TALKING. That's NOTHING, Rin...NOTHING...Sorry...


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Right this minute if I bring up the affair to my H and express how it makes me feel, I see GUILT and SORROW on his face, like I have stabbed him...

That's what I see...the look on his face is priceless and he drops his head and can't look at me...I have seen this about five times in the past few weeks...

James I have been praying...I open up my book, just flipped it open and it was Isaiah...talking about coming out of denial...I'd have to read it again to explain...I mark it but it was so befitting of the sitch...I didn't even pay attention to where it was because it's my recovery bible...I'll have to look again...

I am not on an emotional rollercoaster...I feel good...it just upsets me that I am not being heard...like I was told recently but someone I extremely respect..."I didn't take sides because I saw his stuff but most of that stuff was on your side!"

I will not accept anything less than the feast...there's no way that I can return to the person I was...I know better today...I'm stronger today! I have my family and I have friends in my life...

I can't give a complete picture in words what is happening...there's no possible way I can do that...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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I hear you.

What is he DOING?


Try sharing.

You just paint a picture of being FORGIVING of him when it doesn't seem warranted.

Maybe I'm missing something.


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You paint a picture of laughing, joking, sharing some beers with a man who hurt you so immensely.

I recall my H being SO BROKEN early on.

I was describing how he is NOW..after 5 years...


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I have not forgiven, far from it...and I certainly have not forgotten either...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I have not forgiven, far from it...and I certainly have not forgotten either...


Remember, ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS...

Just going by the ACTIONS that you describe here to us, that is not evident.

He does not YET DESERVE, IMO, an OUNCE of your time...


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I have not forgiven, far from it...and I certainly have not forgotten either...


then why are you drinking and eating with him? Why are you engaging him in any way?


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He does not YET DESERVE, IMO, an OUNCE of your time...


Ditto

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Rin,

It isn't about you. This is about him.

Erase your history together for a second.

Then without emotion or judgment look at the type of man he IS NOW and then ask if you would want to be with that type of man?

For instance, I know he has ... another woman in the past and he hasn't gone to counceling.

I know he has been unfaithful in the past and he...

It is easy to idealize and only see the good just like it is so easy to be angry and only see the bad.

Again you need to "you take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have....."

Little facts of life reference.

Anyway I see you want a lot but what do you NEED and will he give it to you?


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Anyway I see you want a lot but what do you NEED and will he give it to you?

I don't know yet...I don't feel that i've had enough time to see...heck, if this was someone else I was talking to I don't think that it would be enough time either...

I need compromise...he's doing that in regards to the kids...

I need someone to respect my wishs, not push me into someone that I don't want to do...So far so good...he has been very respectful in that area...when I have said that I don't want to talk about something, he has been fine with that...

For instance, about prayer...I said that I would perfer not to say what I pray about and he asked me to come see...we walked to the truck and he showed me his...

I see good, and I see bad...I don't like his finacial situation...I don't like where he lives...

I like that he is trying to move up in the company...I like who he is socializing with now that he has moved up...I like the way he cares for the boys, cooking, washing their clothes, displicine, and his allotment of time without other people involved...

I like that he's trying to better himself...I like that he's no longer in the bars...

I wish that he was more open...verbally...I like that he admits when he's wrong...says I'm sorry...

So, right now, I see alot of good...but I would see that with anyone...there needs to be time to see the bad...make choices...

Worst case: We're good co-parents...

Best case: We end back up together in a few years...

I needed time to grow...just like anyone...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I see a man who's trying to get his life together...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I was coming from my perspective, Rin...

I wasn't willing to be JUST FRIENDS with my H...

Where I was coming from is, if you want to RECONCILE, I would recommend PLAN B and the expectation that he meet your conditions...

Otherwise, I suspect that you will remain JUST FRIENDS..or worse..

He will want to DATE you...and have you as ONE of HIS WOMEN...

You are HIS WIFE...none other...A DIAMOND..not just one of the bunch...

I would SETTLE for NO LESS...

I made that clear to my H from the beginning...

I would have NOTHING ELSE to do with him if HE CHOSE to DIVORCE me...


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I need compromise...he's doing that in regards to the kids...

Maybe POJA instead?

How do the things you like now align with your EN'S?

Sometimes we see change because we want to see it sometimes we see it because it is real.

I like the advice you are getting and the advice you are giving yourself.

Take it very, very slow and be very, very cautious.

Decide the work that needs to be done and do not waiver.

If you say MC you stick with MC.. If you say IC he sticks with IC.

Like Mimi says you are a diamond.... If he wants you back he needs to realize that.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Mimi, I wanted you on my thread...you popped in exactly when I was wishing for you...

I'm not sure that i want to Recon at this date...I have thought about it but I need to see more...

I refuse to give myself to him (SF)...absolutely refuse...I don't know where he's been...

Not only b/c I want better for myself in that area, but I don't what to confuse the kids...

basically, I don't know what he's doing when he's not around me...I have asked several people to keep an eye on him when they see him out in public...I was asked if I wanted him back and I said "I didn't say all of that, I just want to know if he's lieing to me!"

I'm following through with this D to protect me and the kids...

That's what I have right now...I'm comfortable with where I am RIGHT NOW...

I'm comfortable with him around the kids...playing games with them...uno, yahzee, and him joining in...

This coming Thurs. I was suppose to have a board meeting, STBX offered to watch the kids for me while I was there...it was canceled...in the past, he would have gone to bike night and would not have considered that at all...

He has really stepped up and put the kids before himself...didn't go to his Company Christmas party b/c he had them...admitted that he didn't give us the time that we needed when him and I were together...that he was trying to cram all of the stuff that he wanted to do in the time that he was off...

All he knew was how to provide...that's all his dad showed him when he was growing up...his dad was never around either working or running around on him mom...

That was the best thing I could say about STBX at one time...he was a great provider...

Thanks Frog...STBX is doing well with conversation...I won't let him meet me on affection outside of a hug...and he hugs me really tight and it feels good...but that's the only thing I can do right now...I can't allow myself...

I am getting undivided attention when he's around and he's not contacting me all the time when I'm not around...I like that too...

O&H is one of my top ones and I'm cautious with that one...like I said I have people checking him out...I still have trust issues...believing what he is saying...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I know it might seem like a small thing to you Rin...but IF your STBX was sincere, i would think one of the very first things he would do...WITHOUT YOUR HAVING TO BRING IT UP EVEN ONCE..would be to return the things he stole from you. That to me speaks to his heart right now.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I know you say you are being careful...and I believe you to a point...but I also see a woman that is so capable of letting her gurad down and being hurt by a man that really has no business having any access to her until he makes everything right.

So, wouldn't you suppose that if you were a victim of someone literally stealing from you..that the first thing that should happen to show their new nature would be a return of ...at a minimum...everything that was stolen from you? If he sold the stuff...then he should replace it with all new stuff. And even though you are not saying it, I get the impression that he is getting a pass on many things, when he has earned none.

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If you don't want to reconcile with him, do you want to HELP him for the SAKE of your sons?

If you meet ANY of his NEEDS, you reduce HIS SUFFERING.

In order to change, he has TO SUFFER..he has to reach HIS BOTTOM.

I think you are relieving HIS SUFFERING..and IMPEDIING his PROGRESS..

IMO, HE CAN BEST GET HIS LIFE TOGETHER IF HE HAS NO CONTACT WITH YOU.

With contact with you, HIS CHANGE PROCESS STOPS...

You see what I mean?

Is this meeting YOUR NEEDS?

I don't see this as really caring about him.

I don't see your contacts, with him, sharing a beer, as being in the best interests of YOUR CHILDREN.

It is in the best interests of them for him to REALLY get himself together...and even better yet, as Steve Harley said to the other person, for them to be reared by both of their parents...

Your contacts with HIM are not gonna help you reach this goal...


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Medc and mimi have very good points.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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And moving into a bit of SOULSPEAK...

Rin, are you ACOA?

I am.

It really hit me when I listened to a tape one day and the author was talking about her experience as a COA. She invited her friend over to look at TV and when they got there, her Dad was drunk on the floor and she just walked over him and turned on the TV. SHE THOUGHT THIS WAS NORMAL. She said could never forget the look of HORROR on her friend's face.

If you are like I WAS, I used to think of ABNORMAL stuff as being NORMAL...like how you are downplaying the BAD STUFF that your WH did..like..LA DE DAH..he stole my stuff/he burned my books...NONE of that is NORMAL or ACCEPTABLE..even if he did cause he was a WAYWARD..my H did lots of AWFUL of things when he was a WAYWARD and NONE of it was OK..that was NO EXCUSE...and because he did such HORRIBLE THINGS to me..he had to make AMENDS and is still making AMENDS...and he recognizes the NECESSITY of that...in order for us to continue to RECOVER...

Does any of this fit?


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MeDC- I hear you on that one...good point...MOF, that just made me kinda mad all over again...

Mimi- I've thought about that too...TBH, I really wanted to give him a taste of the good life and I mentioned to someone that I had plans to go dark after tonight...I have no reason to contact him after tonight...I mentioned that earlier...

ACOA- my stepdad, my abuser...yes, I can relate to that...

Well, I finished cleaning house, cooking supper and the game is going to start...

SOOOO, GEAUX TIGERSSSS!!!! The real ones!!!

LSU!!!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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Rin - there was a convo on gun conrol on the presidential discussion thread, but I felt my response belongs here...

You removed his guns from the house for a reason.

There are TWO major characteristics of men and women who are most susceptible to hurting someone else - a lack of empathy, and lack of impulse control.

Because of my own childhood and PTSD with regard to domestic violence, I have never allowed a gun in my home. That's my form of gun control. The incident yesterday was where both elements combined with a trigger and an opportunity created an irreversible situation that is still rippling through many lives tonight.

Rin - I wish I could pour out my heart to you on this issue. I thought you got it 10 months ago. Perhaps, living back in that space where your habit of minimizing and excusing has you thinking it wasn't so bad. But dear, even before he burned the books, there were signals that said very clearly you were in danger even if you didn't feel like you were.

I'm glad to see that you've realized that you can't teach him a conscience. He knows how to win you over - he's done it before. But this time, Mimi is right - he has to hit his bottom without you trying to ease his pain. He has to feel it - all of it.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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PLease have some faith in me...

Thank you for caring SOOOO much KA...


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
Thomas Carlyle
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