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noodle #1935690 09/10/07 09:28 AM
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Yep,

You tell the truth...provide the evidence..and get out of the way.

I was referring to trying to argue or pursuade people to support you and your position when their flesh struggles against that judgement.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935691 09/10/07 11:26 AM
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Quote:

Ok...please remind me again why it was a good idea to expose to my sons.




No need to remind you... your son already did....

Quote:

My son did tell me yesterday that he was glad he knew. before knowing he had so many questions that were not answered. now he can understand why we are separating.




You did it for them. Period. Not to hurt her. It became apparent that her actions were directly affecting them in ways that were confusing and harmful... and they needed to know the truth.

Shaden, you know I'm a card carrying member of the anti-exposure league, right? Even I think you did the right thing by telling your kids.

Your younger son's reaction is troubling, though... Bottling everything up and trying to smooth it all over. May I recommend the book "The Truth About Children and Divorce" by Dr. David Emery? Even if you don't end up D'd... the book may help you get inside your son's head and figure out ways to help him through this.

Quote:

I just said that I hope he still loves his Mom.. he said yes... that they are close and always will love her.




The defense rests, your honor!!!


"I require more from my spouse than behaving well in order to avoid pain." (guess who)
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Shaden,
I think you did the right thing by telling your sons the truth. In the long run it is best. I am also a grey thinker, but only when it comes to this adultery situation. Everything else is pretty black and white. I think for me the grey is masking simple fear and not even masking it very well. Conquering the fear is essential, now and going forward, whether your WW turns around or not.
All the Best-


BS (me) 40
WW 38
DD 10
DS 7
Got "I don't love you" letter 8/05.
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Noodle, you said...

"Will you obey God on this issue or will you not?"

I want to obey God... the problem is in knowing what he is telling me to do.

The past 2 years I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do. I kept getting the message... "patience". I felt I was supposed to love my W and let her heal in her own time. I now know that I was mistaken. Sometimes faith requires action. So now I am acting. But how does one know when enough action has happened and when we are to stop and be patient... waiting on God?

My problem is not in the willingness... I have been willing all along. It is in getting differing messages and being unsure. As soon as I know what to do or what is right... I get off the fence pretty quickly and it becomes black or white. My problem is always seeing the other side and wondering if that is the right side. My judgement sucks.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935694 09/11/07 03:38 AM
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Thanks, Smart Cookie.

Anti-exposure league??? are you kidding? I've got to check back and see some of your debates with Melodylane... I bet they were pretty good.

I knew when I typed that message that someone would say exactly what you said... I was already giving my answer. Often my head will tell me one thing... and know it is right... but my feelings or fear... whichever is stronger at the time will be crying out against.

I just needed some reassurance. I do know I did the right thing and my son confirmed it.

My WW is just screaming foul because she looks bad. However, she had a father (one of a few) who trash talked her Mom when they split (he had affairs of his own... so did she). Eventually he forced my WW to choose to not see him anymore because of it. So she has been extra paranoid about this. So, although I realize it is her protecting herself... I also understand she might have more fear about this than the average person. But it wasn't enough to keep her from making the poor choices she has made.

Thanks for the info about the book. I just realized that I've done so much reading about adultery, about marraige, about communication, and making myself a stronger person or with more self esteem... etc., but I have not done any reading (except a couple of internet articles) about protecting or supporting my children through this crisis. Shame on me.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935695 09/11/07 03:42 AM
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Lostherlove...

thank you for the encouragement. You are absolutely right that it is fear that keeps us on the fence or thinking grey. We are afraid to make a stand because we are exposed if we are wrong... so it is much safer to stand in the gray. But this leaves us lost in so many ways.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935696 09/11/07 03:45 AM
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Ok, what kind of divorced 48 yr. old man types in an email... with a picture of him with shades on sitting in his car... saying "you just want to see my twinkie"

Come on. Is he back in his teenage years? I think they are both reliving when she was 7 and he was 19... except now moved to rated PG rather than G.

That's when I stopped reading the emails... I had seen enough of what she wanted to do... and I didn't need to see her reply to that one.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935697 09/11/07 03:59 AM
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Ok.

I will be meeting with her to go over finances and schedule on Thursday night.

Should the Plan B letter be handed to her at the close of that meeting? Or should I wait to ensure there are no final details or communication about the details?

Also... I will go to the meeting with an idea of what I want. I will give her only one meeting to meet my expectations. If we cannot decide, then I will have a lawyer draw up an agreement.

I'm sure she will want to have a family member with her. Would you recomend I bring someone myself? To me, this shows weakness. (Hey WW, I'm going to bring my father to protect me)... actually... he won't be in town until Friday, so that won't work.

I'll write a plan B letter tomorrow night and post on here for comments.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935698 09/11/07 04:08 AM
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Other than questioning if she is still denying the affair, I have been continuing to be pleasant with her. When I went Sunday night to pick up the kids, she had just dropped an ironing board on her toe. I stopped to check it out if it were broken. Today, she emailed me to tell me that she had not broken it... but thanked me for checking it out.

She also told me Sunday night that she does love me (I am assuming she means as a friend). This tells me that the cake-eating is still there and she might just see a difference when I am no longer available to her... and when I suddenly am not needing her.

I'm having a good day today (mostly). Had a lot of fun at work and a lot of great conversation and laughter.

I also have friends coming out of the woodwork offering to go for coffee, to a movie, or over for dinner.

And... my work is paying for me to take an acting course, go figure. I am a retail manager, but they feel (and I agree) that I would improve on my leadership presence and public speaking by taking an improv and acting course. Great idea. I will also be joining a toastmaster club.

I will be keeping myself busy... and working to improve myself. The last hurdle (which my W and I will be discussing tomorrow night) is whether to put the kids in hockey this year or not. The cost is going to be tough, but even worse is the time. My work is extra busy... and I cannot afford to take my focus away from that right now... I have too often in the past. My WW will be working a full time and part time job. But this is very important to the boys. I could just say that this is another consequence of my WW's actions... but this would just be hurting the boys.

Good times, Good times...

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935699 09/11/07 04:09 AM
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forgot to mention in the last post... I am only being pleasant to plan A until Plan B is in effect.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935700 09/11/07 07:02 AM
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Quote:

Ok.

I will be meeting with her to go over finances and schedule on Thursday night.

Should the Plan B letter be handed to her at the close of that meeting? Or should I wait to ensure there are no final details or communication about the details?

Also... I will go to the meeting with an idea of what I want. I will give her only one meeting to meet my expectations. If we cannot decide, then I will have a lawyer draw up an agreement.




I am thinking you should go to the lawyer so he can play the pitbull and negotiate favorable conditions for you and your sons. If you try to do this then the battle is between you and her. And that is the last thing you want on her mind before you go dark. If the lawyer does it, then he is the bad guy.

Would you be able to hardball negotite with your own wife? For example, you should not be paying her any money [not for her condo, car, alimony, etc] and should probably get primary custody of your kids. Can you negotiate all that without hard feelings?

Remember also that you need to leave GOOD FEELINGS on the table when you go dark, so strategically, it would be best to get this all negotiated and in place and THEN go dark when the dust has settled. Get the plan in place and work out all the kinks before you go dark, lessening the need for any communication.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hi Mel.

I hear ya, but not sure I agree.

My WW just went through this with her older sister... she went with her sis to almost every lawyers visit.

She does know that the lawyers draw things out and will push towards tougher results... but they still go with what the client is asking for.

Contrary to her actions, my WW isn't a stupid person. She knows that I still have control when the lawyers are doing the work. Doesn't this just look phony and manipulative?

I'm not against the "going tough" with the lawyer... I am against drawing this out. It took the lawyer a couple of weeks just to get the papers out. Months later, she has finally settled.

As to the money... should child support be given of any amount? I was going to drastically reduce now that I will have shared custody.

I am thinking that I will go with 50% custody. Right now, she has them 90%+ (until last week, I was always there with them)... this will be a drastic change for her and the boys. Also, with my schedule at work and taking courses, etc., I don't know if I can be there for them more than that.

... or does primary custody not necessarily mean the amount of time, but gives other rights???

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935702 09/11/07 12:47 PM
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"I don't know if I can be there for them more than that."

that didn't sound quite right. I can make whatever choices I have to, the boys are the most important part of my life right now.

But being realistic with how my life is today...


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935703 09/11/07 01:10 PM
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back again on that "I don't know if I can be there more than that" crap I spouted.

If I was not in this sich, but in a different one... one where my W died... I would need to be there 100% for my kids. I must look at it in that way. My W is dead right now. The kids need me 100% of the time.


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935704 09/11/07 01:16 PM
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Today I am starting to take control.

Up to today I have been constantly checking my W's emails for any sign of "action". I did check today to see what SKYPE was... something OM mentioned. and was searching for her on it. At first I thought it was some kind of anagram for dirty talk or something... but it is an internet phone. My sons said my WW went out last night to pick up an earset... for her new job... which is true (I think)... but it also recomends an earset for SKYPE.

My WW has locked me out of facebook... but I was trying to guess her new password.

Anyway... I am now choosing (and I've done a few times today) that every time I am tempted to check her email, guess her password, or in any way check on her movements... that I will choose for peace and strength and faith. Every time I obsess and look I give her power over me. I will not be that person anymore.

Those that do... please pray for me and my family.

(and those that don't... it's not too late to start )
Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935705 09/11/07 03:24 PM
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This is the downside of surveillance.

I am all for "snoopery" which supports your perception that...yep...something is up...but it CAN become very obsessive if you don't put limits on it.

People tend to become so focussed on snooping that they stop moving foreward in their OWN lives.

I'd be willing to bet that you have spent more time fine combing your WWs emails than you have improving your own position.

It happens. Here's what you can do.

1 Tell yourself the truth. There is no reason at this point for you to be trying to figure out her passwords...you already have an accurate perception of reality. Everything IS what it seems to be.

2 Look at what ELSE is going on during those times.

Is it just before bed? When you feel lonely? When you feel anxious?

3 Get your ducks in a row.

Get your own plan in action.

4 Get a life dude.

You need to be getting out. Socialising. Redecorating. Take a class. Do SOMETHING to occupy your mind.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once ~Shakespeare
noodle #1935706 09/11/07 06:33 PM
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Thanks, Noodle.

That is pretty much what I was thinking this morning when I decided "no more".

I am working on a plan..., I am signing up for a course, and I have several friends coming out of the woodwork asking me to get out with them or to their house. (This can be hard as most of them have families... but it's the life I need to get used to).

The problem was... it's tough to find a friend to hang out with when you get home and 3:30 AM from work and can't sleep. I was on the computer until about 6AM. When I had some sleep I thought about it and said I won't let her control me like that anymore. It is not changing her choices and only hurting me.

I spent the last 2 years with the mindset... "if I do this right, or work on this... then my W will probably love me again and everything will be fine... there is no way that she will walk away from what we have." This time around... I KNOW it is her and not me. There is absolutely nothing more that I can do to coerce, convince, invite, push, or wish her to stay. It is her choices and in God's hands.

I have to think about Plan B as not being a "plan" of action to stop my W from leaving. It is a plan of action to protect myself and allow me to heal and move forward.

I've worn a chain around my neck for most of the last 2 years which says "love is patient". Every time I started to get frustrated... or every time I started to stand up for myself, I would read that chain and figure that I had to sit down and be patient. It would all work out.

I took it off for a couple of days, but I am wearing it again. But now, the message is not that I am patient for my WW. I will be patient with God... and he is patient with us.

My action will be to protect my children and myself. To move forward. And to be receptive in the future for God's will in my life. This might include my WW and it might not. That will be her choice. She is giving up more than she can imagine.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935707 09/11/07 09:58 PM
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Just had the boys over for an hour and a half. We watched an episode of Heroes and joked around.

When I brought them back to WW's, my younger son had a big grin on his face. WW thought something was up... kept asking what we talked about, why he was grinning. I actually have no idea. I said goodnight to them all... gave WW a little hug. She said that was kind of limp. I was grinning when I left...

I almost joked about OM and thought... "what? the hug... or the twinkie?"

When she calls me tonight... to discuss the boys hockey, I might just have to tell her what I was grinning about.

Would that be a lovebuster, if it is said without anger???

I'm ready to say that she has got her wish... she has lost me. But I know this is just the top of the coaster ride, that tomorrow or the next day, I will be thinking the opposite.

I did call a lawyer today... one who knows my parents well. He is going to call me back tomorrow and set up an appointment. I will cancel my Thursday meeting with WW. She hasn't mentioned anything about it. I would be surprised if she does... she always avoids those types of things because that would be bringing responsibility home.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935708 09/11/07 10:02 PM
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One thing I can say. There is a HUGE difference in my behaviour around WW this time as opposed to 2 years ago. Back then I was moping and crying and unfocused. I was a wreck.

This time... besides showing some anger when I first found out and when she was upset about me telling the boys... and once my voice cracked behind some tears when I told her I still loved her... that I wouldn't have much more time to say that... Otherwise, I have been happy and friendly and confident.

Tonight when I called, she was napping and sounding very depressed. I bet she is feeling some shame or guilt. Or maybe OM didn't call when he said he was going to ... probably has another GF in his hometown... or other GFs online. It would be hard to juggle them all. The other option is that she is so tired because she was up all night talking to OM.... their loss.

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
Shaden #1935709 09/12/07 12:33 AM
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I spoke to my WW tonight about the boys hockey. She doesn't want to. I just said I would do whatever I had to do when I had the boys. I will be registering them tomorrow.

I did ask her about the hug... she said I guess I understand why I would give a "lame" hug. I said I was laughing about it... that I didn't know if she meant the hug or twinkie.

She got it immediately. She said, I'm not going to discuss this with you. I said, why not. I'm not yelling at you or anything. I proceeded to say that I am very concerned for the boys and for her. I am totally fine. I am concerned in that she is going to get very hurt. How could any guy, knowing she is married with 2 kids, after a couple of conversations be saying the types of things to her... and anyone in their right mind not be afraid of this.

There was more said along these lines with the same calm tone.

The conversation did not end angry... but she was defintely defensive and unimpressed that I was sharing my opinion.

I really don't think this will get me anywhere... except I was wanting to have one conversation like this without getting angry myself... to show that I was not affected by her anymore.

Was this a mistake?

I do want Plan B to come quickly... but now have to wait to set things up with a lawyer. Is there a way I can go to Plan B before the details are finalized?

The problem is for me that I know I am still addicted to her and want that feeling gone. I don't like feeling out of control around her. I was in pretty good shape with this conversation, but at the end, I still felt pretty crappy. She was saying that she will be putting the kids first but that she knows what she is doing with OM and it is not my business.

I just simply said... My belief is that the best thing for my boys is for them to be in their family, and I don't believe you have done everything possible to let that happen before you are moving on... so it is not my belief that you are putting them first in this circumstance.

She did not respond... except to say that she does not want to discuss it further.

I remained calm. But is any of this just hurting my position?

Shaden


BH (Me) - 38
WW - 36
Married - 16 years
2 children - 10,12
DD1 - 05/30/05 - EA suspected, W wanted space
DD2 - 07/01/05 - EA/PA discovered & confronted WW
DD3 - 07/21/05 - Further contact discovered and now ended.
11/07/05 - exposed to OMW...
07/01/07 - separated to give "space". recovery was not progressing.
09/04/07 - DDAY all over... new OM.

Patience with God is Faith.
Patience with myself is Hope.
Patience with others is Love.
FAITH REQUIRES ACTION!
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