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Shaden #1935670 09/08/07 09:02 AM
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... should I add in a formal separation agreement?

how about Mr. W's idea of moving into "my" condo since I signed for the property as well.

I would go over the formal seperation and get visitation all set up and in place before you go into Plan B. That way, you won't have to break no contact to clear up any misunderstandings. Better to have that all in place first.

I am not clear on the condo situation? What is the situation with that? She lives in a condo you bought and you live where? Who has primary custody?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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We sold our house.

She picked out a condo and we both signed for it...(very naive)... she couldn't afford it on her own. At that point, I had a lot of hope... just stupid.

I am in an apartment about 2 blocks from the condo.

No separation agreement.

the boys stay with her primarily, but we had open agreement... anytime I wanted them or they wanted to be with me.

In fact, until Monday, when I found out about new OM, I was there practically every night or together with them. The only thing lacking was open communication and sleeping together... although that even happened a couple of times during the separation.

I had no clue that she was still in the place in her mind that she is. I thought she had learned her lesson, but still was trying to sort out her own beliefs and feelings on her life and happiness. It takes me a while to figure it out sometimes, LOL.

Regularly she told me she missed me, loved me, hugged and kissed me, we talked about going on a cruise as a family... etc, etc.. She would invite me over for dinner.

She did not commit to getting back together and would not discuss that... I was not pushing it for one more month, our original agreement was 3 months separated. But hopefully it is evident how I could have been mislead about where she was at.

The only clue was that she was different around me when her family was there. They did invite me over, earlier in the separation for a family get-together... even one time went when she was working. But lately, there was nothing. She avoided having me around if she could when her family was there. So that tells me she was telling them one thing and me another. She had a whole lot of cake on her table... and enjoying every last bite.

This is tough. I do miss her already... even with how I feel about her and her behavior. That shows me I still have a lot of work to do on myself.

I think I should stop the snooping. The snooping will hurt me now, even though I am not seeing anything anymore, because it is obsessive and leaves me focused on her rather than moving forward.

The hardest part is wanting to move forward, but also wanting to have my family back at the same time. I feel torn.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935672 09/08/07 01:08 PM
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I guess having my family back is moving forward. I cannot go back to the way we were... so the only way she will have me back is if we move forward.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935673 09/10/07 06:37 AM
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Ok...please remind me again why it was a good idea to expose to my sons.

I am being laid out as a terrible Dad because I would bring the kids into the middle of it. "It doesn't matter what the adults have done, the kids should not have to be exposed".

I know this is all defensive and fog talk... but I still feel crappy. All of her allies are against me on this one... even if I had a chance to get support against the affair, they see me as being wrong now.

My W said she will never forgive me for telling them. I know it's babble. but...

My son did tell me yesterday that he was glad he knew. before knowing he had so many questions that were not answered. now he can understand why we are separating.

I just said that I hope he still loves his Mom.. he said yes... that they are close and always will love her.

shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935674 09/10/07 07:12 AM
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My WW said to me last night that she couldn't think of anything more despicable than me using the kids to hurt her. I said what is despicable is WW with OM1, WW with OM2, WW with OM3, and now WW with OM4.

I am trying again to remind myself why I am not filing for divorce.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935675 09/10/07 07:22 AM
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Couple of thoughts.

One, you are right to tell your children the truth. What hurts your children is the reality of consequences not knowing WHY they are having to accept the loss.

The only thing offended here is your wifes PRIDE and EGO.

She does not want to accept responsibility for choosing to hurt her children in order to please her lust.



Two, you have often been a very "grey" thinker in the past and it looks like you have been surrounded by other grey thinkers.

The grey thinkers are never going to support you taking any action that results in "discomfort" for themselves.

No amount of explanation will pursuade them.

They much prefer to tell the children [the people who have NO choice] to suck up their loss and smile...that they are wrong to feel anger, loss, and to ask questions like...why do we have to do this? The answer to that question is that they don't HAVE to do this...she WANTS to do this and she doesn't care what they want or what is good for them.

Grey thinkers are NEVER going to support the belief that a person is bound to do what they no longer FEEL like doing.

If you want to find support for black and white concepts you are going to have to find a new social niche.



Three...

You have been badly used with your cooperation. This is weakness and uncertainty and not much else.

They LIKE you to be weak. They LIKE you to be used.

When you are no longer available to be weak or used they will no longer like you.

I'm sorry but that's the way it goes. You aren't playing the game by their rules anymore and they'd rather kick the table over and stomp off than respect your change of heart.

Your children knowing the truth about their lives will bring some uncomfortable questions into play and may even ask them to do what they do not feel like doing.

Grey thinkers believe that if you can conceal the sickness you can negotiate the consequences.

Not true...man does not have power over consequences...only over choices.

Stand in defiance of God at your own peril, yes?


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935676 09/10/07 07:35 AM
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Thank you, Noodle.

Exactly the kind of response I was hoping for... a challenge.

I do know that I did the right thing. It just hurts to see the kids hurting. My WW told me my son cried all night and the next day after I told them. I know that my son was not crying because I told him, but because of what my WW has done... and she doesn't like that. But I still don't like the hurt he is going through... and my telling him helped it hit home.

Most people who stand up for what is right will often get punished for it... but you are correct. I must stand up against adultery... which is why I sent the email to BIL.

My W says that "I" did irreperable damage by sending that email. Doesn't anyone see that the adultery is doing the damage???

I am holding on with fingertips to black and white...sometimes it's difficult to hold on when you're used to compromising grey colours. I will continue to hold on.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935677 09/10/07 07:39 AM
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Shaden,

Your child is in conflict now because perhaps he does see that it's a CHOICE. That someone is hurting him by CHOICE. Of course that is upsetting. Someone that he loves and trusts is choosing to be selfish when she should be choosing to love him. Ouch.

I bet you dollars to doughnuts that it was present as something that he HAD to accept...an event that MUST occur and because of that he has been in survival mode just trying to acclimate.

This is how children are corrupted...their perception is deliberately skewed so that they do not create CONFLICT by reacting in a way that creates guilt or other unpleasant emotion in the guilty party.

As long as that kid is smiling while "surviving" she is free to pretend that she has escaped consequences.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935678 09/10/07 07:43 AM
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You did a good thing for your son Shaden by allowing him to "see" the truth and to experience integrity between his perceptions and the reality of the situation.

It's very WEIRD to see someone go through an upsetting event with a smile in their face...right?

So much so that we think..golly...what's WRONG with them? Why aren't they reacting to whats going on around them?

That's very close to what your ww and her friends/family are doing to your son...sort of deliberate crazymaking via skewed reality.

Your son would be sad to lose his mother because she died..not because she died of cancer.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935679 09/10/07 07:49 AM
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Or another comparison...

Imagine that your wife ran away from home to fullfillher lifelong dream of being a deadbeat parent.

To save your child the heartbreak of abandonment you told him his mother died..no help for it....she died and wouldn't have left if she could help it.

Ten years later he runs into her on the street.

Now what?

Sooner or later the truth will out. Something will collide with his false beliefs as surely as they collided with yours.

When that happens how can he trust you who decieved him?

Always look to the future because you plant seeds every day.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935680 09/10/07 07:52 AM
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Nothing will make your ww more angry than your assertion

"I have been honest and I have been faithfull"

She has been dishonest and unfaithfull.

This places her in stark contrast and exposes her shamefull behavior.

She comes out looking bad when the truth is exposed Shaden.

That is why she doesn't want it done.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935681 09/10/07 07:53 AM
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Is that helping any?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935682 09/10/07 07:57 AM
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My 12 yr old is funny. Last night when he was talking about being glad that he now has some answers... we discussed for a couple of minutes... and then I said that we shouldn't be talking about it anymore unless he has questions. I said let's change the subject.

Then I kept going and said... "I just want you to know that I have faith in God that everything is going to turn out allright for us" He just said... why are you talking about faith in God... I thought we were changing the subject. LOL

My 12 yr. old is the one talking and crying. It is my 10 yr.old that I am more worried about. He doesn't talk about what's going on in his head.

He is the one who throughout separation would ensure that his hugs and kisses were equal and tried to make sure neither of us were alone. If older son was with one parent then he would go with the other.

You are right about the fact they are not used to me standing up for myself... and it is generally easy to guilt and force me down. I made it easy because I always second-guessed myself. Thank you for reminding me that the main point here is that even though I might make some mistakes, I am standing up for what is right and for myself. That makes them uncomfortable and that is too bad for them.

I know that it is not recommended to solicit help from WW's family members. But I am considering calling her Aunt who is a very respected and loved minister high up in her church. I'm not sure if she is in Toronto or England right now. I know that WW Mom and her are close. The aunt had said that if WW left me, I would be snatched up pretty quick by someone else.

I'm wondering if she would be one who would also confront what is wrong... I know she is that type of person. She even resigned from her position because she felt a strong conflict within the church... and this was huge, because she was considered a favorite to eventually become the head of our church in the World before she retired. She has since been re-instated (but probably lost any chance of becoming the leader).

My reason for doing this is to talk some sense into WW's mom. I doubt she knows the whole truth about WW. WW was denying that there was anything going on to me last night... so I'm sure she is telling everyone else the same thing.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935683 09/10/07 07:58 AM
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Yes, Noodle.

It has helped a lot.

thanks.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935684 09/10/07 08:01 AM
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How far do I take it...

Do I show the boys the proof so they will know... or let them find out anymore on their own.

Should I send proof to her family so they will know she is lying to everyone?

Or have I done my part?


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935685 09/10/07 08:06 AM
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I probably did a stupid thing last night at the end of my conversation with WW.

After she was denying everything and telling me I had misread everything and I was wrecking any chance we had being friends. I said to her, "by the way, you can change the password on your facebook... it is too hurtful to read... (I won't give the details here) about what you want to do to him."

She has changed the password, so I have lost my way of spying. But I have enough proof to show it wasn't just a friendship... and looking at all of that was too hurtful. I was obsessing again and I don't need to see it. It doesn't change anything at this point. I will be going dark very soon... after we have met about the arrangements.

What it did do, though, is make her very uncomfortable knowing that I do know the truth.

Still.... it was probably a mistake. I can't change it now.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935686 09/10/07 08:07 AM
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She did tell me last night... that she does love me. When I asked how it go a week ago from "I love you and I miss you" to this.

probably still just trying to bring me back in line.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935687 09/10/07 08:15 AM
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Welll here is the thing about trying to pursuade family members.

The ENTIRE issue for them is really about obediance to God even when it really...really makes you uncomfortable.

I'm not climbing on my high horse to pretend that I have my life at all times in all ways under discipline...but I will tell you that the areas which I have yet to conquer are the areas I am most vulnerable to deception and wrong thinking.

See, once I am able to stop struggling for control [with..oh let's see..the alpha and omega..ultimate creator...deity powerfull beyond space and time..yeah..nice fight I'm putting up huh? Maybe a few more push ups you think?] and accept that GOD determines right and wrong [and that there IS a right and a wrong]..not me...it becomes very EASY to make most decisions.

In your case..adultery is WRONG.

Poof. Period.

There is no excuse, no explanation, no list of reasons...literally NOTHING can change that verdict.

Your wife is in sin and her sin affects more than herself.

People have to decide whether they will obey God and call it sin...or obey their flesh and make excuse for someone they don't want to make angry or sad by saying "no".

That is the primary struggle Shaden...for them.

Either they aren't christians at all..in which case there is no question they will follow their flesh.

Or they are but they are in defiance...in which case you expose that and leave the discipline to God...he is more than capable.

So my advice is stand behind God and let him fight the good fight.

You tell your children that although you are hurt by her behavior...you believe that God created marriage to be a permanent relationship and that you hope ww will repent and turn from her adultery.

You tell the truth and let God do the rest.

He can convict and stir the heart beyond anything you could ever create under any circumstances.

Don't be afraid of their anger ...even if it is with you.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935688 09/10/07 08:23 AM
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My older SIL has emailed me a couple of times. She is angry and confused. She is almost willing to talk to me to get my side... I have been telling her that I just want to help her sister... even if my marriage does not last.

This sister is the one that has always respected me, and there is a chance with her that she will believe me.

She emailed this morning saying her Mom feels she doesn't have all the story as well. She thinks that if her Mom did, she would speak out against it... which is why she is being kept in the dark by my WW.

I will let God do the fighting, but if he gives me the opportunity to talk to SIL, then I will take it.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
noodle #1935689 09/10/07 08:26 AM
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I'm terribly prone to indecision and rationalization as well.

Since we are both christians I can share with you that in my belief it really all boils down to one question.

Will you obey God on this issue or will you not?

How is that for black and white?

Once you can say "yes" to that question the churning and the swirling and the attempts to control every variable and find the perfect answer stops [or at least gets much quieter].

The perfect answer may not FEEL perfect.

It might hurt or make people angry.

It might make conflict in your life.

The perfect answer is only perfect because it is done in obediance and lets go of the outcomes in favor of faith.

It is SCARY to get out of the boat Shaden...but I think it's scary trying to hold back the waves yourself as well because somewhere inside you have the despairing knowledge that there is NO WAY you are big enough for the job.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
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