Hi Capitan -

Welcome to MB, though I'm sorry you have the need to be here. RIF and MM have you given you some great advice - you would do well to heed it.

I'm ex-navy myself - left in 98 as a LT. What community are you in? If you're up in WA (I was until recently in OR myself) you could be surface, sub or air - or anything in between <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I'm just curious, you don't have to answer that).

I want to highlight what RIF said to you. It's kind of ironic, because I was talking a while back with an ex-Army officer about how it seems that the military officers on her seem to have a harder time dealing with this than the enlisted folk. His assessment (which I agree with) matches a lot of what RIF said. The communication style used in the military doesn't translate well into a marital relationship, and as officers we're trained to look out for, take care of and take responsibility for our people.

That works well (most of the time) in the military, but it doesn't translate well into marriage. Beware the temptation to "rescue" your wife....it's an outgrowth of that whole "Know my people and take responsibility for their actions" line of thinking.

Two years is a long time to be in Plan A (I say this as I've been in and out of Plan A for the last two years myself). Do keep in mind that the longer you stay in Plan A without a response from your wife, the more love you will lose for her.

I don't have any good advice for you, and for that I apologize. I'm so deep right now in my crap that I've clearly lost the bubble and have no idea where it went or where it is.

Having said that, we're all here to support you. Keep posting - you'll get a lot of support and a lot of good advice here.

Capt,

I do not dare to give you advice, you have the best tending to your situation.

Just a note to say to have a shipmate standing by, and pulling for you.

-JKT

Thanks Healingbird and JKT.

Good words on "rescuing". Can't deny I've had those thoughts, but my true motivation has more to do w/ my love for her and our family and my responsibility to be the one strong person in the situation to make a difference. If I "gave up", it can't be until I know that all options have been truly exhausted. However, I will not let me or my children "go down w/ the ship".

This sucks.

Hey Capitan,



I’m afraid that if you continue to let your W stay in contact with the OM and he’s basically “living” at your house while you’re at sea or away, then you’re going to end up divorced anyway… As far as “out of a job”… I don’t think you’ll have ANY trouble finding a job. It was a huge decision for me to get off active duty, you know, giving up a paycheck on the 1st and 15th of each month… great benefits… respect… etc. But I can tell you that you WILL be OK when you leave the military…



I understand the PCS rules… have you talked with your C of C about your situation? One thing that I didn’t do, and looking back, wish that I had done, was to inform my C of C about my family “issues”. I was too embarrassed and was worried that it would “affect” my career… so I kept everything to myself. In the end, it DID affect my career, and I truly believe that if I’d gone to my C of C first, that things might have turned out a bit differently. My point is, that you are not going to be able to work on your M as long as the OM is in the picture… If there’s any way to PCS your W and kids to where you are, I would strongly suggest you see if you can do that…



I never told my oldest daughter (she was one to three) when Mrs. RIF was involved in all of her A’s. When we started MC in 2000-2001, Mrs. RIF had had NC for over 10 years, so I didn’t feel any need to inform our girls (we had three by this time)… As for your situation, I will defer to Mortarman’s advice… I would venture a guess that your kids ALREADY know that something is going on with their mom and the OM… and that if you explain things to them in a loving way (don’t be vengeful and try to turn them against their mom) that they could be good allies with you in this battle… but again, Mortarman has more experience in this area than I do.

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF...thanks again.

She will NOT bring him into our house w/ the kids - she doesn't respect the OM that much and no doubt fears the kids' judgment of him. Instead, she has kids stay w/ friends and goes "shopping" in the big city.

Too early to tell CoC. I'm fairly senior - post command, and the job I'm in is a high-priority, must-fill billet. Getting "out of it" would be tough...and might result instead in my being sent IA for a year to fulfill obliserve...defeating the whole purpose.

OBTW, affair began while I was an XO and I found out a month after taking command...talk about living a lie! She was great, however, and continued to be the best CO's wife...at least outwardly. I've got to give her that, she's good at keeping up appearances.

Standing by for any advice anyone may have on how/if to expose w/ teenagers. I will NOT trash her...this whole thing is about love, not revenge.

Cap,

Hope the seas are calm for you tonight!

Exposure is not like intervention. You tell your truth and info on what is going on to any and all that you can. Give the facts of what WW is up to and how YOU love your WW and want to restore your marriage. Ask for their support.

Do NOT tell WW anything prior to exposure. It is important to do it swiftly to all the people you plan to expose to all at once. This keeps WW from having the chance to put her own 'spin' on things first.

I have younger children, and it is ultimatly your call What to say to them. However, remember kids are smart and perceptive. At 6 and 12, my kids knew what was up. I told them straight forward and age appropriate that Daddy has a relationship w/ X and it is not right. Daddy's do not have girlfriends when they are married. Period.

Chances are your kids will welcome the chance to finally talk about what they already KNOW is going on. Very likely, they have not said anything as they want to protect you and they are afraid of what may happen if/when YOU find out. Let them know it is OK to talk to you about ALL of it and especially their feelings.

You are doing great. Asking questions and carefully planning your way.

Hang in there.

Hey Capitan,



The sad unspoken part of this statement is that your W doesn’t respect HERSELF and the Marriage enough to stay away from this OM… I think it’s critical that you inform your kids of mom’s “inappropriate” relationship with this OM. Like BM said above, they already KNOW that something isn’t right. Expose to the friends that she drops the kids off with and ask them for their help. They can help by NOT watching the kids when she want’s to go visit the OM. And if the kids know about the relationship with the OM, they are old enough to put pressure on her to stop. Again, let your kids know that you LOVE their mom and that you are fighting to save the marriage and that you need their prayers and their help… I’m sure that they will willingly join you in this battle.



I never exposed to my C of C during Mrs. RIF’s three years of A’s but I did expose to her parents… but they were in the states so it didn’t do very much good. Everything that I’ve read here about exposure is to do it quickly, notify everyone that you think has an influence/impact on the WS, and do NOT inform the WS prior to exposure… Like BM said, you don’t want to give your W a chance to lay a smoke screen and spread her disinformation.



Understand about the additional commitment if you jump ship now… so that COA is out. Well, is there any way that you can move the family up to where you are? Or are they already there, but you’re just out a sea for 6 months at a time? I’m sorry, but I’m not very familiar with how the Navy works. (I was in the Marine Corps right out of HS, but the only Navy people that we came in contact with were our Docs)… If they’re at another location, is there any way to PCS them to your home port so you could at least go home when you’re not at sea?



Mrs. RIF basically didn’t even try to be an officer’s wife… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> she was sleeping around with my enlisted soldiers… talk about a major blow to my ego and pride! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thankfully, her actions then, do NOT define who she is today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. RIF is a godly wife and mother and I’m so very lucky to be married to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know that you’re discouraged and that this stuff is killing you, but there is hope. The first step in all of this is to get her into NC with the OM.

You can make it through this. Hang in there and let us know if there's anything we can help you with. Again, if you have any specific questions that you'd rather not post, you can always e-mail me at rif902000@yahoo.com

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks "Mom",

So just exactly how does exposure work then? What effect does it have if she doesn't know people know. What if I tell everyone and they choose to look the other way, not deal with it, or shrug their shoulders and say - "I'm really sorry, that's too bad"... In my exposure, what support am I asking for besides their support for me?

Your guidance on telling kids is good, thanks. Do I tell them w/ her present? That could put them in a difficult position if she's determined for no one to know...

Hey Capitan - Not to steal BM's thunder, but the intent is to expose PRIOR to telling your W. Once you've exposed, it's OK to tell your W that you've enlisted the help of (list everyone that you've exposed to) to help SAVE this marriage.

She of course will then know that she can't rely on these people to help her in her affair.

The main goal is to expose the affair before you inform your W.

Hope this helps...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Capitan:

Point of reference: I had a 4.5 year LTA with another woman.

It was comfortable. Nobody KNEW but us. Wife suspected about 1 year before DDay, but was unwilling to confront about it.

And I wasn't talking about it.

You KNOW about your WW's activities. But she continues to be comfortable.

It time to start breaking that comfort zone.

My LTA ended on Dday. Because of your long absences, and your WW beliefs, she can stay low-level for many months when you are around.

Time to break the comfort zone.

As the other long term military have described, they have lost out big-time financially because of thier Wayward spouses activities, and the need to leave the service sooner than retirement age, etc. Sometimes that is the ramifications of thier spouses choices, and what needed to be done to restore thier relationship.

You state that your WW is going to be living 3 hours away from you. Time to rent that house and move her closer to you. If she is in on-base housing, and you are not permitted on base housing at your new posting, then you do what you have to do. Take the kids with you.

That may cost you alot of money. So be it. Your WW is comfortable. Heck, the OM is comfortable in your house while you are gone.

You have to break that comfort zone.

Mortarman did it, RIF did, and now you have to. Even WhoMe has some parallels. The Wayward can be very comfortable for a long time, because that's the easy route.

I was there.

As harsh as some of the recommended actions may be, it may be the only way to get your WW to "get it"

And that "get" is that you are no longer going to support her and her OM.
She loses her nice home.
She loses daily access to her kids.
She is no longer the "Commanders Wife" but some woman who wants to stay with a loser.

And YOU in turn do the following:

Address her most important emotional needs. And if that is time with you, you give it to her. (by reducing the distance between you)
Conversation
Affection

Really, it's the only way.

Understand that the financial hit that you might endure, will be smaller than expected in the long run, and if your WW decides to go anyway? She gets such a big chunk, it doesn't matter. It IS cheaper to fight this than it is not too.

Just my .02

LG

BTW: I spent 4 years enlisted in the AF 1982-86, so I'm familar with the military world as well.

LG has provided you with the correct Rx. He has provided you with an avenue of choices but they all lead to the same conclusion.

"You cannot recover a marriage if you are not together."

Sell the house, move your wife so that you are able to work on the marriage.

How bad do you really want this to work?

Mr. G

Capitan
I was a WW, I am the wife of a professional soldier still.
maybe I could help with a bit of an insight into the WW world
My DH was the only serious BF I had. I wanted to be his wife from the time I was about 16 and soon as I turned 18 I was.
I gave little thought into the world I was entering, the demands it would place on myself and our M, and our relationship.
Right off we were posted .. yes WE ... 1000's of km's from all I knew, family, friends, everyone. It was HARD.
Shops were hours away, all was the base, the darn base.
Yes I did make friends slowly, not many, but a few. Then before I knew it i was having my first baby and my H was somewhere in the world doing whatever he was doing. That was lonely but I got through it. Did it cause resent ment? I guess it did in truth, small probably by itself not much to mention, Than by 20 with 2 small kids, living the same way I lived virtually as a single mum for most of each year for a few years. I can't say we were unhappy we weren't and I loved being a mum.
We got moved again, good years, then he transferred to the SAS and we moved back to our home city. I had my family, but hardly saw my DH. But it still wasn't too bad, I mean what time we had was great. I can't say it was totally fun all the time but it was ok. He was a soldier. we had 3 kids, then our little boy died & my world crumbled. My H wasn't there, I felt abandoned. lost. I think had the war not come the wounds would have been healed a lot quicker but who knows. He went to the war, I went out and had an affair. The A ended, my H got sent home to die. Thank God he didn't. I can't say my life got together by itself. My parents, my family and my H went through ****** to bring me back from that crap.
I cannot say my M just suddenly was fixed, it never is 'fixed' its something new. Not better, not worse, just different.
My DH is still a soldier, he's deployed now in fact in Afghanistan and we have a 2 yr old he's hardly had much time with. My older sons a soldier, my daughters husband to be gets back from Afghanistan next week. I didn't plan any of this, or really want it, I had my own hopes and dreams for myself and my kids, but I had felt that I gave those up back in my WW days. Of course they weren't 'mine' to give or take way were they? And you know, I am HAPPY. But back then, a few years ago I wasn't. I wanted out, I wanted MY dreams, my H had his, I wanted MINE.
I really didn't think of my H, or my kids, or anyone but ME. Entitlement is the key word here.

I have found my faith again, I found my husband, and just as important, he found ME again. If I asked him he would give it all up. He would be unhappy and I think lost a bit , but he would do it. I won't ever ask him, even if it means his life. It works for us. He is my hero you know, in ways perhaps no one can understand. A man for all seasons.
My regret is such a shallow word for what I feel.

There are no justifications or excuses for having an affair. Never accept there is. I have none, I shall never accept one.
You see the thinking that got me in trouble, it was all me me me. Mr in charge had had his fun I thought and I wanted 'my' life ..... when some serious event hit us I moved away from him not to him.
crazy now, but then... I wanted him to hurt as much as I did. The holes in our M were not caused by sledgehammers, but pinpricks. Over time, through years.

Please listen to RIF and some of the other long time people here who have been through your side of things. Many times you will have doubts about what MB recommends, you may think that if you expose for instance then your M is over etc. Its just a natural fear and though your WW may get angry & threaten all sorts, M can and do survive anger, Affairs on the other hand tend to wreck them.
In general you do need to make the affairees uncomfortable, make them WORK to contact each other if you can. Move your family 3 hours closer to you, if your wife comes well and good, but move the 'family' asap. The brutal reality is that Dv cost lots of money, moving your family & even contacting the Harley's, which I recommend you do as well, costs money, but far less. Do whatever it takes to disturb the affair as RIF and others have advised. IT WILL TAKE TIME. You may need to pull back on the deployment based on family issues if you can. Maybe even transfer right out of the state. Listen to the MB experts and please please consider the Harleys

Thanks AW!

God knows I truly believe that those on the home front have it harder than we do, in so many ways. All of a soldier's/sailor's/marine's basic needs are taken care of and the mission is often clear. At home the spouse has so many duties, responsibilities that have to do w/ being a single parent. My WW made it look so easy - almost to the point that I believed she preferred to be "in charge", and I abdicated ALL home decisions to her. Ironically, she truly believed that she was fighting me on so many decisions...hmmmmmm.



I think my WW also loves what I do and respects me so much for it. Her "enjoyment" of my being a commander's wife was limited...to her it was a tremendous burden because of the weight of the lie she was living.

Moving family to my next location where I will only be present 6-8 months out of the next 24 seems brutal to the kids. I am more willing to make the drive each and every day to sleep in my own bed and kiss them goodnight.

Again, dropping my letter now will almost certainly mean at least a year IA - defeating the purpose of doing a good plan A now. However, I will investigate the realities of that possible plan of action.

Am beginning to rally the troops around me and our marriage. What I'm telling the estranged friends, the ones she no longer returns calls to, is that they too can stop treading lightly and continue to call, this time, letting her know that they know and that they care for her AND our marriage.

Thanks to all your support and suggestions I've gotten past any concerns about this looking bad for ME. I'm the one doing the good work, I'm the one thinking for the family.

WW has complained that she doesn't want to be trapped in a "loveless" marriage... I have never been more full of love - a love that has changed, grown, and taken on such a new, fuller meaning. I have grown so much - too bad I took to this ripe old age to "get it".

Why don't we teach this stuff in school, on TV, in the movies? Instead we thrive on drama, intrigue, romance and illicit affairs rather than wholesome, healthy relationships.

...good Bob Dylan quote, by the way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Capitan - How are you doing today?

I never exposed because I was too proud... and I feared that everyone would think that something was wrong with me... that I was a bad husband, that I was a wife beater, that I couldn't 'control' my W, that I couldn't satisfy her in bed...and on and on and on...

Glad to see that you've moved past this issue. You ARE fighting for your family and you ARE doing the work. The people that you expose the A to will know this as well.

Your W's A is NOT a reflection on you as a husband or a father... it is a reflection of HER decisions.

Expose as soon as you can and see if you can move your family to your home port... even if it means up-rooting the kids, at least you will put three hours between your W and the OM.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Doing OK today, thanks.

Biggest reason is that it's now the beginning of the week, the kids are both home, and so is WW. I'm not wondering what she's doing...

Had an interesting conversation w/ the ship's Catholic chaplain today. Not being Catholic (WW is - lapsed), I needed to understand his faith's take on the whole situation. What he told me about Contrition turned on a light bulb. I've told her before that I have yet to hear an apology that's worth a s#it, and I just realized that it's because she's said she's sorry i'm hurting, that this is hard, etc., but no apology for having an affair!

Also, guilt - to me it's something that's supposedd to KEEP you from doing hurtful things, not something you're supposed to carry around like a cross after you sin...

Chaplain made the great recommendation that the whole family go in for counseling together. He pointed out that most military families, by virture of our deployments, are dysfunctional in one way or another...so true.

plan of attack upon return:

1. expose
2. draw line - identify my boundaries to her - no contact
3. counseling for us
4. Plan B if she resists

Capitan:

First off Thank you to you and your family for your service. Second I am sorry you are going through this.

I am not a WW however I am a long time military wife. I am not in anyway condoning your wife's behavior.

You have done very well in your career and I am going to guess that has come at a great price to your family life. I imagine that many things have had to come before your wife. Including the men and women who you have working for you and with you. As a wife we are caught in a difficult position. We are very proud of the accomplishments our h have made in their careers, however we long for that same type of committment to us, our marriage and our kids. I came to realize awhile ago that I will never be a higher priority than my h career in the military. It hurts, it hurts a great deal however that is what I have had to come to accept and adjust to.

Military wives also find ourselves in a catch 22 position. We have to be strong, we have to carry on, we have to be in charge when you guys are gone and when you have such a heavy load to carry because of your jobs. We learn to carry it so we don't have to bother our h with things that are normally shared in a marriage. This is bad in ways that it gives our h the false belief that we don't need their help and therefor they let us carry on as is. When in reality that is not necessarily true. We want our h beside us helping us. I have wanted for years for my h to lead, however because of what he does that is not possible most of the time.

You talked about the retirement issue. Wow sounds like where we have been. My h did offer to retire, I also told him no. The reason was because I knew how important the military is to him and I believed that he would have held that against me. I wanted him so badly to make the decision himself. I often envy RIF and Mortman's wives as they made a very difficult decision and placed their wives ahead of them. What an amazing sacrifice for them to do. I do understand what you are saying about retirement money and not being able to get out. We also have done that. I cannot fault my h for that thinking because I know he is thinking about the financial security of us, however at what cost. You are in a difficult place, I understand.

As for your ww I can understand where she might be coming from. It is very lonely to be a military spouse. Even though we are very proud of our loved ones we are also very lonely. I am tired of living in my marriage by myself. That is how I feel. Therefor I know that I am in a position to have an affair myself, and I guard myself. I do not put myself in a position with any other male to fulfill the EN's that my h cannot fill because he is gone. Or because we had to cancel something or go do it without him because something came up that he has to take care of. So I keep myself out of those type of situations. Unfortunately your wife did not.

Also how do you talk about females that are under your command? How do you talk about your wife to other females or even other men in your command? I find it very hard when my h discusses other women and their accomplishments. It hurts because I don't hear him talk about me in this way. I'm just a SAHM while these other women have these important jobs, and get this recognition and help from my h. While I'm at home trying to make things work by myself. When I would love to have his help and encouragement.

Sometimes I feel like my h just comes home to play with us for awhile and then goes back to living his real life. Because when he is gone we are...............

When you are away do you send your wife flowers just because? When your home do you make time to just be with her or is something else always more important? How are you showing to her that she is the most important person in your life? Are you praying for her?

Try to read the book Love and Respect. It may give you some insight on things that you can do.

Again I am not making excuses for what your ww is doing. Just some insights in to how she can get to where she is without meaning too. I am not saying it is all your fault either, it's not. Just some thoughts from an old military wife who would love to know that I am important to him.

I pray that you are able to work this out with you ww. You are definitely in a difficult position. I just think that your ww is hurting and hurting a lot, that if she believed she was really important to you it may turn many things around.

BJS, thanks for your experiences and insight.

My WW would be the first to tell you that I've given her full responsibility for all my successes, both privately and publicly. This has not always been the case, however, and that's one of the things I would have done differently could I do this all over again.

Her apparent self-sufficiency didn't show me how much she still needed, and I was not fulfilling hardly any of her ENs. This changed about 4-5 years ago, when she had already emotionally "left", or so I found out recently. She followed the classic "walkaway wife" MO, staying in the marriage and giving me the impression everything was OK...not great, but OK.

I do not, nor have I ever, given her any reason to even think about females in my command. I've only given her the biggest positive strokes about the importance of family, her nurturing, her support, and how her job is so much more difficult than mine.

I know full well how we got here...I understand what happened. However, that doesn't make it "right".

She has never apologized for the affair, just for the hurt I'm feeling. The Catholic chaplain here likened that to an incident when he was a child in seminary school when he hit another boy. When he was hauled up to account for it, he was sorry the guy was hurt, sorry he got told on, sorry he was in trouble, sorry the kid had said things to make him mad, and was especially sorry he was standing in front of the headmaster. What he wasn't sorry for was hitting the guy. That's not contrition, and Jill's doing the same thing. She has yet to truly confess and apologize for the real hurt - the affair. From that true contrition would come penance, which she's avoiding completely.

Again, I understand all the reasons she did what she did...However, many others have faced such problems and chose, instead to work on the marriage, not to cheat and leave.

"If the grass is greener on the other side, it's time to water your lawn"

All true Capitan. Unfortunately, if you expect a WS to see this, to tell the truth, to live in reality...then you are mistaken. They are under the influence...and as such, will not respond as most normal people will. They will respond as a drunk does.

So, get off the idea of an apology. You will wait a long time for that...if you ever get it! What you are concentrating on is saving your marriage and your family. And that can be done without an apology!

Wow, is your Chaplain ever wise!!! This was and is my EX WW to a tee.......

Capitan
Your WW won't say she is sorry until she actually feels sorry, and its obvious she doesn't right now.
In her mind the M was all but over but in name, so she probably feels little remorse at this time, she doesn't recognise yet that it was simply wrong.

Just a little gentle 4x2 .. I doubt you really know the whole truth of how your WW feels and felt about your career Vs her and family. I doubt even she does more to the point.
Until you both attend a good MC one day .. sooner hopefully than otherwise ... then you will not realise how long and how deep the resentment goes.
And NO its no excuse
I was amazed at my own depth of resentment going back 20 yrs. And they usually were not the big things. More like not being there for a family BBQ, kids & parents greet the teacher days and the like. Oh there were the important ones like anniversaries, birthdays, the holidays I had to cancel with 2 hours notice and the like too but the seeming endless little things surprised me as well.
Of course what my MC got me to recognise was that HE also missed them. He just acted as if they didn't mean that much and I now know that wasn't true at all.

I would not be surprised at all if there isn't similar kind of things here.

Oh yes what was it they told him at the RM College .. "Never apologise Cadet, its a sign of weakness!!!" SIGH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />