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BR I am late to the party too but a note. Enabling is doing for someone things that they could, and should be doing themselves. This is the text book definition of enabling. it is easy for him to continue to deny he has a problem -- since most of his problems are being "solved" by those around him. Only when he is forced to face the consequences of his own actions, will it finally begin to sink in how deep his problem has become. Above is why I think enablers are picked by their mates they solve the problems for the other person. Yes you are correct - but that is not the whole story. Enablers also choose their partners - enablers choose those that they can enable. It's a mutual attraction. As the literature says, "Detachment is neither kind nor unkind. It does not imply judgment or condemnation of the person or situation from which we are detaching. It is simply a means that allows us to separate ourselves from the adverse effects that another person's actions can have upon our lives." How to solve the problem. BR if you enable out of fear you should really look at that. One of the reasons I stay sane while living with an active alcoholic is because I've gotten good at recognizing my motivations for my behavior. Once I recognize what I am doing at any given moment, I am then able to choose to do something else. What some may consider fear others do not. And I would argue that those who enable for 'other reasons' have not examined their motives thoroughly enough. It's a process - a journey. Remember the peeling back the layers of the onion? If you keep peeling, you will find the fear. My FWW is an alcoholic. I am absolutely an enabler.
Hopefully as time goes by it is weaning. I did not enable out of fear. Hopefully? You say this as if you don't have a choice of behavior - that it is something that just happens to you. I enabled out of a misguided attmept to be RESPONSIBLE. Now looking back I wasn't being the responsible one I was being an enabler. This is a pretty common response. Most of us, with alcoholic family members, are ultra responsible. It's classic enabling. But don't stop looking there. There is a reason why you chose an alcoholic for a spouse. It does NOT happen by accident. I discovered that I called "responsible" was enabling. I had lots of excuses why I had to step up and shoulder my husband's responsibilities. It was my Al-anon sponser who prodded me to keep peeling the onion. Why....why did I feel the need to be responsible for another adult's stuff? What was my pay-off? As I worked my steps, the answer became clear. When I enabled my husband, I felt superior. *I* got to feel like more because he was less. *I* was the fixer, the doer, the responsible one. He was lazy, irresponsible, and clearly less than I was. I was important because he could not live his life without my help. Poor pathetic husband, who could not live without his Responsible Wife to run his life for him. To my horror...I realized...my payoff was a unhealthy boost to my own self esteem. I choose him, because I felt good about myself in comparison to him. Talk about judgemental and oh so selfish! So then I peeled back the next layer. And there I found the fear. My judgemental selfish behavior was motivated by the fear that I was pathetic, weak, not important- NOT ENOUGH. I had been trying to bandage my wounds, my belief that I was less than, by being more than my alcoholic husband. So Frog, you can stop at responsible. But if you truely want to stop enabling, you have to dig deeper. I decided to take the first step almost two years ago now.
I woke up on New Years morning and told my FWW I would be taking the kids and leaving, that no court in the world would allow her custody because of her alcoholism.
She finally hit rock bottom and went to an AA meeting. I told her it is now my choice to never live with an Alcholic again. I have done it for far to long.
She can drink any time she wants but I will leave.
Not for me but for my children. Good for you, in choosing a boundary and sticking to it. But check your motivations. Always check motivations. Did you draw the boundary to take care of you or did you draw the boundary to force her to stop drinking? If you drew the boundary to care for yourself and your kids...that is healthy and good. If you drew the boundary to force her to experience consequences, and force her to stop drinking...well that is control - and sets you up as the superior partner. The payoff is still there. Thats why I always say that motivation is everything. And believe me, the same action, with differing motivations can have differing outcomes. I'd guess from reading what you wrote that you drew a healthy boundary for yourself. But don't make the mistake of thinking that your boundary is the cause, the cure or the control over her choice to get sober. That is classic controller/enabler thinking. The fact of the matter is, that there are many alcoholics who lose their families, lose everything, including their lives, in the pursuit of alcohol. Thank goodness your wife had a relatively high rock bottom.
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Sorry for the late responses. I am swamped So Ace- So are you saying that after you took the kids and left, then she hit rock bottom and such consequences helped her choose to change? No. I live in California so taking the kids would have really hurt me in a custody hearing. She knew I had already seen a lawyer. I told her I would be filing that week. I think she finally saw I was serious. What did she do to prove she had changed so that your recovery (according to your sig line) could start 11/06? She said she was willing to do whatever it takes for as long as it takes. She looked me in the eye and told me how sorry she was for the damage her decesions hav caused. If you drew the boundary to care for yourself and your kids...that is healthy and good. That is exactly why I drew the boundary. I stayed M'd for the kids well being. However being M'd to an active alcholic was counterproductive to that goal. I tried to avoid that reality but it was a reality none the less. But don't make the mistake of thinking that your boundary is the cause, the cure or the control over her choice to get sober. That is classic controller/enabler thinking. No my boudary protects me not her. She can drink any time she wants she decides that. I have decided what I WILL DO if that happens. Thank goodness your wife had a relatively high rock bottom. I don't know about that. I would say sleeping with an almost complete stranger In MY AUNTS home with my kids and my family upstairs is a pretty low bottom. When I enabled my husband, I felt superior. *I* got to feel like more because he was less. *I* was the fixer, the doer, the responsible one. He was lazy, irresponsible, and clearly less than I was. I was important because he could not live his life without my help. Poor pathetic husband, who could not live without his Responsible Wife to run his life for him. I think this can be covered by your motivaiton comment about telling an Alcholic to stop. Your motivation for enabling was different then mine. I did it because as a man I thought I was supposed to take care of these things. The finances, taking care of the wife etc. Thump on chest grunt and do man's work!!!! Frog good man grunt grunt. As far as marrying an Alcoholic. I didn't realize she was an Alchoholic. We were younger and we would party with our friends. I stopped partying she did not that is when I realized she had a problem.
BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby
When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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This thread is great, THANKS ACE for starting these thingys, i will be reading up over the next day or so. Good stuff!
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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What is the difference in enabler and co-dependent?
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What is the difference in enabler and co-dependent? Both are interelated and where you find one...you usually find the other. Enabling is when you are helping someone with their dependency. Definitions of enabling include: make able, give power, means, competence or ability to...authorize. To make possible or easy. Here are some examples of enabling: * Doing something for another that they should do themselves. * Making excuses for the individual’s behavior * A spouse calling his or her significant other’s employer to say that the person is sick when they are just hung over which is why they can’t work. * Bailing out a child who has been arrested for possession, use or abuse of drugs, or breaking other societal rules. * Instead of recognizing a problem the enabler may defend the substance abuser thereby allowing the behavior to continue. * Generally covering the tracks of the individual in question whether it be by giving/loaning money, finishing up work, or just generally ignoring behaviors that should have repercussions. Usually the enabler stays silent when faced with repeated inappropriate or destructive behavior. Codependency is when you are suffering to support someone else's dependency. You are addicted to the their dependency. Co-dependency is the idea of being overly involved in another person’s life. Having a constant preoccupation with the other person’s behavior and feeling unnecessarily guilty when not taking care of the other person’s needs. This often times stems from not having adequate self-esteem. Some common themes in the co-dependency cycle on the part of the dependent person are as follows: * My feelings are not important * I'm not good enough. * I’m not lovable * My having problems is not acceptable * It's not OK for me to have fun. * I don’t deserve love * I’m responsible for my friend or significant other’s behavior Definitions for codependency include: *giving power over our self esteem to outside sources/agencies or external manifestations. *taught to look outside of our selves to people, places, and things - to money, property and prestige, to determine if we have worth. *causes us to keep repeating patterns that are familiar. So we pick untrustworthy people to trust, undependable people to depend on, unavailable people to love. Codependency is the motive. Enabling is the action.So a codependent is someone who has learned to seek self worth externally, often through self sacrifice. They become enablers because they are codependent. The caring manifested by codependents is an unconscious effort to keep repressed pain at bay, and the codependent actually contributes to the addictive behavior of their loved ones by enabling. Enabling keeps the loved one addicted so the codependent can go on caring to gain a sense of self worth. Dr. Darlene Albury describes it this way: An enabler, is a person who by their actions make it easier for an addict to continue their self-destructive behavior by criticizing or rescuing. The term codependency refers to a relationship where one or both parties enable the other to act in certain maladaptive ways. Many times, the act of the enabler satisfies a need for the codependent person because his or her actions foster a need from the other person or persons in the relationship.
To enable the individual with the addiction, the mutually dependent person makes excuses and lies for the addict, which enables the addiction to continue. Codependency is reinforced by a person’s need to be needed. The enabler thinks unreasonably by believing he can maintain healthy relationships through manipulation and control. He believes he can do this by avoiding conflict and nurturing dependency. Is it normal for someone to think that he can maintain a healthy relationship when he does not address problems and he lies to protect others from their responsibilities? The way a codependent person can continue to foster this dependency from others is by controlling situations and the people around them. The ongoing matter in a codependent home, are to avoid conflicts and problems and to make excuses for destructive or hurtful behavior.
Any time you assist/allow another person to continue in their unproductive/unhealthy/addictive behavior, whether actively or passively, you are enabling. Even when you say nothing you are enabling the behavior to continue. Sometimes you say nothing out of fear, fear of reprisal, fear of the other person hurting, hating, not liking you; or fear of butting in where you don’t think you belong. Perhaps even fear of being hit or worse.
Sometimes enabling takes the form of doing something for another that they should do for themselves. It also takes the form of making excuses for someone else’s behavior (example), There are situations where the spouse of an alcoholic will call in to the boss to say that person is “sick”, when they are really too hung over they can’t make it to work.
You more than likely enable out of your own low self-esteem. You haven’t gained the ability to say no, without fear of losing the love or caring of that other person. People who learn tough love have to learn that their former behaviors have been enabling and that to continue in them would represent allowing the other person’s pattern of behavior to continue and to worsen.
It is difficult to stop enabling if you’re trying to do it with all authority. And it’s not easy until you know you deserve to stop. Until you know that you are endearing regardless of what the person you’ve previously enabled says to the contrary until you raise your own self-esteem enough to be that strong. You may think it’s the other person who needs all of the help, in truth, you both do.
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So what happened to change the discussions' "depth"....and how do WE get them back? Hey Acey, I don't normally hang out here when I'm back home with Mrs. RIF and the girls... Life is just too full for us now. I "came back" to MB when I deployed this past June and I've noticed a difference. I haven't really been able to put my finger on the difference, but it "feels" different. I think that as long as everyone recognizes the fact that we posters (even us "veterans") are NOT trained MC or psychologists and that any "advice" that we give is based on our own personal experiences, then that will go a long way towards civil discussions. One of the things that I've been taught by the military is to always "Stay In My Lane"... If I don't have a personal experience with something (like Plan-B, divorce, an OC, etc.) I stay out of those discussions! I see too many people here that offer up "advice" based on what they've seen other's do or say, or what they've read in a book or an article, when they have no personal experience... Anyway, I can only control what I do, so for me, I will only post "advice" based on what I've personally experienced. Lastly, I think that if we could all learn to respect other's and treat others like we'd like to be treated, that the boards would "get back" to some of those "thought provoking" discussions... Semper Fi, RIF
Me, BS
Her, Forgiven
Married Dec 86
Multiple A's that ended '90
Rebuilding In Faith since then...
Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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St*r...thanks soooo much for your explanation of co-dependency and how it relates to enabling. Very helpful insights for me and others. Are you and mvg both having daughters' weddings tomorrow? Wow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Here is the post that motivated me originally to ask this question about the difference between enabling and cheerleading (and controlling....and CA.....and co-dependency): Ace_in_bucket, Member, Reged: Jan 14 2007, Posts: 2229 Re: CHEERLEADER vs. ENABLER? What's the 'FINE LINE' difference? [Re: mvg] #3309387 - Mon Sep 24 2007 06:54 AM After reading this I'm an enabler. I don't want to be any more. Me neither, mvg. So what's the solution, BR et al? How does one become an FEB (Former EnaBler)? I am not enabling FWH anymore, which helped him earn his F after 4 D-Days. But I was enabling a friend. I've since defined my boundaries and now she won't speak to me. If I give in and call her, I don't think it would be out of fear. I do want to help her.
(I promised to help her with rent, but not if she makes certain choices.) By her silence, I'm assuming she's still making those choices. Her loss. My sadness.
She was my only A venting outlet before MB and I owe her so much. But I think my best gift to her is to quit enabling her. She disagrees.....said my helping her unconditionally was being a good friend. (She was there for me when I needed her, and I told her I'd be here for her on the condition that she stop certain behaviors that she is in denial about being destructive.)
I can't change her, but how do I follow through when she refuses to reply to my calls, texts or emails? I've stopped reaching out to her, but I'm still concerned. Ace I've learned that I was trying to control my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Thank you MBers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even though she ignored me for several weeks, I merely kept sending short emails saying "How are you, I'm praying for you." I didn't know if she even received them or not. AFter 4 weeks, she's emailing me again and asking what I've learned about 'enabling'. YEA!!!! I will cut and paste many posts from this thread. Hopefully she'll give me her new phone number soon. (Dang, she had changed it to avoid me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, her choice.) RIF, thanks for your insights and for returning to your night shift (and agreeing to a double shift on the recovery vacation thread). Can't tell you and other veteran posters how much we (who registered within the last year) appreciate your willingness to share, even when you have nothing to gain*. One day, I wanna be like you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ace *I know many gain the satisfaction of helping others by 'paying it forward' but I know many also just want to help because......just 'because'....and I say thanks to all!
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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I have just started reading this thread. I had never realized I was an enabler, but I'm textbook case.
H is a compulsive spender. Since we have been together I have always paid off his debt to "protect" him from himself. In 15 years of being together, I have spent well over 30K wiping out his debt everytime he has made a mistake. I thought I was being a good and supportive spouse, turns out I've been enabling his behavior.
Last week, we separated and now he is trying to get more money from me because in the last 2 weeks he has spent over 15k for stuff he cannot afford. He has been trying everything to get money from me. Every trick in the book. I haven't budged and now I know it's a good thing. He's going to hit rock bottom before long I can feel it.
FWS (me): 38 (EA in May-June 2007)
FWS (H): 35 (EA from oct 2005 to oct 2007)
DS1: 7
DS2: 3.5
S decided he wanted a separation: October 5th 2007
S moved out: October 12th 2007
S moved back in: November 10th
We are working together, one day at a time, one step at a time to build a love that will last forever. Thanks to MB.
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mbm69, So glad you found this thread useful. There's another thread Affairs $uck that may have some helpful insights into financial dealings.....if nothing else, the stories may make you feel better about your sitch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It will be one step at a time. Please post whatever questions you may have about the process. Someone gave this thread the 5 stars it deserves so it's easier to find now. I'm learning right along with you. Best wishes to you as you deal with all the aspects of your separation. Is your story on another thread somewhere? If so, can you provide a link to it here? Thanks, Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3322843Above is the most recent thread I've posted. It's very tough right now because SO left very suddenly, without what I find is a good excuse. Left me interim full custody with the kids and doesn't seem to want to see them that much. He's not the man I thought he was. The man I knew would NEVER abandon his family like that. He often shunned his brother for doing just that. I've been discussing a lot with my parents about this, and we think with his income, and the few bills he paid at home, he had been spending money elsewhere. Yesterday it clicked... he has been playing online poker for the last few months. I'm wondering if the A that I've been wondering about isn't a pathologic gambling/spending problem that he's trying to hide. It's easier to hide if you are on your own.
FWS (me): 38 (EA in May-June 2007)
FWS (H): 35 (EA from oct 2005 to oct 2007)
DS1: 7
DS2: 3.5
S decided he wanted a separation: October 5th 2007
S moved out: October 12th 2007
S moved back in: November 10th
We are working together, one day at a time, one step at a time to build a love that will last forever. Thanks to MB.
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Someone gave this thread the 5 stars it deserves so it's easier to find now. I'm learning right along with you.
Ace hehehe I can link and rate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This Thread DESERVES the high ratings, wish it could be a sticky to stay on top of postings. It's great info.,unfortunately so many of us fall into these catagories.
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hehehe I can link and rate! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
This Thread DESERVES the high ratings, wish it could be a sticky to stay on top of postings. It's great info.,unfortunately so many of us fall into these catagories. mvg, Sneaky you...assigning stars to this lil' ol thread in the midst of all your distractions....glad you figured it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> You're ahead of me. Ace
Last edited by Ace_in_bucket; 10/24/07 08:22 AM.
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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So what's the flavor of the 'week' (or should it be 'day')? Cheerleader, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Enabler, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Controller, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Conflict Avoider, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> or Co-depender? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> It's great info., unfortunately so many of us fall into these catagories. Y'know, mvg, I just realized how different my life (and marriage) would have been (and would now be) if couples had to learn about these kinds of things before being issued a marriage license. Like driver licenses, not knowing various related facts and concepts could be deadly. Too bad there is not a required manual to be read regarding marriage....and life in general. The worst part, as you alluded is that more often than not, we are not aware of how these behaviors affect our lives. But we act on one or all of these tendencies every day (or week). So much to learn.....so little time, it seems. Just taking baby steps....reading this thread and digesting what I can. Thanks to all who contributed. Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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I again whole heartedly with ya Ace! Where or where are those instruction manuals! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Baby steps for sure. LA posted a very helpful insight on my thread...what she responded to was I made a comment something along the lines of needing major overhaul, her reply was baby steps...learning and applying. What a smart lady!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ya know as hard and hurtful as WH's EA was/is...I've learned SO much here from good folks about ME and Him maybe just maybe I was very lucky that EA didn't progress further but because of it I was really fortunate to have found MB. I didn't realize things were not as they COULD be. COULD be so much better than I ever imagined. Ok back to flavor of the day...Cheerleader with grateful heart. Week didn't start that way, but hey I'm sure glad it's improving, with much of the improvement from encouragement from my MB friends. Thanks y'all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Mel threw tough love at Charlotte and she responded, saw her choices, made the decision to stop enabling......and followed up with actions. ************************************************************* MelodyLane, Member, Reged: Apr 10 2001, Posts: 25091 Loc: Great State of Texas! Re: Thanks you guys... [Re: Miss M] #3325906 - Sun Oct 28 2007 07:27 AM Charlotte, if you decide to stop enabling his affair and take some action here, give me a shout out and I will help you. But I won't help you contribute to your own demise. I won't come here and give you atta-girls for enabling your husbands affair. You want to save your marriage, you will have to do some work. And I don't mean sitting around crying.
Remember, courage is a DECISION, not a magic feeling that lands on some and not on others. We ALL have the ability to make a DECISION. I will be here when you are ready to do some real work. -------------------- misplaced compassion gives power to EVIL..... ************************************************************* The action starts about page 5 of Charlotte's thread (name changes too fast to mention) and shows how she courageously broke through her fear in exposing to OWH to stop enabling the affair. [color:"blue"] Edited to add emphasis and to thank Weaver and Mr. W for email confirmation. mvg...great idea to seek stories of the ongoing process. I'm working on one to share about the situation that I mentioned at the bottom of page 1. Ace [/color]
Last edited by Ace_in_bucket; 11/02/07 07:56 AM.
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Ace, you have mail. Sorry, I didn't see it yesterday.
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Anyone making headway on their enabling/co-dependency issues? What are you doing? How are you feeling?
Post here for those of us that are strugggling.
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I was proud of myself this week-small improvement. H wanted GC to spend the weekend with us, but wanted me to make all the arrangements. Never asked me if I was ok with this, on top of just getting thru DD wedding and having UTI (with possible kidney stone, I haven't felt well, so I was a tad irratated with him. He's never really gone out of his way to establish a relationship with our girls, does it thru me. WELL NOT THIS TIME. I told him you need to call DD and find out if this would be ok. He moped around a few days didn't know what to say (whole other difficult sitch) but he did finally do it. I told him what I would say if it were me calling, and he did use some of that in their conversation, but I digress.... I DIDN'T ENABLE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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