Jerry,


Never is a really long time.

Let's take a look at what your wife has done.

Your wife has been Radically Honest with you. She has answered your question honestly even though she probably knows you wouldn't like the answer. That's pretty important.

Now, you have information and you have to decide what you want to do with it.

You can certainly decide that, given this information, you no longer want to be married to her because you can't stand the thought of living with your wife if she's doesn't share the same opinions, thoughts, and feelings you have.

You can certainly decide that, given this information, you're going to never be able to forgive or trust her again.

You can also decide that, given this information, you need to negotiate specific behaviors that will help you trust her and rebuild your marriage.

What you don't get to do is crawl inside her head and remake her thoughts in whatever image you want them to be. As much as it would be SOOOOOO much easier if we could get in there and rewire people -- we just can't do that. Not only that -- but as Dr. Harley puts it when he describes DJ's:


Your wife has done her part -- she has given you Radical Honesty about her thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. You, as a good non-LBing spouse, are to take those thoughts as they are and figure out what negotiations about behavior need to be POJA'd. You have to resist the urge to fix her -- she's not yours to fix.

It seems to me as though it's a huge leap from "We share different opinions on this topic." to ..therefore the only option is to give up.

Why is changing her mind the only thing you think will work? Why not try focusing on behavior instead? After all, her opinions aren't what got her into trouble... it was her choices and actions that did.

Why not try negotiating marital boundaries you can both live with? Why not try negotiating safety into your relationship -- (Hint: absolute transparency)? Sure, you run the risk she might do it to you again.... but even if you got divorced and remarried you'd run that risk with your new wife (she may cheat). You can't stop people from doing things that they are bound and determined to do. What you can do is build a life that you are both enthusiastic about, both happy with, and both feel safe in.

Those negotiations can start when you learn to let go of your need to control what she thinks, feels or wants and start talking, instead, about how each of you behaves.

Mys

Jerry, I really agree with Longhorn here.

Maybe it's time that you learn to respond to all her flailing about the affair with a simple well practiced "mantra";

"Wife, you may excuse the affair in any way that suits you, but as far as I am concerned, it was your decision to have an affair that is 100% responsible for my pain. It is time you started dealing with that reality"

God bless,
Gimble

Shinethrough,

Your W will not be able to achieve repentance for something she does not acknowledge.

Your feelings of safety in the M will be very difficult to nurture knowing that it’s based upon what you are making yourself believe vs. how she is demonstrating herself as trustworthy.

This is not something that you are ever going to convince her of. She will have to hear it through an IC or at least an objective third party.

She is obviously going to fight against ownership of her choices when it comes to you being the enlightening bringer of bad news to her fantasy world.

My guess is that she’s the kind of person that never wants to be viewed as flawed.

So, if I were you, I would give careful consideration to protecting yourself.

How do you do that? You establish boundaries.

You separate yourself from her financially first. This is done with the philosophy that if she can’t except responsibility for the actions of her own mind and body, then she certainly could claim the same for writing checks and using a debit card.

Then you establish self protective boundaries of trust in other aspects of your M.

You let her know that deceit, lying, embezzling, and other treachery are against the fiber of your moral being because you are honorable.

Don’t cut her with your words by any means, just tell her how you feel yourself about honesty and truth and how you insist that those qualities are fully integrated into your life.

She will, of course, have to make the decision weather she can live by those moral guidelines.

But the key here, is that you NEVER lower yourself to someone else’s moral standard based upon compromise. You KNOW what is right and you stick with it.

This is because you are 1000% responsible for your own actions and to think otherwise would mean you were a hypocrite.

With her current approach of ownership she could do anything immoral and blame it on anyone else. That does not support feelings of safety.

I hope this helps some.

Best regards,

You sure?

~ Marsh

My worry here is that it has been five years.

She continues to cling to the idea that "the devil (OM) made me do it".

I posted on LilSis's thread about people who steadfastly cling to illogical reasoning despite obvious evidence to the contrary. Often this is the case in criminal conduct, and I have now found that it also occurs in adulterous behavior quite often. Not so different - just that one is prosecuted and the other, well, they make gossip columns about superstars over it. Ugh.

There are any number of reasons for clinging to illogical reasoning.

I think in the specific case of adultery, a shameful behavior, many of the people who refuse to admit their own culpability are of the type who cannot openly admit to anyone any deep fault that would lead to such behavior.

I have a few ideas and musings on why they might be this way, and have talked to a couple of people on this topic who have been this type of person in the past and have been willing to actually tell me about their reasoning process. (Quite a coup, I think!)

One said it is protective of the self in the sense that they cannot face the tremendous amount of guilt that this would require them to accept if they were to actually admit their ownership of the act.

Another said that they feel they cannot open themselves to the judgement of others in this way, for fear that others will not be able to accept them with such deep faults.

Another said that this type of admission would require them not only to admit a wrong, but actually to alter their own behavior. This gets interesting! They did not want to alter their behavior, because this meant that OTHER PEOPLE would notice the change in behavior, comment on it, and they might be required to explain the change, and thus have to expose their own "faults" further. It was easier NOT TO CHANGE bad behavior and live with the consequences than to have to openly admit it was wrong and change it.

I really thought the last one was so circular and illogical it was one for the books. Maybe I need to write a book.


I guess I have to ask - after five years, does there come a point of moving off of the topic or putting it to rest? Is this the dealbreaker for you? Do you need to be right about this one thing, to the point where it is still going to be on the block five years from now? I cannot imagine arguing over the same thing for five years. I would be exhausted.

SB

Mys...I see where you are going with your post but IMHO, it is not all about behaviors and actions...it is about mindsets and feelings too.
Take it a bit further, and see if your reasoning holds up...her behaviors could be 100% okay right now...but would you trust her if she said her affair was justified??? I wouldn't.
IMHO...until she takes total responsibility for her affair she is exceptionally vulnerable for another one.
There is no reason to be patting a FWS on the back because she is doing what she should have been doing all along...being honest... I mean really...what has she accomplished except get back to a place where she is not betraying Jerry??? Honesty should be a cost of admission type of thing...not something to be commended for.
How is Jerry to be happy as you suggest when his FWW can't even take ownership of her wrong doings. Sorry, but to me that seems like putting your head in the sand and accepting things that should not be accepted. Even with BR on this thread saying her FWH will never give her what she needs...I mean come on people why do BS need to be doormats and accept whatever crumbs are being offered by the FWS? I for one would not be able to stay with a woman that wasn't able to take ownership of her betrayal of the marriage vows...I would rather be single and happy than to live with that reality.
\
JMHO

Thank you all who have responded to this post.
I feel like such a jerk to have even had to put this out there after so many years have past.
I always resisted to do this, lest some newbie come along anf think, "see it's hopeless" it's not going to happen.
I am sorry to be a picture of failure after all these years. When I hear mention of two years to recover, I bristle with the fact of 5 + years, and here I sit.

I'm almost sorry I started this thread. You are all correct in your asumtions, I know this, but this is what I will have to live with,.......or not I guess, but that is up for my cosideration.... ultimately, it comes down to what I can live with and accept, or not......
I truly thank you guys for your unbiased opionion.

All blessings,
jerry

Jerry, I think you are a living, breathing example of Dr. Harley's principle of just compensation and why people don't recover without it. Here you are, 5 long years after D-Day, not much better off than you were then. It is not in your best interest or your wife's to forgive her without just compensation. And the biggest portion of just compensation is honesty. You have not got that yet.

Her claim that she is "20% responsible" for the affair is a dishonest rationalization that absolutely precludes you from EVER finding out WHY this affair happened and taking steps to affair proof your marriage.

Without honesty there is no recovery, no trust - AS YOU CAN SEE. Being honest about a dishonest rationalization is not honesty, it iS dishonesty. You can never find out really WHY it happened and change that. She can never take steps to change something that she claims is utterly out of her control. [since she is an innocent "victim" of the affair.




Pasted from http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

So that brings us back to Rosies point that you can't change her. You can ask her to participate in the recovery of your marriage, but you can't FORCE her. Nor can you force her to be honest. It always comes back to you, Jerry, and what you can or can't accept. You are the only one here that you have the power and control to change. That is always the bottom line unfortunately.

Well said, Plank.

I agree that the WS must take 100% responsibility for their choices, without which the adultery could not have taken place. We're not talking about rape here - but adultery; and your wife is not a child - but an adult. She is totally responsible for the selfish, immoral choices she's made.

Furthermore, this victim mentality (rationalization) will most likely be employed again by her, to commit adultery again, unless she grows up and takes responsibility.

I have a female relative who is a serial adulterer. She has even become inappropriately involved with the boyfriends and husbands of her sisters. She keeps in touch with former lovers, even (especially?) after they marry another woman. BUT if/when one of 'her' men makes it clear they are not interested in her anymore, reject her flirting/contacting, or takes the side of their wife instead of her in a disagreement, she then accuses the man of 'molesting' her, taking advantage of her while intoxicated at a younger age. THEN she stops flirting with them and pretends she was their 'victim'... Oh and she still drinks even though males have supposedly taken advantage of her while intoxicated... The point I'm trying to make with this example is that sometimes people pretend they are a victim of something because they don't want to take responsibility for their OWN choices AND because they know they are providing themselves with a built-in excuse for the next time they do it again (um I mean the next time somebody victimizes them, yea that's it...)

So pay close attention to the excuses your WW is linking to her so-called victimiztion. Was she intoxicated? Is she mentally challenged? Is she extremely naive or too trusting? WHAT exactly ABOUT HERSELF enabled the predator to 'victimize' her? Why did the predator pick her out as a probable 'victim'? And therefore what changes does SHE need to make in order to ensure she will never again be 'victimized'? Because if she is still behaving exactly as she was before the adultery then she is going to end up doing it again and with the same excuse. Because she knows full well there is not a shortage of predatory males out there willing to take advantage of an intoxicated/naive/mentally challenged/whatever female.

IMHO I think the vast majority of women involved in adultery know full well they are doing something wrong but simply choose to continue for most of the same selfish and immoral reasons males adulterers have. BUT there is a tendency for female adulterers to play the victim. They have a much more subtle M.O. designed cleverly to protect their 'virtue'... And this plays right into the males preference to think of the female as sweet and innocent.

Actually I've personally witnessed many cases of adultery where the female was the better con-artist because the male was totally unaware of how conniving and controlling the female was being while all the while making him belive she was his 'innocent' victim. The male adulterer of course lies to the female and purposely tries to seduce her. DUH! ALL women (unless they truly are children or only have the mental capacity of a child) KNOWS that! SOME women, knowing this, DECIDE to exploit this as their justification for choosing to 'give in to' adultery. The female ALLOWS herself to be seduced, putting up just enough resistance to preserve the perception of her being a 'good girl' but of course not enough resistance to actually prevent the adultery. The male thinks he's sullied a 'good girl' (and depending on the male either feels guilty about that or scores himself more points) but secretly the female is gloating at pulling off her much more subtle, deeper deception. Of course it's a tad more difficult for such women to convince other women that they're 'innocent'...

(I think it's particularly frustrating - infuriating even -when it's a WH defending his 'innocent' OW to his BW...)

MEDC,


Maybe I wasn't being very clear in my post. I did say that with this information Shinethrough might decide that he can't remain married to her or trust her again. It's certainly one thing he could decide based on that information.

My basic point is that her mindset is her mindset. He knows full well what it is ... he seems to have known for some time.

No matter what, mindsets just aren't something you negotiate. If you attempt to do that, all you really end up doing is teaching people to tell you what you want to hear (more dishonesty) rather than teaching them to own up to what they're really thinking. You don't have to like what that person thinks - but wouldn't you really rather have the accurate information from which to make your decisions rather than lip service.

If he tries to "argue her" out of her point of view .. I predict that all will happen is that she'll stop telling him what she really thinks.


I agree which is why I suggested he think about what type of extraordinary measures might be required. Plank mentioned some in his post - I wasn't that specific other than complete, utter transaparency to the point that it's sufficiently difficult for her to hide illicit behaviors. But, sheesh, what a way of life. I'm not recommending it -- I'm tossing it on the table for consideration.


How you handle honesty is a way to predict how much more of it you're going to get in the future. If you want to play "I'm going to argue with you about what your opinion really is..." then all you're doing is creating another dysfunctional cycle.

Shinethrough asked a question and got some pretty bad news. Now, he has to figure out what to do about the news -- he can "argue" with her and try to change her mind - which we all know doesn't work. People change when they want to change for whatever reasons move them to change.

This isn't about patting anyone on anyone's back. This is about realistically looking at the evidence you have before you. No matter which way you fold it... it still says the same thing. Let's not pretend we can change if we just wish hard enough on our lucky star.


I never suggested he take crumbs. I suggested he take the information for what it is and do what he can do with it.

One thing is walk away.

But, if he's going to stay... he needs to understand that he's staying understanding the risks. He can do risk mitigation through behaviors but he's not going to get anywhere trying to make up her mind about anything. It's made up - and until she unmakes it - he should assume that this is the real deal.

If a there is a sign on a door that says Warning: Hungry Tiger! You can walk in the room. You can choose not to walk in the room. You can find someone you don't like (me, possibly) and throw that person in the room -- but assuming the tiger is really in there and is still hungry, wishing it away won't work.

It never does.

I'm not telling him to go or to stay. I imagine if he wants to go, that's pretty easy to figure out - file for divorce.

If he wants to stay, it's a much trickier proposition. If he wants to stay then the only real option I see is to try and create something that's functional. We can agree or disagree about whether or not that's possible (I don't know if it is or not). If it is, though, I'm darn sure that it's going to involve him living in the reality that this is what his wife *really* does think.



Now, Jerry, what do you want to live with? Do you want to figure out whether this opinion is important enough for you to walk away from your marriage? It hasn't been for 5 years. That makes me wonder whether there's some other (good, salvagable) things about your (F?)WW that we don't know about. Maybe there's stuff that makes you want to keep the marriage and not throw it under the bus because of this. Maybe there isn't.

If you want to keep the marriage, understand what you're working with. Figure out what you have to do to protect yourself as best you can. Realize that opinions, thoughts, or feelings aren't always shared and are never negotiated. You'll never find someone who you don't disagree with strongly on SOME important subject. Maybe this is your hill to die on. I don't know if it is or if it should be. But, since you've been there this long... perhaps taking SOME time to ponder whether there are any behavioral protections you can put in place that would work for you isn't a complete waste of time.

Otherwise, like many people here have said: If you can't live with it... then you can't live with it.

Oh, and you're not a jerk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

MM...I agree 100%...

here's one my ex tried to get over on me...

she purchased a hooker outfit online...high heels, fishnets..the whole get up from some costume place...
she then brings it to his house..gets up from the couch, goes into the bathroom and puts the outfit on for him...struts around the room, then goes upstairs to his bedroom...
and then she tells me that she didn't think they were going to have sex though...she didn't think it that far ahead...
yeah, okay...bye bye.

my point is...some WS have their heads so far up their butts that even with all the evidence in the world piled against them, they will never take responsibility for their actions. These are most assuredly those that need to be worried about.

Medc,

BTW, I do see what you mean by the impression I was encouraging him to take crumbs. It was the way I phrased my "why not consider..." statements, most likely.

Again, if it wants to go .. I think the path to the door is fairly obvious.

It only gets tricky if he wants to stay. KWIM?

Besides, considering the options (check out Plank's post) might make the decision for him. If you had to do ALL that, would you want to bother? I wouldn't.

Mys

Jerry, some more key points for your consideration from Harley's article on forgiveness:


I think a huge part of your resentment is completely understandable, as Harley notes in the article, due to the lack of honesty and the lack of care. Resentment is the result when there is no just compensation.

Mys...thanks for making yourslef clearer... I see where you are coming from now.

[quote] [/Actually I've personally witnessed many cases of adultery where the female was the better con-artist because the male was totally unaware of how conniving and controlling the female was being while all the while making him belive she was his 'innocent' victim. The male adulterer of course lies to the female and purposely tries to seduce her. DUH! ALL women (unless they truly are children or only have the mental capacity of a child) KNOWS that! SOME women, knowing this, DECIDE to exploit this as their justification for choosing to 'give in to' adultery. The female ALLOWS herself to be seduced, putting up just enough resistance to preserve the perception of her being a 'good girl' but of course not enough resistance to actually prevent the adultery. The male thinks he's sullied a 'good girl' (and depending on the male either feels guilty about that or scores himself more points) but secretly the female is gloating at pulling off her much more subtle, deeper deception. Of course it's a tad more difficult for such women to convince other women that they're 'innocent'...

(I think it's particularly frustrating - infuriating even -when it's a WH defending his 'innocent' OW to his BW...) quote]

Oh s***, I'm sorry I actually started this, you are all so right, that I begin to wonder why I ever accepted recovery under these horrible circumstances.

I guess after 37 and 1/2 years of M, there was nothing left , but somehow trying to forgive thew unforgiveable.

Did I do the wrong thing? Should I at this point, hold her more accountable for her choices?

At 5 + years. I don't truly know anything anymore. That's pretty sad isn't it?

Oh well, I try to let go and have God take over daily. Still, I love my W more than I love my own life, truly I do!!!



whether I got just compensation or not, I will always love her well beyond a love of myself, or any other being. This could well be my very undoing.

All Blessing,
Jerry

Jerry,

I want to tell you a story about my parents.

No, there isn't any adultery involved... but maybe it's something you can think about.

My mother is very, very ill. In fact, she's had a medically diagnosed psychotic break with reality. Just about every system in her body is failing - she's a diabetic, arthritic, psychotic paraplegic.

Unlike the movies they like to peddle on the Lifetime channel about these mild mannered, sweet, little crippled people who go around making everyone's day's better -- my mother is an incredibly toxic individual. She's verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive.

My father hasn't had any of his EN's met for almost 20 years. Heck, he hasn't even been treated nicely in that many years. His health is failing. The stress is literally killing him.

A few years ago, I asked him why he stayed. After a very long pause... he said to me "Some days... very rarely now... I still see the woman I married, that I made a promise to a long time ago."

People, I'm sure, will say that there's no comparison because my mother didn't betray my father -- she's not capable of having an affair. She doesn't have a choice to change her behaviors.

And, I think to myself: "How much more hopeful it must be to still believe there can be a choice. How much more hopeful must it be to have a spouse who has the capacity to choose something different."

I don't think he stays and endures the daily torture of her abusive behavior just because of a promise he made a long time ago to a completely different woman. I think he stays because, sometimes, love really is that enduring.

And, some people, are just designed to endure - even when they "shouldn't."

For what it's worth,

Mys

Thanks for your reply,
But It seems I need to make something very clear to you. My W did not come tpo me confessing, on her knees as it were, no, rather my DDay occured in my DR's office, wherein, he told me what STD I had, after 32 years of what i thought was a faithful M between the two of us.

My W has stated that if it were not for that, I would have never been told the truth of what happened. I truly have trouble with that statement, as it is not a full embracewment of radical honesty!

Not sure I will ever get that, today, or in the future. That's wat hurts sooooo much!

All blessings,
Jerry

Jerry, I realize that you do love her, but you also realize that it is not in HER best interest to forgive her unless she earns it? It doesn't help her, and it doesn't help you AS YOU CAN SEE. She learns nothing and you suffer. NO ONE benefits from that kind of "forgiveness."

Its funny that you posted this thread TODAY of all days, because my H and I just discussed the major turning point in our marriage this morning. I was sort of in your same boat 3 years ago. My H was sort of half assed into the marriage and sort of half assed NOT. I decided I had done everything I could do to change that and would not be settling for crumbs anymore. I explained to him that the current status was simply not enough to keep me interested in the marriage. I had been using Harley principles for 2-3 yrs by then yet he didn't show the extraordinary care that comes from a buyers outlook. He was a FREELOADER. I decided to pass on that and let him know I was not interested anymore.

This completely changed his outlook immediately! I have to say that telling him this raised the bar on what would suffice in our marriage. I raised the price on myself and he could chose to pay it or be divorced. I do know that he places a much, much higher value on me TODAY than before. My H adores and appreciates me today and knows I am not interested in settling for crumbs, Jerry. People from this forum who have met us in person can SEE that we adore each other and even comment on it. [go look at my H's picture with me on MB Photos] This is what is took to change my H from a freeloader to a BUYER. And a BUYER, he is today.

This is similar to what Dr. Harley says about he and Joyce. Dr. Harley was an admitted FREELOADER in their relationship when they were dating. So Joyce DUMPED HIM. [he STILL whines about that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />] She raised the price of admission...............and he PAID IT. He became a BUYER so he could pay the price of admission to get Joyce.

My point is this, Jerry, if you have done everything possible to improve this situation, maybe the problem is that you don't charge enough admission and cheapen your value to your wife. If you settle for crumbs, that is what you will get. Maybe the answer is to RAISE THE BAR. I know that it changed my marriage. And if she won't pay the admission, then you are better off without her.

Jerry,


And yet you still say you love her more than any one else - and you've been married for over 37 years.

So, now what?

Everyone on this thread has said you can walk away -- but can you?

If you can't ... then what are you going to do?

My father's made his choice - the stress is killing him not so slowly. It seems to me you might have some better options than he does if you stay.

Figure out what you really want to do and what you really can or can not live with.

Once you have that straight, I predict that the rest of it will be a lot easier.

Mys