Hi guys.

It's been many months since I've been here. Mr. W., I see that you are still around giving out fantastic advice and Pep and Melodylane.

Unfortunately, I am here looking for advice on Plan B. Any pros want in?

shaden

Hey Shaden! I was thinking of you recently, how goes it?

What up dog.

Is it still snowing up there in the Great White North?

You may want to clarify your call out for Plan B experts. I'm assuming the affair is still LONG over but you still have not seen any or should I say meaningful reconciliation efforts from your wife.

This would be a recovery Plan B, correct???

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - time for some black or white...living in limbo (the grey area) just ain't cuttin' it.

I guess I should give a short update...

For those that remember, my W had an A now a couple of years ago. This was over.... we were working on the M... the progress stalled. I set boundaries... she said she couldn't meet them... we agreed to separate.

We have been separated for 2 months now. I thought things were going great. We were still very good friends... doing a lot of family stuff with our 2 sons. She would invite for me dinner, visited our campsite when I went with the boys, took a roadtrip that ended up overnight because of car trouble... even a couple of times of SF. She would tell me she misses me, and loves me. I didn't push relationship talk very much... we had a plan to go 3 months and then see where we were.

This past weekend (the same weekend of our little overnight trip away with the kids), she connected up with an old friend on facebook. This friend, actually 2 friends... they are twins and so is my W... hadn't been in contact with her since she was 7... they were about 10 years older than her. I knew she had talked to one of them on the phone for 2 hours... I was ok... figured it was all just catching up.

Had a bad vibe and went snooping. Found messages back and forth which were very flirtatious, mentioned that she couldn't wake to get back from (our road trip) to talk to him again, and she was discussing marriage with the one who is divorced. After a few emails and one conversation... she has found her long lost love from when she was 7. She quotes that her Mom says she hadn't sounded happier than she did after her 2 hour phone conversation.

My W's sister is also talking to the other one... about her own marriage problems. The two of them are feeding off each other.

I flipped and said I want a divorce... the first time those words came out of my mouth.

Since then... a couple of sleepless nights.... I have decided that I need to go to Plan B... which never happened with us before. This step should happen before I say I make it permanent... for a few reasons which I won't get into now.

Ok... now waiting for questions, 2x4s, incredulous statements, and laughter at my naivette... anything that will help... or even if it doesn't help, it will give me something to do when I can't sleep.

Shaden

Hey Mr. W.

Had a great summer up here... even camping was awesome... hardly any mosquitos... generally they are the size of crows in my neck of the woods. I guess the West Nile has had some positive affect... the government is spraying more.

As for my sich... I just updated a little. You are correct about the black and white. My so-called separation was hardly showing her what life would be like without me. I was helping out to set up her new place, I put my name on her condo... she couldn't afford it without me, I basically was allowing myself to be a doormat still. A tougher doormat than 2 years ago, but still a doormat.

I am ready for black... go dark... except for scheduling or problems around the kids.

How's Mrs. W?

Still finding time to help out with her quick wit and QUIET charm?

Shaden

So you are in the marital home with the kids??? Seems maybe you sold the house a ways back. Maybe you need to move back in to YOUR condo.

Are the kids firmly in your camp???

Is there a separation agreement in place???

Is winning custody and protecting your children from mom's poor decision making abilities and foggy thinking a priority to you??? Why not???

Mr. W

The government should spend more time spraying your wife for OM's.

I think you've already got your answer...you knew it all along.

Plan B like a BIG DAWG!!!

Hi Mel,

Except for the whole new internet A that my W is having, things are going great. Work is extremely busy and challenging. My sons are fantastic. I don't have to clean up after my 2 dogs... my W has them at the condo. And I have connected with a couple of friends I used to hang out with from years ago. One old friend I found out is living in South Korea... I had no idea.

Oops... my W just left a message on my cell phone. I haven't talked to her since yesterday... the longest we have gone in a long time. Probably just seeing if I needed to take the boys so that she has some time to phone her new friend. I won't be calling back right now, though.

How are you doing? It's great to see you still on here. You got me going sometimes with your Non-Canadian style... but you (almost) always made sense.

thanks for showing up.

shaden

Hey Shaden, I wonder what Dr.Harley would say about your situation? See, the point of Plan B is to protect you from THE AFFAIR. Your situation is a little different in that your main issue is not necessarily an affair, but a lack of commitment from your wife. I would be interested to see what his take on all this is. Did you know you can call and email him for free on his radio show?

Is your wife paying all her own bills?

Also, you can go black as night in Plan B, even with kids. Some here have done it with a little pre-planning, etc.

"The goverment should spend more time spraying your wife for OM's. "

They probably have the technology to do this... but someone out there is making a tonne of money off of A's (not just the marriage counsellors), so it is being kept off the market.

Shaden

Shaden, do you know what MrW said to me today?? It is the funniest thing a yankee has ever said to me! Ark said in Texas all they need to hang someone is a noose, a tree and a........... horse!

MrW, that silly yankee says "whats the horse for???"

BWAHAHAHAHAAA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am giving him an AWARD for dat! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mel...

I hear what your saying. I was thinking about getting in touch with the Dr. I have been plan Aing my xxx off for the past 2 years. You are correct about the commitment issues. I met with pastors today to discuss (she is a trained counsellor as well). My W's history is against her. She definitely is in need of something... the same as her Mom. My W just doesn't know what she's got.

As to the bills. We have most of it separated. I am working to finish the rest. We were just paying off bills from the sale of the house... the money just came in a couple of weeks ago. I was about to consolidate the remaining loans with her new loan that she got right after she moved out.... a 7 year loan on a 2005 Ford Escape. She is in way over her head with her budgets. I wonder if the new guy has money. Good thing I didn't go through with it. I'm calling for financil advice with the separation today.

Shaden

p.s. I am just IN AWE and SO PROUD that you seperated, Shaden!! You have come a very long way from the guy who just wanted to keep the peace at any cost. WOW! Way to MAN UP! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"WOW! Way to MAN UP!"

I'm learning... slowly... but still going in the right direction.

I have my moments, but I have a lot less fear... and probably a whole lot less to lose.

If my choice was just about her right now, it would be an easy one... I would be getting a divorce as quick as possible. My choice is about the kids, and about the person I want to be... to know that I did everything possible "for better or for worse" before giving up. I don't see giving up as giving up on her or us... but giving up on God... who I am testing with my faith.

Shaden

"whats the horse for???"

Mr W... were you serious??? Not one of your better moments...?

Ok... I'll admit it... I had to read it twice before it hit.

Shaden

Of course I've seen the movies where they hang a guy off a horse; however, I am also aware that that won't work in Texas. Texas is devoid of trees. Thus, I was left to presume the Texan's must require a horse for the after-execution BBQ dinner of Horseburger. I'm guessing they also eat pickled horsefeet...the sicko's.

Sheesh...do I have to explain everything.

Mr. Wondering

You overdid the hoochieweed today, didn't ya??? JUST ADMIT IT to Mel!! SHE KNOWS!! SHE KNOWS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

No trees, indeed! GOOD GRIEF!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure there were trees on the show Dallas... or was that filmed in Vancouver?

You know there's a sport in Texas called "Yankee Tree'd". You just hop on your horse, spot yourself a yankee and chase him up a tree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Even the silly foreigner knows there are trees in Texas!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I like dat sport!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Meg, ya see any trees out yore way??

Tumbleweeds DO NOT constitute TREES.

I repeat

Tumbleweeds DO NOT constitute TREES.

W

I have occasionally lived in Texas.

It seems to depend on the area you are working from.

Some places you hang 'em from a tree and let the horse unseat them.

Some places you just use the tree.

Some places you can't find a tree so you just go ahead and tie them to the horse...who after a few good licks will get the job done..ya know..eventually.

Some places you don't need a horse or a tree and just let the 'gators get 'em.

In any case there is a distinct lack of loose ends.

Hmm. I thought they tied the other end of the noose to the horse and gave the horse a giddy-up thus dragging the perp to death.

go figure.

Shaden: Any chance of you actually deciding to go ALL IN and do this the MB way properly without modification?

That was option 4 ...see above.

Modified plan B gets you modified recovery which is sometimes referred to as "false".

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh Sorry Noodle - I missed option 4. LOL.

Give me the rundown on "all in"

I think so. Going dark is no problem... as long as it doesn't affect my kids.

I need to think some more on exposure... I don't have very much to go on... but am willing. I'm not against the exposure... just done that without any positive affects. The guy is divorced. My W's family already know and support her, I think. They certainly won't go against her... they didn't the last time... because their moral compass is just as whacked... for all their talk of Christianity and the Lord will look after them. I am a Christian... so I'm not putting down Christianity... just those who use it to sound good and to their advantage.

My W talks to others and says she is trusting in the Lord to bring her through this... but does not do anything (except stay for awhile in guilt) to repair the marriage that she has.

My other option is divorce... so I'm game.

However... there are some things that I need to think about on my own to ensure that I feel comfortable that I am not lowering my own integrity.

When I confronted my W about the new guy, she was just angry that I was snooping again... so was her sister. How could I possibly break her trust in this way and invade her privacy??? LOL Snooping is not below my integrity if it is to protect my family. In the past, I have argued against it... not now. However, snooping does hurt me as well... and it brings on anxiety and sleepless nights, so I will have to put a limit on it.

I don't think my W will respond to the hard tactics of Plan B... but right now I am doing this first for me and my sons... with her I have nothing to lose. She certainly didn't respond to the softer tactics.

Okay... I've convinced myself as I've talked. What do you suggest?

Shaden

Exposure to your children for a start Shaden.
Dark Plan B.

You are already separated. You are heading for a divorce if you do nothing. The fact she wants contact with you still indicated you ARE meeting EN's and she WILL be affected by a dark Plan B.

Frankly, you have confirmed the new OM so no need for snooping. Plan B will take you OUT of the drama. Snooping only keeps you in it.

At some point you divorce OR she will want to prove to you that NC is in place and she wants your marriage.

ALL IN ALSO means not settling for crumbs.

She is NOT a good mother Shaden when she is running off or wanting to run off and marry OM. The addiction dictates she will put her affair above her children. ALL WS's do this. It's part of what they are.

You are almost 2 years into this mate and almost the same or worse situation. The Harley way can work for you if you let it and overcome your fears.

OK... I want everyone's input on exposure to the kids.

Is there a possibility of damaging them more than they are being damaged by divorce. (So many have told my W that they have been through a divorce and the kids have come out fine... even better). I am not talking about their relationship with their mother... I am talking about their well-being.

If this happens... when is the best time? After I have all other matters in place (financial, etc.) I also need to find out about custody... and what happens if she refuses to let me see them after I expose. What are my rights.

This will get down right messy... I'm good with that. But I need to know the boys will be fine.

Shaden

Shaden:

Welcome Back!

What's Next? Heartsore?

But Plan B?

Sounds like it is time.

She obviously used this trial seperation to start making other plans.

So can you.

She is the one with boundary issues, and no real incentive to actually start working on it.

Sorry you have to go there, but, It might be the only thing that ever gets you and your children to a safe place.

LG

Well, I vote for Plan B. I think that more than anything you need a break from this. And if you think you can hold out awhile longer, I would take that route.

I do disagree that exposure had no effect. I believe it had a great effect in your case. It was one of the only times your W had to face consequences of her actions. She was royally pissed off, too, if I remember right. Even though her creepy family doesn't care [I remember that her mother actually even aided her last affair, didn't she?] I would still get her current affair out there and talk about her "adultery" openly.

I would most especially tell your boys, and I will tell you why. Being seperated, she is bound to introduce them to her paramour du jour. She will teach them that adultery is perfectly acceptable and they will grow up morally confused and turn into little adulterers themselves. I know how horrible this is from personal experience.

Kids instinctively know right from wrong and when that is not validated - or even contradicted by adults, they begin to doubt themselves. It is much easier to believe that oneself is stupid than to believe your own parent is actually ammoral. If they are going to be around her and your goofy inlaws, they desperately need your moral guidance about this since they will never get it from that side.

And most importantly, your wife is going to be in for a rude wake up when you aren't around to take care of her. You are probably meeting 3-4 of her needs and she has been taking that for granted for years. She is of an age, that unless she is a smoking hottie, she is not apt to find men as anxious to take care of her as you have. Being "single" she will be competing with 29 yr olds - with no baggage. So her little fantasies about other guys will quickly crumble when the light of reality shines in.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I agree with your reasoning about snooping. Once you go into Plan B, I would shut that all down so you can withdraw from her mess. And I do believe that snooping is a VIRTUE when one has cause. There is nothing dishonest about snooping. You have a right to know every single thing your wife does.

Lastly, I suspect that your wife will go ballistic when you go into plan B because she does not want to lose control of you. I envision her using every trick in the book to get you back on the massahs plantation. I think she is really very dependent on you and doesn't want to lose your services.

Therefore, i would only do this if you fully intend on going black as night and are willing to withstand her onslaught. Because if you let her in even a little tiny bit, she will have won. She will have spit on your credibility and proven that she can manage you at her will. That is a dreadful, dangerous message to send a selfish, entitled wayward because it is a forfeiture of any leverage and any credibility.

There's plenty of data that shows kids don't come out of divorce fine - I can dig it up for you if you want.

I lnow Mel has some stuff from Dr Harley about exposure to children. I will leave it to her to post it. Suffice to say that the lies and moral confusion caused to children is more damaging than the truth. In fact Jesus said the truth sets you free.

She just called me to take the boys. I was able to tap into her facebook messages. She told him that she was wanting the boys to come here so she could call "her man". She told me she wanted to go shopping.

I first said No, I was busy.

I just called and changed my mind.

See my post above. Exposure is GOOD for kids. Affairs and divorce are BAD for kids.


Divorce is devastating to kids. Adultery is harmful to kids. Exposure is not. Kids can deal with the truth, not lies.


She does not have the right to withhold your kids from you. At least it is that way in America. it is ILLEGAL in America. Not anymore than you could withhold your kids from her for her ADULTERY, a truly damaging activity.

Your kids need your moral guidance about their adultery lest they will grow up not knowing right from wrong. That would be a gross dereliction of duty.

another:

I'm goig to talk to the boys tonight

Shaden, please be sure and tell them that adultery is IMMORAL and why it is immoral. They need to be guided through this with your moral guidance.

I think they already know... but there hasn't been much discussion of it in the house...

It is so prevalent in society that even with me, the lines of morality had become compromised until it happened to me. I would watch a movie and depending on the situation, would sometimes cheer on the adulterer... because their sich was so bad.

It doesn't matter. It is wrong. And besides... I am a great husband. She did not have a bad sich.

Shaden

What's appropriate babble response when she accuses me of hurting the boys by using them as a pawn or drawing them in?

Two years after her A, and she still chooses to be dishonest with you?

Do you think that you will ever be able to trust her again?

I dunno Shaden, but I suspect that even your Plan B is successful and she comes back into the M, you might be setting yourself up for a continuing cycle of pain by trying to have a serious R with someone who finds it so easy to be dishonest with you, even when it causes you so much pain.

I would likely head immediately for Plan D (and expose to the kids) after that last discovery.

The real problem is that Shaden has consistently settled for crumbs.

I'd say that was part of the problem, not THE problem. Seems to me that Shaden's WW is apparently quite comfortable lying to him. I suspect that she will continue to resort to lies to manipulate him out of Plan B if he decides to go that route.

I dunno, but I would be not be inclined to continue a M with someone who chose to continue lying to me two years after being exposed to how devastating dishonesty could be in a M.

Shaden, as you're thinking of Plan B, have you thought about what you would need to see from your WW in order to end it?

Hiya Shaden:

Stating the obvious; just because someone is no longer in an active affair does not mean they have lost the wayward mindset, reasons unknown. So they lurch from chance to tinkers to whatever chasing illusions. It would seem they are a mile wide and an inch deep.

Unfortunately real people get mixed up in the game and even more unfortunately, real kids. What would Shaden need from his every wayward wife to reconcile? How about a brain transplant? Or an ethics transfusion.

Larry

You don't have to defend yourself. You are not the one in the wrong here. It is her affairs that are harmful to those boys and they have a right to know why their family is being torn apart. Tell her "no, ADULTERY hurts the boys."

Speaking of children's view of adultery. I never knew adultery was wrong growing up because my father was a serial cheater and my mother was SILENT. I was taught that adultery was perfectly acceptable.

I watched Bridges of Madison County and thought it was a beautiful, romantic movie. My brother left his wife and autistic son for a 21 year old ho and his wife had a nervous breakdown. When deciding which woman he should choose, my father said "son you have to do what makes you happy."

So, I don't believe kids know it is wrong unless you tell them. If no one tells them it is wrong, they think they must be wrong, that it is really ok.

I think SILENCE is just as bad as teaching them to be immoral.

It still bolis down to the fact she hasn't had her feet held to the fire and become accountable because he's settled. It's all related.

BK

You are correct.

The problem is her moral fibre... she had wrong lessons growing up.

But I have been naive and trusting. I am ok... I have learned alot through this about myself and have grown.

I dated a girl who kept breaking up with me for no reason... drama queen. I kept going back until one day it clicked. I said goodbye and never went back. That day clicked on Monday.

I am no longer staying for her... I am staying for myself and my faith in God. Will this turn into us getting back together... I have no idea... but I will go to my grave happy that I did everything I could. Plan B is the last step.

I have spoken with the boys. They are upset but glad I have told them. I have been trying to reach my W to tell her but she is not answering the phone. Her loss.

The boys were so affected... held me and cried... when I told them that I was not going to divorce but was going to fight for them and for our family as long as I could. I love them and their Mom.

Shaden:

Yea, the drama queen deal. That meant you were second best - someone to be used when nothing better was in view.

Once you are through with Plan A, then what? I have often wondered if Dr. Harley allows for truth telling when Plan A falls on its face. Sounds as if you had an epiphany and that is a good thing.

Specifically at hand is the kid deal; wife parroting those who claim kids are not harmed by divorce. Of course that is totally a bunch of baloney.

Larry

I am so sorry for your boys, Shaden. But you did the right thing. Now they can be taught to protect themselves from their mother's affairs/

I called her let her know... asked if she wanted to come over and also talk to them.

She was furious. All the usual. Claimed I was doing it to hurt her. That she didn't know what I was talking about as far as something going on... give me a briek. Accused me of playing games.

I think she got another call while I was on the line... I lost her. She won't answer now. I'll wait for her to call me back.

I'm sure she's calling all her resources to tell how she is the good one... yadayadayada.

I actually feel relieved.

The boys are ok.

Shaden

Don't worry about her reaction, Shaden. You did the right thing by those boys. Let her worry about her own reaction, she is a big girl.

Your boys will also likely be relieved that it had nothing to do with them.

Boys will be boys and at times, as parents, we admonish them for such behavior. As your marriage teetered on the precipe for the last two years they certainly knew something was wrong they just were unable to put their fingers on it. I am sure at least a portion of that stress was internalized and they looked at themselves as possibly the root cause.

The truth hurts...but it can be relieving at the same time.

Beware the spin police. I believe I recall Dr. Harley or Steve advising an exposing parent to sum it all up...in the face of denials, rationalizations and justifications by merely flipping out the question "When is it ever OK to have an affair?". Your boys can certainly understand that simple fact in the face of the circling whirlwind of the spin doctors trying to reverse your moral highground.

Good luck Shaden

Mr. W

Thanks everyone.

Mr. W. I gave a similar statement to the boys. I said that I made mistakes in the marriage but there is never any reason that justifies an affair. An affair is a sin just like murder. It hurts many people.

My W tried to say that I had no right talking to them without consulting with her first.

I just said that I didn't recall her consulting with me before hurting our family or seeing other men.

This is going to be an interesting ride... but I am far more equipped to handle it than I was a couple of years ago. Back then I was a spoon full of mashed potates crying gravy all over the place.

I told the boys that I expect Mom to be furious with me. That things could not get worse than what they are now. I said that I don't know if we will be back together, but that I have faith in God. I told them that this is going to be a long, hard road because it will be a while before their Mom gets over this.

My older son told me when they were leaving..."You didn't do anything wrong by telling us the truth." Kids are smarter than we give them credit.

Shaden

The best thing about this... I now have two sets of eyes and ears over there. I don't mean that they will be spying for me... I will not be asking them or involving them. I mean that my WW (I guess I'm back to the 2 W's) will be a whole lot more uncomfortable talking on the phone with him or being online with him. It won't stop her, but it will be interesting.

I wish I had a tape recorder I could have given them to hear what she is now saying to them.

Shaden

Just be still Shaden and know you did the right thing and struck a huge blow to the heart of the affair.

((((Shaden))))

I'm very proud of you...That took a lot of courage and grace...You did the right thing...You're in our prayers...

Mrs. W

P.S. About this "Switzerland"...(I think I'll steal that nickname since Pep has "retired" from MB...)


I'm doing great, thanks for asking...and I AM EVER SO QUIET AND DEMURE too, of course!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I need to ask you.

Does your wife know about MB and/or anything about your posting here the last few years???

Mr. Wondering

Yep... she never went on... refused to when I encouraged it. I don't think she would come here now... but I saw what happened to others... and there is a whole lot about her that I didn't think... Maybe I should change my name as she is familiar with this name... it is a combination of my 2 sons names, so she has used it as well. How easy is it to change? She could probably still find my new name by reading the sich. I haven't talked about this site in a long time, she probably doesn't even remember what it's called. I'll take the chance for now and see where this leads. Like I said, I've got nothing to lose.

Shaden

Mrs. W... my eyesight isn't working well... did you type "quiet and demule"???

Just itchin' for an [censored] whoopin' aren't ya boy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. If you ever did wish to change your name it's so simple that even a Canadian could do it, so you're in luck there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just go to where it says "My Home" and you'll quickly figure it out from there I believe...If not, one of us kind Americans will take pity on ya and walk you through it step by step...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Surely they don't allow FOREIGNERS to change their names?!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!! Now THAT was funny!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Right now I'm just feeling SO lucky that I did not make it into your signature line the time that I said "rush and roulette" here...Now THAT would have been embarrassing!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

P.S. Sorry for the threadjack Shaden...We've missed your good "sportedness" around here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Boy kids, at least the ones I have, are not at all bashful about telling mom how the cow ate the cabbage. Good show Shaden.

Larry

Hey Shaden! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wondered how you were doing.

Congrats for telling your boys the truth.

The truth will set them free.

Free to heal... and not blame themselves.

I'm glad to see you taking steps to change your sitch. I knew it would have to start w/ you.

Praying for you and yours.

~ Marsh

The latest quote from WW's older sister...straight from facebook.

"What the ****** have you done? Why? WHY? After biulding security in your boys thru all this would you TEAR it apart because of your OWN INSECURITIES???
I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD DO THIS TO YOUR KIDS. You've upset no one else but your children"

...and my reply...

"I will say this one time.

I have not done "this"... (WW) has done this to the kids. The truth is what it is.

When you told SIL's son about SIL's EX being an alchaholic or other truths about him... were you hurting SIL's son... no he did.

The boys need to be taught about right and wrong. Keeping silent only allows the cycle to continue.

There are way too many secrets being kept... some that you don't even know about.

I won't answer the rest of your comments... it isn't worth it. Obviously others are upset... but that's not why I did it.

It's funny how everyone rallies around (WW) while she is having multiple affairs... and that is ok. In case you didn't know... she is already talking marriage with OM. His marriage ended because he slept around. I know you or the rest of your family WILL NOT believe this... but I did it because I love (WW). She obviously did not learn how damaging this behavior can be to everyone... most importantly herself. Half of the reason why I was able to be so patient the last two years is because I understood that she hurt herself more than she hurt me... and she is continuing.

If we didn't ever speak to each other again that is one thing... but what she is doing is still wrong. Is there ever any situation that infedility is ok? (Note... Mr. W. used your line... thanks)

That is what is hurting our sons. The truth that I told is the actions she is doing. I didn't have the affairs.

I know you all think I'm self-righteous... I am just protecting my family and I had a lot of advice before I made the decision.

Next time please think about what you are going to shout at me. How can I be doing this to the kids... it is her choices.

I don't understand the insecurities comment?

Do you know what is going on between WW and OM? Has she told you that nothing is going on?

You just don't see what is wrong here, do you?"

Any thoughts... drawn into too much... or ok babble cutting?

shaden

Thanks, Marsh and Larry.

I can't believe how many of the same names are still here helping others.

What happened to Pep?

shaden

I doubt I would have wasted breath and energy on her myself. Are you saying SIL KNOWS that WW is with yet another OM?

No wonder evil flourishes with such as her. I wouldn't engage with her if it was me.

Conflict (which exposure has generated) is excellent. It will halm her affair have no doubt.

I spoke to my SIL (on my side of the family) last night. She used to know OM years ago and knows that his previous marriage ended in divorce because he was sleeping around.

It turns out that her brother in law is OM's cousin... so there is a connection for further exposure.

I found out also that OM is a real estate agent... a salesman. Go figure. I'm not putting down salesman (maybe), but the last was a car salesman, and her Mom left her 1st husband for a salesman (actually he was a minister at the time, but became a salesman)... It is that type of personality that seems to attract my WW.

Fast-talking, money flashing....

I'm just the boring, nice guy, great friend.

Nothing else to report from last night. No other nasty emails. I'm sure that she spent a while talking to the boys and got them in bed... laid with them and fell asleep... probably also talked for an hour with OM and her Mom and sisters.... that's an hour each... her usual time.

I am hoping that I won't have trouble with seeing the boys. But I'm sure they will help me in that respect. They will want to see me.

shaden

Great answer! It is amazing how your WW is portrayed as the victim, when the real victims are you and your boys. At least now the boys can protect themselves by understanding what is going on here. They will be able to come to you now and talk openly about their concerns about their mothers behavior.

I wouldn't change a word. Your SIL is being dense and enabling. Those are both bad choices. You clearly state the obvious and you did it very, very well. You are not the bad guy here.

Oh, and I am a salesman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I don't fast talk and I don't flash money. . .some do and they are like bad lawyers giving a horrible reputation to those other lawyers who are not evil and totally self serving.

Larry

Update:

Asked by email to have the boys for supper tonight... one had a meeting at school, so no good. I should have them tomorrow. WW emailed back... "Don't you think enough damage has been caused already?" I replied, "more than enough damage was caused"

The boys didn't go to school today... not happy about that. She always keeps them home for any little thing or upset. It's good they still get good grades, but they are learning some poor habits for the future.

I guess they were up too late.

I asked the older son... I said, "I am only going to ask one question about your discussion with Mom... Did she tell you that I was lying?"

My son said, she didn't comment on Mr.P... the first OM, but she said I was mistaken about new OM. She told him how I could have thought that. I just replied... "I am not trying to turn you on your Mom... you need to make up your own mind... but I know what I saw, and I was not mistaken."

I asked him "do you believe her?" I can't remember his words, but basically said that he wanted to believe her.

I didn't push it at that point. I'm already a little concerned about this part of the plan.

Now what's next?

A lawyer should be calling me in an hour or so with legal advice. Is there any particular questions I should be asking... besides how to protect myself financially? and what should I be doing to improve my chances of custody if it comes to divorce?

shaden

I spoke with someone today who is a couson of OM. I asked if he would call OM's brother's wife and tell her how OM's brother is involved and assisting... also he is talking to my WW's sister.

the cousin said he would think about it and pray on it... he didn't know if he wanted to get involved.

I said that sometimes we need to make tough choices to do what is right. At the very least, would he get me the phone numbers. He did say he was thinking about calling OM himself. I don't see that helping, but it can't hurt.

My WW's twin sister is talking to OM's twin brother. It didn't seem as intimate, but still inappropriate. I have a copy of one email from her to him discussing her own marital problems. Should my next step be to contact her husband?

3 things about this...

1) her husband has been backstabbing me and supporting my W.
(I know... wrong is wrong regardless of what the person is like or doing... but I could see him somehow twisting me contacting him to his advantage with his W... putting me down for stooping to that level, which he would never do)

2) I did tell his W that I knew about it and it was wrong. I do agree that she needs to set boundaries in her marriage... probably separate, but I also said that I would leave it up to her to figure it out with him. I regretted this right away... I know, Mel... isn't it you who says that a bad promise made should not be kept.

3) Most importantly... her H is an alchaholic and has hit her a couple of times already. By telling him, am I putting his W and kids in danger?

Shaden

I think the best thing you could do for both of them is tell him. That would be an act of decency, grace and class despite the fact that he has backstabbed you. I think you should rise above it and do him a good turn.

While he might be mad at first, it will give him a heads up and he will come to appreciate it some day. Besides, if there is nothing wrong with adultery, as her family avers, then there should be no issue.

This is how affairs start; shared confidences. It goes from there.

If you tell him, he might think you are trying to get even for his backstabbing and he might not believe you. "I don't give a damn if you believe me or not," is a good start to any such conversation. "The reason I am telling you this is because from my recent experience with adultery, I would tell my worst enemy if I thought his wife were cheating or thinking about cheating. It just goes with how I feel about adultery."

If he gets drunk and slugs her, I have mixed emotions. The dominant one is that she should have bailed a long time ago.

Your mileage may vary - these are just suggestions.

Larry

One more thing:

When a kid says he wants to believe, he doesn't.

Larry

I have sent a message with the copied email to my BIL so that he can see what his W is up to.

Maybe/hopefully this will start a whole new war, and will split up the team. It will make my WW and her sisters and Mom even closer, but there will be crap flying from every direction.

Who knows... maybe my next step is to let the cat out of the bag to WW's older sister that she is in fact only a half sister... another big secret that I have been encouraging WW and her Mom to tell the truth about for a while. I felt it wasn't my place to speak on this one, but while I'm opening up everything... why not this one?

I'll wait on that for a bit, though.

Shaden

My grandma told me a truth. She said that I needed to take a close look at a female's mama before I married said female. She also said take a look at the family to see if I had the stomach to deal with them on a daily basis. Then she said since most men are dumb as fence posts when it came to women, let her figure it out and tell me. Wish I had listened better to Grandma.

Larry

Larry, you are so right.

With the counsellors I've talked to... who know WW's family and history, they recognize that this is a huge part of the problem. My W did not get a morale basis... and is still being encouraged in the wrong way.

Anyone have any suggestions for my next move.

The lawyer didn't call tonight... I have another time slot for him to call me on Saturday morning... through an EAP at work.

Shaden

Shaden,

If that means you're having any second thoughts about your decision to tell your sons, I just want to say that I believe you did the right thing... and that you are handling it with tremendous grace. Of course they will be torn, and will want to believe the best about their mom. They love her. But they deserve to know what is really happening in their lives. And they will eventually be able to see it for themselves. Whatever happens now with your marriage, just please know that you did right by your sons. Keep telling them the truth, and tell they WHY you're telling them.

As for your wife's family and all their secrets... personally, I'd concentrate on my own situation for now. JMO.

--SC

Everything was pretty quiet last night. WW was online in the evening, but couldn't see any messages going back and forth. I think she has switched to another way to communicate. I think she knows I was tapping in. But she hasn't changed passwords. Probably just on the phone.

It is also possible that the guilt with the kids has caused her to stop for a night or two... but I know the addiction will be enough for her to go back.

I didn't hear if BIL got his message yet.

I also hope that wasn't a mistake... putting the family in jeopardy from his temper. He has not been out of control to this point that I know of in the past... the hitting was once each time...and I think once was a retaliation from her hit... but these things can escalate quickly.

Smartcookie... thanks for the encouragement. Probably my WW sees that she is just having harmless talk... nothing has happened... so she can tell the boys I am mistaken. If so, she hasn't learned a thing.

I just didn't want to draw the boys into this messy business. I told WW all along that wouldn't happen. But I do see the necessity of it... just don't like it. But I like what she is doing even less.

I was reading again from Dr. Dobson's book "Tough Love" last night. It did say to not involve the kids... but that is only one opinion. Most of the rest of his ideas, though, seem to be excellent.

Shaden

Not to belabor the point, but...

I don't think you're "drawing them in". They're already "involved" because they're part of the family.

If you and your wife had reconciled, I would have supported your decision not to tell your kids about her past affair. If you and your wife were unable to recover, but had split-up for reasons other than her affair, I'd say the same thing.

But your boys' lives are being directly affected by your wife's past and current "activites" with other men. At some point, they would have seen what is happening with this new guy. And eventually, they would either figure out what's been going on... and be angry with you for not telling them. Or, they would go through life wondering what the heck happened... and mistrusting their own instincts and judgement.

All that said, I do think it can be a fine line between simply revealing the truth... and involving the kids in an unhealthy way. "using them" if you will. From what I've read of your posts, I trust that you will continue to do what's best for them, and not cross that line.

Again, BRAVO!

--SC

I agree very much with Smartcookie, you aren't getting the kids involved any more than they already were involved. they need to know what is going on in their lives so they can protect themselves. On the other hand, using them to get back or putting them in the middle would be bad for them.

I have the boys tonight... we went to see Mr. Bean. Not my first choice, but it had a few funny moments... what a dancer.

This morning, I had an email from older son. He said he was so glad it was Friday because he was coming over to my place tonight... he couldn't wait. It made my day.

SC... thanks... and you are right... I won't cross the line. Some would think I already have.

A couple of tidbits of info.

In my email to my son this morning, I made the Plan B mistake (although I haven't finalized Plan B yet) of telling him to give his Mom a hug from me... but not to tell her it was from me. He did... and he told her. She gave him a hug back for me.

He also said that she was trying to delete facebook from her computer. I have noticed that there has been no activity for the past couple of nights on it.

Don't worry, everyone... I don't need 2x4s. I am well aware that neither of these things mean anything. They are both probably meant to make my son feel better.

My younger son tried to call WW tonight at 1:00 in the morning (I know... delinquent Dad having them up that late). The phone was busy. Either talking to her sister because sh!! hit the fan after my email to BIL. or talking to OM. I think the boys might have thought that it was OM but didn't say it. I only said that it could be one of 3 people... they said "Nanny", Auntie, and who's the third...I didn't answer... then they said their other auntie. I left it at that, but knew it wasn't her at that time. OM was the 3rd guess. My son tried several times to call to say goodnight. They finally said that she probably left the phone off the hook. I left it at that... didn't encourage any thoughts. It is not unusual for her to be on the phone with her sister or Mom at that time. But more than likely, she has the freedom tonight to talk to OM with the kids here.

I saw that BIL was online tonight... I sent him a quick email asking if he got my other email. He didn't and hasn't responded. Don't know what that means... but it isn't my concern anymore. Like I said, if that backfires on me, it really can't get much worse for me anyway.

Shaden

You can be loving right up till you drop the plan B hammer Shaden. No 2x4's from me.

Shaden, what is your timing on Plan B? Do you have a date that you intend on going dark? I agree with Dave that you can communicate all you want until the moment you send the letter.

Are you familiar with all the details of Plan B? Such as getting your finances in order, setting up a visitation calendar, designating an intermediary, etc?

Are you familiar with how a Plan B letter should be laid out? Here is one that I really like: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

I am working on the finances now, and will be talking to a lawyer this weekend to get advice on custody, separation agreement, etc..

I have started working on a calendar and a Plan B letter... but your link helps a lot.

I'm not sure about who to use as an intermediary yet as her family is all so blind.

I have read up on plan B on here.

I haven't set a time yet to complete all of this and give it to her. I will have a very busy time at work the next week, so I'll be kinda of dark during that time anyway.

I noticed this morning that she had been on facebook... just read her incoming. No new outgoing, but she could have deleted. She was on at 5:00 AM and her status was changed to "I wish I were sleeping". So she is having some trouble... or she was on the phone with OM for a long time.

Still no word about BIL... I'm sure I made things worse for all of us in that regard, but in the end it won't matter.

Shaden

Shaden, the ideal intermediary would be someone you both know and trust and who would remain neutral. If you can't think of someone [and sometimes there just IS no one] maybe one of your friends here would suffice? Some of us have done this before in a pinch and it worked out ok as long as we just represented ourselves as a neutral party. Just something to think about..

there is a friend that I might be able to ask. I hate getting them involved, but I did expose to her yesterday. She is the mother of my sons best friend and used to work with my WW. I coached my son's baseball team with her husband. She said she is neutral and would probably help.

I'll think some more, but this is probably the best route. I just know that she is going through her own difficulties with her daughter and hate to lay more on her... but that is a part of life... growing as we deal with challenges.

thanks for the ideas ML.

Shaden

Shaden, all she would have to do is act as a SPAM FILTER for you and pass on pertinent information. For example:

acceptable: WW needs to change visitation this week from Tuesday to Wednesday

not acceptable: your silence is childish and immature!

not acceptable: send Johnny's superman underwear when he comes to visit me

She would screen out the junk and only send you messages - in her words - that you must have.

Unless I can think of someone better, I will talk to her. She is probably the most neutral person... she is a much stronger friend with my WW... but she has respect for me and her main interest is in her son and our boys.

When I've finished a plan B letter, I'll also post on here. Not sure when that will be... but soon.


Is there anything else... I'll check off my todo list...

- discuss with lawyer to ensure I protect myself financially and for custody.
- make any necessary changes to ensure finances are in order.
- create a visitation calendar... or some method that will work.
- choose an intermediary.
- write a Plan B letter and post it here for review.
- Have a clear list of boundaries that will protect me and my sons for the future. Have an clear understanding of what and only what I will accept before reconciliation.
- write another letter telling her how much I miss her and wish she was here with me...that I would die without her (Just kidding)
- enjoy life. enjoy time with my sons. continue to work on me.
- have unbreakable and confident faith.

Have I left out any important details?

Shaden

... should I add in a formal separation agreement?

how about Mr. W's idea of moving into "my" condo since I signed for the property as well.

All of that would go into the Plan B letter. It should be a love letter telling her

- you are sorry for your part in the state of the marriage

- that you are ending contact with her

- that in order to resume contact, she must end her pursuit of adultery and demonstrate a willingness and committment to CARE for you as a husband

In it, tell her that all PERTINENT contact is to be channeled through XXXXX [your designated intermediary] unless an emergency. In it, specify that the children are not to be exposed to any of her paramours.

I would go over the formal seperation and get visitation all set up and in place before you go into Plan B. That way, you won't have to break no contact to clear up any misunderstandings. Better to have that all in place first.

I am not clear on the condo situation? What is the situation with that? She lives in a condo you bought and you live where? Who has primary custody?

We sold our house.

She picked out a condo and we both signed for it...(very naive)... she couldn't afford it on her own. At that point, I had a lot of hope... just stupid.

I am in an apartment about 2 blocks from the condo.

No separation agreement.

the boys stay with her primarily, but we had open agreement... anytime I wanted them or they wanted to be with me.

In fact, until Monday, when I found out about new OM, I was there practically every night or together with them. The only thing lacking was open communication and sleeping together... although that even happened a couple of times during the separation.

I had no clue that she was still in the place in her mind that she is. I thought she had learned her lesson, but still was trying to sort out her own beliefs and feelings on her life and happiness. It takes me a while to figure it out sometimes, LOL.

Regularly she told me she missed me, loved me, hugged and kissed me, we talked about going on a cruise as a family... etc, etc.. She would invite me over for dinner.

She did not commit to getting back together and would not discuss that... I was not pushing it for one more month, our original agreement was 3 months separated. But hopefully it is evident how I could have been mislead about where she was at.

The only clue was that she was different around me when her family was there. They did invite me over, earlier in the separation for a family get-together... even one time went when she was working. But lately, there was nothing. She avoided having me around if she could when her family was there. So that tells me she was telling them one thing and me another. She had a whole lot of cake on her table... and enjoying every last bite.

This is tough. I do miss her already... even with how I feel about her and her behavior. That shows me I still have a lot of work to do on myself.

I think I should stop the snooping. The snooping will hurt me now, even though I am not seeing anything anymore, because it is obsessive and leaves me focused on her rather than moving forward.

The hardest part is wanting to move forward, but also wanting to have my family back at the same time. I feel torn.

Shaden

I guess having my family back is moving forward. I cannot go back to the way we were... so the only way she will have me back is if we move forward.

Ok...please remind me again why it was a good idea to expose to my sons.

I am being laid out as a terrible Dad because I would bring the kids into the middle of it. "It doesn't matter what the adults have done, the kids should not have to be exposed".

I know this is all defensive and fog talk... but I still feel crappy. All of her allies are against me on this one... even if I had a chance to get support against the affair, they see me as being wrong now.

My W said she will never forgive me for telling them. I know it's babble. but...

My son did tell me yesterday that he was glad he knew. before knowing he had so many questions that were not answered. now he can understand why we are separating.

I just said that I hope he still loves his Mom.. he said yes... that they are close and always will love her.

shaden

My WW said to me last night that she couldn't think of anything more despicable than me using the kids to hurt her. I said what is despicable is WW with OM1, WW with OM2, WW with OM3, and now WW with OM4.

I am trying again to remind myself why I am not filing for divorce.

Couple of thoughts.

One, you are right to tell your children the truth. What hurts your children is the reality of consequences not knowing WHY they are having to accept the loss.

The only thing offended here is your wifes PRIDE and EGO.

She does not want to accept responsibility for choosing to hurt her children in order to please her lust.



Two, you have often been a very "grey" thinker in the past and it looks like you have been surrounded by other grey thinkers.

The grey thinkers are never going to support you taking any action that results in "discomfort" for themselves.

No amount of explanation will pursuade them.

They much prefer to tell the children [the people who have NO choice] to suck up their loss and smile...that they are wrong to feel anger, loss, and to ask questions like...why do we have to do this? The answer to that question is that they don't HAVE to do this...she WANTS to do this and she doesn't care what they want or what is good for them.

Grey thinkers are NEVER going to support the belief that a person is bound to do what they no longer FEEL like doing.

If you want to find support for black and white concepts you are going to have to find a new social niche.



Three...

You have been badly used with your cooperation. This is weakness and uncertainty and not much else.

They LIKE you to be weak. They LIKE you to be used.

When you are no longer available to be weak or used they will no longer like you.

I'm sorry but that's the way it goes. You aren't playing the game by their rules anymore and they'd rather kick the table over and stomp off than respect your change of heart.

Your children knowing the truth about their lives will bring some uncomfortable questions into play and may even ask them to do what they do not feel like doing.

Grey thinkers believe that if you can conceal the sickness you can negotiate the consequences.

Not true...man does not have power over consequences...only over choices.

Stand in defiance of God at your own peril, yes?

Thank you, Noodle.

Exactly the kind of response I was hoping for... a challenge.

I do know that I did the right thing. It just hurts to see the kids hurting. My WW told me my son cried all night and the next day after I told them. I know that my son was not crying because I told him, but because of what my WW has done... and she doesn't like that. But I still don't like the hurt he is going through... and my telling him helped it hit home.

Most people who stand up for what is right will often get punished for it... but you are correct. I must stand up against adultery... which is why I sent the email to BIL.

My W says that "I" did irreperable damage by sending that email. Doesn't anyone see that the adultery is doing the damage???

I am holding on with fingertips to black and white...sometimes it's difficult to hold on when you're used to compromising grey colours. I will continue to hold on.

Shaden

Shaden,

Your child is in conflict now because perhaps he does see that it's a CHOICE. That someone is hurting him by CHOICE. Of course that is upsetting. Someone that he loves and trusts is choosing to be selfish when she should be choosing to love him. Ouch.

I bet you dollars to doughnuts that it was present as something that he HAD to accept...an event that MUST occur and because of that he has been in survival mode just trying to acclimate.

This is how children are corrupted...their perception is deliberately skewed so that they do not create CONFLICT by reacting in a way that creates guilt or other unpleasant emotion in the guilty party.

As long as that kid is smiling while "surviving" she is free to pretend that she has escaped consequences.

You did a good thing for your son Shaden by allowing him to "see" the truth and to experience integrity between his perceptions and the reality of the situation.

It's very WEIRD to see someone go through an upsetting event with a smile in their face...right?

So much so that we think..golly...what's WRONG with them? Why aren't they reacting to whats going on around them?

That's very close to what your ww and her friends/family are doing to your son...sort of deliberate crazymaking via skewed reality.

Your son would be sad to lose his mother because she died..not because she died of cancer.

Or another comparison...

Imagine that your wife ran away from home to fullfillher lifelong dream of being a deadbeat parent.

To save your child the heartbreak of abandonment you told him his mother died..no help for it....she died and wouldn't have left if she could help it.

Ten years later he runs into her on the street.

Now what?

Sooner or later the truth will out. Something will collide with his false beliefs as surely as they collided with yours.

When that happens how can he trust you who decieved him?

Always look to the future because you plant seeds every day.

Nothing will make your ww more angry than your assertion

"I have been honest and I have been faithfull"

She has been dishonest and unfaithfull.

This places her in stark contrast and exposes her shamefull behavior.

She comes out looking bad when the truth is exposed Shaden.

That is why she doesn't want it done.

Is that helping any?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My 12 yr old is funny. Last night when he was talking about being glad that he now has some answers... we discussed for a couple of minutes... and then I said that we shouldn't be talking about it anymore unless he has questions. I said let's change the subject.

Then I kept going and said... "I just want you to know that I have faith in God that everything is going to turn out allright for us" He just said... why are you talking about faith in God... I thought we were changing the subject. LOL

My 12 yr. old is the one talking and crying. It is my 10 yr.old that I am more worried about. He doesn't talk about what's going on in his head.

He is the one who throughout separation would ensure that his hugs and kisses were equal and tried to make sure neither of us were alone. If older son was with one parent then he would go with the other.

You are right about the fact they are not used to me standing up for myself... and it is generally easy to guilt and force me down. I made it easy because I always second-guessed myself. Thank you for reminding me that the main point here is that even though I might make some mistakes, I am standing up for what is right and for myself. That makes them uncomfortable and that is too bad for them.

I know that it is not recommended to solicit help from WW's family members. But I am considering calling her Aunt who is a very respected and loved minister high up in her church. I'm not sure if she is in Toronto or England right now. I know that WW Mom and her are close. The aunt had said that if WW left me, I would be snatched up pretty quick by someone else.

I'm wondering if she would be one who would also confront what is wrong... I know she is that type of person. She even resigned from her position because she felt a strong conflict within the church... and this was huge, because she was considered a favorite to eventually become the head of our church in the World before she retired. She has since been re-instated (but probably lost any chance of becoming the leader).

My reason for doing this is to talk some sense into WW's mom. I doubt she knows the whole truth about WW. WW was denying that there was anything going on to me last night... so I'm sure she is telling everyone else the same thing.

Shaden

Yes, Noodle.

It has helped a lot.

thanks.

Shaden

How far do I take it...

Do I show the boys the proof so they will know... or let them find out anymore on their own.

Should I send proof to her family so they will know she is lying to everyone?

Or have I done my part?

I probably did a stupid thing last night at the end of my conversation with WW.

After she was denying everything and telling me I had misread everything and I was wrecking any chance we had being friends. I said to her, "by the way, you can change the password on your facebook... it is too hurtful to read... (I won't give the details here) about what you want to do to him."

She has changed the password, so I have lost my way of spying. But I have enough proof to show it wasn't just a friendship... and looking at all of that was too hurtful. I was obsessing again and I don't need to see it. It doesn't change anything at this point. I will be going dark very soon... after we have met about the arrangements.

What it did do, though, is make her very uncomfortable knowing that I do know the truth.

Still.... it was probably a mistake. I can't change it now.

Shaden

She did tell me last night... that she does love me. When I asked how it go a week ago from "I love you and I miss you" to this.

probably still just trying to bring me back in line.

Welll here is the thing about trying to pursuade family members.

The ENTIRE issue for them is really about obediance to God even when it really...really makes you uncomfortable.

I'm not climbing on my high horse to pretend that I have my life at all times in all ways under discipline...but I will tell you that the areas which I have yet to conquer are the areas I am most vulnerable to deception and wrong thinking.

See, once I am able to stop struggling for control [with..oh let's see..the alpha and omega..ultimate creator...deity powerfull beyond space and time..yeah..nice fight I'm putting up huh? Maybe a few more push ups you think?] and accept that GOD determines right and wrong [and that there IS a right and a wrong]..not me...it becomes very EASY to make most decisions.

In your case..adultery is WRONG.

Poof. Period.

There is no excuse, no explanation, no list of reasons...literally NOTHING can change that verdict.

Your wife is in sin and her sin affects more than herself.

People have to decide whether they will obey God and call it sin...or obey their flesh and make excuse for someone they don't want to make angry or sad by saying "no".

That is the primary struggle Shaden...for them.

Either they aren't christians at all..in which case there is no question they will follow their flesh.

Or they are but they are in defiance...in which case you expose that and leave the discipline to God...he is more than capable.

So my advice is stand behind God and let him fight the good fight.

You tell your children that although you are hurt by her behavior...you believe that God created marriage to be a permanent relationship and that you hope ww will repent and turn from her adultery.

You tell the truth and let God do the rest.

He can convict and stir the heart beyond anything you could ever create under any circumstances.

Don't be afraid of their anger ...even if it is with you.

My older SIL has emailed me a couple of times. She is angry and confused. She is almost willing to talk to me to get my side... I have been telling her that I just want to help her sister... even if my marriage does not last.

This sister is the one that has always respected me, and there is a chance with her that she will believe me.

She emailed this morning saying her Mom feels she doesn't have all the story as well. She thinks that if her Mom did, she would speak out against it... which is why she is being kept in the dark by my WW.

I will let God do the fighting, but if he gives me the opportunity to talk to SIL, then I will take it.

Shaden

I'm terribly prone to indecision and rationalization as well.

Since we are both christians I can share with you that in my belief it really all boils down to one question.

Will you obey God on this issue or will you not?

How is that for black and white?

Once you can say "yes" to that question the churning and the swirling and the attempts to control every variable and find the perfect answer stops [or at least gets much quieter].

The perfect answer may not FEEL perfect.

It might hurt or make people angry.

It might make conflict in your life.

The perfect answer is only perfect because it is done in obediance and lets go of the outcomes in favor of faith.

It is SCARY to get out of the boat Shaden...but I think it's scary trying to hold back the waves yourself as well because somewhere inside you have the despairing knowledge that there is NO WAY you are big enough for the job.

Yep,

You tell the truth...provide the evidence..and get out of the way.

I was referring to trying to argue or pursuade people to support you and your position when their flesh struggles against that judgement.

No need to remind you... your son already did....


You did it for them. Period. Not to hurt her. It became apparent that her actions were directly affecting them in ways that were confusing and harmful... and they needed to know the truth.

Shaden, you know I'm a card carrying member of the anti-exposure league, right? Even I think you did the right thing by telling your kids.

Your younger son's reaction is troubling, though... Bottling everything up and trying to smooth it all over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> May I recommend the book "The Truth About Children and Divorce" by Dr. David Emery? Even if you don't end up D'd... the book may help you get inside your son's head and figure out ways to help him through this.


The defense rests, your honor!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shaden,
I think you did the right thing by telling your sons the truth. In the long run it is best. I am also a grey thinker, but only when it comes to this adultery situation. Everything else is pretty black and white. I think for me the grey is masking simple fear and not even masking it very well. Conquering the fear is essential, now and going forward, whether your WW turns around or not.
All the Best-

Noodle, you said...

"Will you obey God on this issue or will you not?"

I want to obey God... the problem is in knowing what he is telling me to do.

The past 2 years I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do. I kept getting the message... "patience". I felt I was supposed to love my W and let her heal in her own time. I now know that I was mistaken. Sometimes faith requires action. So now I am acting. But how does one know when enough action has happened and when we are to stop and be patient... waiting on God?

My problem is not in the willingness... I have been willing all along. It is in getting differing messages and being unsure. As soon as I know what to do or what is right... I get off the fence pretty quickly and it becomes black or white. My problem is always seeing the other side and wondering if that is the right side. My judgement sucks.

Thanks, Smart Cookie.

Anti-exposure league??? are you kidding? I've got to check back and see some of your debates with Melodylane... I bet they were pretty good.

I knew when I typed that message that someone would say exactly what you said... I was already giving my answer. Often my head will tell me one thing... and know it is right... but my feelings or fear... whichever is stronger at the time will be crying out against.

I just needed some reassurance. I do know I did the right thing and my son confirmed it.

My WW is just screaming foul because she looks bad. However, she had a father (one of a few) who trash talked her Mom when they split (he had affairs of his own... so did she). Eventually he forced my WW to choose to not see him anymore because of it. So she has been extra paranoid about this. So, although I realize it is her protecting herself... I also understand she might have more fear about this than the average person. But it wasn't enough to keep her from making the poor choices she has made.

Thanks for the info about the book. I just realized that I've done so much reading about adultery, about marraige, about communication, and making myself a stronger person or with more self esteem... etc., but I have not done any reading (except a couple of internet articles) about protecting or supporting my children through this crisis. Shame on me.

Shaden

Lostherlove...

thank you for the encouragement. You are absolutely right that it is fear that keeps us on the fence or thinking grey. We are afraid to make a stand because we are exposed if we are wrong... so it is much safer to stand in the gray. But this leaves us lost in so many ways.

Ok, what kind of divorced 48 yr. old man types in an email... with a picture of him with shades on sitting in his car... saying "you just want to see my twinkie"

Come on. Is he back in his teenage years? I think they are both reliving when she was 7 and he was 19... except now moved to rated PG rather than G.

That's when I stopped reading the emails... I had seen enough of what she wanted to do... and I didn't need to see her reply to that one.

Shaden

Ok.

I will be meeting with her to go over finances and schedule on Thursday night.

Should the Plan B letter be handed to her at the close of that meeting? Or should I wait to ensure there are no final details or communication about the details?

Also... I will go to the meeting with an idea of what I want. I will give her only one meeting to meet my expectations. If we cannot decide, then I will have a lawyer draw up an agreement.

I'm sure she will want to have a family member with her. Would you recomend I bring someone myself? To me, this shows weakness. (Hey WW, I'm going to bring my father to protect me)... actually... he won't be in town until Friday, so that won't work.

I'll write a plan B letter tomorrow night and post on here for comments.

Shaden

Other than questioning if she is still denying the affair, I have been continuing to be pleasant with her. When I went Sunday night to pick up the kids, she had just dropped an ironing board on her toe. I stopped to check it out if it were broken. Today, she emailed me to tell me that she had not broken it... but thanked me for checking it out.

She also told me Sunday night that she does love me (I am assuming she means as a friend). This tells me that the cake-eating is still there and she might just see a difference when I am no longer available to her... and when I suddenly am not needing her.

I'm having a good day today (mostly). Had a lot of fun at work and a lot of great conversation and laughter.

I also have friends coming out of the woodwork offering to go for coffee, to a movie, or over for dinner.

And... my work is paying for me to take an acting course, go figure. I am a retail manager, but they feel (and I agree) that I would improve on my leadership presence and public speaking by taking an improv and acting course. Great idea. I will also be joining a toastmaster club.

I will be keeping myself busy... and working to improve myself. The last hurdle (which my W and I will be discussing tomorrow night) is whether to put the kids in hockey this year or not. The cost is going to be tough, but even worse is the time. My work is extra busy... and I cannot afford to take my focus away from that right now... I have too often in the past. My WW will be working a full time and part time job. But this is very important to the boys. I could just say that this is another consequence of my WW's actions... but this would just be hurting the boys.

Good times, Good times...

Shaden

forgot to mention in the last post... I am only being pleasant to plan A until Plan B is in effect.

I am thinking you should go to the lawyer so he can play the pitbull and negotiate favorable conditions for you and your sons. If you try to do this then the battle is between you and her. And that is the last thing you want on her mind before you go dark. If the lawyer does it, then he is the bad guy.

Would you be able to hardball negotite with your own wife? For example, you should not be paying her any money [not for her condo, car, alimony, etc] and should probably get primary custody of your kids. Can you negotiate all that without hard feelings?

Remember also that you need to leave GOOD FEELINGS on the table when you go dark, so strategically, it would be best to get this all negotiated and in place and THEN go dark when the dust has settled. Get the plan in place and work out all the kinks before you go dark, lessening the need for any communication.

Hi Mel.

I hear ya, but not sure I agree.

My WW just went through this with her older sister... she went with her sis to almost every lawyers visit.

She does know that the lawyers draw things out and will push towards tougher results... but they still go with what the client is asking for.

Contrary to her actions, my WW isn't a stupid person. She knows that I still have control when the lawyers are doing the work. Doesn't this just look phony and manipulative?

I'm not against the "going tough" with the lawyer... I am against drawing this out. It took the lawyer a couple of weeks just to get the papers out. Months later, she has finally settled.

As to the money... should child support be given of any amount? I was going to drastically reduce now that I will have shared custody.

I am thinking that I will go with 50% custody. Right now, she has them 90%+ (until last week, I was always there with them)... this will be a drastic change for her and the boys. Also, with my schedule at work and taking courses, etc., I don't know if I can be there for them more than that.

... or does primary custody not necessarily mean the amount of time, but gives other rights???

Shaden

"I don't know if I can be there for them more than that."

that didn't sound quite right. I can make whatever choices I have to, the boys are the most important part of my life right now.

But being realistic with how my life is today...

back again on that "I don't know if I can be there more than that" crap I spouted.

If I was not in this sich, but in a different one... one where my W died... I would need to be there 100% for my kids. I must look at it in that way. My W is dead right now. The kids need me 100% of the time.

Today I am starting to take control.

Up to today I have been constantly checking my W's emails for any sign of "action". I did check today to see what SKYPE was... something OM mentioned. and was searching for her on it. At first I thought it was some kind of anagram for dirty talk or something... but it is an internet phone. My sons said my WW went out last night to pick up an earset... for her new job... which is true (I think)... but it also recomends an earset for SKYPE.

My WW has locked me out of facebook... but I was trying to guess her new password.

Anyway... I am now choosing (and I've done a few times today) that every time I am tempted to check her email, guess her password, or in any way check on her movements... that I will choose for peace and strength and faith. Every time I obsess and look I give her power over me. I will not be that person anymore.

Those that do... please pray for me and my family.

(and those that don't... it's not too late to start <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
Shaden

This is the downside of surveillance.

I am all for "snoopery" which supports your perception that...yep...something is up...but it CAN become very obsessive if you don't put limits on it.

People tend to become so focussed on snooping that they stop moving foreward in their OWN lives.

I'd be willing to bet that you have spent more time fine combing your WWs emails than you have improving your own position.

It happens. Here's what you can do.

1 Tell yourself the truth. There is no reason at this point for you to be trying to figure out her passwords...you already have an accurate perception of reality. Everything IS what it seems to be.

2 Look at what ELSE is going on during those times.

Is it just before bed? When you feel lonely? When you feel anxious?

3 Get your ducks in a row.

Get your own plan in action.

4 Get a life dude.

You need to be getting out. Socialising. Redecorating. Take a class. Do SOMETHING to occupy your mind.

Thanks, Noodle.

That is pretty much what I was thinking this morning when I decided "no more".

I am working on a plan..., I am signing up for a course, and I have several friends coming out of the woodwork asking me to get out with them or to their house. (This can be hard as most of them have families... but it's the life I need to get used to).

The problem was... it's tough to find a friend to hang out with when you get home and 3:30 AM from work and can't sleep. I was on the computer until about 6AM. When I had some sleep I thought about it and said I won't let her control me like that anymore. It is not changing her choices and only hurting me.

I spent the last 2 years with the mindset... "if I do this right, or work on this... then my W will probably love me again and everything will be fine... there is no way that she will walk away from what we have." This time around... I KNOW it is her and not me. There is absolutely nothing more that I can do to coerce, convince, invite, push, or wish her to stay. It is her choices and in God's hands.

I have to think about Plan B as not being a "plan" of action to stop my W from leaving. It is a plan of action to protect myself and allow me to heal and move forward.

I've worn a chain around my neck for most of the last 2 years which says "love is patient". Every time I started to get frustrated... or every time I started to stand up for myself, I would read that chain and figure that I had to sit down and be patient. It would all work out.

I took it off for a couple of days, but I am wearing it again. But now, the message is not that I am patient for my WW. I will be patient with God... and he is patient with us.

My action will be to protect my children and myself. To move forward. And to be receptive in the future for God's will in my life. This might include my WW and it might not. That will be her choice. She is giving up more than she can imagine.

Shaden

Just had the boys over for an hour and a half. We watched an episode of Heroes and joked around.

When I brought them back to WW's, my younger son had a big grin on his face. WW thought something was up... kept asking what we talked about, why he was grinning. I actually have no idea. I said goodnight to them all... gave WW a little hug. She said that was kind of limp. I was grinning when I left...

I almost joked about OM and thought... "what? the hug... or the twinkie?"

When she calls me tonight... to discuss the boys hockey, I might just have to tell her what I was grinning about.

Would that be a lovebuster, if it is said without anger???

I'm ready to say that she has got her wish... she has lost me. But I know this is just the top of the coaster ride, that tomorrow or the next day, I will be thinking the opposite.

I did call a lawyer today... one who knows my parents well. He is going to call me back tomorrow and set up an appointment. I will cancel my Thursday meeting with WW. She hasn't mentioned anything about it. I would be surprised if she does... she always avoids those types of things because that would be bringing responsibility home.

Shaden

One thing I can say. There is a HUGE difference in my behaviour around WW this time as opposed to 2 years ago. Back then I was moping and crying and unfocused. I was a wreck.

This time... besides showing some anger when I first found out and when she was upset about me telling the boys... and once my voice cracked behind some tears when I told her I still loved her... that I wouldn't have much more time to say that... Otherwise, I have been happy and friendly and confident.

Tonight when I called, she was napping and sounding very depressed. I bet she is feeling some shame or guilt. Or maybe OM didn't call when he said he was going to ... probably has another GF in his hometown... or other GFs online. It would be hard to juggle them all. The other option is that she is so tired because she was up all night talking to OM.... their loss.

Shaden

I spoke to my WW tonight about the boys hockey. She doesn't want to. I just said I would do whatever I had to do when I had the boys. I will be registering them tomorrow.

I did ask her about the hug... she said I guess I understand why I would give a "lame" hug. I said I was laughing about it... that I didn't know if she meant the hug or twinkie.

She got it immediately. She said, I'm not going to discuss this with you. I said, why not. I'm not yelling at you or anything. I proceeded to say that I am very concerned for the boys and for her. I am totally fine. I am concerned in that she is going to get very hurt. How could any guy, knowing she is married with 2 kids, after a couple of conversations be saying the types of things to her... and anyone in their right mind not be afraid of this.

There was more said along these lines with the same calm tone.

The conversation did not end angry... but she was defintely defensive and unimpressed that I was sharing my opinion.

I really don't think this will get me anywhere... except I was wanting to have one conversation like this without getting angry myself... to show that I was not affected by her anymore.

Was this a mistake?

I do want Plan B to come quickly... but now have to wait to set things up with a lawyer. Is there a way I can go to Plan B before the details are finalized?

The problem is for me that I know I am still addicted to her and want that feeling gone. I don't like feeling out of control around her. I was in pretty good shape with this conversation, but at the end, I still felt pretty crappy. She was saying that she will be putting the kids first but that she knows what she is doing with OM and it is not my business.

I just simply said... My belief is that the best thing for my boys is for them to be in their family, and I don't believe you have done everything possible to let that happen before you are moving on... so it is not my belief that you are putting them first in this circumstance.

She did not respond... except to say that she does not want to discuss it further.

I remained calm. But is any of this just hurting my position?

Shaden

I sure hope being friends and having an amicable divorce isn't your goal here Shaden.

You should be trying to tear her throat out legally through her wallet. Is that enough guidance for your settlement meeting?

What is your goal here? Reconcilliation or divorce?

You were trying to educate her.



Yes

That isn't part of Plan A....or Plan B for that matter.

But, no one does a perfect Plan A.

Praying for you and your family!

~ Marsh

BK...

I have been contacting my lawyer and will be going hard through him. I was all set to settle with my W tomorrow night and then go dark... but now I have to wait until lawyers settle everything... that could take a while.

I have no idea what to do in the meantime.

My conversation last night had one goal... it might have been the wrong goal... but it was to show calm in a conversation about her and OM. I was not angry or pushy. I stated my points and asked questions. It still might have been a mistake, but was not done to have an amicable divorce. I wanted her to see that I was not falling apart anymore over her.

I would like to go to Plan B as soon as possible.

Are you saying no more discussions about OM and WW?

Marsh...

I see your point about educating. I understand and agree.

thanks for your prayers.

I am good at being the nice guy and knowing how to be kind. But now I'm heading into uncharted waters for me. I have no clue how to act right now before Plan B is in place.

I did stand up and say that the boys will be playing hockey as I felt it was important for them. I said that I would be doing everything I could to get them there when I have them. My WW wanted to skip this year because she is too busy now with her second job. She wouldn't have to have a 2nd job if she kept our family together.

I'm just not so good at cutting through fog-battle. In the past I've always become defensive or angry or I've been the one apologizing. This time I wanted to show something different. But I still LB'd.

Any advice on what to do between now and Plan B? I don't know what Plan A looks like in the midst of a separation and her Affair.

It's been recommended here that I stand back and let God do the work now... move forward with my life.

But I have not yet exposed to OM's family... or shown proof to WW's family.

Should this be happening still?

This has not been about a lack of willingness, but opportunity so far.

Shaden

Advice and 2x4s are all welcome.

I want reconciliation... not an amicable divorce.

I have no idea what my action is now while I wait.

Shaden

I guess my messages here sound a little desperate.

I'm not doing too bad... it's just that I know that I will not be able to do anything to help my WW once I'm in Plan B and I want to know that I have done everything possible before that time.

I thought about sending another message to SIL, and adding some proof. But I stopped myself because I have said that I will trust God.

I do trust God... but I also know that he expects action with faith. I'm looking for some guidance on what that action might be. To sit still... or to keep exposing.

Shaden

Shaden, sometimes faith requires ACTION. If you have proof of her affair and need to send it to convince someone, then by all means send it!

Can you rush this seperation agreement so you can go into Plan B? I think you have a good strategy, you just have to stick with it and focus on pushing it through as quickly as possible in order to get into Plan B.

Are you getting any sleep, Shaden?

Plan A is where you begin to lovingly detach from her, (CLICK HERE TO READ BR'S THREAD ABOUT DETACHMENT) while you try to meet as many needs of hers as you can.

It is also a time where you expose.

Carrot and the stick.

FYI: There have been others here who have worked a great Plan A while separated from their cheating spouses.



Why would you need to stay in Plan A any longer than you want to if your lawyer is going to settle your legal matters?

You can go dark while he does what he needs to do.

~ Marsh

Hi Mel.

I'm doing much better tonight.

I keep getting mixed messages from so many people... but generally I am trying to keep to any advice you have given.

I am in agreement that action is required.

1) I am meeting with a lawyer on Friday afternoon.
2) I have postponed my meeting with WW to settle things... didn't give an explanation except that I'm pretty busy this week.
3) I am making a call for a family counsellor... my sons need to see one with me. My older son was extremely upset this morning... crying at school... came home and stayed home for the day.
4) I will gather the information on OM's children (teenagers or older), and OM's SIL (who needs to know about her husband talking with WW's sister).
5) I am considering calling WW's work HR dept. and telling them the situation... that she is probably using work time for emails.
6) I am considering sending the proof I have to WW's sister and Mom.
7) I will expose to other close friends.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

Shaden

Mel.

thanks for asking about my sleep.

I am getting enough. I'm doing so much better than the last time around 2 years ago.

Most of my anxiety is over trying to sort out what are the right things to do... second-guessing myself.

I have the occassional very low moment... but after all the pain and work over the past couple of years... it just seems a whole lot easier this time.

...easier to open my eyes and see that she is not getting any better and her behavior is destructive to herself, and to her family.

...easier to see that this is not about me. I have been a good husband. This is totally her.

I was thinking today about how we really don't have any control over the situation. She may or may not come back to me... and it doesn't really matter what I do. (There are better and worse choices for my actions though) She might have the strength or life-changing moment in which she realizes where she has gone... and I hope there will be someone there to help her. But she might never see it and continue down her path.

She might live out the rest of her life with some form of happiness... going on holidays and spending time with friends. She might be "happy". But she will never know the gift of being faithful and having the respect of building a strong family.

Shaden

Hi Marsh,

Thanks for your reminder of the carrot and the stick.

I can't go dark until I have some issues settled... mainly the schedule with the boys. If I go dark before the lawyers settle this, I will have to come out again which hurts Plan B from the way I understand it.

However... if the main goal of Plan B is to protect myself, then maybe it is not such a bad idea to head there quickly.

Shaden

Just wanted to get a thought off my chest.

This is WW's third affair?

Do you really see her changing??

Sure...it happens, but if you were a betting man wouldn't you lay odds that this may be who she really is and it's not ever going to get better?

If divorce is the most likely outcome...wouldn't it be wise to put yourself in the best possible situation within which to win, at the very least, the maximum amount of custody you can handle?

You signed for the condo...does that mean the deed (not just the mortgage) is in your joint name?

If so...why not consider a plan wherein you just uncerimoniously move back in to YOUR home. The condo is a better place from which to fight for custody as it is OWNED and NOT a apartment. Plus, it's where the children sleep at night. You could move back in without telling her a word about it. Do it while she's out. Keep the apartment, for a short time, as a place SHE can run to if she so desires. Further, doesn't Canada require a 12 month minimum separation? Well, you could reset that date with just one night together at home. You can give the following as your reason: I moved out so we could have distance and think clearly about our relationship. I wanted you to miss me and see how important I was to this home. It was meant to be a RECOVERY tool...NOT, a separation leading to divorce. It was NOT meant to give you space so you could pursue other men. Seeing that my purposes for the separation are no longer necessary...I moved home. This is our home. My wife and kids are all here and I need to see that everything is being taken care of. I know how crazy things get when you are having an affair.

Another factor may be that you will be viewed by the court as the one that left and already agreed to the current custody arrangement. They will see no reason to alter your previously agreed to plan. They won't see your separation the way you do.

You may have to put off Plan B until SHE moves out or both stay put and fight it out. Sure the marriage is a priority but I think the children are more so. WW and her family are NOT going to be raising those kids properly so somebody has to. The more time you can win with them the better.

Mr. Wondering

Shaden:


Mr.W's thoughts have serious merit for exactly the reasons he states. I have to chime in and express agreement.

There is nothing wrong with a serious plan. Devise the plan and then work it.

Larry

Shaden

I echo the above. Forget about WW, she is in God's hands now.

Protect first and foremost the children from having to be raised anymore than necessary by a selfish WW who will undoubtely not raise them properly (to coin Mr. W). She will be in and out of relationships, jobs, etc. You have been the glue in her life more than likely and when you are no longer there she will unravel and become worse than ever imo. Your children will suffer under her raising and example. Divorce is ugly, no way around it. Form a battle plan that firsts looks out for the future of your children and secondly shelters your heart from more pain, in that order.

Exactly Larry,

I can hear the fogbabble already.

"Well, ya know, we WERE already separated when I started talking to OM and the marriage was already over. If not for Canada's laws requiring a year wait we'd have divorced immediately."

You separated, NOT as a precursor to divorce, but in an attempt to SAVE your marriage.

Now that that purpose no longer seems to be HER intent you are moving back HOME. Nothing will make your intent clearer than moving back home. If she wants a pre-divorce separation, SHE moves out.

Mr. W

Look Shaden, as Mr.W says, I am from Texas and since I have lots of pecans in my yard, that makes me nuts. See, by moving home with ATTITUDE as Mr.W instructs, YOU are in control, not her. Take charge of your life and as a first step, do the totally unexpected, righteous act that will throw her into confusion.

Out of that confusion, you can expect verbal abuse. Don't buy it or enable it, just stay the course with a smile and anti-babble verbages. Lock it into your mind and do it.

Mr.W has made a terrific suggestion. Really think about it.

Larry

Larry, Mr. W.

Thanks for the advice.

I am going to see a lawyer tomorrow afternoon and will discuss the legalities with him around this.

One concern is that I have not technically lived in the condo as of yet. I did stay overnight 2 or 3 times at her invitation. I did sign the mortgage... I can't remember if that also included the deed, but I would assume so. I went to the lawyers office with her.

Until this morning, I did not have a key for the condo. My son accidentally left his behind when he slept over last night. (coincidence, or a little divine intervention?) I think I will go tonight and get it copied.

This would be an extremely tough assignment to follow through. I have not been as good as I should be for not being baited into debates or arguments... but I still can remain pretty calm in most arguments... just end up saying justifying, preaching, or teaching. I have always controlled my tongue and never swore at or called my wife any foul name. I'll need to read up on my babble breaking speech ahead of time.

Mel... what do you think about their plan? How will this work with Plan B? Obviously it would be delaying plan B, but is this an act of faith that should be considered?

Everyone is welcome to chime in.

Shaden

As to the comments about whether I should be staying or not in this marriage... I totally agree that this is seeming to be who my Wife is... no longer is it just something she has done... and, by the way, it is her 4th affair.

I am not looking to the future of divorce with fear any longer... I am certain of that. I don't like the prospect of it, but there are so many other opportunities out there for me without all the pain and sacrifice.

I am staying firm for 3 reasons.

1... I firmly believe that a good, faithful family is the best scenario for my sons and I will work towards this until I know that everything possible has been done.

2... I do love my W... not my WW. I know there is someone in there that I married and loved worth fighting for. If God turned his back on any of us who betrayed him, ignored him, or forgot him, then where would we be. I don't want to see her ruin her life. I know I can't save her, but I can make it possible that she might have a chance of saving herself.


3. Love is supposed to be unconditional. This is changing in its meaning for me. I have been a doormat and too patient...not acting. But it does not change the fact that I made a vow and will perservere. At some point, I will say enough... I have done everything possible and both God and myself will be pleased with my efforts. But I don't believe I am at that point yet. If I had been tougher the last time, and this is still happening, then maybe I would be ready to walk away. I am standing firm for me.

I have grown so much in the last 2 years and I can see the beginnings of another transformation happening in my attitudes, beliefs, and abilities. I am almost looking forward to this battle... to see a stronger me emerge.

I will have days when my weakness and fears will show through... But they are getting fewer and fewer.

I will perservere.

(ok, was that a little overdone and melodramatic???)

Mr. W.

I just spoke to my parents. My Father is a minister, a social worker, and a top Executive in the Church they are involved in. He feels your move-in idea is extremely "compelling" (his word). They just happen to be flying into town tomorrow morning, so I've asked him to join me in meeting with the lawyer as he knows the lawyer well and can assist me in building a plan.

What about the possibility of me moving in, and then my WW changing the locks the next time I go to work? What would be my response to that scenario?

Mel. I have partially written a new note to my MIL and SIL including some proof. Should I still send it if I am planning this new step?

Shaden

Hopeandpray.

Thank you for adding your advice here. I agree that I need to shelter and protect my children first. As I said earlier, I believe that a STABLE homelife and family is the 1st option for doing this. If my WW does not choose stability, then I am their best hope.

Please continue to offer your advice.

Shaden

Marsh,

I missed your input earlier. I would not be able to go dark without finalizing with the lawyer as I do not have any schedule for visitation setup. I could do that, but if there were problems in the law process, I might have to come out of the darkness (which might put WW further into the darkness <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

Thanks for being here. I will also look up the carrot and the stick again, it's been a while since I read it.

Now I am leaving to go copy a key.

Shaden

Remembering Heartsore's experience (has anyone heard from him BTW?)... should I stop discussing these plans on here?

I don't think my WW will come here... but who knows.

Shaden

If she changes the locks...so what.

IF your name is on the deed you can break into your own home anytime you want.

Might want to leave a window or two unlocked somewhere for just such an emergency.

Further...make several copies of the key. She might think stealing your housekeys off your keychain might keep you out. Also, be very wary of the fake call to the police saying you attacked her or hit her. Some WW's have gone as far as hitting themselves and calling the police. Might want to wire yourself for sound. A recorder in your pocket might protect you (and get wife for filing a false police report).

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I know you've emailed me in the past. Just to be sure you are using the same one...can you email me again??

I have some keys... hopefully they work.

I thought about the possibility of a call to the police. Another lawyer recommended this to SIL when she was separating from her H. He drank and was often smashing up the house, though. I didn't even get into any fights in all the years I played hockey... what a wuss.

But... I will protect myself from her desperation.

Is there any thought on how moving back to the home might affect the kids... other than the positive results long term. Anything I should be prepared for that anyone can think of?

Shaden

That would be interesting to know what my sons would think if WW did lock me out of the house... hmmmmm.

And if she tried to tell them she was scared I would hurt her... I doubt it would fly... they have always seen me treat her with kindness and respect.

Shaden

You are busy answering your own questions and moving forward. I concur in all you said <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Placing an entitled WW who has had four (4) affairs of one sort of the other at the disadvantage is a really good thing. Actions have consequences (or should), time for her to enjoy a few.

Larry

Had a great evening with my 2 sons. They are now in bed sleeping.

When I picked them up, I was at my most pleasant best. WW was wondering what was up. I just said I had a great week and day. Gave her a hug.

Later, when the boys called to say goodnight... it was very late, around 1:00 am. WW had been on the phone for a while. She sounded tired... I said so and asked how she was. She sounded very cold. My gut is that my emails to MIL and SIL were unsuccessful and MIL was telling her about it. If that is so, I am not surprised. MIL would rather take the easy route then look at what is really needed. She can't condemn her daughter without condemning herself. She would rather her daughter just be happy then safe and good... that would create conflict and would be bad for her heart.

The idea that my emails had failed had a very short negative affect on me. Then I remembered that this was a war with a long fight. This was not a setback, as I did not really expect their help.

On to planning for the next skirmish.

Shaden