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WH has agreed and thinks MB is a good & logical program and willing to participate. His IC wasn't working, not a good fit with counselor. The problem? He puts off and off and off filling out the questionaires. Took several weeks to do the ENQ, and now several more weeks have gone by and no LBQ. (I think we should've done the LB 1st, I plead ignorance on this). I wrote him a note asking if he was still willing to participate and if so when. He told me last night he will start working on it tonight.

He has been more attentive however is not meeting my most important EN's. I am meeting his EN's according to the ENQ.

What am I doing wrong? Should I just drop it and see IF he decides to participate. I felt like I was pushing him to fill these out to quickly but I give him weeks and it just doesn't happen. During the weeks that it's taking I don't mention them at all, then my weakness will kick in and I ask do you still want to do this. No answer, just I'll do it tonight/tomorrow/this weekend.

I'm not sure how to interpret this behavior? I don't know what to do or not do, and I'm starting to feel like this is a lost cause- that there is no committment from him.

I'm so tired of being in limbo. It's really draining my love for him. And right now I can't come up with any reasons why I love him (Is that a normal BS feeling?) other than we've been together forever.

Help.

Last edited by mvg; 10/28/07 12:55 PM.
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forgive me pleaes if I am a little abrupt here.

you wrote him a note?


eh? ( and no I am soo not canadian)

here's what you could do-talk to him ask him-be assertive-piss on your carpet.

how's

Honey, I am feeling a little pissed off you have not filled out your doodahhs, I would appreciate after all the effort I have put in and the promises you gave me , a little more input from you.

if not procratinate somewhere else.

thanx

xoxox

Peace

Max

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and Max how would that conversation not been a LB? I AM PI$$ED and that would have come across.

Yes I could've verbally asked him...I'm tired of the excuses, so I wrote him a note to actually give him time to think about it...ok either he wants to participate or not.

I wasn't asking if the note was appropriate I was asking about HIS procrastination and what others thought that might be. Ok my antenna is up, my gut reaction isn't good, however I'm anxious so I'm asking for other MBer's opinion.

And just for what it's worth, I ususally am that up front.


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ohh buggar love busters.

if you are tired, you are tired


stop procrastinating woman

do something about it

later

Max
ps. edit...don't ya hate it when you can't spell

Last edited by madmax1; 10/04/07 11:48 AM.
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Hey Max what's your story? You seem pretty direct to the point of being agressive. I don't get where you are coming from, it doesn't seem to be the MB principals you are applying.

Yes I can be direct with WH, I can get down right pissy with him, but is that going to help me in the long run? Yes I want him to s$$t or get off the pot but that's NOT what I'm suppose to do according to MB is it?

Do you think I'm just being whiney about my situation? It's pretty serious to me.


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You can't "make" your H do anything. You aren't responsible for "getting" him to fill out the questionnaires.

But you can - and should - tell him how you feel.

"I noticed that you haven't gotten around to filling out the questionnaires, although you agreed to. It's really frustrating to me when you don't do what you say you'll do."

"Honey, we agreed that this program would help us save our marriage. You don't seem to be really participating, though, unless I nag you about it. I don't like nagging, but I feel like otherwise we stall out and don't make any progress. I think that our marriage depends on both of us making this a priority."


And be ready with your boundary enforcements if he doesn't want to do it. Decide if this is a make-or-break thing for you, and how you will react. You can't control him, you can only control you. Maybe you make an appointment and start seeing an MC who will walk you both through each step and hold him accountable. Maybe you can brainstorm with him other ways to keep him accountable. Maybe he needs things presented differently -- like the home study course or an MB weekend or talking to one of the Harley's.

Communicate your feelings (and notes may be easier, but talking to him and then listening to how he feels might get more accomplished) and figure out your boundaries and what you'll do if he crosses them. That's pretty much all you can do until someone develops a remote control that controls your spouse and makes them do what you want (yikes, that sounds a little scary....).

-AmI.

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I am very much; get with the program-or get

I learnt that early on.

And no…I don’t think you are being whiny.

I think you have a predicament

And I know you know what to do.

Soo stop procrastinating.

sHoW nO FeAr

And set your boundaries.

Peace

Max

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Well, if hubby has spent most of his life being self-centered, it will be hard for him to change now.

I suggest counseling, with the Harleys if you can afford it. He needs to start on some kind of recovery plan. And he probably needs to hear it from someone besides you.

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Thank you for you input. I guess it's over. My heart is breaking tho.


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Why do you say it is over?

Your husband is being pretty much the typical WS. They would prefer to sweep it all under the rug, and continue life with no consequences or work.

But that is not the way to a real recovery. That is why you need to tell him that you want to go to counseling for a recovery plan, because it isn't happening. He needs to hear it from someone other than you.

The affair is over, so I am hopeful. You are still very early in this. Don't settle for anything less than a much better marriage than you had before.

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You can't make him do anything.

If he won't do the work of recovery, shouldn't that be a boundary?

You state what you need (ask for what you need) and if he can't/won't pony up, you impose the consequences.


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Why do you say it is over?

Your husband is being pretty much the typical WS. They would prefer to sweep it all under the rug, and continue life with no consequences or work.

But that is not the way to a real recovery. That is why you need to tell him that you want to go to counseling for a recovery plan, because it isn't happening. He needs to hear it from someone other than you.

The affair is over, so I am hopeful. You are still very early in this. Don't settle for anything less than a much better marriage than you had before.

I posted this wondering if this was normal WH behavior. I posted this wondering is my reaction normal. I posted this hoping to have responses that might help me decide how I should act...keep being pleasant, trying, while keeping boundaries or start hard nosing. I know I can't MAKE him do anything...thats obvisious (sp?), and I don't want to.I NEED him to WANT to do this.

I don't plan on settling. That's part of the problem, I allowed myself to settle for less than what was possible and it didn't get me where I thought it would! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> In the past I have had to beg for help,love, attention, affection and even with that most of the time it was just indifference.

We can't afford the Harley's. I don't think he'll do MC but that's on the table for him to decide. I don't think he'll change. He's still turning the tables and blaming/guilting me.

When I talk to him about my En's, he's saying he's trying, but can't change over night. However, I'm NEVER suppose to talk about how his sorted EA effects me, that's just throwing it in his face.

Thanks for letting me vent. Bad go around last night so who knows if he'll even be here when I get home from work.

Believer, is it ok if I use this thread to just post my ventings sorta like a journal or do you think it would be better not to do that here?


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You can't make him do anything.

If he won't do the work of recovery, shouldn't that be a boundary?

You state what you need (ask for what you need) and if he can't/won't pony up, you impose the consequences.

Yes if he won't do recovery that should be a boundary. My question was HOW LONG should you wait before imposing the consequence?

I'm an impatient person, if something needs done I do it. He's not like that. So while I'm wondering what's going on with him and his delay I hesitate because I am an impatient person and am trying to be reasonable with someone who I'd like to choke till his eyeballs popout at times.

In a nutshell, is this normal, how long do I wait for him to get with it, do I wait it out, or do I say enough is enough and move on?


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Mvg,

Pre-A, did he procrastinate?

LA

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Yup

However that has been brought to his attention again and again especially since EA. I don't understand why except either could care less or lazy. Neither are acceptable anymore and he knows that. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO is this his way of saying to me I don't want this M anymore BUT wants me to be the one to say it?

I also wonder if by avoiding he thinks I'll just eventually forget it, and get back to the old marriage? I keep telling him old is GONE never to be seen again, it's either NEW BETTER IMPROVED or over.

I'm really down. I can't, don't even want to, pull this M wagon by myself anymore.

Last edited by mvg; 10/05/07 10:17 AM.

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So this isn't A-related...it's about him, within him, mvg?

I link procrastination to passive-aggressive behaviors. I found it in myself...and rooted around until I got down to a really old voice in my head...and it said...

"You can't tell me what to do."

Took me way back. My DH had sometimes intense P/A behaviors. Through MC and focus, he realized at the seat of his procrastination was making agreements he didn't really agree to...

If he had said to you, "I don't want to fill out the EN questionnaire and I fear not agreeing to do it," what would you have said?

I'm trying to bring a lot of stuff we were learning at the time together, and it's difficult for me. Everything affected other things...

I was learning about my own LBs, how to be safe without sacrifice, and working on my resentment.

Things I know occurred around that time:

We learned that the "shoulds" are dangerous to a relationship. We stopped shoulda on each other. Used that word as a signal...now, we even chuckle when we hear it from ourselves or the other.

We learned about the pursuer/distancer relationship as part of the should-thing. I learned that what I felt when he shut me out was as intensely painful to him when he felt engulfed, taken over...demanded of.

That was big.

In hindsight, each agreement my DH had made to do something which he didn't really agree with, was made from his fear of consequences...he felt choiceless. My disappointment was painful to him. So he would agree to avoid the disappointment temporarily, and distract until I ran out of gas. It was our cycle, not just his...

I had to really look at my expectations of him...to do what he said he was going to do...wasn't unreasonable. What I wasn't prepared to do was to accept him NOT agreeing to do something that was important to me.

Had to find my half of that loop we were caught in and stop.

I took a lesson from the pursuer/distancer dance and stopped pursuing, even his agreements. I shared only...no requests. What he volunteered to do was accepted by me...without expectation of it being done.

This was really difficult for me. When my focus was consumed on him, what he was and wasn't doing, it was exceedingly difficult. When my focus was strongly on me, my half, it was easier, daily.

This wasn't me earning blamelessness...this was me really seeing where I expected him to fix what was in me...which was mine...way back, long before I met him.

To me, it's the groundwork which must come before the EN-meeting gets really going...it's the cause behind the symptoms.

My DH does not procrastinate, and hasn't, in two years. It's amazing, really, given this was his automatic habit...an unconscious boundary enforcement which ham-stringed him...what he wrestled with within himself, for most of his 44 years.

I didn't cure him of it, wasn't the cause or control of it. We were side by side through this change...I was there to hear...to share my own discoveries in the places I ran into "You can't tell me what to do." Working out my own P/A behaviors.

He keeps his promises. He does more than that now...he keeps his promises to himself.

Took me understanding what respect really is...and that my part, taking his lack of action, his procrastination, his feelings, thoughts, perceptions as about me...was half of the dance we did.

Stop dancing.

Work on your own LB's...assumptions are very sneaky...they become our habits, under our own radars, and they kick our own butts. Measuring, judging, examining...see if your thought-time is more on doing this than discovering within yourself.

Like getting clean before intrepreting behaviors...learning to listen authentically (to know, not to fix/change/get)...I believe it's teaching ourselves how to really partner, and stop our parenting ways.

That's the trigger...old FOO in DH...same as within me. Wasn't us doing it to each other...we first did it to ourselves.

LA

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LA,
That's alot to digest. And I want to really think on what you've said carefully before I respond.

I do DEEPLY appreciate your responding.

I am in a deep deep hole and am trying to think through/separate my issues from his issues from OUR issues and work on them.

I hope you'll still be around after I've thought this through. THANK YOU


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Gosh, mvg...I'm like gum on MB's shoe. I'll be here.

And a hole is a great way to visualize those loops...surrounding you. You can practice your way out of it.

LA

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LA,

I, too, am in the same place as mvg, with NC established in early June.

I have read carefully what you posted and would like you to elaborate. Did you NOT ask anything of your FWH? Are we not to ASK for what we need? Are we to continue waiting for them to get it on their own, no MC, no IC, no friends to talk to, no books read, nothing outside of themselves.

Do you agree that BOTH parties need to engage in the marriage and not just their own personal recovery?

I hear a lot about making personal changes, for which I have and continue to do. I also give to my H in whatever way he is receptive, and do ask for what I need. I assume nothing, and when I do, I come here and get thwacked and learn and grow and move on.

I just wonder how long to continue doing this before results begin to be seen. I can recover personally, of that I'm sure. I cannot recover a M without some sign from my FWH that this is his choice, and he's not just WAITING for things to change.

Since mvg needs to have a similar conversation, I thought it would be good to post my questions here. If you would like to carry this over to my thread, that's cool too.

Your post above sounds promising, I just want to know HOW to accomplish this.


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SL,

I know you're hearing this as an unending nothing...an extreme. It's not. Sure can feel like that.

Since June...wow...you're in those wave days...when the heartbreak still comes in like a tide at times? The pain hits and then the anger jumps...anxiety, concern, fear?

We were in MC before WH chose the marriage...we began MC 10/12/04...I found a Christian pro-marriage counselor online and asked WH if he would go with me...I asked on the day he told me that he was in first love with OW.

NC didn't begin for three months after that, SL. And he went NC to help him decide, with a clear head, whether to leave the marriage for OW, for himself or stay and work on it for a two-year period.

His A was short...about two months, physically...only she was in his head as a fantasy for nearly two years prior. Withdrawal sucked...and was so necessary. At one point he said, "I won't love her if I don't think about her!"

We learn what we learn, SL. Not forever...just for right now...I required NC...and there was contact. Not in my control. What WH did was to take action...to get a transfer...and that wasn't in my control, either.

My choice was to stay, to stand for my marriage...me, who had done so much, so often, to wreck it.

I'm all for asking for what we need...only after we have done our internal research to understand what we need, why we need it, and if it is what we aren't giving ourselves...to clarify our own signals.

That was different than before. To know what is old pattern from new...the differences. How can we build new marriages with old stuff?

My old stuff was the all-or-nothing perspective...if I saw the past as all my sacrifice, then to fix it, I would sacrifice nothing...and MC said, "Zero from 180 is still sick." And it is...it's signalling I'm not in my adult perspective (best of life is in the 90-degrees middle)...I'm in my child's perspective...fix by doing the opposite...which is reasonable as you work towards the middle...not reasonable when you stop there.

Oppositional.

My neediness was so huge my DH felt swamped, annihilated, taken over...wiped out. Enmeshment meant to me that I didn't know where I ended and my DH began. Breaking that fantasy, to see us as two separate, equal, whole individuals in one union was where I had to get before I went to the meeting ENs, defining and charting, measuring.

I wasn't trustworthy with my measuring stick.

I had to really understand the ways I mothered my spouse and to stop. Check my acts against my standard of respect (which was new)...and know what he did was about him...not me.

Three parts of the marriage, your half, his half, and The Marriage. I learned what I would do for the Marriage when I didn't feel like doing it for DH...not sacrificing at all...honoring my marriage. See, The Marriage didn't tell my DH what to do...he knew how to honor our union...just had a hard time doing so because I might benefit.

Inner children are real...you can hear and see it. "No, I don't want any chocolate if HE's going to get some." Sibling stuff, parental...all those incredible influences right there...cut off our nose to spite our face. As long as I can hurt him enough to stop hurting me.

Snake eating himself.

I didn't wait for anything...I was busy working on my own sharing, seeing if I was upholding my own boundaries...listening to really listen...sharing to share, not to get him to respond...all those things foreign to me.

He saw my work, my changes...he was startled out of his shoes when I was no longer a force to be resisted, pushed against, blamed (and took blame out of our marriage)...

I was living up to MY promises...me, the promise-keeper...who was the vow-breaker.

To this day, he says he admires me so much for my changes...didn't believe they were real, that they would last, he shares his old fears and new ones.

I chose not to believe my DH for another year and a half. I listened to know, not to rely on...not to assume, form opinions or beliefs about HIS stuff...

He felt pain from not being believed or trusted...didn't stop him from working on his stuff.

Would I have done all this without him in MC? Would he have continued if I hadn't stated my appreciation of his sharing, doing communication exercises?...and no, he has no friends to talk to, doesn't read MB, doesn't read the books, doesn't research. It's a mix for a new dance...I don't know.

LostHusband said that expectations are pre-meditated resentments. Well, unreasonable ones are...and if you can't tell the difference between what it is you're willing to accept or not, and what he's willing to do or not...then maybe understanding your own expectations is real.

Yes, WS have to earn their way back...part of the redemption package. For them. I couldn't make my DH engage in the marriage rebuilding in the way I wanted, when I wanted him to...that realization came to me through Alanon. Seeing my expectations, all applied to him, not me (that all or nothing), were kicking my own butt. And they were mine. My doing, not his.

That included not looking at him for results...and making sure I shared my own results...all along the way. When I shared what I was working on in myself with DH, I didn't know I was making him my partner again, after having made him my enemy. I was, though. Holding to being open and honest instead of focusing on him being open and honest made all the difference.

Which is why I say that changing ourselves changes everything. Doesn't make anyone else choose differently...it happens when WE choose differently.

When you say you assume nothing of him...do you resent assuming nothing? Do you find the reward in it within yourself? The delight and joy of NOT knowing right now?

Do you give only what he's receptive to? Shifting that to acting from your love, your choice, and letting the outcome go? If an act of DS gives you a thrill or a whisper of peace, and he doesn't acknowledge or appreciate it, feel loved by it, do you choose not to do it?

Time is a monster unto itself, to me. Pain-time is creeping, slow, where the "forevers" come up and sit heavily on my chest. The joy-time is fast, flickering, flashes poignantly by. The old-time, full of old habits and reactivity, is like a dense fog around me, stealing days and seconds of connection (for in truth, seconds is what is real, minutes of it can fill love banks)...and inside my head, too, when I am not aware of the old routines in place again, in me.

How long? Maybe that's part of the process. Takes as long as today...where you practice being fully present in the right now, this minute...open to seeing yourself and your FWH as a clean slate, an unknown human, so that discovery is abundant?

I know it happens. I know two years from where you are felt like something I couldn't get to, wouldn't come, wouldn't be real...impossible. And as cliche as it may sound, it's not...it's one day at a time. For that is all we have, by design.

The not reading...well, I had to own my DH wasn't a reader. Never had been while we were married (he read a lot of self-help before we met). Own it? Yep. Wishing/striving, asking, begging him to share my passion were all the ways I disrespected him. He chose not to read.

POJA got us to reading aloud to one another...bits of interest here and there...Gottman's book. He did an exercise with me about the stage where you are now, called "Owning all your Villagers" from Bradshaw's book.

My part? To appreciate that this was him choosing...not him agreeing when he didn't agree...to do this. I had to find all the places I discounted and negated his hearty contributions to working on our marriage...because me doing them wasn't big...seemed tiny steps to me when I did them. Big for him. I respected his choices. They didn't say one darn thing about ME, SL...his choices were about him, for the marriage.

He never told me he'd do anything to make it up to me...he even warned me when he decided to commit to working on the marriage, that he was doing so for our youngest son, NOT for me...and that he knew he'd have to consider me down the road...he wasn't going to for a long time.

I appreciated his honesty...and yeah, I came here raving about those hurtful, awful words first...got thwacked (with love by JL and Pep) and that's how I got to today.

I owned my choice to stay...not at any cost...just for the two years we contracted to each other to work on it. And those two years went by and we forgot the deadline...for we fall in love again, and again during that time...off and on...mostly from learning to love ourselves for the first time.

LA

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