I'm no police officer, but I'd think that INTENT is much easier to prove if someone takes a weapon to a scene vs. using something on hand...so if he shot OM with a gun he carried with him to the scene, it would be a lot simpler to make the attempted murder charges stick than if he'd tried to run him over in a car...given that the car isn't by nature a weapon.

Make any sense?

Yes, that was one of the things I came up with but then I thought -- given all the apparent lead up to this incident (making the assumption even some of the cautions were followed), that intent would probably be pretty easy to prove. Considering his past record of assaults and, if the BW/OM had contacted legal assistance for their safety and the WW had notified people this was a possibility then I imagine that would probably count somehow.

My other thought was that it is a range weapon. Any other weapon (knife, etc) requires more close contact.

Anyway, I don't want to thread jack with all this morbid analysis, I was just curious.

No matter what happened or happens later, I don't suppose it's really a MB problem. I don't think this is a marriage that is likely to be saved or probably even should be saved. Even if he's cleared of all charges (unless there really is doubt he did it).. he's demonstrated enough of a rage problem that I wouldn't feel confident counseling the WW to do anything but get as far away from this guy as fast as she can. From what Setfree posted, it doesn't sound like he did this in a fit of anger after finding out but, rather, bided his time until he could pull something off. I would think her life is in serious jeopardy should he be out wandering the streets.

I will say that it does bother me a lot. I think telling the truth is the right thing to do but this really conflicts with my value of making the health and well being of people the first priority. Arguably, the affair partners weren't doing that while they were together -- but this level of violence is sickening. I can understand Setfree's emotional devastation about what happened.

Setfree if you feel you are able, I really would like to know if there were any precautions taken and, if so, what. Maybe we can learn from this for the next time this situation crops up.

Mys

Thanks to everyone who has expressed concern. I will try to fill in a few gaps. WW decided a day or two after I spoke with her last about it, to confess to BH. She had been in NC for over a year. OMW has known about it all along. WW asked her brother to be present while she talked to BH. He was angry but controlled. He did not ask a lot of questions but she was still worried. I had advised her to have her brother or pastor warn OM and family; had considered it myself but decided maybe it would be best if another man handled it. For whatever reason, there ended up being no warning; BH stewed on it a few days apparently and this past weekend beat OM almost to death. OM has head trauma, internal injuries and broken bones. Some of the damage was done by hands and kicking (BH is a very large , athletic build with some training in various kinds of fighting.) Also it is believed (not certain) that another object was used, possibly a board or ball bat; not sure if he brought it with him or if it was a weapon of opportunity.
I am wondering if this incident will end the NC in a way. It is possible that with a trial, some of these people will be present in the courtroom at the same time.
BH was quite vocal at the time of the attack that his intent was to kill OM. It was quite a chain of events that ended the attack before he succeeded. Not sure but I am guessing the fact he thought about it for several days will cause him to be treated differently than if for instance he had walked in on them in bed.
As far as I know BH has never been physically violent with WW. He has in the past, at least twice, assaulted someone he perceived to be a threat to his family, not in the sense of an affair (this was WW and OM first affair and very probably last) but in one case someone who had been bullying his children (I remember this case well) and in the other case, if I remember correctly, an ongoing case where someone was harrassing.
That's about it.
Part of me wants to be supportive and the other part wishes to be far away from the whole situation but that may just be selfishiness. I guess I need a lot of wisdom.
Thanks again for listening.

It seems like your best efforts right now would be towards the family (BW) of the OM. You mentioned she is not in good health. If you can scrape up any energy at all for this situation, it seems her and her children are the ones that need it most. (Though not at the expense of your own family, of course. POJA with your wife.)

Mys

Good introspectic and thoughtful post.

IMHO, this is another situation where MB's "one size fits all principles" just doesn't fit. We need to understand that while the MB principles work most of the time, because most A's follow a similar pattern. However, there are certain situations and personality types that are so far outside of the norm, that "cookie cutter" adive can be down right dangerous, as we see here.

In hindsight, this lady should have been advised that:

"Due to the potential for violence, and the unpredictability of individual human behavior, this lady should go to her local Battered Women's Shelter to seek refuge and get advice about the local law enforcement, courts, resources, etc. This is simply a situation where annonymous internet advice is insufficient for the potential seriousness of the situation."

IMHO, this is a situation where simply divorcing, while keeping the potentially dangerous truth hidden, would have been best for all. Instead, this board gave the "STANDARD" advice of "always tell the whole truth", which has now resulted in one man in ICU and another looking at serious jail time.

Also, from my perspective, I'm much more concerned about the BH being in jail. Granted, he didn't have to beat up the OM, but his actions are certainly understandable. I feel little remorse for the OM's condition, and contempt for the WW's continued bad judgment, which has now led directly to a lot of lives being altered, as she caused most of this and now faces only minimal consequences, as she will likely simply divorce the BH and leave the area, while he sits in jail.

I disagree entirely. The details of the A would have most likely come out in the D proceedings (and if not, then afterwards), and the outcome would have possibly been even worse under those circumstances. Frankly, I'm surprised that *anyone* who reads these boards would even *suggest* an approach that relies on hoping to keep the truth hidden, when there are countless examples here to show that the truth almost always comes out, even if it's years after the event.

The issue here IMO is not the honesty, but the steps that should have been taken to protect the people involved during or after disclosure.

And once again, your opinion is ill formed, senseless, and does not line up with that of Dr. Harley. You don't have the credentials to refute him, yet you continue to do so.

Quote

Dr. Harley: Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

In this case, the OM was beat up because he screwed another man's wife; he is no victim. Yes, the BH was a violent man, but everyone is entitled to the truth. She has a much bigger problem on her hands than just adultery, as we can see. Dishonesty is not the answer. Dishonesty only aggravates the problem.

If we used potential "violence" as an excuse to not tell victims of adultery, then no one would ever be told, because this is a classic wayward wife lie about thier own spouses. [there are 2 such cases on the board as we speak]

On the other hand, there are others here who have committed violence on the OP or the WS, who had absolutely no such history at all. One is a distinguished professional with an excellent reputation. So, violence can happen in any situation, it is a job hazard of adultery. To advocate dishonesty because of potential violence is not the answer, because violence is a potential in EVERY CASE.

The moral of the story is not to start advocating dishonesty, but to encourage people to stop committing adultery, lest they risk outcomes such as this.

Dr. Harley's advice:

1. Honesty

The first extraordinary precaution to avoid your lover is to tell your husband all about your affair, and the decision you have made to restore your love for him. Then promise to keep telling him the truth about every aspect of your life, so you never again have a secret second life where you are tempted to hurt him behind his back.

Honesty and openness is one of the best ways to prevent yourself from being inconsiderate of your husband's feelings. It was your friend's threat to reveal all to your husband that motivated you to separate from your lover. Your friend wanted to shed to light of day on the things you were doing in secret to protect your husband. But you should do it yourself. Go right to your husband with the facts. If you had been honest about your budding relationship with your lover from the beginning, it would never have developed into an affair.

You may be afraid that once your husband knows the facts about your ongoing affair, he will leave you. Quite frankly, I think he has the right to make that decision. If, faced with the facts he decides to divorce you, you lose your option to restore your relationship with your him. But you simply cannot build a relationship on lies and deception. Dishonesty will never get you to your goal of loving your husband again. So it's better to get all of the cards out on the table now and build your marriage the right way, even if there is a chance that your husband will throw in the towel before you have a chance to reconcile.

Another reason you may be reluctant to tell your husband the truth is that he might have a violent reaction to what you have done. If you are afraid of his reaction, separate from him first, and then tell him the truth in a public place or with friends who can protect you. If your husband cannot control his temper once he knows the facts, then I see no hope of saving your marriage. Honesty is so important in marriage that if the threat of violence prevents honesty, I don't believe you will ever have a good marriage.

Besides, dishonesty does not prevent violence in marriage, it encourages it. If your honesty brings out violence in your husband, your dishonesty would enrage him even more, once he discovers that you've lied to him.

If you think your husband may divorce you or become violent when you are honest with him, I encourage you to be honest anyway, before you begin your plan for reconciliation. If he cannot accept the truth, no plan of reconciliation will work.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

MyRev-

The poster WAS advised to suggest that she remove herself to a safe place, and to contact police for protection.

And had she followed the rest of YOUR advice...this still likely would have happened.

The ONLY thing that was missing here was someone giving OM the warning that BH was about to find out...which I'd recommended as well.

But at the end of the day...the advice given was the right advice.

What you've suggested would likely not have prevented the attack either...because the truth has this annoying habit of coming out eventually...and the odds are high that this still would have taken place.

If you don't like "internet advice"...why in the heck are you here?

I see this two ways ...

IF the couple is looking to reconcile, then you would have to go the honesty route, as you simply couldn't rebuild the M without honesty. No Argument Here !!!

HOWEVER, IF there is no hope of reconciliation, which I and others assume is the case here, then I see NO REASON for the truth to come out. If they are headed towards D, then what potential benefit would the "truth" provide?

Also, I disagree that the truth would come out anyway. While that may be the case, it is my belief that many many A's happen, stop on their own, and are NEVER found out by the BS. Obviously, I don't approve of this, but it doesn't make the reality of this deception any less true. IMO, more A's are effectively hidden than are ever disclosed to the BS ... doesn't make it right, just an inconvenient truth.

[quote Frankly, I'm surprised that *anyone* who reads these boards would even *suggest* an approach that relies on hoping to keep the truth hidden, when there are countless examples here to show that the truth almost always comes out, even if it's years after the event.
[/quote]

This is not the first time he has advocated dishonesty to a newcomer. Advocating dishonesty seems to be his MO. Unfortunately, he came to the wrong place for that. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=2&vc=1

Not really. It almost always comes out. But that is beside the point. The point is that there is no reason to NOT tell the BS. The BS, first off, is entitled to the truth. And secondly, in the case of a violent spouse, dishonesty will not HELP the situation, but make it worse.

Dishonesty is never the answer, MyRevelation. Dishonesty is never the solution to adultery.

There was very specific advice given on how to warn the OM's family (through the BW with no contact between the two affair partners).

There was very specific advice about things to tell them about investigating legal options for protection or asking other family members or friends to help out.

The steps didn't happen.

Not telling the truth isn't the answer. Doing full and complete due dilligence in the prevention of harm to ANY others (WW, OM, innocent bystanders or family that might be near by) is warranted in any situation where such violence is anticipated.

As for me, my sympathies lie with the BW and the children. They seem to be the only innocent parties.

Deciding that just because you're angry, it's ok to take someone else's life puts the BH on the same moral ground as the adulterers in my opinion. I hope he goes to jail and learns to behave like a responsible citizen in a society of laws that recognize that violence is not "Justified" because you're having a temper tantrum. (Violence in defense of yourself or others is justified. Violence in defense of the state (civil police or military service, for example)is also justified). Not, mind you, that I think he'll learn that in OUR penal system.. but in a perfect world...

I hope the WW takes a good long look at herself and figures out why she married a man who she understood had this type of rage problem — or why she stayed with him after she recognized that it existed. I hope she learns better coping/relationship skills rather than adultery and lies so that she can pass them on to her children.

I hope the OM recovers and takes a good look at what hardships have infidelity has inflicted upon his wife and children.

I hope the BW finds hope, support, and care from the community.

And, I hope that we, as a board, remember that violence does happen and it's never OK and weave into our advice appropriate measures to ensure that both truth and safety (the two are not mutually exclusive) remain our goal in giving advice. Again, note Dr. Harley's sage advice:


His first order of business is ensuring safety. Next, is giving truth. His conclusion is that both must coexist for any relationship to survive. If they can't, then, as he says, there is simply NO HOPE for that relationship.

We don't give up truth to the threat of violence. We don't accept violence as a "natural reaction" to truth. We insist on having both truth AND safety.

At the end of the day, I don't think it can be any clearer than that.

Mys

Mys,

I think we're basically on the same page. Truth is essential IF the M is going to R.

However, on the flip side, in this case it is unnecessary IF the M has already failed.

I know in a perfect world all would be honesty and light, but as you mentioned, we're in a far from perfect world, and certain factors must be considered as reality.

While it may be noble to proclaim honesty above all else, in cases such as this, the cold hard facts suggests the real "truth" probably lies elsewhere.

No doubt this is a very sad situation, but hardly unforseeable ... this probably would have been a good place to "take it to the grave". Ideals are wonderful, but the reality is one man is in jail and the other in ICU over these "ideals", which doesn't seem "ideal" to me.

MyR, I suspect you have me ignore, since I have annoyed you by refuting your bad advice with Harley quotes, but I will respond anyway.

Dishonesty does not prevent violence, it aggravates it.

The reality is that one man is in jail because he beat up another man for having an affair with his wife. They both perpetrated crimes against the other. That is the tragic consequence of adultery.

The BH still had the right to know about the affair, despite the future of the marriage. Like Dr Harley said, if he can't handle the truth, then reconciliation is impossible anyway. This is information about his life to which he has a right to know.

It would have been much better if the WW would have taken the precautions suggested here, but she didn't. At least she was somewhat prepared since she told him. If she hadn't managed this release of the truth herself, it might have been much worse coming from someone else.

Again, there is no reason advocate dishonesty, MyRevelation. That is not a reasonable stance, nor is it a Marriage Builders position. Dr. Harley clearly addresses this situation:

maybe I am hard hearted to unrepentant WS...but I will say that I cannot muster even an ounce of sympathy for the man laying in the hospital. He should have thought about the possible repercussions before screwing another man's wife.

So, boo-hoo he got his a$$ handed to him. The only ones I am sad for are any children involved.

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the possibility that the WW used the OM to get rid of her H.....while she gets to play the role of victim. I knew of a situation where that was the case....and it worked. One dead, another in jail, and the person who created the scenario and pushed the buttons got what she wanted.

The BW and the Betrayed Children were the true victims, imho.

setfree's friend was advised to have protection for everyone in place before informing her BH. The friend did not do this. Why not?

Imho, the OM was in more danger before the BH was informed simply because the OM would have had no warning and no opportunity to take protective measures if the BH had found out on his own (which odds are he would have at some point).

The WW informing the BH herself gave her the opportunity to have safety measures in place that would have protected everyone.....protected them from one another as well as from themselves.

Yet the WW didn't protect anyone.....except herself, at everyone else's expense including OM's BW, OM's children, and even setfree who feels responsible for not being able to stop the WW from acting selfishly at the very high expense of many others.

setfree, I don't think you are to blame for any of this. You can't make someone act responsibly if that doesn't serve their true (and sometimes hidden) agenda.

Imho, the only chance that OM had to keep himself and his family safe was if the proper safety measures were in place before BH found out and then BH was informed in a safe setting....like with a counselor, with law enforcement present, in an atty's office, etc.

Imho, most of the blood is on the WW's hands since she knew in advance of starting the affair that her H would likely use physical violence against an OM. The WW could have protected OM by not starting an affair with him.....and she could have protected OM after the affair by informing her BH in a manner that protected everyone as much as possible. The WW did neither.

I hope that OM's BW sues the WW on behalf of OM's children so that a judge tells her that she has a LOT of responsibility in this by awarding a large judgment to OM's BW and children.

Take care setfree

Exactly. I can't believe that MyRev is actually suggesting that the WW should have kept mum and hope that news of her A didn't reach her BH by other means. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what would have happened if that prone-to-violence BH had found out about the A via another means: there might be TWO people in hospital now (the WW and the OM), or worse, in the morgue! And does he honestly think that the WW or the OM would have been in any less danger if the BH had found out about the A after D'ing his W?

Honesty, along with provision for safety for the involved parties, is the ONLY option that actually makes sense in this situation. Unfortunately, the WW did one and only partly accomplished the other.

Frankly, I'm appalled that someone who reads here would suggest "conditional honesty" as an option, when there have been many examples that it DOES NOT WORK and MAKES MATTERS WORSE.

IF MR has ML on ignore it's for a REASON. Why FORCE him to read her post when he has made a concious decision that he doesn't WANT to read them????????