Yeah.. kids are great, and I love mine to pieces. I really think that's the hardest part about all of this. If she and I didn't have children together, then I'm almost certain I'd have walked away from this fight and just been done with the D already.

With the kids in the picture though, for me, it's worth fighting for. I know that if somehow she were willing to put the effort into recovery, we'd have a great marriage. Unless, or until she finds that within herself, I'm moving on with my life.

She called -again- last night, wanting some software for her laptop. She stayed on the phone with me while I looked around the house for it, for about 5 minutes. No real smalltalk, but I think I missed a Plan A opportunity to help her with her computer sitch. It's OS software and an office suite that she's worried about. I think maybe they're getting ready to do the move into the new house and she's trying to get her computer stuff together.. probably been mooching CoWorker's PC at her house... oh well.


The software goes with her PC anyhow, so I don't have a problem giving it to her, but she wanted to turn it into a conflict situation pretty early on in the conversation, asking why the office suite was uninstalled from the PC before I gave it back to her.. I simply explained that the office suite that was on there was mine, purchased well before the marriage.. she's got a 90 day trial on her restore DVD... hope it works out for her.

She really could have emailed me instead of calling though.. I'd almost have preferred that she did at this point.

I still am continually confused why she thinks everything has to be so confrontational.. everything has to be all nasty and aggressive.. I'm not wasting my time with such negativity anymore. I'm going to remain positive.. I've got a good life, and it's getting a little better every day.

I think what upset me most though was that she called during Heroes... *mutter* thank goodness for DVR.

James:

About this:

"I still am continually confused why she thinks everything has to be so confrontational.. everything has to be all nasty and aggressive.. "

Because if you are sweetness and light, it certainly removes her ability to BLAME you for HER wayward actions.

If you respond the same way, with agression and confrontation, then she is validated. "See, James is the Bad Guy! Look how MEAN he is to me!"

But you take that away.

By being pleasant.

By baking a Pie.

By SHOWING her the contrast.

She can take a PIE you baked to Thanksgiving dinner, but not the OM.

What type of conflict do you think that creates for HER.

So, stay on the sunny side of the street.

LG

Thanks LG

I'm not sure that I was confrontational last night. I don't consider what I said to her confrontational, but I did stand my ground on the Office software being mine. I'm giving her what's hers and her fathers which I think is fair.

I didn't offer to fix whatever problems she's having with the laptop, and I didn't ask about it. I know she's lying and just wants the office software because she said her dad wanted it.. well.. dad never gave us office software, so I'm sure he didn't ask for it. Then her going on about how it isn't on her laptop anymore tells me that -she- wants it.. now I'd have been happy to install it for her again if she'd have asked me nicely.

I may just call Dad tonight and ask what kinds of problems he's having with his PC.. I doubt he's having any, but if he is I'll go over and take care of it. WW on the other hand can deal with her own issues.. she walked out on her PC support guy.

LG is right she's confronting you as a way to incur anger. She's trying to make you out to be a bad guy so that she can justify her actions.

Just change the subject when she gets argumentive or be playful and joke about it.

Disarm with charm as I like to say.

Hehe.. thanks guys.

I guess I did kind of chuckle when she started ramping up for a good rant.. chuckled it off and said 'Hey now.. before we get all accusey.. you know that Office software was mine.. bought it when I first put the black PC together..'

That kinda defused her.. but her tone was cold and bitter after that... but no railing rants.

Hey James...been reading from afar for awhile. Been getting some help on my own sitch. Didn't want you to think I ducked out on ya.

I am very proud of the way you are handling her right now. There is no reason you should be drawn into her petty arguments anymore. They are simply childish attempts to re-engage you into the drama. Very good idea to stay charming. Show her what she is missing.

Not to be too pushy..but IMHO..when you asked to have DSD come with you I might have asked one more question. I would have asked if you could have called her to invite her personnaly. Then have gone on to take no politely. But I would have asked that. I think you gave up too quickly making it seem like you were just pushing a button instead of honestly wanting to see DSD. At least that is how I would have taken it. But you know your WW better...so who knows how she saw it.

Keep up the good work. You are doing great!

((((Guided))))

I've been keeping up with your sitch, and I've got to tell you, my heart goes out to you and your family. Thank you very much for taking the time and emotional energy to post here too.. I've valued your judgement from the beginning.

Honestly, it's getting easier to 'deal' with her when she does these things now, because I know that I am OK these days, and will be OK with or without her. I can react to her from the standpoint of being true to myself rather than trying to placate her in some bizarre effort to get her to show up at my door.

I ask all the time to talk to DSD.. I ask all the time to see her.. I ask if she's in the car when WW picks up DS.. I don't think there's any way she can take it as me pressing buttons. When the opportunity presents I make sure to ask her to give my love and hugs to the little girl. She isn't, but I still put it out there. Honestly it does 'feel' like going through the motions all the time.. but to be honest, DSD is about the only way she can really emotionally hurt me now.. and so I'm a little defensive yet. I'll make stronger efforts going forward... I've got a good chance over Christmas too.. since I'm taking at least DD and DS to DSD's grandparents house during my consecutive days over the break.

Just trying to Plan A, be pleasant, be loving without being pushy about it.. keeping pretty much to myself unless she's reaching out.. and otherwise moving on (in all ways but dating/seeing people).

James -

Thanks for your support. My family has a long way to go, but we will get there. Alot faster now that I have LA. She and mvg have been invaluable to me. I treasure them both greatly.

Well, if you are doing all of that to get intouch with DSD, I don't really see much more that you can do. I hope you get some time with her at Christmas. She is obviously missing you very much from what happened that time you did see her. Breaks my heart for those kids.

Thanks again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are getting some wonderful advice.. and honestly I'd love to be in your situation, as uncomfortable as it may seem to you right now.

I'm a little anxious about the holidays, but a vast majority of my holiday shopping is already checked off.. and this year, I don't have to worry about shopping for the one person who is always the hardest to shop for.. my WW.

The kids are -easy- to shop for.. and aren't shy about telling you what they want.

DSD is going to be a little difficult though.. it's been 1/4 of a year since I've really had time with her. Last thing we did together was High School Musical 2. I'm sure she's still into Disney.. so that won't be too hard to figure out I guess.

DD is entering adulthood.. had to make the first trip out to the drug store to get her 'supplies'... She's taking it well, and I'm not doing too bad a job given that I was -really- hoping WW would have been around to handle this particular 'life event' for my daughter. Dad's cool though.. he doesn't mind walking up to the register with that stuff.. even if there is a guy working it.

LMBO!!!!! She is very lucky to have you. Good for you.

Well, James, as much as I like you...I am not going to trade sitch with you. sorry. But you are doing good.

I hate Christmas shopping. I don't look forward to it. My kids aren't hard to buy for they just ask for so much that is it hard to decide what they want most. And usually mom is wrong. lol. oh well.

Best of luck to you during the holidays!

I agree with this.

Could be that she is still fence sitting- getting some EN's met by you and the rest by Wonderboy.

Fence sitting...

Well.. she has never been a very 'decisive' person.. heck, she usually can't decide what she wants to eat or watch on TV.

On the other hand, MEDC has pointed out several times in trying to talk me down from Plan A that she has -already- made her choice.. Wonderboy and Divorce.. and well, given her actions.. I can't exactly argue here..

On the third hand she keeps calling like this.. and if I were stupid I might buy that they are legitimate reasons to call.. but I think we can all see how thin these 'excuses' really are... so maybe she -is- fence sitting.

But then again.. she's not sugary on the phone either.. and the email about not calling her baby.. she's -aggressive-.. like she wants me to fight with her.. how is that fence sitting? What EN could possibly be met by getting me upset?

If you get mad and react, it just convinces the WS that they have made the correct choice. "See? I was right that you are a jerk. Look how you fly off the handle when all I said was xxx."

In Plan A (as explained to me by Jennifer) the WS gets put into conflict--on one hand they want to keep being wayward, but they also begin to recognize good things about the BS. They don't like feeling conflict, and it makes them angry.

So, 1) they may lash out. At whom will they lash out? Three guesses. And 2) they may bait the BS into arguments.

I definitely observed this. I don't think it was conscious, but the SCQ would make not-particularly-subtle slams on things that were important to me. It confused me until Jennifer helped me understand it.

She needs to continually justify her actions. If she makes you mad and you yell, No 1.She has something to talk to wonderboy about how bad you treat her. No. 2 She has her
justification for leaving you.

If you don't yell at her or engage her, she will eventually
turn it on Wonderboy.

Wonderboy loses in either case as long as you don't engage her.

GF

Hmm... that's encouraging I suppose.

Does this mean she has gone from Withdrawn to Conflict then? Honestly I haven't instigated a conversation since well before Thanksgiving and that was only to ask her about her plans so that I could make mine.. there's been no R talk for.. well.. almost 2 months now.

3 times in the past 7 days now she's gone and stirred the pot.. I've been pleasant, happy, and outwardly unaffected by things when dealing with her.. which is better than the puddle of hurt I've been for the 3 months prior... is this a reaction to that?

Look, I understand the effect it's -supposed- to have.. I guess I'm just suprised that it seems to really be working.

It's just that the way she's treating me when she -does- reach out to interact.. well, if it's done because she's still holding on to something.. she sure doesn't talk like it.. it's just nastiness.

I suppose it's better than the cold brick wall I was talking at in August though..

Trying to interpret the actions of an active wayward is a path to madness. Don't let your day be dictated by what she does, how she reacts, what she says.

Dangit Guy Smiley.. where's your technicolor dreamcoat?

I know I've mentioned to you guys that I have been oddly paying attention to the songs on the radio/alarm that get me up in the morning.

Here is this morning's... I didn't really give it much thought until just now.. how f'n appropriate:

Dave Matthews - The Space Between

You cannot quit me so quickly
There's no hope in you for me
No corner you could squeeze me
But I got all the time for you, love

The Space Between
The tears we cry
Is the laughter keeps us coming back for more
The Space Between
The wicked lies we tell
And hope to keep safe from the pain

But will I hold you again?
These fickle, fuddled words confuse me
Like 'Will it rain today?'
Waste the hours with talking, talking
These twisted games we're playing

We're strange allies
With warring hearts
What wild-eyed beast you be
The Space Between
The wicked lies we tell
And hope to keep safe from the pain

Will I hold you again?
Will I hold...

Look at us spinning out in
The madness of a roller coaster
You know you went off like a devil
In a church in the middle of a crowded room
All we can do, my love
Is hope we don't take this ship down

The Space Between
Where you're smiling high
Is where you'll find me if I get to go
The Space Between
The bullets in our firefight
Is where I'll be hiding, waiting for you
The rain that falls
Splash in your heart
Ran like sadness down the window into...
The Space Between
Our wicked lies
Is where we hope to keep safe from pain

Take my hand
'Cause we're walking out of here
Oh, right out of here
Love is all we need here

The Space Between
What's wrong and right
Is where you'll find me hiding, waiting for you
The Space Between
Your heart and mine
Is the space we'll fill with time
The Space Between...

James the ebst way in my mind to deal with waywards is to confuse them.

She's nasty because she has to turn all of that hatred of herself on some one as she's projecting. She's projecting her self-loathing on you.

The more smug and unaffected you are when you talk the more she'll be angry and the more she'll wonder what she can do to make you look bad or weak.

Anger is a sign of fear and fear is part of weakness.

Just stay calm cool and collected. The more you exclude someon the more they'll want to be let in.

She's angry becuase she wants you to argue, to brood, to be depressed because that's where she feels her strength through control. Once you take away her control she gets fearful because that was her method of getting you to do things or to adhere to her wishes.

Fear leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to... suffering.

Thank you jedi master..

Yeah.. you know this is really good advice Infodude.. Still, I'm doing what she says she wants me to do.. reinforcing that I am -listening- to her.. but I'm not getting all bent out of shape about it, which seems to be what she wants.

Of course in this case she's getting the software she asked for.. instead of the software she -really- wants..

Hmm... that's very tempting to ponder, but I'm going to get whapped by either a shovel, or a stop sign if I keep going down this path.. it's tempting though, and it gives me some hope. I'll just tuck that away in my back pocket for now.

Boredom sets in on Tuesday nights.. Think I'll do some laundry tonight after dinner with mom and DD.

James,

It's funny you should mention the jedi stuff as George Lucas is a BS.

The psychology of what your wife is doing is somewhat obvious. She's trying to gaslight you which means obviously she places a value on what you say which is better than no value by not talking.