Hello,

My Name is Ace and I am a Major Controller. I think my FWH may be enabling me to continue trying to control him.

He is a conflict avoider and I usually am not. This may be part of our problem....to avoid conflict, he just agrees with me, allowing me to control him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I just realized this last night, BUT we discussed it civilly, calmly, and without lovebusters. Major step for both of us. But it does not solve our situation.

Does anyone else have this problem? What should we do to fix it?

Ace

YUP me too, I am learning how to recognize the signs though and hopefully rectify before I enable/control.

What are you controlling Ace, anything specific or are you superwoman???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My outfit is in the closet most days now.

In a nutshell....

I think I'm controlling my DH and I think he is enabling me to control him.

He says he will DO ANYTHING to help me heal. I try not to ask for anything outlandish, especially when I baited him after D-Day #4 and said "Ok, you'll do anything? What if I asked you to fly across the country to see OWH at work and apologize to him?"

He said, "I'd do it today."

Of course that was pre-MB, but it gave me a clue that he was indeed serious about "doing anything to help me heal." (Didn't even know where OWH worked, but I discovered later ~~~>with the help of MB posters<~~~ how to find OWH so I could expose 6 months after D-Day #3.)

Here's how it works:

Inadvertantly, I TELL DH what I want. He agrees and does it immediately. (Even when he does NOT want to.) He stuffs his real feelings. I try to read his body language but can't always know when he's stuffing his feelings.

Our MC hsa been helping me 'make it safe' for DH to share his true feelings but I must be missing something. I will ask MC for ways to communicate now that I realize that I'm doing it (being such a controller). My fear is that DH will eventually stuff too much and blow up. I shared this on JustKim's "Plan WTF" thread.

I'll put the specific incident on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread on the Recovery Forum. It would be better to keep this discussion generic.

I'm studying the freeloaders/renters/buyers thread for communication tips that will help me become a 'recovering controller'. Any insights would be helpful.

Thanks,
Ace

Hiding your feelings can certainly be a control method.

In this specific situation however...I am not so sure.

It is possible that he simply feels so incredibly guilty that he does not feel he is entitled to feelings, wants, needs and desires.

This is his reparation.

But of course, you are right, it certainly will sabotage recovery - and create what he fears - losing you.

However, if you are a newly reforming controller - there are probably some things you are still doing without even realizing it that are creating an unsafe environment.

My husband and I have a habit of asking each other what our goals. It sets the stage for exploring "interests" instead of "positions" as we talked about on Froz's thread.

For example today is Saturday. Old controllng me would have woken up with an agenda for the day and then made anyone who got in the way of my plan feel completely guilty and miserable. I oh so resented my husband for being a lazy slacker on Saturdays.

Instead, I've begun to see the value of his point of view - that Saturday is the one day a week we can decompress a little. That the end of the world will NOT occur if he sleeps until the ungawdly hour of 10am. Now, sometimes, I sleep in too!

When he wakes up - I'll have already made coffee. He'll stumble into the shower and after he wakes up a wee bit, I'll hand him a cup of coffee through the shower curtain and one of us will ask: What do you want to accomplish today?

It sets a tone - it becomes a pleasant sharing of goals and priority setting instead of a hard bargaining position where both of us are entrenched.

My husband used grudgingly carry out his list of "Honey Dos", staggering around exhausted and angry because he really felt his needs (sleeping in) were ignored. He rarely told me how he felt about it, it came out in other nasty passive agressive ways. I discovered that he is more motivated to help me and we get more done (which was my real goal) if I let him sleep.

As long as the conversation went: BR is good and virtuous because she gets up on Saturdays to do chores and Mr. BR is selfish and lazy because he sleeps...

Well, now you can see that not only was it disrespectful of me, but controlling (and selfish!) on my part also.

So, making things safe...its a hard thing to do intuitively. You have fear and control working on both sides.

I've found the 2 conversation derailers are these:

Honey, Lets talk about your feelings

Honey, I need you to get the lawn mowed, and the garage cleaned out and the hallway repainted today.

If you had asked me at the time that I used these as conversation openers, I would tell you that I wanted open dialogue and negotiation with my husband. I didn't understand why he was sooooooooooooo resistant to cooperating with me. He wasn't open and honest, and here I was trying to be understanding!!

What I learned to do is to begin by trying to explore my husband's interests and begin brainstorming options to meet both my needs and his.

So the conversation might be onsided at first - with you doing all the work, but if you keep asking what he thinks, and praising and admiring good options or solutions that he may offer...eventually you will have drawn your husband into the discussion.

If your husband makes a slip and lets out a feeling or a need - be sure that you acknowledge it and treat it with as much tender respect as you do your own feelings and needs.

Thanks so much for your time and input, BR. This is exactly what happened in the challenge that inspired my Beyond THE BEFORE poem after we overcame it. Or, I should say....this is what did NOT happen.

Last week while during during our 10 day baseball vacation,I assumed that when DH mentioned something about 'us 30 years from now' that he wanted to brainstorm about how we would get to those 30 years. I was thrilled that he mentioned it because it's usually me bringing up the 'let's set goals' topic. How funny to hear that you and your DH go through the same thing. Glad to hear how you're approaching it, BR.

When he spoke of 'us 30 years from now',I expected falsely that DH would want to discuss the specifics of our 30 year goals, but he was merely making a statement in passing. Then I selfishly demanded that we talk about it since he had brought it up......and that's all she wrote. Our differences in perceptions led to a shouting match with name calling and lovebusting galore. In fact, I threatened to jump off the balcony of our 7th floor suite in my frustration. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> And in hindsight, I think I was just angry that I could not control him like I had been able to do for the past several months.

Tender respect? Neither of us were tender or respectful. When I plopped down on the bed and rolled over in exasperation, I suddenly developed vertigo and got horribly dizzy. DH softened and actually started to cry.....right before a baseball work out we had to attend. But when he offered to forgo the workout, I softened, too. By the next day, the dizziness was gone....must have been just stress induced and not really vertigo.


Thank you for this insight. You could be right. We will discuss this with our MC in a couple weeks. In the meantime, I will attempt to create that 'safety for sharing with tender respect' scenario so I can at least do my part to become a 'recovering controller'.

Ace

uh, yes, a threat to jump off a balconey is a HUGE control/power play.

Do you see how that might enable his stuffing of emotions?

And here is where you have to dig deeper.

Why were you angry? What is it that you fear?

We could analyze your husband's behavior all day long and get nowhere - but your behavior - that we can address.

Controllers like to discuss the other spouse - instead of their own motivations and agendas.

The assumption is: There's nothing wrong with me! He is <insert judgemental diagnosis here>. If he would change, we could be happy!

By addressing your fear of letting go of him, your behavior will shift, almost without your conscious notice. It will make a huge difference in how you approach each other.

Excellent post BR!!!


Hey Acey - OK, RIF is putting on his 'serious' hat...

For me, controlling came very easily for me. I'm 6 years older than Mrs. RIF. Early in our M (when Mrs. RIF was having her A's), I was very controlling. I treated Mrs. RIF like a kid and not my W... After I found out about her "first" A, I became obsessed with controlling her.

Fast forward to our early rebuilding years...

I think that it 'normal' for most BS to want to control everything about the WS. After all, part of the pain of an A is the fact that the BS had absolutely NO control over the A. Early on, I tried to control Mrs. RIF and "get" the answers that I needed from her. I tried to control her with slight comments and references to her past sins in order to get what I wanted...

Eventually, I learned that I had to create a safe place for Mrs. RIF before she would open up. When I was able to do that, Mrs. RIF started to responding to my questions and really started rebuilding with me.

The more that I let her know that I wasn't going to blast her when she answered my questions, the safer she felt. This took us a while to get used to, but once we got the hang of it, Mrs. RIF eventually got to a point where she actually would let me "have it" if I started the controlling behavior of the past.

At some point in your rebuilding process, I believe that you will have to let go of the control issues. This is the point where the BS has to step out on faith that the WS's consistent actions are "real" and that they can start trusting them again.

It doesn't happen overnight, but from what you've told us, I'd say that you and your DH are well on the way. You're both learning how to communicate with each other and his actions are consistent. This will take lots of practice for both of you... eventually, there will come a time where you will have to take that step of faith in your DH...

Semper Fi,

RIF

He lied and then denied. I forced him to confess.

I feared his regression back to D-Day #1 when he was lying and denying.

He's on stike 5. Lack of admission when I know he's lying and accompanying remorse and repentence is the deal breaker we both have discussed. I felt he was dishonoring and devaluing me.

Dang, I have to go but I do want to hear all your input. I have a family gathering happening. Saw your post, RIF and I will reply later, I promise.

Thanks,
Ace

I posted this on renter/buyer thread but I thought I'd ask the same questions here.

My tendency to control (which, to my chagrin, I've recently discovered) is a major stumbling block in our recovery. That's what led to our explosion which eventually we were able to overcome and led to my poem "Beyond THE BEFORE."

It worked, but I'm not pleased with what I've realized was our solution: My controlling behavior and my DH's willingness to sacrifice and stuff his real feelings to the point that he even cried in anguish when he realized that I would not deal with his continued lying and denials (non-A related).

I now see that within our communication, I have conditions that I expect my DH to display to my satisfaction. He must have a good attitude, be truthful, and quick to admit and apologize when errors are committed. I expect the same of myself.

When he fails to keep his end of the bargain, however, I am quick to tell him that it's best if we just cut to the chase, complete the inevitable, split now and get it over with. When I fail, however, DH tries to work with me to find out how we can 'get back on the rails together.'

I now recognize how I control him. I make him remorseful and apologetic because that's how we are able to get back on the rails. He jumps through my hoops with reckless abandon as soon as I throw my tantrums and hissy fits. He says (and backs it up with actions) that he will do anything to help me heal and help us to rebuild our trust and marriage so that it's better than it was before. (BTW, the bar was so low that we're now accomplishing that by leaps and bounds.)

But we struggle with motivations in our actions (or lack of postive perceptions.)

I want him to choose actions that please me because he wants to, not just because he knows that I want him to do certain things. I want to choose actions that please him because I want to, in addition to because I know it's what he wants me to do. At the same time, I want to be the source of his happiness and him to be the source of mine.


I guess I mistook my willingness to give up on "us" as my 'letting go of him'. How do I let go without giving him up so he can find someone else who does not try to control him? (Can you believe I actually think/say this to him?...that's one of the many things that I need to stop.)

RIF,


I understand that I have to let go. As you can see, I'm a little confused as to how 'letting go' looks. I recognize that I go a little too far with my 'let's just get this over with before it get's ugly' approach. (Jeeez the enemy sure is convincing, isn't he????) Our recovery is going extremely well one moment and I'm willing to chuck it all the next.

So how do I 'let go' without 'giving up on us?'

Ace

Hey Acey,

For me, letting go ment that I had to STOP looking at everything through BS/WS/Affair C*ap glasses... and I mean EVERYTHING.

This was very hard for me since Mrs. RIF didn't confess most of her A's until 10+ years later. So I had a lot of 'missing time' to process.

If your DH is working hard at earning your trust, his actions are CONSISTENTLY trustworthy, and he is basically doing the things that YOU've asked him to do... then at some point, YOU will have to take off the BS/WS/A C*ap glasses and start relating to your DH as your DH and not your FWS DH.

I remember the "day" that that I did this... I changed my sig-line and put Mrs. RIF down as forgiven and not FWW...

It takes time to get to this point... Like I said earlier, from what you're telling us about your H's actions, and the thoughts that you're dealing with, I'd say that you are getting close to this point. Only YOU can decide when the time is right to take those glasses off...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi Ace ~ RIF has certainly hit part of it that worked for me.

There comes a point in recovery where the Affair Filter has to come off, because it causes more damage and hinders healing. We are more than WS and BS. We are husband and wife, a couple, a partnership...a family.

You have three things to do.

Let go of fear.
Let go of control.
Let go of your husband.

I asked you about anger and fear and you said:


And if he regresses back to D-Day #1....what will you do?

What unspeakable consequence will happen? Will the world end? Will you disappear? Will your life be over?

The thing most of us fear is being alone. We fear not being enough. We fear that the other person's choices are a reflection - a reflection of our own value.

We say to ourselves...if I was good enough he would love me enough not to do <insert hurtful action here>.

We say to ourselves...if I am not good enough for him, I am not good enough for anyone else either. No one else will see value in me - therefore, I am not valuable.

We make the mistake of making the other person's truths and the other person's actions about ourselves.

The thing is, we just aren't that important - but we are so caught up, so self absorbed in our gibbering, gut wrenching fear that we are not enough...that we fail to see that it just isn't about us.

The fear....that we are not enough....that we will fail without someone else to help carry the burden....is a fear that if you are left alone, others will see you fail, see that you are not enough...and you will be rejected.

You see, at least when you have a spouse, and you fail, you have someone else to blame. Self esteem is built on "at least I am the good one!"

The truth is: You are good enough and strong enough and his failures are not a measure of your value.

The truth is: His failures and choices are about HIM and a measure of who he is, not about you.

Your self esteem has to be grown from internal sources (yourself) instead of from external sources (your spouse and others).

Rooting your self-esteem in yourself will allow you to let go of that fear, let go of control...and let go of your husband.

The need to control is always driven by fear.

Fear is a self-fulfilling prophecy - we create (by controlling behavior) what we fear the most.

You fear losing your husband, so you attempt to control the outcome by controlling him...which will end your marriage without a doubt.

Letting go never means "Dump the Bum". People frequently make that mistake though, thats for sure.

I bumped my Detachment with love thread for you.

Here is how you let go of your husband:


The key - acceptance.

Hi Ace,

Well, I sure see a lot of me in your thread. My WH was exactly the same - went along with everything for 34 years. He just put me in the position of making all decisions. If I didn't do it, neither one of us did. Yikes. I read your thread and realized what a controller I am.

I know that you two will make it through this. You are both working so hard on it. Your H is willing to do whatever it takes, and believe me, I would give anything to hear those words.

I'm always following your threads, just don't always have any words of wisdom. Just trying to learn from everyone else since I felt like I've done everything wrong.

I'm cheering for you Ace!!

Oh Chailover, your post blesses me so much. Somehow, when you expose your faults, hoping to reap solutions, it's so refreshing that folks like RIF, BR and others are so willing to invest in you (me).

Hearing that you and mvg and others are feeling the same thing is somehow comforting. I'm the weird one, I LIKE 2x4s because it helps me keep from doing the same dumb stuff over and over again. (And it's nice to know others care enough to say something before I fall off the ignorance cliff.) So if I can be the bold one to reveal my [email]cr@pola[/email] (as mvg says), and others can relate, it makes me feel good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR and RIF....my response is coming after I get back from church. Thank you soooo much for your replies. BR, I even pasted your 'recovery' story on the MB success stories thread.

Again, thanks,
Ace

Hi everyone! I was reading some material for my Al-Anon program, and I thought it would be very helpful to us over here too. The following is a article on Detachment, and I've gone through it and taken out references to alcoholism, and replaced it with infidelity.
Funny how just changing a few words can make a big difference!!

*****************

Detachment with Love

We cannot "Live and Let Live" if we do not attend to our own responsibilities instead of focusing on the responsibilities of others. To keep the focus on ourselves, we need to learn to "detach with love".

We learn how to cope with the infidelity of those we love and to detach from the behavior, not necessarily the person. Infidelity is a family dysfunction. This means family members are deeply affected, physically, emotionally, spiritually, socially and intellectually, even though they themselves are not unfaithful.

The stress of living with active infidelity can have numerous effects:

Physical - We may develop health problems such as headaches, high blood pressure, stomach aches, ulcers, panic attacks, insomnia, and heart problems.

Emotional - We may feel angry, resentful, lonely, guilty, or depressed.

Social - In relating to others, we may be distant, aloof, embarrassed, withfrawn, aggressive, arrogant, self righteous, judgemental, or controlling.

Intellectual - We may find it difficult to concentrate, make decisions, comprehend what we are hearing and reading.

Spiritual - Our outlook on life may become bitter, despairing, helpless, hopeless, or lacking in trust or faith.

With practice and with support from others we come to understand that detachment from the wayward spouse's problems does not mean that we stop caring about the person.

Keys to detaching with love:

Responsibility - The first key in detaching is to begin taking responsibility for our own behavior. We can no longer stumble through our lives blaming others for the way we feel and holding them accountable for whether we are happy or not. No one can make us feel anything. It is our reactions to the behavior that causes our anger, resentment, pain and disappointment. When we blame others for our own negative reactions, we hand over all our personal power to that person and we loose ourselves.

Acceptance - Acceptance is the next key. We need to look at the reality of what has happened in the past and what is happening now. Many of us stumble in the beginning over the incorrect thought that acceptance means approval. Acceptance does not mean that we feel ok about current or past circumstances, it only means that we stop trying to change what we have no power over. We have no power over the past or the wayward spouse.

Even with acceptance, we need to grieve the losses caused by infidelity in our families and in our lives. Dreams have faded, bubbles have burst. Acceptance gives us two things - acceptance of our feelings and also acceptance of the fact that we cannot change the other person - healing from our loss and disillusion is an inside job.

The Three C's

Detaching with love is easier when we remember the three C's - we did not cause the infidelity in another, we cannot control the infidelity or the wayward spouse, we cannot cure the infidelity or the wayward spouse.

Cause - Infidelity is an addiction. Just as we cannot cause someone to develop diabetes, cancer, or any other disease, we do not have the power to cause anyone else to become addicted. Every addicted person blames others for their addiction and their use - this is their denial and their disease. Accepting that blame becomes our prison.

Control - Despite our best intentions and efforts, controlling other people does not work. Relationships cannot grow and intimacy cannot develop if one person is controlling the other. We only have control over ourselves and how we respond to situations, other people and their behavior. Trying to control other peoples behavior may temporarily make us feel better and give us an illusion of being in control - but in the long run, it does not work.

Cure - Only the wayward spouse can seek help for his/her addiction. No matter what we do, the treatment for the addiction is not ours to hand out.


Words that stand in the way of detaching:

Why??
What if??
Yes, but...
I can't...
I'll try...


Why??

The main reason most of us ask why is because we believe with a little more knowledge and a few more details, we can "control" the situation and or person. Asking "why" only wastes our energy - it rarely changes anything.

What if??

What if's keep us from living in the reality of the moment and also keep us from admitting we are powerless. When we are in the past with the "whys" and the future with the "what ifs" we loose today. Today is the only day we have.

Yes, but...

When we "yes but.." we are not listening to what others have to say. We are being self centered and self absorbed, and in essence saying we are so unique that what has worked for countless others will not work in our situation. Each time we "yes but" we are cooking up excuses inside our heads and our minds are closed.

I can't..

This is our biggest lie to ourselves. The truth is not that we can't, but that we won't. It is where we let fear have control over our lives.

I'll try.

The saying, "to try is to lie" refers to how easily we fall into making excuses. If we say, "I'll try" we lack commitment. "I'll try" allows us to bide our time while looking for an excuse not to do whatever we have said we'll try.


H.O.W.

HOW do we detach?

H - Honesty with ourselves and others.

O - Openness to hearing new ideas and breaking old ways of thinking and behaving.

W - Willingness to take risks and try something different.

Detaching with love does not mean that we stop caring. It simply means that we quit trying to control someone else and their behavior. We stop creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior. We stop lying to ourselves, we accept the reality of who the person is instead of focusing on who they "could" be.

--------------------
~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~

Thanks for bumping this, BR. I will reply after I get back from church. This is sooooo helpful.

Ace

Gotta read and digest more of your post before I respond, BR. Thanks for your patience.

Ace

I guess I'll start with how I create comfortable ways for my DH to 'act out'.

Our basic modus operandi is so diabolically opposed that just functioning creates conflict, at least in the past. Here's an example: I balance our checkbook to the penny every month. DH has not balanced our other checkbook (both our names are on both accts. but I do the family checkbook and he does the fun checkbook) for years until recently. That's how he hid his financing of his A.

Tonight, he gave me a check to cover our vacation expenses now that the credit statement came in. He wrote it for more than I asked so I casually (and calmly) asked him when he last checked with the bank about the balance. He made a phone call and re-wrote the check because there is a substantial discrepancy in what his register says and what the bank auto system says.

Had I just cashed the check without questioning him, it would have bounced, incurring a $50 NSF fee. Did I control him? Or did I act responsibly for us? (He had a great attitude tonight and was very apologetic.)

How could I have created an environment that would have made such unacceptable behavior (writing a check without knowing how much is in the account) uncomfortable?

Thanks,
Ace

Tough one Ace.

I have the same problem EXCEPT H doesn't have another account, we have 1 and only 1 which I keep. Scares me sometimes that he doesn't have a clue, we're planning on going over our finances as soon as I can get it in a format that is logical for him.

I sure do hope some wise financial MB wizard comes along and gives some ideas..for you and me, because I want to use them when we do set our budget in a safe and open minded way.

bump

anyone have suggestions????

Hi Ace--

Given his tendency to not be as responsible as you with money, why is he responsible for the "other" checkbook?

Not talking about "responsibility" regarding his financing his affair, but responsible to balance it and know how much is in the account type of responsibility.

Is he responsible for the other checkbook to "share the burden" of financial management? to give him a sense of autonomy? so he doesn't feel like he has to ask you about major purchases?

Isn't your worry about him not responsibly tracking the account creating a burden on you? your marriage?

I'm not as good with money as my wife is. Simple fact.

I also don't spend as much as my wife does.

Part is historical -- she had part-time jobs in our early years when the kids were young and used the checkbook more that I did while I was at work (before these new-fangled debit card things). Made more sense for her to carry it. This has continued.

Occasionally, I take over the responsibility for balancing, paying bills, etc to give her a break. Usually she takes it back because I'm not doing it "her way" -- which is usually better than my way.

If "having" this account under his control is important to him or you don't want to take over balancing two checkbooks, then I might suggest one of two things:

1. You agree on a "checkbook balancing night" when both bank statements are available, you both sit down and balance both books together. If one statement has to sit for a week until the other arrives, you have to resist your urge to jump in and do it.

or

2. Help him move the account management to the computer. Many banks provide statements in the form of a download that is compatible with Quicken or MS-Money so you can balance it faster. It still requires him to enter the checks / deposits in the system, but it might provide him a better way to manage and balance it.

All this assumes that keeping accurate check on the finances and meeting your need of financial security (where this may be rooted) are both important to him.

It may be that he doesn't realize that this is not a trivial matter or "honest mistake" in your eyes.

Maybe some "out of the box" thinking to identify the root issue here is in order.

Blessings