Artor, I have a question for you, especially since you say you aren't the financial person in your household.

I'm trying to get my H involved in our finances, handling, knowing what's going on, the way I have the budget, etc. I am not apposed to changing anything except saving for future.

How have you and your W done this? Or how would you like to be broached with this type of info?

I want him to feel comfortable but involved also.
Thanks!

Hi Artor and mvg,


Great questions, Artor. The reasons for the other account have changed over the 12 years since we opened it. (I was commuting 3 hours full time, often staying overnight at my job 90 miles away .....so trying to juggle the one checkbook didn't work.)



mvg also asks great questions and I think I'll use both to bump the Affair$ $uck thread so we can keep this one about enabling and control (which can refer to financial management as well as other behaviors.)

In the meantime, my short answer to both questions is "I don't know". The long answer involves my laziness to confront the situation relating to Artor's questions.

****

To condense my example here are few questions with different scenarios:

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (unbalanced checkbook) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (balanced checkbook), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (refusing to use car signals) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (using car signals), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

If it is a known fact that your spouse has a certain habit (making piles not files) that is not as expedient for the relationship as the way you would do it (filing things immediately), is it being controlling or responsible to ask about the habit and suggest a change?

How does one 'make it uncomfortable for the unacceptable behavior' in these types of situations?

In the past, his standard answer was "unacceptable by your standards, but not mine". He does NOT do that anymore...says he wants to do everything my way....but that scares me, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I do NOT want to control him anymore.

Was it control or being responsible? Does 'being responsible' make controlling justifiable?

Thanks,
Ace

Ace--


Maybe I'm missing the gist of your statement, but isn't "making it uncomfortable" simply another form of control? Some type of operant conditioning that says, "Everytime you do X I want you to be uncomfortable."

Isn't the better case to express to your spouse how important "not doing X" is to you personally and your love bank and hope they make the appropriate adjustments?

I know that's not always possible or reasonable, but I'm not sure where the line is between control and "making it uncomfortable".

For your specific examples, I think the checkbook issue can be clearly tied to an Emotional Need and should be something that can be addressed by both.

The same thing, but to a lesser extent, goes for the "piles not files" concern, especially if the piles are of important documents or receipts or bills.

The turn signal one I'm not so sure about. Sure, it can be rude to not use turn signals and maybe dangerous, but I'm not so sure this isn't just an annoyance that justifies making him uncomfortable about.


I agree with your concern. If he "does it your way" to avoid making you unhappy or to avoid conflict, he may be slowly building resentment -- especially if he does A, B, and C your way and then you drop D, E and F on him as well.

Maybe perfecting the art of POJA is in order. He doesn't have to deal with the checkbook "your way" only.

Brainstorm ideas about how you can reach agreement on managing the checkbook or filing.

I'm sure he recognizes some papers are more important / different than others -- he's probably got a separate pile "somewhere around here" that's "important stuff".

Maybe the "files" aren't conveniently located and it's easier to make piles. Perhaps a smaller, easier to access file box near where he opens the mail or sorts through stuff could encourage him to file. I'm certainly guessing here, but these are actually things we've worked on in our marriage.

Blessings

Hi mvg--

"I'm not the financial person is my household"

This means I don't carry the checkbook (my wife always needed it more often), she reconciles it every month, she writes the checks for the bills.

But we do go over the budget together -- we have a spreadsheet that tracks our bills and breaks them up between the 1st and 2nd half of the month (old habit from military paydays).

If we are thinking about a major purchase, we discuss where to cut back or how much savings to use.

If we get a windfall we discuss how to use it (save, pay off debt, purchase, etc).

It may be the way things are in your house, but you said, "...the way I have the budget...".

He may not have been involved in creating the budget or managing it, but if both of your paychecks are used to support the budget, then the better way of looking at it is, "...the way OUR money is budgeted...".

Again, he may have been a silent partner or uninvolved, but it's still a budget he supports with a paycheck.

It's easy, as my wife and I both learned, for one spouse to assume too much ownership of the budget.

I applaud the fact you recognize this -- it should be a team effort.

If he claims he "doesn't have a head for money" or "doesn't want to be bothered" by the budget, then it probably has to start slow.

At the beginning of every month you might sit down with him and spend 20 minutes over coffee or dessert and look at the budget together or, as I've started doing, looking at where all the money went the previous month. I was surprised one month, as was my wife, at how much we spent eating out the previous month. A real shocker. Helped bring our spending back in line.

One other thought, and this is just a half-formed suggestion (that's my disclaimer), is approach him with a budget problem. If he's like me (and many guys) he's a fixer. Give me a problem and I'll help fix it. Ask him to help you respread the budget (if it needs it) or something like setting a long term goal: saving for a vacation (in addition to regular savings) or a new car or boat or TV or something would be a way to entice him to pay attention.

"Honey, I was thinking we could use a new TV (immediately you'll have his attention) and I was looking at flat screens at BestBuy. If we put aside some money every paycheck for XXX months, we could afford a nice one. Can we talk about how we can 'find' that money in our budget?"

My wife and I have had several successful conversations like that. Not about flat screen TVs, mind you, I still don't own one of those.

Just some thoughts, mvg.


The important part, in my opinion, is to keep it brief, non-confrontational and focused at first. Draw him in to wondering what really happens with the paycheck he brings home.

Blessings

Hi Artor,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I saw your reply on your Recovery thread and thought I'd try to clarify my issues here.

My question is regarding how to NOT control my husband while making sure we both doing things that are efficient and positive for our personal lives, marriage, family, jobs, etc. How do we know the difference between controlling and being responsible? You post helps regarding the checkbook issues but I'll address that on the Affair$ $uck thread.

In the meantime, you said about your wife on your Baaaaaad Weekend thread:


***

It seems the magic button would involve her saying "What boundaries can WE draw together so that WE can begin to rebuild your trust in me?" My DH has done that, but I fear he has overdone it.....possibly saying things and doing things he does not want to say/do, but stuffing his displeasure so "he doesn't get yelled at". I want him to want to do/say them....is that controlling, over controlling, or acting on too high of expectations?

To me, stuffing his true feelings just to please me is unacceptable behavior. I want to make it 'safe for him to share' and it seems I've failed at times. It appears I've made it 'comfortable for him to stuff his true feelings.' That's what I want to change in me.

***

Then you said on this thread:


***

I was referring to BrambleRose's Love with Detachment thread she bumped for me with the following quote:

***


Thanks, Artor....I think you've given me an Ahah! moment as to how I've misread BR's quote.

I think I've reversed her intention. Instead of "stopping creating comfortable environments for unacceptable behavior", I think I've been thinking I should 'create uncomfortable environments for unacceptable behavior'.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....now I have something else to ponder.

BR, are you out there? HELP!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your post, Artor......and for the new insights.

Ace

PS Please feel free to join mvg and I on the Affair$ $uck thread. If you haven't double posted, I'll move your ideas over there, too.

Artor Thanks for your suggestions. That just might be the ticket!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I have to agree when 'I' take care of all the money spending I do feel it's mine and that's exactly what I want to change. It's not mine, it's ours. Thank you.

To me, stuffing his true feelings just to please me is unacceptable behavior. I want to make it 'safe for him to share' and it seems I've failed at times. It appears I've made it 'comfortable for him to stuff his true feelings.' That's what I want to change in me.
Oh Acey me too!!!!

I've tried to make it comfortable for him to confess things he used to hide before. Sometimes it works.

But I see how I've failed when he gets defensive. Help, .....wish we didn't have to wait the whole weekend to see our MC. (In the meantime, anyone else have any suggestions for mvg and me?

Thanks,
Ace

Hey Ace My H got defensive over 'something (EA) we were talking about last night, I had to remind him I know it hurts him but he about killed me. I asked him to not get so defensive, just speak don't hold it in. We'll see...men are such weird characters (sorry guys).

Morning MVG!

I'm definitely NOT a financial wizard, but Mrs. RIF and I are using Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover plan and it works for us...

Dave is a big proponent of BOTH spouses working on the family budget...

Dave Ramsey.com

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF. I'm want to be a big propoent of BOTH working on, it's too much for 1 person to be responsible for.

Things quiet for you there?

Hey countdown has begun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> for your R&R!

Hey, I resemble that remark -- Men, weird, character -- yep -- that's me.

So, mvg, how did the conversation start about his EA?

I ask because I don't think the fact that your husband is a man is driving his defensiveness or unwillingness to talk.

I think it's the fact he was the wayward spouse.

At least, if I compare it to my situation -- my wife is not a man (something I'm really happy about) but she gets defensive when any topic that relates to her affairs is broached.

She was the most defensive and resistant to sharing when the topic just came up or I sprung it on her.

I came to the point and conclusion that I needed to allow her at least the illusion she had some control over the timing of the conversations.

We tried the, "set aside a specific, regular time every week to discuss the affairs / marriage / etc". She came to dread that time and make snide comments about it.

So the approach that has worked for me thus far that keeps her from going into DEFCON (Defensive Conversation) Mode 5 and locking down is to say, "I'd really like to discuss something and would like to know when you'd feel up to talk about it."

She knows it relates to our marriage / her affairs / the fallout because I approached her this way.

She has the option to say, "Not now -- how about tonight" or "OK, now's a good time".

She usually "wants to get it over with" and agrees to talk then, but I do give her the option to postpone it until later.

You might try it -- it makes it clear that you need to talk and won't be swayed from discussing the issue, but you give them the latitude to choose a reasonable time.

The other thing we've learned is when a conversation that started out NOT being about an uncomfortable subject suddenly strays into "affair talk", I try to stop it and say, "This is going somewhere else -- maybe we should talk about THAT aspect later" (if it's something either of us thinks is worth chasing).

It's hard sometimes because, as the betrayed spouse, we sometimes feel that we DESERVE to discuss this most painful experience anytime, anywhere for any reason. We have a RIGHT to talk and our wayward spouse has a RESPONSIBILITY to participate.

And, for the most part, I agree -- we do have a RIGHT to discuss it, but we've got to be careful we don't abuse that right and beat our spouse over the head with it.

Just my thoughts.

Blessings

Well said Artor!

You've described what I mean when I talk about making a "Safe" place for your spouse... We BS's do have a "right" to get answers to our questions... but if you want to rebuild, then you have a Responsiblity to treat your spouse with love and respect.

I see many newly BS here that have a hard time dealing with this concept. I had a hard time as well... I think that if you look at the couples that eventually DO rebuild their M, you'll find that this is one of the key elements that the BS must overcome in order to rebuild the M.

Hey MVG - Dave has a solid plan and he explains how to most couples have a "nerd" that likes dealing with money, and the other one could care less... He even gives example on how to get the 'reluctant' spouse involved... He has several books and his website has a lot of good information as well...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Artor, you're so funny. Please pop in sometime to our Recovery Vacation thread. RIF's the night watchman and mvg carries the early morning shift when RIF drifts off!! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've enjoyed your updates on your recovery thread, Artor. When is your next (if ever) MC session?

***

Defensiveness. I failed in that dept. last night. My H was remorseful and repentive an hour later but I feel like I made him defensive.....gotta ask those questions right so they don't feel like they're being beaten over the head. Obviously, I haven't learned that yet.

It's that control thing. I'm in a Catch 22. Here's what happened. (I was gonna post it on Trials & Smiles, but it fits here.)

We see MC every 6 weeks and except for the near meltdown on our vacation, we've done really well since our last session Oct. 31. (That blowup turned out to be a good thing~~~did you see my poem about it, Artor?)

Anyhow, I saw some deleted emails about non-A habits DH is striving to overcome. Our agreement is that he will tell me when he opens any of these and NOT empty his trash until I've seen them.

He didn't tell me before I found two of them in his trash.

I called MC to ask if we should see him sooner or later. We have an appt. for Monday, but he suggested I try to approach DH on this to see if we could take care of it ourselves.

When I first brought up the "is this a good time, I have a question," DH turned off the TV and was all ears right then.

But he got increasingly uncomfortable. I backed off.

I tried, I failed. When DH got defensive, I withdrew saying "I only ask because I care, Fine, I won't ask anymore." ( I know, I gaslighted......aaargh!!! don't tell LA <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

We'll have MC help us if we can't get it together before Monday.

Control. By asking the question calmly, I must have tried to control him. Or did I? I thought I was making it 'safe for him to share'....he has before. But not last night.

So goes another chapter....

Any blazing ideas?

Ace

Artor, more on my EA conversation here What happened?

It's hard sometimes because, as the betrayed spouse, we sometimes feel that we DESERVE to discuss this most painful experience anytime, anywhere for any reason. We have a RIGHT to talk and our wayward spouse has a RESPONSIBILITY to participate.
I agree totally with you. The conversation didn't start out A talk, was just my sharing feelings unfortunately A came up as an example of what we were talking about...MY needs.

We got through it after BOTH of us recognizing what was happening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I feel we crossed a bridge together.

Ace, when H raised his voice and body language indicated anger, I too backed down ...told H never mind doesn't even matter. You know what he said???? Yes it does matter! (YIKES) We were able to continue our conversation, I knowing he was uncomfortable, he knowing I was hurting...it came out wonderful.

I kept repeating to my H this is how I FEEL, this is NOT blaming you, I need your help. I asked him if he I made him feel like the bad guy or was beating up on him, he said honestly NO. He took what I had to say so well, expect for that one little LB..ok and my DJ.

I hope that helps you in some way. (((ACE)))

So glad to hear this, mvg.



Thanks for the hug and for sharing. It really blesses me to see you guys making progress. I look at our present challenge as an opportunity to overcome something that will give me empathy with future posters who experience it.

So glad to hear about your bridge crossing and continued conversations, mvg. This does help me in a big way.

Ace

This is really good, mvg. I'm happy for you. Enjoy the good feelings.

Quick response Ace -- gotta run --


No, I certainly don't think asking a question calmly is a form of control (except self-control). It is a healthy way to approach the topic. Sure if you screamed the question at him or used an intimidating tone of voice it could be a form of control, but that's not the case here.

In my opinion (and there are others on here with more educated opinions), CONTROL is evidenced mostly in the wording we choose to use, body language and other non-verbals.

Don't know if any of these were the case, but sometimes when a person is cornered and know they are "caught", they'll go into a defensive posture no matter how "polite" we are.

If your husband has been spending a significant amount of time "always" admitting he was wrong -- "it was my fault", "I'm sorry", "You deserve better than me", "Whatever you say, dear" ... he may be getting to the tipping point where any resentment or frustration with "always being wrong" is reaching it's limit.

I think that's can actually be a good thing for a former wayward spouse who has been beating themself up for their mistakes and letting their Giver have control in deference to the betrayed spouse.

They're starting to re-seek balance and equity.

Ace (OK, this isn't so short) -- the topics of him balancing the checkbook and making piles not files -- those really don't have anything to do with his affair, right? Sure he may have used money from the account to finance his affair, but he still wouldn't have balanced the checkbook even if he didn't have the affair, right?

Do conversations about these marital differences sometimes / usually roll around to insinuations or references to his affair?

I really don't know how controlled you are -- I know I personally have a problem separating the affair-related issues from the non-affair related issues in our marriage.

I think it's because the affairs hurt so much that it makes me much less tolerant of the other issues.

Don't know if you're struggling with this -- I know I do, but my wife seems to do the same thing -- when we're talking about a non-affair related marital issue, she balls up like an armadillo.

Now I really have to run.

Blessings

Hey Acey,

Part of being honest requires you to share your TRUE feelings.

In your example, you started off well by asking your DH if now was a good time to talk... Then when you could sense that your DH was becoming defensive you "withdrew" your HONEST feelings.

One of the things that I learned from our MC was that I had to let Mrs. RIF know my TRUE feelings, and then it was up to HER to process it and deal with it. The same was true for me, Mrs. RIF had to let me know HER true feelings and then it was MY responsiblity to deal with it.

I know that we've been talking about making a "safe" place for our spouses, but "safe" isn't the same thing as "honest". In my mind, safe means that I'm not blowing up at Mrs. RIF with DJs or LBs... when we were dealing with the past A's, 100% of my questions were VERY uncomfortable for Mrs. RIF. The hard questions and the "pain" of answering just comes with rebuilding...

I hope this makes some sense... if not, I'll try to explain it again...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Great points, Artor and RIF. Will respond later.

Thanks,
Ace