Ace,

I see the control, but not where you might think.



You think you have the power to control his response? You are not responsible for his reaction. He is.

I see you beating yourself over the head because of something he chose to do. He's a grown man. He has the choice to respond with defensiveness or to listen openly and he is responsible for the consequences that come with each of those choices.

Hey Acey - I know you're taking a break... just wanted to check in with 'ya and see how the MC session went...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks RIF, Froz, Artor and all....

We had the most intense MC session ever. It went very well considering. It will take me a bit to process all that happened but I will post it later either here or on the Smiles and Trials 2 Recovery Thread.

Thanks all for your interest, concern and prayers.

Ace

I haven't forgotten you, RIF, Artor or Froz, but I only had time to post my intense MC session update on the Smiles & Trials 2 thread. Will be back here to comment later.

Thanks for your patience,
Ace

Hey Acey!

I read your other thread!

Great Job!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

Artor, Froz, RIF, mvg, others.....

Thanks for your patience and sorry it took me so long to get back to you all. The defensiveness issue grew later that day when DH blatantly covered up and lied about health issues, in spite of our POJA to confide in each other re: medical issues before seeking pro help (details on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread.) This is due to his withholding and lying about an ER visit related to heart issues which I discovered on D-Day #1 while looking for evidence of his A. My responses will be related to his prior defensiveness as well as his cover up and lies.

Artor said:


He actually confirmed this in our MC session. And the fact that I stayed calm and controlled while MC was 'lecturing' him seems to have pulled the remaining fog scales from his eyes. I posted on my Smiles and Trials 2 thread that he seems to see me in a different light than before he lied.

*********************

Froz said:


You're so wise, Froz. DH and discussed 'why he lied' and the predominant reason was in rebellion for my attempts to control him and his stuffing his real feelings. So my greatest fears (him blowing up after stuffing feelings) were realized involving a trivial lie* and not a reconnection with OW. THANK GOD!!!!! (And thank you Froz for your renter/buyers thread)

* Froz points out in a subsequent post that there is no such thing as a "trivial lie". This sentence should state that my DH chose to commit a series of serious lies about a trivial matter. Thanks to Froz.

****************************************

RIF said:


RIF, my withdrawing of my feelings regarding my DH suspected lying was to await MC's help. So I vented via email, withdrew from the forums for the weekend and focused on meeting DH's needs for the next few days.

But the end result gives us a new foundation upon which to follow through on sharing honest feelings. I would love more input on how you differentiate between "safe" and "honest".

Thanks to all for your insights. Amazingly, DH now says that he sees me as caring, not controlling. I no longer need to try to control because he shows how much he cares and values me. It's actually a positive Catch 22.....and I have no idea how it happened....oh yeah, DH finally blew..... and by the grace of God and our insightful tough MC, we're back on the rails of recovery....well...for today, at least!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. Maybe DH now gets it...time will tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey Acey - Nothing 'earthshattering'...

In my mind, safe is where our spouse knows that our response will be in a loving, respectful manner... no LB, no yelling or screaming...

honest - means that we tell our spouse our TRUE feelings, even if we know that is going to hurt them.

Hope that makes sense...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I have to ponder this a bit before replying, RIF. Thanks for explaining it but I do have a question. (When I figure out how to word it, I'll ask.)

Ace

What is a trivial lie?

If it's trivial, why lie?

If a person will lie about an issue that isn't earth shattering, wouldn't it seem logical that they would lie about some that IS earth shattering?

While dishonesty might not mean that a spouse is having an affair, IMO it means that your marriage is not affair-proof and therefore is very vulnerable to an affair.

For me, it is living in a marriage where that sort of protection is not being provided that is unacceptable, rather than another affair itself.

Pre-MB I didn't have any knowledge of these concepts. Pre-MB I didn't feel as though I had the right to question my safety if I couldn't prove that I wasn't being protected.

Now I know better.

Now I know that real protection is to have no question in my mind that I am safe.

And I am not safe in a marriage where dishonesty exists at all. Those grounds are far too fertile to offer any sort of safety or protection.

Good point, Froz and I'll clarify and then fix the above post. DH chose to commit a series of serious lies about a very trivial matter.

The good thing is he said he has an appt. to meet with his mentor next week. Last year, he was withholding issues like this from his mentor that I did not discover until I met with mentor's wife (who had gotten the impression that all was peachy fine). We did not have an MC at the time so I had to confront DH about it alone.....hence I could not keep the lid on the LBs that flew out of my mouth (and head and hands and knees and feet...etc.) This was pre-MB so that was par for the course.

Anyhow, when DH said he had this appt. set up (usually every other week), I merely said "Oh"....but I thought I might call mentor's wife like I did last year.

In the next moment, however, DH said "I'm going to bring this up to see if he did the same stupid stuff." (Mentor had been a serial cheater when W D'd him, but they remarried 2 years later 37 years ago.)

I asked "What stupid stuff are you referring to?"

DH said "This appt. and why I covered it up and lied about it. And how awesome you've been and so supportive of me in my stupidity....."

WOWOWOWOW! This is a new step for us.....total transparancy seems imminent if hasn't already arrived.

Thanks for reading, Froz and for posting this important discrepancy.


Safety, protection, trust after a major breach......someone on MB said s/he is working on a post to define this and how it might differ for Christians who put their trust in God and non-Christians who can only trust on their own (or other) resources. I'm curious about this perspective.

Thanks,
Ace

I am very curious to read that post, as well.

A lot of times I read posts that state that the Christian perspective is to forgive all sin. Biblically, that is a misinterpretation.

Paraphrasing, the Bible says that while we should forgive sin, it is foolish to reconcile with someone who has not changed course.

I agree with you, Froz. My problem is with having the ability to know whether or not the person has changed course when I'm not sure if I can trust that the person has been remorseful and repented for the sin.

My question relates to whether or not blind trust is gone forever after betrayal of the marriage vows.

Does its status in the marriage relationship differ whether one is a Christian or not?

I had asked this poster to put his extensive thoughts on my Smiles & Trials 2 thread, but maybe I'll ask that it be posted here, too.

It seems like the answers could relate to the issue of control and enabling, too.

Ace

Hey Acey! - Ok, another 'serious' question... I'm not nearly as eloquent as FH, but I'll give it a try...

When you say "Blind Trust" I'm assuming that you are referring to Blind Trust that your DH won't hurt you again by having another A...

For me, there is no more "Blind Trust" that Mrs. RIF won't hurt me again by having another A. I don't think that she will, but I have no illusions that she's not CAPABLE of having another A.

I will say that I don't worry about Mrs. RIF having another A because I know that we have both given our lives to Christ and that HE is at the center of our M. I trust Christ to lead and guide me as I lead and guide our family. I know that with Christ at the center of our M, that Mrs. RIF and I can and will be stronger and will be able to fight off any attacks on our M.

If one of us willfully decides to place our focus or trust on anything else, then it is possible to stray.

I probably didn't answer your question... but hopefully, I've given you something to think about.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Ace, I have to think on things LA has said on Blind Trust. If I'm remembering correctly we should've never believed in blind trust to begin with. Blind trust is just that BLIND. I personally now think we have to trust with our eyes wide open. If you don't have your eyes wide open how can you miss the potholes?

disclaimer: If I have misquoted LA's explanation, I plead the 5th.

Ace,

I agree with RIF and mvg.

And I don't view the lack of blind trust as uncaring. In fact, I believe the contrary to be true. Keeping an eye on your marriage means that you are willing to do your part in protecting it. I think it is an act of care.



I'm right there with ya and boy do I understand that statement.

Probably the biggest initial indicator to me that someone is not changing course is the lack of taking personal responsibility.

When I see WS's who are blaming anyone but themselves for the consequences of their actions, displaying self-pity, and complaining about how the consequences of their choices are affecting THEM it tells me that their sympathies are for themselves and the remorse they feel is that they got caught and that their sense of entitlement is ever-present, otherwise I don't see how they could possibly manage to view themselves as some sort of victim.

For as long as any of the above elements are present, I don't see how that person could possibly even begin to change course because it isn't likely that someone will change what they don't own as their property. Why would someone change if they view someone else as the problem?

If you were truly remorseful and took full responsibility for your actions...what would that look like?

If I were remorseful and serious about changing, I would not:

Complain about how sucky my life was in the presence of my victim...how disrespectful and inconsiderate would THAT be?

Procastinate cleaning up my mess and allowing my victim (who was willing to put forth effort at rebuilding something that I destroyed) to deal with the consequences that they didn't cause for any longer than was absolutely necessary. I would show my remorse by making it my highest priority.

I wouldn't disrespect them by rebelling against transparency. How cruel is it to allow someone who is willing to give me another chance (which I am not owed) to live in fear?

I wouldn't disrespect my victim by expecting them to shoulder the burden of consequences for a choice I made...meaning if I had an affair with some guy at a bar, I wouldn't continue to go to bars and tell my spouse that they were being unreasonable for being uncomfortable with it.

I could go on, but I imagine you get the general picture.

Procastinate cleaning up my mess and allowing my victim (who was willing to put forth effort at rebuilding something that I destroyed) to deal with the consequences that they didn't cause for any longer than was absolutely necessary. I would show my remorse by making it my highest priority.

Oh Froz you hit the nail on the head for me!

My question is how long before a WS does this? My H is making positive changes in how he treats me but won't go that extra mile to inquiry as to what I NEED to see his remorse. Does that make sense?

I'm the one who had to push for Counseling, which didn't work. I'm the one who found MB which he agreed to but doesn't put into action. He read the info, nodded his head, filled out the ENQ's and that's it. He will still say the EA is an open wound if I need to talk about something that relates to it.

Is there a normal 'time period' that THEY take the initiative?

Not to discourage you, mvg....but it seems my DH has FINALLY done this......(made my recovery top priority).

.....after he lied recently and got busted, it SEEMS that he finally tired of the heaviness .......of having something to hide.

He said he lied partially because I seemed to want to control him and he tried to see if he could escape undetected.

But, with God's help (a 'sign' from the Vacation thread discussion) I discovered it BEFORE our regular (6 week) MC session.

Whooo Hooooo! It's been a week and he is sooooooo much more intense in his recovery efforts. It wasn't fun to be tubed by our MC in front of me. That was his lowest of low points....and it happened only 8 days ago. YIKES. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Without the help I've received from this thread, I think I might have sabotaged the process. But I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT and let MC lecture......mind you SCOLD DH for at least 20 minutes. (DH was so devastated, he offered me a D and posession of everything during the session.) MC really helped us get back on track, calling it a setback, but not an insurmountable one.

I just saw on your thread that you're not in MC now, mvg. Even if it didn't work previously there must be more MC's than the one you went to. I would be gone (or he would be) without our present MC.....and MB.

Ace

Better MC than you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm learning, Froz.....also thanks for the buyers/renters thread you started. Still working on those concepts.

Keeping mouth shut is a huge milestone for me. MC noticed and so did DH.

Thanks,
Ace

You're very welcome, Ace. I'm glad it was helpful. If you have any questions, I'm bored and trying to avoid housework. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Keeping mouth shut...now there is one of my NOT strong skills.