Renamed this thread as I'm re-defining my strategy and outlook... I am now taking charge of MY life, MY responsibilities and MY family... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

...that said, here’s my story. My WS’s EA began 2 years ago this week.

I’m a career military man w/ over 20 years serving my country. As such, I’ve been deployed many times to many places. Met my amazing WS when a young officer and got married after 3 months of “dating” before I shipped off to Desert Storm. She has been the consummate military wife – supportive, strong, and independent. I am also somewhat “opinionated”…comes w/ the job. Our two incredible children came at years 3 and 4.

We’ve always been a good “team”. She’s a fantastic mom, having pretty much raised her 2 younger brothers without a father and an alcoholic mother.

At about year 5, as WS showed less and less interest in me due to kids, life, etc. Fast-forward a few years and sex was a rare occurence - not due to lack of interest, but due to fear of rejection (probably on both sides...) 5 years ago, she started saying things like “be nice to me”, and “one of these days someone is going to be nice to me and I don’t know what I’ll do.” What did I do? I froze like a deer in the headlights…froze like in a minefield, not wanting to take a step. OK, wrong thing to do.

Someone who was “nicer” came along while I was deployed and she started her EA. This guy is everything I’m not…unambitious, uneducated, a musician. (He briefly gave my teenage son drum lessons before EA started in earnest. My son volunteered that he was a “loser”.)

So, the EA becomes a PA and goes on a year before I find the pictures…bottom dropped out, world stopped spinning, life ended…you know the drill. WS denies anything happening, then says he’s a friend, etc. I go through all the usual stuff…grief, anger, depression, anger, begging, etc., etc. This all happens before I educate myself on the whole A deal. I talk her into going to MC. Her going in position is that she doesn’t want to be married anymore and she wants me to “let her go”. She is not “in love” w/ me anymore…

I find this guy’s email and tell him I know about the A, that his actions are inappropriate and that he should cease and desist. To his credit, he writes back and basically says he’ll respect our marriage.

About a dozen joint and single counseling sessions later, the MC basically tells me to move on. Nope, not gonna throw in the towel. No MB weekends available during my off time. I hear about the Marriage Bootcamp and talk WS into going. My hope is that perhaps she'll open up to the possiblity of reconcillation, and she hopes I'll "let her go". It was an absolutely amazing experience! WS still unmoved, although she basically tells everyone I’m this great husband, a good man, and she wants me to find someone else, someone who “can’t wait for me to come home at the end of each day.” Who can argue w/ that?? I just want that person to be her!

Oh yeah, all the while, she’s calling this guy about a dozen times a day.

My take on her is that she’s in the normal progression of WS behavior. She appears to be moving towards NC but who knows…I’m so tired of spying – it’s too draining, makes me feel dirty, and it can become as much of an addiction as the A itself.

She keeps using the D word, yet neither of us have filed. Haven’t told kids but they’re not stupid. Funny thing is, there’s never been less fighting in the house than in the last year. I’ve been doing the plan A drill…mostly. Man it’s hard, I’m a results-oriented kinda guy. Anyway, here we are, 2 years in and I’ll probably only be home 6 months out of the next 2 years at home due to my next assignment.

What now???

Wait? Tell the kids? Blow the whistle on the affair to his parents, our friends, our kids??? File? I feel like my entire life is on hold and I wake up every morning wondering what’s going to happen. Lack of control over my own life…

Ideas please!!

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Reposted here at Chrisner's suggestion.

Also, OM is not married, is 7 years WS's junior, has a 15 yr old illegitimate son...this guy's a prize... His father left his mother for another woman (he's also a musician). His mother is the nicest person possible...and WS spends much time w/ her. I had long conversation w/ OMs mom about a year ago basically telling her that I exist, that we're still married, that I love her, am trying to work things out, etc., etc. Her response was that WS is ultimately responsible for her own actions. WS tells me that OM's mom has repeatedly asked her if WS is "sure" about divorce, and counsels her that it's devastating.

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Have you read "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley?

Does OM have a girlfriend? (GF) Often, these OMs do...long-time ones. Worth finding out on your own.

Please don't give OM any credit (referring to your "to his credit") because he isn't respecting your marriage...he gave you lip service.

He lied. That's what waywards do.

Definitely expose...and let the outcome go. Do you have emails for proof of the EA? The pictures you found...did you retain them (lock them away) and can you state what they were...for instance, "My wife has been engaged in an affair with so-and-so. They have exchanged naked pictures, and talked last month over 2000 minutes." Something close to that?

Exposure is to share reality and ask for support as you commit to saving your marriage.

I'm stunned with the six months at home over the next two years, though...I can't fathom a marriage like that. Just not in my range of experience or understanding. Not a judgment.

I'll do a call out to Mortarman and Longhorn...there are many other military BH's here. As well as military wives.

My oldest son married two years into his enlistment and I saw first hand what a struggle it was for him and his wife. I'm blessed because he's now out and I have my first grandbaby...only there are lasting consequences to their choices...related to being married and living continents apart for two years, and now hitting that year and a half mark, living together.

Have you asked for a NC letter which she writes and you both send together (snail mail)?

What did you learn in the Marriage Bootcamp?

For your Plan A, have you identified to the best of your ability what her top ENs are? Your LBs? Does the results-oriented person you are (which I took to indicate a deep desire for instant results) see your own changes as results? Are you rather thrilled with who you are now, what you're doing for your half of the marriage?

Also, when you searched for a great marriage counselor, did you interview them to see if they were pro-marriage? Maybe you can find one who is familiar with Dr. Harley's approach, and specialize in affair recovery. Doesn't sound like the counselor you mentioned was committed to the long haul...more like the quick answer. You both have a lot of years together...that's a lot of incidents, moments and events...time for stacked resentment (I got from her threat to find someone who would be nice to her), hardened into entitlement and lack of respect.

You realize you froze...from fear. Can you list all that you now see you were doing (and not doing), own them, apologize and develop new habits where acting from your love is your calling...and not LBing is in your code? The BS can dazzle the WS...I think it's what really cuts through the fog. Takes ownership, not blame.

Welcome to MB, Capitan. Thank you for being here.

LA

Cap,

I am so sorry to hear of your plight, but glad you came here for help!

Some questions for you - you say you talked to OM's mom, what about anyome else? Friends, co-workers, your family?

You say you have been 'doing the PlanA drill, mostly'. Give us some detail on what that means exactly.

I see great hope here as she has not done anything to move towards the D. Remember, words are words. Actions mean much more.

Have you read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs?

Do you know what her top needs are? What have you been doing to meet those needs?

You say it is an EA, but you mention pics. Not to get graphic, but what does that mean?

I understand being 'results' oriented, I am in sales. But, as you probably know this process does not work that way.

Read, study, learn, post, and be patient. You sound like a determined man. Keep the faith!

Welcome to GQII Capitan. There is a lot more activity here and some great “old-timers” passing through daily.

Have you done any reading on Plan A and “Emotional Needs”? You need to find what your WW top emotional needs are and what she is missing from you. Learn about "Lovebusters" and how to avoid them.

Again find and read Harley’s “Surviving an Affair” as soon as possible.

Hopefully Motarman and others will pick up on this thread over the next day.

You should talk to OM’s Dad as soon as possible.


And yet they talk a dozen times a day.


Not even close if they are talking that much or in truth talking at all. She is in an active affair and will remain in one as long as they have any contact.

Here is what must happen:

1) The affair must be exposed to everyone who can help. The affair must be killed.
2) Your WW must achieve No Contact (NC) for life with the OM. They can not see each other or talk again.
3) If this occurs and she stays she will go through a true period of withdrawal from her affair that could last several weeks to several months.
4) Only after her withdrawal can the recovery of your marriage begin.

If the affair does not end you need to look at the application of Plan B.

But First: Plan A. Read, read, read. Get a plan going.

I am sure others will be jumping in soon.

By the way, thank you very much for your service and sacrifice for our country.

Capt'n - I suggest you change the name of your thread to indicate you are military - LA posted a call-out for some of the military men here but I also suggest you re-name your thread so you get the right attention.

hm,mmmmm... you are starting out well. Read the SAA and HNHN.

OM won't back off. I told OW to back off or I'd take her down. She didn't although she said "I'm going back to my husband". So, I did. I exposed to EVERYONE. Including my FWH's commander, HER H (she was in the military), and everyone I could think of. I was not going to let my marriage go without a fight.

In the end, SHE lost a promotion, forced out of the military. She's now out of state and my husband hasn't had ANY contact since August of last year.

There IS hope. Spying is a necessary evil. Eventually, it will become less important, once trust begins to be rebuilt. MC will NOT be effective until the A has ended, or at least NC has begun. Speaking from experience. And for me, the only way I was able to accomplish NC was getting H's commander involved and spying. You can click on my story for the recovery and on my profile for a link to the original "just found out" thread.

The best thing I did was expose. Even to my oldest son (the others two are too young to know). Hardest thing you'll ever do, but the best.

My advice is to involve OM's mother, since she's against this and under the impression that the M is over. She would be very interested to know that her son is actively involved in destroying a M. Have HER also expose, if possible.

Once the A comes into FULL LIGHT... the A will die. Pop their little fantasy bubble. Once it becomes harsh reality, they won't like it much.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the quick response, all...I will try to tackle the questions above to flesh out the story.

I read SAA about a year ago when I first found out. As for Plan A, I've been trying to focus on changing ME first. Yes, I'm thrilled w/ who I now am...as a matter of fact, I'd been changing drastically over the last 3-4 years as I became increasingly aware of WW's "unhappiness". I couldn't help but wonder how I was contributing. My primay LB was being critical. Not to get into it, but I clearly didn't mean it in a negative way, just offering "advice"...how stupid was that. Anyway, I clearly own my contributions and WW has mentioned that I am a completely different person - in a good way - but that it's "too late", she's already not "in love" with me. I've offered my take on love and that it's cyclical, a decision, based on so much more than the addictive high of infatuation, etc.

My plan A has also had ups and downs, mostly due to my occasional "pushing", and anger when new information and lies hit me in the face. She claims we "should have been divorced a year ago" as flimsy excuse to continue A.

Yes A was also sexual, but not based on such, as far as I can tell. Long and frequent phone calls suggest more of an EA w/ sexual "benefits".

As for pics, the one of them kissing (that was the one that confirmed A) I destroyed. I still have 2 pics of them together smiling for the camera...she looks positively happy...it makes me so sad. I also have a letter from her to him in which she expresses her deep disappointment at his reaction to her announcement of her pregnancy (she wasn't, she was just "having a moment", in her words when I confronted her w/ letter.

No OMGF as far as I can tell.

Spying...not good for my soul, but it's almost as though I need some independent source to verify what I think I know. She is too good at denying, lying, deceipt and counterattack...I begin to doubt what is true.

I've also talked to a few close friends from previous tours - none of them in our current location. Afraid of what exposure close to home will do. Don't know how or what to tell kids and don't want them to find out from anyone but us.

Living situation. WW has been sleeping on couch ever since my return from my last deployment this spring. I'm back out at sea for a month.

Her EN, ironically, center around quality time - something very hard to give in this job. I never knew it because she's always appeared to be so strong and independant. One of her strengths is that she's so very selfless and supportive of all those around her - to the detriment of paying attention to herself. Her upbringing required that.

At bootcamp I learned of her ENs, as well as my own. I learned that I truly am a great person in my own right and was able to forgive myself for not having been the person I wanted to be all my life, and for the hurt I've caused others. I am a new man and really like that person. That makes this situation that much harder...there's no "down side" in saving this marriage. I'm not abusive, WW says I'm a "catch", I'm supportive, loving, good in the sack (or so she says)...etc., etc., she's just "NOT IN LOVE W/ ME"...how do you fight that?

Anyway, I try not to do "frontal assault", and just continue to demonstrate how great a husband I am.

Get this - after returning from bootcamp, something was not quite right in the house - things slightly askew, if you know what I mean. Turns out OM came to our house the day night we returned (I spent the night w/ Sister upon return). When confronted she'd said she'd called him on the way home (between planes, no less) to tell him to come so that she could talk to him. she claimed she needed to see him to tell him she would not be seeing him "for awhile". Perhaps the bootcamp gave her at least that much clarity. She said it was her fault, she blew it, it wasn't a good idea, she was so very sorry, etc. I absolutely hit the ceiling! I finally told WW all the things I've been holding inside so as not to LB. I said that this was the ultimate disrespect, that this was my house too and I felt violated, unsafe, as though his slime is now in every nook and cranny of my life.

I phoned him in front of her and told him in no uncertain terms that he was not to come anywhere near my home again, ever.

I then notice some unusual browsing history...turns out he'd been in the house off and on the entire time we were away!!! - She'd said he could use computer to help w/ some business stuff he was doing in town. (he lives about 3 hours away but has family nearby).

I emailed him a truly nasty email basically telling him he is the scum of the earth for not respecting our marriage - our home. His response was that she'd offered and that it was her house too. My response was that some offers shouldn't be taken up on. If my wife had offered to allow him to take naked pics of our daughter, shouldn't he KNOW it would be wrong??!! Anger...RAGE.

Calming down...

Was she truly beginning NC? Was she just away w/ OM's mom? How appropriate is that relationship? (she's essentially become the mother she wished she had - calm, down to earth, easy - although clearly a doormat)

So this all happened just 10 short days before leaving for another month...and here I am away again.

My current job will locate me about 3 hours away from home and will be spending most weeknights close to job and weekends at "home"...

Not clear who else to expose this to. My mom and sisters know, along w/ one of her closest friends in another state (who she won't phone back, btw.) We have some good friends in town and our children are all friends. She must have had our S stay at one of their houses while she skipped town this last weekend. Do I tell them?

Clarity needs to return...help!

Capitan,
I am a military contractor and my WW started her affair right before I came over to the Middle East about 14 months ago. I found out about it 2 months after I got here. I have been here a couple of days over a year and go home in 13 days for good. I am so sorry you are going through this. I know how you feel. My wife said pretty much the same crap to me, including bringing OM around our kids so much that they were calling me by his name. He was a loser too. He was an alcoholic, ex-convict (her first love, how sweet LOL). Anyway, my WW and I are going to start recovery when I get home. This has been the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with, but God got me through it. Again, I am so sorry you are here. Listen to the pro's on here because they know what they are talking about. They gave me GREAT advice for my situation. I posted this on the wrong thread. Sorry

Hi Capitan - First of all, thank you for serving your country and welcome to MB!

One of the hardest things for me to deal with besides the 'normal' pain of Mrs. RIF's A's, was the "shame" of realizing that I couldn't 'control' my own wife. For us military guys, it's all about 'control'... control of our careers, control of our unit, control of our family... and so on. As officer's we're held to a higher standard and we're expected to have all the answers and set the example...

When Mrs. RIF had her "1st A", I was a brand new 2LT in a foreign country and she was an 18 year old mom. I was beginning my career and thought I had the world by the tail... only to find out that I wasn't meeting Mrs. RIF's needs. There was much more to it that caused Mrs. RIF to stray, but looking back on that period of our lives, I wasn't there for her emotionally and I had the typical "suck it up and drive on" attitude of a good junior officer when she would try to reach out and connect with me.

After reading your post it appears that you're treating this as a military exercise. You've identified the problem (WS's EA with OM) and you've evaluated your COAs (MC, IC, M Bootcamp, etc.) and now you're working your plan... except things aren't going like you think they should (ie- your W still hasn't committed to rebuilding the M) Is this a good summary so far? There's nothing wrong with using your military training, but there's one important step that they don't teach you at CGSC or the War College... more on that in a bit...

I found out about one of Mrs. RIF's A's, I suspected another one while we were still overseas, but I didn't learn of the seven other A's that she had during our first three years of M until 10 years later.

We never worked through the issues of her "1st A", and we both just acted like it "never happened". After learning of the other A's, I was determined to work through this and rebuild our M. I evaluated where we were, came up with a plan, and went at it full speed...

As I said earlier, there was one thing that isn't taught in the military... and that is how to deal with PRIDE. My own pride held me back when we first started out to rebuild our M... I was proud of my abilities as a military officer, as a husband, as a father... and I couldn't see past my own pride and realize that I had some areas that I really needed to work on. I tried to force Mrs. RIF into solving this problem with me, when I was the one that was holding us back. She was the one that strayed from our M, so why in the world should I even have to do anything! She should be the one begging me for forgiveness and she should be the one willing to do anything to "make it up" to me... after all I was a successful military officer and she was the one that had 'ruined' our M...etc, etc, etc....

Mrs. RIF told me later on after we were well into rebuilding our M, that she was so happy that I stopped treating her like "one of my soldiers"... her comment really hit home with me and I realized that it didn't matter what my "intentions" were, what really mattered was how Mrs. RIF perceived my intentions.

Through MC, I learned how to work together with Mrs. RIF and how I needed to provide a safe place for her. I learned that I needed to do the right thing because it was the right thing to do, and not because I wanted to see a specific action or reaction in Mrs. RIF. I learned that I had to love Mrs. RIF just as Christ loves His church and that involved putting her needs and her feelings above my own.

For me, it was very hard to step out of my "military mode" and really take a good, hard look at my own actions. 20+ years of training and conditioning are a hard thing to change...

Once I realized that I could only change myself, I started working on me... as I made changes that I needed to make, Mrs. RIF started coming around... and she started doing the things that I wanted her to do all along.

Rebuilding is hard work, but it is possible to rebuild your M after an A (or in our case, multiple A's)... Think about what I've shared and if you have any specific questions, I'll be glad to try and answer them for you. I'm 8.5 hours ahead of you guys in the states so give me some time to reply...

I wish you and your W the best as you start to rebuild your M!

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hey Capitan - I posted before I read your second post... and I didn't realize that your W is still in contact.

I agree with the others, Expose! Expose! Expose! ...to the OM's mother, your W's close friends, anyone that has a positive influence on your W. Your first task is to stop the A... In this case you SHOULD use your military training and take an all out frontal assault on this guy and anyone else that's helping fuel the A...

MC won't do you a bit of good if she's still seeing the OM...

Thankfully, Mrs. RIF and I worked through all of our past issues and I don't have to worry about her straying while I'm deployed... It really sucks to be away and not know what's going on back home...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hey Capitan - You said that you have 20+ years in... have you considered putting in your retirement papers? It's a drastic step, but if one of your W's most important EN's is Quality Time, then its going to be VERY hard to meet this need while you're at sea or deployed...

Just a thought...

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF, thanks so much for your honest and forthright input. Your first post was an absolutely a dead-on evaluation of our marriage of about 5 years ago... Pride, ego - not at all healthy for a good marriage. I always had a feeling she was unhappy but chalked it up to "her" problems. Sure she has many, and the primary one is, i'm now finding, lack of self esteem - a normal result of being an adult child of an alcoholic.

What I missed, however, was my own faults, and as I said in my previous post, I've done a complete 180...almost like having a complete change of body chemistry. I don't think I really liked myself before but am very happy now. Biggest indicator of my change is that my relationship w/ my 13/14 yr old children is 1,000% better than ever before. I realized that I wasn't happy w/ how things were going w/ them and simply turned it around. It is those relationships and my having found myself that keeps me going.

I'm using the same techniques w/ WW, but as you say, she must cease contact.

OK, for those of you who've read my previous posts...pls tell me, unequivocally, that she's still in contact so I can get on with this thing!

As for retirement papers, I put that on the table as this thing first bubbled up. I told her I'd retire tomorrow, but she said no, that would be stupid, as there's a significant change in retirement pay btwn now and in a few years. It's only money, however, and I still would retire tomorrow if I thought that would make a difference (just executed PCS orders so stuck here for 2 yrs). However, quality time is just what she said she needed, and if that's the case, she's not getting it from the OM either. bottom line, she's in such a fog I don't think she really has any idea WHAT she needs, because I'm prepared to give anything.

As mentioned before, she has no one she looks up to, no mentor, no close friends...it makes me really sad for her - her whole life now revolves around the OM and his mom.

RIF, stay safe in Afghan. I just returned from western Iraq myself...what a mess.

Post deleted by Capitan

Hey Capitan - Based on what you've shared with us, and your last post where you said: I think that she's still in contact, if not with this one OM, then possibly another.

I could be wrong, but if you've done the 180 and she's still not responding to you, I suspect that it's because you're just not physically there for her and the OM and his mom are. As long as you are at sea or deployed, she's going to find a way to meet her need for quality time... and from what you're telling us, I strongly believe that it's the OM and his mother that are meeting that need.

I understand about the additional years for your retirement, but hey, what's that retirement going to be worth if you lose your wife? She will get at least 1/2 of it and your family will be torn apart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I got off active duty about 10 years ago because of the stress on the family, but stayed in the Army reserves... I'm on my third deployment since 2001. I finally got my 20 year letter this past June and I'm hanging it up after this. I'm thankful that Mrs. RIF and my three girls are allowing me to do this, but I can assure you that if Mrs. RIF was where your wife is right now, I'd be on the first plan home and my retirement papers would be in.

You mentioned that quality time might not be her most important EN... again, you are going to have a very hard time trying to find out what her most important EN is while you are separated...

I suspect that your wife has a ton of resentment towards you for your successful miltary career (Our wives sacrifice a TON of things for our careers and it's easy for resentment to build)... Mrs. RIF said that she always resented me because "all I ever cared about was the Army"... and that I treated her like one of my soldiers. Ouch! that hurt, and at first I was very defensive. We were both conflict avoiders so we never really talked about stuff like this until we finally started MC in Jan 2001.

Think about the resentment issues and see if that might be what your W is dealing with. It could be that your offer to retire was exactly what she was looking for... but she just told you that retireing would be silly, just to see if you were really willing to "put her first" over your career. In your mind, you thought that she really wanted you to continue your service, but in her mind, it was probably a test... Who will Capitan put first - his career, or Mrs. Capitan???

I'm not saying that you're a "bad person" for continuing your service, I'm just thinking about some of the thought processes that Mrs. RIF had when we first started rebuilding...

Anyway, let me know if there are any specific questions you might have... if you want to e-mail me, my e-mail is rif902000@yahoo.com

Semper Fi,

RIF

Cap,

My H and I are retired military. He had EA/PA for a little over a year. He was a contractor and worked with OW. When he came and confessed to me, he went a step further and quit his job to get away from OW. His contracting job kept him away about 4-6 months a year. This separation is not conducive to a healthy marriage; please consider just putting in your retirement papers and working on your marriage. I can almost guarantee that your planned deployments are going to finish off your marriage.

Your WW is still in the fog and wants you stay in the military so she can continue her abhorant behavior unchecked.

I wish you luck and hope that you can pull through this.

Hi Cap.,

I am a military BW and am in year 3 of a 4-year recall from retirement. By the time they turn me loose, I'll have over 32 years in uniform.

First let me tell you, you don't need pictures or someone else to confirm that your wife is having both a EA and PA with this bum. SHe is not currently even considering NC or working on your marriage.

I agree with the others here that you should retire. Believe me, there are hundreds of great jobs waiting for you that will not require you to go anywhere if you don't want to.

You have been living in H3ll for 2 years now while she has both the benefit of the financial security that you provide AND the OM, who is really just for fun.

If you really feel that you have given your Plan A enough time, and IMHO you have, then it is probably time to strongly consider Plan B. And that plan B should include HER moving out, not you, and your kids should remain with you. I understand that you will by regulation have to give her your BAH, and that is unfortunate, but perhaps she needs a chance to see what a future with OM might look like if it doesn't include the perks that you now provide.

Just a thought.

Good luck,

Who

Capitan,

RIF (my old friend) is exactly right!

First off, a little background. I am a retired Army Infantry first sergeant and former Inspector General. With that being said, in September 2001, when I was deployed to Bosnia to round up scumbags and send them to Gitmo, my wife decided our marriage was over. When I came back 7 months later, things were a mess.

I continued in the Army for another year, as I tried to work things out. But, my wife was in the entitlement phase of the WS Handbook, and I had three kids. So, I went to talk to my sergeant major, right as we were gearing up for a year long deployment to Afghanistan. And the CSM told me staright out "Mortarman, blood comes first. I cant have you over there running a 126 man company with this going on back here. It does me no good...and you no good...to do this mission, and your family is destroyed."

I turned in my retirement paperwork the next week. Now, even though I had 21 years of service and could retire, I only had 17 years of active duty. Four years of my service was in the National Guard. So, you know what that means! I retired, with now only able to get retirement pay once I turn 55. Added to that, the amount of pay will be much less than if I had 20 active years. If I could have stayed 3 more years on active, I would have been drawing a hefty check right now for the rest of my life. I figured out the amount of money I lost and will lose in this deal...and you dont want to know!!

But, if I had done those last three years, which would have meant going on that deployment to Afghanistan and one more deployment to Iraq, I would be divorced right now. My wife would be married to some loser. My kids would be living with my wife and loser. Knowing that, I dont miss the money!!!

What does that mean for you? Well, I am going to tell you the same thing that CSM told me. And basically ask you...what are yoru priorities? What comes first? In my case, God comes first. Then my wife. Then my kids. Then my family (extended). Then my state (Virginia)...and then my country. In that order! Now, if a lower priority comes in conflict with a higher priority, then the lower priority loses. If my wife wants me to do something that is against God's will, then I dont do it. If my kids want something, but it is a detriment to my wife, my kids lose. If my state seceded from the Union (it has done it once before), then my country loses. Do you see what I am saying?

Besides God, your most important priority on this planet is not your kids, not the Navy (I am assuming you are Navy), and not a paycheck. The most important thing on this planet after God, is your wife. Period.

You put retirement on the table, as you said. And your wife said no. Guess what? You are the leader of your family, not your wife. And under normal circumstances, the two of you would POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement...read up on this on this site) when to retire. But right now, she is a foggy WW. So, her opinion really doesnt matter here. If she were drunk, would you hold weight to her opinions while she was drunk? Of course not. Well, she is "drunk" on the Om right now...and making very bad decisions all the way around.

Yo uare the leader. You are the only "sane" person in your family right now, at least when it comes to adults. The issue of retirement is YOUR decision to make right now, as your wife is incapable of making any rational decisions. Actually, in her foggy mind, all she sees is that if you stay deployed, she can continue to see OM as much as she wants (and he can hang out everyday in the house you are paying for) AND you can finish and get her a nice portion of your retirement. So, in her foggy mind, it is better for you to get on that boat.

But it is not better for her. It is not better for you. It is not better for your kids. You get on that boat, and you WILL be divorced. Of this I have no doubt!

Also, you say you have been Plan Aing for a year. That is too long! What did your Plan A consist of? Did it include exposue to EVERYONE? Did you figure out her top ENs as spelled out by Dr. Harley, and work on meeting them as she needs them met. Have you made sure that her immoral activities dont go onnoticed or unchallenged? What has been your plan? What is your plan now? If you dont have one, then it is time we all sit down with you and get the battle plan together. Because what I have read here is that you have been sort of wandering, hoping things get better.

So, first off, you need to consider retiring now. Second, you need to get in your house and make sure you are taking care of those kids (what are their ages/gender?). What state do you live in (I ask this so we can help you set up legally for a custody battle if it comes to that)? I came back, and got custody of my kids! And as Steve Harley told me, it is those kids that were the biggest asset to my marriage being able to recover.

So, I will await your response. This had gone on for awhile, so it will be harder work. But either way you go (reconciliation or divorce), the path is the same for you. You are going to have to get home and stay home. Yo uare going to have to protect your kids from a wayward and immoral mother. And you are going to have to work on moving you, your family...and possibly your wife...towards a better future.

Make no mistake...NO ONE can do it but you. Not a marriage counselor. Not a pastor. Not your wife, even. You are the ONLY one that is capable of changing this. You are the only one in command. And as you know from being in the military this long, it is lonely in command. It is hard.

Standing by...

Hey Mortarman! How's it going? Good to see you again...

RIF,

Good! How are things there? Dont want to threadjack here! Baby is due in a couple of weeks. marriage is better than ever!

Who would have "thunk" it??

RIF, Mortarman, WHO,

First off, thank God for all of you. Words cannot express how much it means to me to know there are people out there with success stories. Your experience and advice are precious.

No, even though she's mentioned breaking it off w/ OM for "a while", I'm guessing she's just keeping him in the wings until she gets the guts to proceed w/ divorce.

Am trying to contact her "closest" friend in another city. I'd mentioned to WS before that she should seek this friends advice but she'd mentioned that due to the friends strong Christian beliefs she wouldn't approve...well duh! WS blew up when I contacted OM's mom last year and threatened all kinds of things. I now understand the need to send out a 911 call to all those who care about her, me and us.

Plan A is hard when you're not home. In reality, the extent of my "functional" plan A has been limited to the 5 months over the last year I was home (2 months before last deployment and the 3 since returning. Even though the year + has been h3ll, effectively speaking, I'm not sure it's been enough time.

Here's the double-edge sword on the retirement thing... If in fact she decides to progress full-on w/ D (fog or not), I'd be putting myself in a difficult long-range position...divorced and out of a job...tough choice.

Mortarman, my priorities are clear, and the same as yours, but I'm also not forgetting that "I" fit into the priorities somewhere as well.

Thank you for the "drunk" analogy - it is apt, as her mother is an alcoholic, as she probably is as well.

Complicating matters is that I am committed for 2 yrs due to current PCS, after which I'll be on shore duty until retirement. This next tour is the make or break for our marriage. There is merit to the "I stay in the house" COA, but in reality, logistics make that difficult. Do I just make it home whatever nights I can and assume I'm sleeping in my own bed? Until she agrees to NC, I'm just guessing she'll skedaddle for the weekends when I'm home.

Thank you all for pointing out that, yes, I AM in charge. WW has always given the appearance of the strong, independent Navy wife and I (mistakenly) assumed she knew what she was doing...things are not always what they seem. I've just recently achieved that epiphany and am learning how to make decisions at home.

Any thoughts about telling kids? Mortarman, your kids were probably a little younger than mine are right now...thoughts?

OBTW, I'm in Washington state - community property and no-fault.

Hi Capitan -

Welcome to MB, though I'm sorry you have the need to be here. RIF and MM have you given you some great advice - you would do well to heed it.

I'm ex-navy myself - left in 98 as a LT. What community are you in? If you're up in WA (I was until recently in OR myself) you could be surface, sub or air - or anything in between <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (I'm just curious, you don't have to answer that).

I want to highlight what RIF said to you. It's kind of ironic, because I was talking a while back with an ex-Army officer about how it seems that the military officers on her seem to have a harder time dealing with this than the enlisted folk. His assessment (which I agree with) matches a lot of what RIF said. The communication style used in the military doesn't translate well into a marital relationship, and as officers we're trained to look out for, take care of and take responsibility for our people.

That works well (most of the time) in the military, but it doesn't translate well into marriage. Beware the temptation to "rescue" your wife....it's an outgrowth of that whole "Know my people and take responsibility for their actions" line of thinking.

Two years is a long time to be in Plan A (I say this as I've been in and out of Plan A for the last two years myself). Do keep in mind that the longer you stay in Plan A without a response from your wife, the more love you will lose for her.

I don't have any good advice for you, and for that I apologize. I'm so deep right now in my crap that I've clearly lost the bubble and have no idea where it went or where it is.

Having said that, we're all here to support you. Keep posting - you'll get a lot of support and a lot of good advice here.

Capt,

I do not dare to give you advice, you have the best tending to your situation.

Just a note to say to have a shipmate standing by, and pulling for you.

-JKT

Thanks Healingbird and JKT.

Good words on "rescuing". Can't deny I've had those thoughts, but my true motivation has more to do w/ my love for her and our family and my responsibility to be the one strong person in the situation to make a difference. If I "gave up", it can't be until I know that all options have been truly exhausted. However, I will not let me or my children "go down w/ the ship".

This sucks.

Hey Capitan,



I’m afraid that if you continue to let your W stay in contact with the OM and he’s basically “living” at your house while you’re at sea or away, then you’re going to end up divorced anyway… As far as “out of a job”… I don’t think you’ll have ANY trouble finding a job. It was a huge decision for me to get off active duty, you know, giving up a paycheck on the 1st and 15th of each month… great benefits… respect… etc. But I can tell you that you WILL be OK when you leave the military…



I understand the PCS rules… have you talked with your C of C about your situation? One thing that I didn’t do, and looking back, wish that I had done, was to inform my C of C about my family “issues”. I was too embarrassed and was worried that it would “affect” my career… so I kept everything to myself. In the end, it DID affect my career, and I truly believe that if I’d gone to my C of C first, that things might have turned out a bit differently. My point is, that you are not going to be able to work on your M as long as the OM is in the picture… If there’s any way to PCS your W and kids to where you are, I would strongly suggest you see if you can do that…



I never told my oldest daughter (she was one to three) when Mrs. RIF was involved in all of her A’s. When we started MC in 2000-2001, Mrs. RIF had had NC for over 10 years, so I didn’t feel any need to inform our girls (we had three by this time)… As for your situation, I will defer to Mortarman’s advice… I would venture a guess that your kids ALREADY know that something is going on with their mom and the OM… and that if you explain things to them in a loving way (don’t be vengeful and try to turn them against their mom) that they could be good allies with you in this battle… but again, Mortarman has more experience in this area than I do.

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF...thanks again.

She will NOT bring him into our house w/ the kids - she doesn't respect the OM that much and no doubt fears the kids' judgment of him. Instead, she has kids stay w/ friends and goes "shopping" in the big city.

Too early to tell CoC. I'm fairly senior - post command, and the job I'm in is a high-priority, must-fill billet. Getting "out of it" would be tough...and might result instead in my being sent IA for a year to fulfill obliserve...defeating the whole purpose.

OBTW, affair began while I was an XO and I found out a month after taking command...talk about living a lie! She was great, however, and continued to be the best CO's wife...at least outwardly. I've got to give her that, she's good at keeping up appearances.

Standing by for any advice anyone may have on how/if to expose w/ teenagers. I will NOT trash her...this whole thing is about love, not revenge.

Cap,

Hope the seas are calm for you tonight!

Exposure is not like intervention. You tell your truth and info on what is going on to any and all that you can. Give the facts of what WW is up to and how YOU love your WW and want to restore your marriage. Ask for their support.

Do NOT tell WW anything prior to exposure. It is important to do it swiftly to all the people you plan to expose to all at once. This keeps WW from having the chance to put her own 'spin' on things first.

I have younger children, and it is ultimatly your call What to say to them. However, remember kids are smart and perceptive. At 6 and 12, my kids knew what was up. I told them straight forward and age appropriate that Daddy has a relationship w/ X and it is not right. Daddy's do not have girlfriends when they are married. Period.

Chances are your kids will welcome the chance to finally talk about what they already KNOW is going on. Very likely, they have not said anything as they want to protect you and they are afraid of what may happen if/when YOU find out. Let them know it is OK to talk to you about ALL of it and especially their feelings.

You are doing great. Asking questions and carefully planning your way.

Hang in there.

Hey Capitan,



The sad unspoken part of this statement is that your W doesn’t respect HERSELF and the Marriage enough to stay away from this OM… I think it’s critical that you inform your kids of mom’s “inappropriate” relationship with this OM. Like BM said above, they already KNOW that something isn’t right. Expose to the friends that she drops the kids off with and ask them for their help. They can help by NOT watching the kids when she want’s to go visit the OM. And if the kids know about the relationship with the OM, they are old enough to put pressure on her to stop. Again, let your kids know that you LOVE their mom and that you are fighting to save the marriage and that you need their prayers and their help… I’m sure that they will willingly join you in this battle.



I never exposed to my C of C during Mrs. RIF’s three years of A’s but I did expose to her parents… but they were in the states so it didn’t do very much good. Everything that I’ve read here about exposure is to do it quickly, notify everyone that you think has an influence/impact on the WS, and do NOT inform the WS prior to exposure… Like BM said, you don’t want to give your W a chance to lay a smoke screen and spread her disinformation.



Understand about the additional commitment if you jump ship now… so that COA is out. Well, is there any way that you can move the family up to where you are? Or are they already there, but you’re just out a sea for 6 months at a time? I’m sorry, but I’m not very familiar with how the Navy works. (I was in the Marine Corps right out of HS, but the only Navy people that we came in contact with were our Docs)… If they’re at another location, is there any way to PCS them to your home port so you could at least go home when you’re not at sea?



Mrs. RIF basically didn’t even try to be an officer’s wife… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> she was sleeping around with my enlisted soldiers… talk about a major blow to my ego and pride! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thankfully, her actions then, do NOT define who she is today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. RIF is a godly wife and mother and I’m so very lucky to be married to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know that you’re discouraged and that this stuff is killing you, but there is hope. The first step in all of this is to get her into NC with the OM.

You can make it through this. Hang in there and let us know if there's anything we can help you with. Again, if you have any specific questions that you'd rather not post, you can always e-mail me at rif902000@yahoo.com

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks "Mom",

So just exactly how does exposure work then? What effect does it have if she doesn't know people know. What if I tell everyone and they choose to look the other way, not deal with it, or shrug their shoulders and say - "I'm really sorry, that's too bad"... In my exposure, what support am I asking for besides their support for me?

Your guidance on telling kids is good, thanks. Do I tell them w/ her present? That could put them in a difficult position if she's determined for no one to know...

Hey Capitan - Not to steal BM's thunder, but the intent is to expose PRIOR to telling your W. Once you've exposed, it's OK to tell your W that you've enlisted the help of (list everyone that you've exposed to) to help SAVE this marriage.

She of course will then know that she can't rely on these people to help her in her affair.

The main goal is to expose the affair before you inform your W.

Hope this helps...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Capitan:

Point of reference: I had a 4.5 year LTA with another woman.

It was comfortable. Nobody KNEW but us. Wife suspected about 1 year before DDay, but was unwilling to confront about it.

And I wasn't talking about it.

You KNOW about your WW's activities. But she continues to be comfortable.

It time to start breaking that comfort zone.

My LTA ended on Dday. Because of your long absences, and your WW beliefs, she can stay low-level for many months when you are around.

Time to break the comfort zone.

As the other long term military have described, they have lost out big-time financially because of thier Wayward spouses activities, and the need to leave the service sooner than retirement age, etc. Sometimes that is the ramifications of thier spouses choices, and what needed to be done to restore thier relationship.

You state that your WW is going to be living 3 hours away from you. Time to rent that house and move her closer to you. If she is in on-base housing, and you are not permitted on base housing at your new posting, then you do what you have to do. Take the kids with you.

That may cost you alot of money. So be it. Your WW is comfortable. Heck, the OM is comfortable in your house while you are gone.

You have to break that comfort zone.

Mortarman did it, RIF did, and now you have to. Even WhoMe has some parallels. The Wayward can be very comfortable for a long time, because that's the easy route.

I was there.

As harsh as some of the recommended actions may be, it may be the only way to get your WW to "get it"

And that "get" is that you are no longer going to support her and her OM.
She loses her nice home.
She loses daily access to her kids.
She is no longer the "Commanders Wife" but some woman who wants to stay with a loser.

And YOU in turn do the following:

Address her most important emotional needs. And if that is time with you, you give it to her. (by reducing the distance between you)
Conversation
Affection

Really, it's the only way.

Understand that the financial hit that you might endure, will be smaller than expected in the long run, and if your WW decides to go anyway? She gets such a big chunk, it doesn't matter. It IS cheaper to fight this than it is not too.

Just my .02

LG

BTW: I spent 4 years enlisted in the AF 1982-86, so I'm familar with the military world as well.

LG has provided you with the correct Rx. He has provided you with an avenue of choices but they all lead to the same conclusion.

"You cannot recover a marriage if you are not together."

Sell the house, move your wife so that you are able to work on the marriage.

How bad do you really want this to work?

Mr. G

Capitan
I was a WW, I am the wife of a professional soldier still.
maybe I could help with a bit of an insight into the WW world
My DH was the only serious BF I had. I wanted to be his wife from the time I was about 16 and soon as I turned 18 I was.
I gave little thought into the world I was entering, the demands it would place on myself and our M, and our relationship.
Right off we were posted .. yes WE ... 1000's of km's from all I knew, family, friends, everyone. It was HARD.
Shops were hours away, all was the base, the darn base.
Yes I did make friends slowly, not many, but a few. Then before I knew it i was having my first baby and my H was somewhere in the world doing whatever he was doing. That was lonely but I got through it. Did it cause resent ment? I guess it did in truth, small probably by itself not much to mention, Than by 20 with 2 small kids, living the same way I lived virtually as a single mum for most of each year for a few years. I can't say we were unhappy we weren't and I loved being a mum.
We got moved again, good years, then he transferred to the SAS and we moved back to our home city. I had my family, but hardly saw my DH. But it still wasn't too bad, I mean what time we had was great. I can't say it was totally fun all the time but it was ok. He was a soldier. we had 3 kids, then our little boy died & my world crumbled. My H wasn't there, I felt abandoned. lost. I think had the war not come the wounds would have been healed a lot quicker but who knows. He went to the war, I went out and had an affair. The A ended, my H got sent home to die. Thank God he didn't. I can't say my life got together by itself. My parents, my family and my H went through ****** to bring me back from that crap.
I cannot say my M just suddenly was fixed, it never is 'fixed' its something new. Not better, not worse, just different.
My DH is still a soldier, he's deployed now in fact in Afghanistan and we have a 2 yr old he's hardly had much time with. My older sons a soldier, my daughters husband to be gets back from Afghanistan next week. I didn't plan any of this, or really want it, I had my own hopes and dreams for myself and my kids, but I had felt that I gave those up back in my WW days. Of course they weren't 'mine' to give or take way were they? And you know, I am HAPPY. But back then, a few years ago I wasn't. I wanted out, I wanted MY dreams, my H had his, I wanted MINE.
I really didn't think of my H, or my kids, or anyone but ME. Entitlement is the key word here.

I have found my faith again, I found my husband, and just as important, he found ME again. If I asked him he would give it all up. He would be unhappy and I think lost a bit , but he would do it. I won't ever ask him, even if it means his life. It works for us. He is my hero you know, in ways perhaps no one can understand. A man for all seasons.
My regret is such a shallow word for what I feel.

There are no justifications or excuses for having an affair. Never accept there is. I have none, I shall never accept one.
You see the thinking that got me in trouble, it was all me me me. Mr in charge had had his fun I thought and I wanted 'my' life ..... when some serious event hit us I moved away from him not to him.
crazy now, but then... I wanted him to hurt as much as I did. The holes in our M were not caused by sledgehammers, but pinpricks. Over time, through years.

Please listen to RIF and some of the other long time people here who have been through your side of things. Many times you will have doubts about what MB recommends, you may think that if you expose for instance then your M is over etc. Its just a natural fear and though your WW may get angry & threaten all sorts, M can and do survive anger, Affairs on the other hand tend to wreck them.
In general you do need to make the affairees uncomfortable, make them WORK to contact each other if you can. Move your family 3 hours closer to you, if your wife comes well and good, but move the 'family' asap. The brutal reality is that Dv cost lots of money, moving your family & even contacting the Harley's, which I recommend you do as well, costs money, but far less. Do whatever it takes to disturb the affair as RIF and others have advised. IT WILL TAKE TIME. You may need to pull back on the deployment based on family issues if you can. Maybe even transfer right out of the state. Listen to the MB experts and please please consider the Harleys

Thanks AW!

God knows I truly believe that those on the home front have it harder than we do, in so many ways. All of a soldier's/sailor's/marine's basic needs are taken care of and the mission is often clear. At home the spouse has so many duties, responsibilities that have to do w/ being a single parent. My WW made it look so easy - almost to the point that I believed she preferred to be "in charge", and I abdicated ALL home decisions to her. Ironically, she truly believed that she was fighting me on so many decisions...hmmmmmm.



I think my WW also loves what I do and respects me so much for it. Her "enjoyment" of my being a commander's wife was limited...to her it was a tremendous burden because of the weight of the lie she was living.

Moving family to my next location where I will only be present 6-8 months out of the next 24 seems brutal to the kids. I am more willing to make the drive each and every day to sleep in my own bed and kiss them goodnight.

Again, dropping my letter now will almost certainly mean at least a year IA - defeating the purpose of doing a good plan A now. However, I will investigate the realities of that possible plan of action.

Am beginning to rally the troops around me and our marriage. What I'm telling the estranged friends, the ones she no longer returns calls to, is that they too can stop treading lightly and continue to call, this time, letting her know that they know and that they care for her AND our marriage.

Thanks to all your support and suggestions I've gotten past any concerns about this looking bad for ME. I'm the one doing the good work, I'm the one thinking for the family.

WW has complained that she doesn't want to be trapped in a "loveless" marriage... I have never been more full of love - a love that has changed, grown, and taken on such a new, fuller meaning. I have grown so much - too bad I took to this ripe old age to "get it".

Why don't we teach this stuff in school, on TV, in the movies? Instead we thrive on drama, intrigue, romance and illicit affairs rather than wholesome, healthy relationships.

...good Bob Dylan quote, by the way... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Capitan - How are you doing today?

I never exposed because I was too proud... and I feared that everyone would think that something was wrong with me... that I was a bad husband, that I was a wife beater, that I couldn't 'control' my W, that I couldn't satisfy her in bed...and on and on and on...

Glad to see that you've moved past this issue. You ARE fighting for your family and you ARE doing the work. The people that you expose the A to will know this as well.

Your W's A is NOT a reflection on you as a husband or a father... it is a reflection of HER decisions.

Expose as soon as you can and see if you can move your family to your home port... even if it means up-rooting the kids, at least you will put three hours between your W and the OM.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Doing OK today, thanks.

Biggest reason is that it's now the beginning of the week, the kids are both home, and so is WW. I'm not wondering what she's doing...

Had an interesting conversation w/ the ship's Catholic chaplain today. Not being Catholic (WW is - lapsed), I needed to understand his faith's take on the whole situation. What he told me about Contrition turned on a light bulb. I've told her before that I have yet to hear an apology that's worth a s#it, and I just realized that it's because she's said she's sorry i'm hurting, that this is hard, etc., but no apology for having an affair!

Also, guilt - to me it's something that's supposedd to KEEP you from doing hurtful things, not something you're supposed to carry around like a cross after you sin...

Chaplain made the great recommendation that the whole family go in for counseling together. He pointed out that most military families, by virture of our deployments, are dysfunctional in one way or another...so true.

plan of attack upon return:

1. expose
2. draw line - identify my boundaries to her - no contact
3. counseling for us
4. Plan B if she resists

Capitan:

First off Thank you to you and your family for your service. Second I am sorry you are going through this.

I am not a WW however I am a long time military wife. I am not in anyway condoning your wife's behavior.

You have done very well in your career and I am going to guess that has come at a great price to your family life. I imagine that many things have had to come before your wife. Including the men and women who you have working for you and with you. As a wife we are caught in a difficult position. We are very proud of the accomplishments our h have made in their careers, however we long for that same type of committment to us, our marriage and our kids. I came to realize awhile ago that I will never be a higher priority than my h career in the military. It hurts, it hurts a great deal however that is what I have had to come to accept and adjust to.

Military wives also find ourselves in a catch 22 position. We have to be strong, we have to carry on, we have to be in charge when you guys are gone and when you have such a heavy load to carry because of your jobs. We learn to carry it so we don't have to bother our h with things that are normally shared in a marriage. This is bad in ways that it gives our h the false belief that we don't need their help and therefor they let us carry on as is. When in reality that is not necessarily true. We want our h beside us helping us. I have wanted for years for my h to lead, however because of what he does that is not possible most of the time.

You talked about the retirement issue. Wow sounds like where we have been. My h did offer to retire, I also told him no. The reason was because I knew how important the military is to him and I believed that he would have held that against me. I wanted him so badly to make the decision himself. I often envy RIF and Mortman's wives as they made a very difficult decision and placed their wives ahead of them. What an amazing sacrifice for them to do. I do understand what you are saying about retirement money and not being able to get out. We also have done that. I cannot fault my h for that thinking because I know he is thinking about the financial security of us, however at what cost. You are in a difficult place, I understand.

As for your ww I can understand where she might be coming from. It is very lonely to be a military spouse. Even though we are very proud of our loved ones we are also very lonely. I am tired of living in my marriage by myself. That is how I feel. Therefor I know that I am in a position to have an affair myself, and I guard myself. I do not put myself in a position with any other male to fulfill the EN's that my h cannot fill because he is gone. Or because we had to cancel something or go do it without him because something came up that he has to take care of. So I keep myself out of those type of situations. Unfortunately your wife did not.

Also how do you talk about females that are under your command? How do you talk about your wife to other females or even other men in your command? I find it very hard when my h discusses other women and their accomplishments. It hurts because I don't hear him talk about me in this way. I'm just a SAHM while these other women have these important jobs, and get this recognition and help from my h. While I'm at home trying to make things work by myself. When I would love to have his help and encouragement.

Sometimes I feel like my h just comes home to play with us for awhile and then goes back to living his real life. Because when he is gone we are...............

When you are away do you send your wife flowers just because? When your home do you make time to just be with her or is something else always more important? How are you showing to her that she is the most important person in your life? Are you praying for her?

Try to read the book Love and Respect. It may give you some insight on things that you can do.

Again I am not making excuses for what your ww is doing. Just some insights in to how she can get to where she is without meaning too. I am not saying it is all your fault either, it's not. Just some thoughts from an old military wife who would love to know that I am important to him.

I pray that you are able to work this out with you ww. You are definitely in a difficult position. I just think that your ww is hurting and hurting a lot, that if she believed she was really important to you it may turn many things around.

BJS, thanks for your experiences and insight.

My WW would be the first to tell you that I've given her full responsibility for all my successes, both privately and publicly. This has not always been the case, however, and that's one of the things I would have done differently could I do this all over again.

Her apparent self-sufficiency didn't show me how much she still needed, and I was not fulfilling hardly any of her ENs. This changed about 4-5 years ago, when she had already emotionally "left", or so I found out recently. She followed the classic "walkaway wife" MO, staying in the marriage and giving me the impression everything was OK...not great, but OK.

I do not, nor have I ever, given her any reason to even think about females in my command. I've only given her the biggest positive strokes about the importance of family, her nurturing, her support, and how her job is so much more difficult than mine.

I know full well how we got here...I understand what happened. However, that doesn't make it "right".

She has never apologized for the affair, just for the hurt I'm feeling. The Catholic chaplain here likened that to an incident when he was a child in seminary school when he hit another boy. When he was hauled up to account for it, he was sorry the guy was hurt, sorry he got told on, sorry he was in trouble, sorry the kid had said things to make him mad, and was especially sorry he was standing in front of the headmaster. What he wasn't sorry for was hitting the guy. That's not contrition, and Jill's doing the same thing. She has yet to truly confess and apologize for the real hurt - the affair. From that true contrition would come penance, which she's avoiding completely.

Again, I understand all the reasons she did what she did...However, many others have faced such problems and chose, instead to work on the marriage, not to cheat and leave.

"If the grass is greener on the other side, it's time to water your lawn"

All true Capitan. Unfortunately, if you expect a WS to see this, to tell the truth, to live in reality...then you are mistaken. They are under the influence...and as such, will not respond as most normal people will. They will respond as a drunk does.

So, get off the idea of an apology. You will wait a long time for that...if you ever get it! What you are concentrating on is saving your marriage and your family. And that can be done without an apology!

Wow, is your Chaplain ever wise!!! This was and is my EX WW to a tee.......

Capitan
Your WW won't say she is sorry until she actually feels sorry, and its obvious she doesn't right now.
In her mind the M was all but over but in name, so she probably feels little remorse at this time, she doesn't recognise yet that it was simply wrong.

Just a little gentle 4x2 .. I doubt you really know the whole truth of how your WW feels and felt about your career Vs her and family. I doubt even she does more to the point.
Until you both attend a good MC one day .. sooner hopefully than otherwise ... then you will not realise how long and how deep the resentment goes.
And NO its no excuse
I was amazed at my own depth of resentment going back 20 yrs. And they usually were not the big things. More like not being there for a family BBQ, kids & parents greet the teacher days and the like. Oh there were the important ones like anniversaries, birthdays, the holidays I had to cancel with 2 hours notice and the like too but the seeming endless little things surprised me as well.
Of course what my MC got me to recognise was that HE also missed them. He just acted as if they didn't mean that much and I now know that wasn't true at all.

I would not be surprised at all if there isn't similar kind of things here.

Oh yes what was it they told him at the RM College .. "Never apologise Cadet, its a sign of weakness!!!" SIGH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Capitan:

No it is not an excuse and does not make what she did right.

I do agree with AW in that she may have thought the marriage was over. One thing being married to a military member is that we learn very quickly that we can make it on our own and be ok. We learn to live without though we prefer not to.

I also agree with the resentment. I used to resent my h career how it meant more to him. However it did not begin as resentment. It began as hurt, and missing him so much And as that hurt built up the resentment built up because as a military wife I could not express the hurt, because I had to be strong and support my h in his career. Also had to give the impression to others around us as to how strong of a wife I was. I also agree that my h never shows that anything that he misses with us bothers him. For the first time he is just now voicing his hurt at what he is going to miss this year.

( I've given her full responsibility for all my successes, both privately and publicly.)

However if your wife is anything like me I know that my h successes at work are his, not mine. I did not do the work he did. Yes I supported, however they are not my successes.

I am really not saying that your wife is right at all in any of this. I am saying that until she truly feels that she has your whole heart and that she really is more important to you above anything else,that it leaves her open to someone that may show her that. Not an excuse.

I may be wrong, there are much wiser people here than I. I pray that you recover your marriage.

AW, BJS, Wow...

Thank you for the glimpse inside my WW's head. I understand it all...rationally, and am trying to fully get a grip on what it must feel like. It's a given that it's no excuse, but still, pain is pain, hurt is hurt, and I would have done anything to known about it and made supreme efforts to ensure she felt nothing but love, understanding and sacrifice.

OBTW, my WW WAS so absolutely responsible for my successes in that, ironically, she's shown me how to be more attentive to the people side of the military. Any successes i've had as a leader stem directly from her guidance and counsel. she's an amazing person - with other people...

Thanks MM, bring it on w/ the 2x4s - that's one of the reasons I'm here...

Made "offer" to WW to drop letter tomorrow - she hit the roof! Went on and on about how this will make things difficult - said that I should have consulted her about such things that affect both her and our children...boy did that result in a volley. Perhaps i LB'd, but response pretty much was both barrels...

I pointed out that SHE is unilaterally deciding to end the marriage, that SHE unilaterally decided to have an affair, that SHE unilaterally is leading us down a path of financial hardship, that SHE is unilaterally responsible for our children's ultimately having to deal with the loss, etc., etc.

Wonder how that will play out.

My internet connection is EXTREMELY slow out here so browsing is very difficult...can anyone point me directly to any links here regarding what to do when/if WW files?

MM, re apology...no I don't expect one from her...perhaps not for a long time. It was just an epiphany I had about why her other "I'm sorry's" just didn't sound right. She has yet to take ANY responsibility.

Hey Capitan - sorry, I've been out of pocket for a couple of days on some missions...

So you told your W that you were willing to drop your retirment papers today?

If that is in fact what you did, are you prepared to do it? I ask this question because after reading what some of the wives have to say, and knowing what Mrs. RIF said, I still think that deep down, if your W were NOT involved with this OM, that she would jump up and down for joy if you told her this.

Based on your "broadside volleys" with each other, I'm guessing that her first thoughts are something along the lines of "oh no, now what am I going to do about the OM"...

You are the only one that can decide what is best for you and your family and I know that your career must be considered in all of this... but from where I sit, and from what you've shared with us, IMHO, I think that retiring immediately would be the best thing for your family.

Not an easy decision and one that only you can make. If you talked with your C of C and explained your family issues, do you think that they would consider reassigning you to shore duty? I know that the Army is trying very hard to accomodate families and will usually do what they can for them unless they're on deployment orders for Iraq or Afghanistan...

I don't know where the links are, but I do remember some of the threads saying that if you're deployed, that the courts can't do anything until the deployment ends, not sure how that works for sea duty though...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Yup..

In her reply, she said "You staying in or getting out doesn't change a thing as far as "we" are
concerned. I have been very clear as to what I want on that front... If we were staying married, your getting out would not even be a consideration; it would just be dumb, at this point." Hmmm...FWWs, what do you make of that?

Again, reality of where I am, I would spend as much time away IA if I dropped my letter and

Hi Capitan,

Could it be that she's counting on your retirement money for "after the divorce" and wants you to earn as much as possible?

If she's already gotten this in her head that she's going to divorce, then I'll say it again... I think that you need to let your C of C (or a trusted mentor that's not in yur C of C)know about your family situation and request that you be allowed to retire immediately...

Has your W filed for D yet? If she hasn't, I'll bet that she's just stalling so she can continue with the OM, all the while, you're building up a larger retirement paycheck.

You can't fight effectively for your family as long as you are separated from them.

If they won't let you retire, then you run a risk of "exposing" a weakness to your C of C and they might take you out of your command billet.... so I was wondering if you have a trusted mentor that you can discuss this with? One that isn't in your C of C? It would be good to get a second or even third opinion of your situation.

I don't think that your situation is hopeless, and I don't think that you're heading for a divorce... I think that your W is lonely, she's probably frustrated at "not having a life/career" because she's been supporting your military career, and for the first time, she's "found" someone that makes her feel "special"... She's not thinking in a rational way and all that she can see is "what's in it for her" right now.

You need to be there to help end the A with this OM, and then give her the undivided attention that she most likely craves. Even when you're at home, as long as you're in the military, you are either deployed, or getting ready to deploy... which for our wives, is just as painful and lonely as when we're away.

I personnaly know how I am right before a deployment.. I'm focussed on the upcoming mission! I'm not paying as much attention to Mrs. RIF and my 3 girls...

Over the course of a 20+ year career, I think that our families either get used to it and deal with it in a positive way..., or they get bitter and resentfull.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Poor connection out here...my replies aren't always posted...

Yup, she's "banking" on the money, as am I. She has a point, either way, the money is an issue - ESPECIALLY if we're divorced...damned if you do, damned if you dont.

Reality of situation is if I drop letter, I will still end up spending significant time away...realities of the "global war on terror". The biggest difference is that after that time away, I will be looking for a new job, rather than on shore duty and able to pick up whatever pieces are left. Just getting out not an option.

THose who have been reading my posts are probably noticing that my plan A has been inconsistent, and pretty broken up by the realities of deployment. It makes it tough. My plan is to focus on a concerted plan A over the next period leading up to next at-sea period (6 months or so), then go to plan B - aided by natural separation.

The reality of her situation w/ OM is that he's not so much making her feel "special" anymore, I think he's just become more of a destructive habit... trying to fight off looking too far ahead and come to conclusion that she's not worth the effort... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey Capitan - That feeling is just a feeling... it will pass. You are in a fight for your M and it's natural to have doubts. Don't dwell on these negative thoughts when the come up... focus on the postitive actions that you're doing and focus on your kids... they are what you are fighing for.

Your W is in the fog now and will say all sorts of mean, hurtful things... don't take them to heart, just keep focusing on your goal here.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF...staying the course. It's just not natural to NOT listen to what your "Life Partner" says and feels...

Hey Capitan - This is hard stuff... but you can do it.

Semper Fi,

RIF

All, sorry for jumping around on different threads...will keep it all on this original thread from now on.

(for details on exposure to kids, go to "just told the kids")

Here's the latest:

After my reassertion of my "right" to sleep in my own bed last week, WW is on a rampage and her emotions are all over the map. She went from "we're filing this week", to "That's it, I've got to get a place of my own where I can go when you're home on the weekends" (background - new job puts me about 2 1/2 hours away and I'll be able to be home on weekends and perhaps a night mid-week).

Is this a move firmly into the conflict stage from withdrawl? Perhaps...

WW agreed to see family counselor, primarily in order to get the kids whatever support THEY need to get through these "changes". Appt is next week.

I had a "debrief" with our former MC and told her that in retrospect I thought it wasn't "marriage" counseling - she wholeheartedly agreed. I told her that WW couldn't possibly engage in any kind of recovery while still in contact - she agreed. In looking back, it's clear that she helped ME, but until and unless WW broke contact - which WW was NOT interested in doing at the time, there was no "marriage" in that counseling. I can have no idea waht WW told MC or MC said to WW in IC, so who knows...

Which brings up an interesting philosophical point - you can't "force" someone to "try"... However, I told WW that I find it interesting how she insisted she "tried" for so long. I asked for details and she fails to provide them. I then ask why it is she can give me chapter and verse of any transgression of mine over the last 10 years and she can do so w/ uncanny accuracy. How is it that the details of her "trying" to save our marriage elude her?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She's put more "effort" into destroying the marriage than saving it.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Trying to stay the course...I can't help but feel like the "bad guy" for kicking her out of "her" bedroom. Can you believe it??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, she left the house for the weekend, and based on how dejected and lost she looked, I got the distinct impression she's NOT with OM, and I even get the impression that it's not even an option...hmmmmmmm - trouble in paradise? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

She hit me with an extremely strong plea/threat to NOT tell her family, and I can't say I don't disagree at this point. Background - mother-alcoholic, father-passed away, uncles-not particularly close, brother-overseas and not particularly close. I'm under the impression that the reason to expose is to do so to people who are in a position to either support or help. Exposing to her somewhat dysfunctional family will ultimately do more harm than good, for either her, me or the marriage.

She told me something I didn't know...when she was leaving her first husband, who was physically abusive, her family basically told her that it was HER fault, and that she should just go back to him... Holy S#it! How's that for being supportive?! Armed with that info I had the epiphany that she's probably not calling the friends I've told because she'd be treating their "judgment" of her in the same way, that they'd be trying to tell her to go back to her "abusive" husband - me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> not something she'd be particularly open to...

Just to clear the air, NO, I was NEVER, in ANY WAY physically abusive, but she claims "emotional abuse"...something that is in the eye of the beholder - she believes it to be true, therefore it is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Our friends have seen both sides of our "loving dynamic" over the years, and I'm under no delusion that I was not a jerk at times...it's a ****** not being "perfect"...oh, to be able to know then what I know now...

Anyway, looking on the bright spot of this last week - kids SO MUCH MORE at ease and clear now. They are EMPOWERED, and as much as anyone in this situation can be, in CONTROL. They are wonderful and my heart bleeds to think that WW is endangering HER relationship with them in this way. I told her that she deserves the respect she will get from them by admitting that what she's doing is wrong, rather than stonewalling and justification...

God it is so hard to keep my anger at WW at bay...I understand now, more than ever, why Dr Harley suggests time limit to Plan A...

Capitan out...

Hey Capitan!

Thanks for the update... It is very frustrating. Mrs. RIF accused me of being "controlling" and "mentally abusive" during or very first MC session and said that was the "reason" that she had all of her A's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like your W is still fogged out and is willing to do what ever she can to "escape" facing the facts that she's gotten in such a mess.

Stay strong and be the ligh-house for her and guide her back to the M. She's going to say all sorts of mean, nasty, hurtfull things before it's all said and done. Remember, she's in 'survival' mode and is trying to 'protect' the good feelings that she got from the A.

I agree with you about considering her family dynamics before you expose... others may dissagree, but if her family can't provide help and support in ending contact, then it's probably best if you don't expose to them.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Re-reading SAA for first time in over a year... there's so much I didn't get the first time around...now that my own BS fog has parted.

Biggest "ah ha" moment came as I realized I'd still fallen prey to her "alternate reality", and how I've still felt compelled to "make sense" of her reactions/statements/decisions, etc. The story of Jon, Sue and Greg has SO many parallels it's scary.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I can see that one of my biggest failings in my "plan A" was my lack of patience. I need to let time work on my side. Make a move, make some Love Bank deposits - wait! Rather than do what I've been doing, and that's pretty much everything at once and expect immediate results... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Had a long talk w/ one of my sisters. She'd gone through a similar situation w/ the man she'd been living w/ for 10 years. We talked about coping techniques. Every morning when she woke up, her wayward sig other dove in w/ "reasons" why everything was her fault and she had been thrown into incredible self doubt whenever she was living in "his" reality. She went and swam lap after lap in the local pool and was able to find peace. I might try to do same - something, anything to try to give me an island of peace and tranquility in this s#itstorm.

I think today will be a nice day. WS will be "coming home" from her "time away" which was spent in a nearby hotel, not OM's place, or his mom's... She misses kids...just like "Sue" in SAA...

Diving back into chapter 5...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Capitan,



BINGO! This was VERY hard for me when Mrs. RIF and I started rebuilding... I'm used to giving orders and having them carried out to the letter immediately! Must be something about being in the military... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I think you're tracking very well here... keep reading and let us know if you have any specific questions that we can help you with.

Semper Fi,

RIF

bump with new thread name and poll at bottom...

Hi Capitan

I'm sorry to see your situation. Great that you have RIF, Mortarman and Aussieswife helping you though. Talk about "been there, done that" !

I can't add much to their great advice regarding marrigebuilding while deployed - I can hardly imagine what that must be like - but I can perhaps share some experience with you regarding "plan A".

You said


This is very wise. See, i worked out that WS deliberately obscure their point of focus in their emotional and intellectual vision, but their PERIPHERAL vision is uncorrupted.

"what ya mean Bob?"

Well, in order to drown out ther screaming conscience, WS can rewrite history in a way that "justifies" their affair based on the totally miserable time their BS caused them every moment of their previous marriage. :rolleyes

So they apply a deliberate "filter" in their perception that sets severything regarding the BS, the marriage and their actions in the context of this re-written history.

You do a nice thing for her, you're sucking up, its too little too late, you won't keep it up etc.
You mention a great experience from your married life, she yells "yeah well that was one of the few times you were HERE", recalls she ate a bad egg and went toilet for three hours or trod in some dog poop in new shoes as you saw the Grand Canyon.... Whatever.

You get my drift.

So when you try to PLAN A in her face very intensively, almost nothing get sthrough the "history rewrite" filter.

how-ev-er...

* If you PERSISTENTLY and quietly invest in her and your marriage
* Meet ENs without fuss
* Take responsibility for stuff in your marriage you could have done better without making a big deal of it
* set and police personal boundaries without making them demands
* studiously avoid lovebusters, and dodge fog babble

A strange thing happens....it creates a CULTURE of non judgmentalism, love and investment that sneaks past the filter. Her heart starts to trust your efforts even though he rmind , obscured by her filter, may not yet.

I know this from my own situation, and from many others I have seen via these boards.

You make these behaviours a default part of your personality, not "gestures". You adhere to them whether your Ws response is positive or negative. YOU JUST do IT BECAUSE ITS you - the YOU she'd be throwing away if she divorced you.

See ?

I ma not sure howmuch time you ar eable to spend online or with your WW right now, Capitan, but in the time you DO have, do this.

Lock up your taker - it won't get any sugar for a while yet, so lock it up or distract it
Stow your indignation
Practice loving detachment when she does hurtful things

And see how it goes. If theres no great change in your WW after four months of a GOOD plan A there is unlikely to be, so planB is then in order.

Oh, and EXPOSE. Find somebody in OMs and your WWs life whose opinion of them they value and expose to them. They'll be mad, but theres nothing like Mom turning on the light to stop a game of doctors and nurses <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All blessings !

And in case it helps, heres a link to a bunch of stuff I bundled to help folks - it includes a description of loving detachment

Click here for toolkit

Sage advice Bob...



Again, more of the same...

My situation a little unsettled right now, but charting a steady course imperitive...it takes a firm hand on the helm, and I've been finding myself searching erratically for "better winds" rather than sticking to one plan.

Yours, and others calm and firm guidance is a godsend - thanks.

Might be shifting to a plan B in the near future. Our MC/IC has just read SAA (I gave it to them as "homework" - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and we agree (in IC) that my plan A pretty much sucked... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

More later, but thanks Bob... BTW, I was born in your fair country... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />