Well, working on your own stuff is half of the marriage. To me, they are both.

Reading helped me a lot...The Five Languages of Love was great for helping me know and meet DH's ENs and to understand my own. Reading The Verbally Abusive Relationship helped me further with identifying and eliminating LBs.

For me...great for my marriage.

Listen and repeat was as important...which takes focus, pure intent of truly knowing, not judging...and is a gift I gave myself...changed everything. Doing communication exercises helped tremendously with the whole P/A stuff for both of us.

Doesn't sound anal retentive to me at all...when we wake up to how reactive we are to our fear...setting goals helps us to know and hold our fear, and act from love, anyway.

LA

At work I printed out the boomerang relationship article to read later today. I did read it. When I got home I asked H if we could talk- we had a calm collected convo. I started out with telling him about you all helping ME and seeing a different perspective of myself and him, and I'm working on truly grasping that and working with it/changing it if needed. I also told him how I hadn't acknowledged all the improvements he is making in our R and that I was proud of him. I also told him I needed a real intimate R, not just SF but true intimacy.

I asked him questions on several different things including, MB, our R, how he felt about all this, if he wanted to participate or was he appeasing me. I LISTENED (BIG, no, HUGE deal for me) without interrupting him, without breaking the silence, without giving him answers with out DJ's (I think). Ok, maybe this was a DJ, 1 question I asked was if he wanted to meet my highest emotional needs. He of course said yes. I asked if he knew what there were. He said no, but by spending time with me and conversing he thought that would do it. I said you have the info., I'm confused as to why you won't use it. His response was huh?! I said I did the EN & LB why don't you use that as a starting point.

He wasn't very comfortable with this. He did the very typical him, I don't know, I didn't realize, I'm trying (if he says I'm trying one more time I swear I'm gonna yank his tonsils out), I'm not sure, yada yada yada. He also tried the turn the tables well if you had done this, or done that...I didn't bite! (I cannot tell you how PROUD of myself I was by not allowing myself to fall into that trap of oh it must be my fault!)

He did admit that he feels he's the one doing most of the changing. I told him- I've asked, and pleaded to know your pleasures and displeasures but I'm not a mind reader. He did ENQ which I've been meeting, but on LB according to him nothing applied to me.

I told him I had read an article on P/A and was wondering if he would like to read it to see if he thought that we might have a similar type problem. . I could tell he was getting frustrated so I stopped the conversation. He did read it. I went on about my business and left him alone

He hasn't commented on the article. I hope he'll really think about it and talk to me. I don't want to keep the dance going all by myself.

I know I still need work on me. And I will. For ME.

I'll see how the weekend plays out. Hopefully great!

MVG,

I saw your question on my "Musings" thread. I don't know if this would be the best place for the answer, but it's where I'm going to end up so here I am...

You asked about "fixing what's wrong."

From my perspective too many BSs involved in Plan A try to fix all the relationship issues simultaneously with trying to Plan A. This doesn't work because the things required for "recovery" are counterproductive when trying the bring about the end of an affair.

The only thing a BS can fix while in Plan A is things they have control over and that relate to themselves. And of course if you get to Plan B, you aren't working on the relationship at all, so again, all you can work on is yourself.

It is once recovery has been committed to by the WS and withdrawal from the affair has run it's course that the real work of rebuilding the relationship can start. But it can't become the only purpose in life or it is destined to failure. The things that are required to get to the bottom of entitlement issues, addictive tendencies and other things detrimental to the relationship do NOT build the balance in either marriage partner's Love Bank. In fact, digging into serious problems that may have been present for many years can drain away love units as fast as an angry outburst or disrespectful judgement.

So what I have found to work is to actually practice (by that I mean really do, not just run through the motions) the MB methods so that the marriage is strengthened. That is not to say that the affair or issues related either by cause or effect to the affair be ignored, only that the marriage must be built up and the way to do that is to NOT spend all of your time together discussing the trigger laden affair or deep problems that might take years to straighten out.

Especially in early recovery, the WS is really only marginally committed to actually restoring the marriage and building it into something better. If the cost of staying in the marriage begins to outweigh the benefits of staying in the marriage or it outweighs the fear of shame of being thought a failure by family and friends, which is a powerful motivator early on and is probably the number one reason exposure works so well, then the WS might just decide it isn't worth it and bail out.

So while in Plan A you only work on yourself to become better as a person and as a spouse, should the WS return and commit or for the day when you finally move on, either way it is to your benefit. You don't work on the relationship until the WS commits to rebuilding it and then you don't stop the process of marriage or life in order to fix every detail before moving forward.

My wife is into horses. I see a lot of people get a young horse or one that has been ignored for a long time and they think they are going to just throw a saddle on it and ride. Usually the horse has a few bad habits and the rider does as well and those things need to be fixed. The level of dedication to fixing those things varies from situation to situation, but some go on to be champions and others only reach the point of being able to ride alone on the trail without being in danger of being dragged through the bushes or trampled by a 900 pound two year old throwing a temper tantrum. The ones that are most happy and most successful in meeting THEIR goals for the relationship with their horse are those that can work on the problems while still having fun and riding when they get the chance. Some become so obsessed with "breaking" the will of the horse, that they spend all of their time doing fruitless ground work. The horse does not improve because they are still giving the wrong cues and the horse is still not able to determine intent. So no riding happens, no enjoyment is possible and no bond of trust between horse and rider is ever present.

It is those who ride, enjoy their time together and adapt to each other that have the strongest bond. Those who demand perfection before getting on the horse, spend their whole life with a lead rope in their hand and never get into the saddle.

Fixing what is wrong with the marriage is very important. But unless the marriage bond can be strengthened, there will be no marriage and therefore nothing to fix, since you will be fixing each other for your next spouse.

Mark

Mark,
AHHHHHHH! Now I see!!!! I was trying to Plan A and recover at the same time! That does take some pressure off me. Frustrating but at least I understand a little better.

EA has ended. NC since then. However, I was the one to end it....that has concerned me. He wouldn't do a NC letter as it was not a relationship to him. However he has maintained NC and so has OW.

He has agreed to MB but (there's always a but isn't it?!) he is P/A so doesn't put much effort into it. He has improved his responses to me just not as much as I'd like (I'm trying patience, really!)

I'm just not sure what I should do now (if anything) besides work on myself and my perceptions. I am trying to be very aware of when he's giving me the old p/a attitude and calmly not fall for that.

Your analogy of the horse is so right on for me. I am trying to enjoy the "good" times and just ride.

Do you ever just jump in at some point and say "hey this is what I'm seeing in my reactions to you and your reactions to me how are we going to deal with it?"

Thanks for your reply.

Way to go, mvg. You're getting great advice and I just want to encourage you to keep going.



This happend for us after MB and MC. We were (often still are) PA. Not a good combination but our MC is tougher than Dr. Harley. (That's what we needed and still do.) More details on my "Smiles and Trials 2" thread. Guess I should link it to my sig line, too.

Ace

MVG,

I think that you do have to just learn to bring things up and deal with them as needed. There are things that are important enough to draw a line in the sand and stick to it, but you have to pick those battles carefully and, really big one here...remain calm while discussing them. If you overload and start yelling, doing the AO and DJ thing, you will never educate him as to what you want him to know since he will stop listening and go on the defensive.

Don't sacrifice the marriage to work on the relationship. Decide what is most important to you and don't compromise on that, but don't make perfection a prerequisite for staying married.

I think EAs may be harder to solve than PAs in some cases because the WS doesn't see it as a problem. He may never see that what he had was an inappropriate relationship, but he must understand that it bothered you even hurt you and so it was WRONG and so can never happen again. He must learn how to prevent it from happening again and this can't just being sure to stop before it reaches a critical point. He has to learn how to avoid such things all together.

Back to the horse analogy for a moment...

If I'm trying to get my horse to back up on cue and she won't do it without a lot of frustration from both of us before it happens, I could spend all day working at trying to get her to back up. But if she isn't doing it, it might be that she is stubborn or maybe, it is because my cues are not exactly right.

So my choices are now for us to practice backing up until we both get it right, but I can also go on a trail ride and only spend part of the day working on the problem and at the end of the ride we both have gotten better at our part of the backing up equation but have also spent an enjoyable day together developing trust and enjoying the outdoors. When she gets brushed and put in her stall at the end of the day, she has learned, I have learned and we both have become more confident in our understanding of the problem. But we also have had a really good time together and our bond is stronger than it was. In addition, when I go back tomorrow to work on backing up, she will be more likely to come when I call her and cooperate more than if I spent the whole day trying to get her to back up while every other horse was off playing on the trail.

Once we get good enough at backing up, we can work on side stepping but again, I might want to spend as much time practicing that along the trail trying to open a gate while mounted rather than trying to force the issue before heading out for a ride.

If you want to live in your house while remodelling it, you have to go about it differently than if you are flipping a house for sale. You can't gut the whole house if you have to live there and must do one room at a time. Gutting the whole place is more efficient, but it only works if you aren't trying to live there at the same time and those who do that never end up living there. The house may be wonderful, but is empty when they are done.

Mark

Thanks Mark!

Mvg, can't tell you how similar I find the 2 of us. We even made the same mistake of trying to Plan A and recover at the same time!

Couldn't agree more with Mark. I think the horse and the house analogy brought out the point perfectly. I guess I am a perfectionist by nature and thus when the M is broken, I want to 'fix' it and fix it fast because I cannot stand the 'mess'. But unfortunately, I cannot 'gut' all the problems from my M without having some major arguments! I always thought I was one that can handle my emotions well and boy was I wrong. So I had to learn to deal with the pain and keep quiet, not showing it to my WH all the time to try and make him feel guilty. I had to learn to appreciate the little efforts that my WH put in and not ask for more.

Let's work together on this mvg, let's encourage each other to keep our strength up and keep our expectations low for the time being!

jcool sounds like a plan to me. I've made so many boo-boo's it's unreal! Other posters and especially LA kept telling me work on me, work on me...I thought well ok, but I can multi task! I didn't see the extra pressure I was adding to myself on top of the hurt, confusion...well you know what I mean. I hope I"ll keep Marks works in my head to enjoy the ride.

And encouragement is REALLY needed, so let's do that jcool!
(((thanks!)))

Hey mvg,

Just wanted to chime in on our similarities. I have been given the same advice by mimi, Bramblerose and others, and it does seem to be working. The analogies that Mark posted make a lot of sense, and do explain the process very well.

I was trying to Plan A for recovery, and it is plan doormat. It's good to watch your P's and Q's and take care of yourself, look at your own pile of poo and get it cleaned up. I've been doing a lot of reading, and taking care of me. It seems to be working. The pressure is OFF FWH to EXPLAIN it all and figure it all out right NOW. That will come with time; I just have to hang in there and really SEE the efforts that he is making.

Everyone kept saying, "well, he's home, and that says a lot!" I didn't see it, or get it. Now, I take time to think about the pickle he is in, all by himself, and recognize the uphill battle he has of his own. It is much more steep than that which I must traverse right now.

I say, just slow down, appreciate the little things, stop worrying over what you cannot control (your FWH), and take care of yourself.

I am still frustrated over the lack of physical affections from my FWH, because I feel miles apart from him, but I do what I can to bridge that gap.

When you need to ask a question of him, ask, but be mindful of the questions you are asking and how difficult they may be to answer, and quietly, calmly wait for the answer, and ACCEPT the answer. You may not always like the answer, in fact, I hazzard a guess that you won't like MOST answers right now.

Hang in there, and keep posting.

Hi mvg,

It took me a little while to catch up on your sitch, but we have some very interesting paralels. We have the same FOO for one thing. I grew up with an abusive step father....physically, emotionally, sexually abusive. My mother didn't protect me either. I was responsible for my younger siblings just like you were, and so I grew up needing to take charge and developed coping mechanisms that were great for survival....but not necessarily great for getting what I needed from my relationships. I was used to doing all the work because even as a child, I was the healthiest and most capable person in my world.....but it took me some time to realize that in my desire to help/fix....I was wearing myself out, stunting the emotional growth of those I was "helping", and turning myself into a resentful martyr whose standards nobody felt they could meet. Eek....how did that happen? How did my own capabilities defeat my desire to have my own needs met?

Oh wow....when did I become so co-dependent? parental? judgemental?

That big C-word was hard to swallow....co-dependency.

Read this and tell me if this isn't a little bit scary? It was for me:


Please understand....that none of this means HIS affair is your fault. That's his deal, his own maladaptive coping skills. But in order for your life to be more fulfilling....you'll have to unlearn some of your old ideas about how to achieve success. Co-dependency has to do with control....and that seems crazy because you probably don't have any desire to control anybody....but you're afraid to let them have control because you know they'll hurt you or themselves. It's not really about controlling other people as much as it's about controlling our own fear about being hurt or disappointed. You learned a long time ago that you couldn't trust anybody else....so you have to do everything. Since you can't get your needs met that way....the only real good you get out of that....is appreciation/recognition. So when you don't get THAT either....you feel bereft. Being needed becomes a need....and not a healthy one.

I have more to say....but not the time to do it today. In the meantime....do some research about overcoming co-dependency.

(((((((((((((mvg))))))))))))))

I still struggle with this....and probably will forever...but in terms of marital recovery after an affair....it's vitally important that you recognize and understand that for people like us....counter-intuitiveness is twice as hard. Letting go of the outcome (and control)....which is what real boundary setting is all about....is excruciatingly difficult with this background. Healthy boundaries are not like ultimata....do this or else I'll impose a consequence. Real boundaries are about acting in a way that protects YOU...rather than punishing HIM.

here's another (((((((((mvg))))))))

So, the answer to your question about whether you have to do all the work, is: Only as long as you DO all the work. Can you control your own anxiety long enough for him to do some of it?

Here's my advice for today....have more fun, BE more fun.

silentlucidity thanks!

I'm am trying REALLY hard. I think I have my answers already..cause I didn't follow the MB plan, but I have the majority of the anwsers regarding the EA.

I am watching my responses and questions. I'm practicing the p/a techniques. I'm learning NOT to take his responses so personally (HUGE for me). And I'm learning to enjoy the here and now with a little let's work on "us" thrown in. But very little. Hopefully just enough to peak interest.

And thanks for the support. THANK GOD for this site.

mvg....we were posting at the same time....I'm glad to hear you talking about "enjoying". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

star*fish LOL I saw that as soon as I posted.

Thanks! And YES I see myself VERY clearly unfortunately in those quotes. I'm trying. It's VERY hard.

It's also hard because I see so many p/a's in WH. So while I'm working on the "me" part, I'm still dealing with the p/a of him. UGH!!

ANY help,advice,suggestions are welcome. Ok, and maybe a swat on the head too when needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have to 'practice' daily to let go, and not let my life BE according to HIS mood, or his level of GIVING. I practice giving, noticing things, being appreciative. It's two fold. I'm in a marriage, and want to meet my H's needs, I do that by admiring what I see and hear, and also engaging in conversation, etc. *I* do this for me AND for PWC (FWH).

I have withheld affections and love from PWC for a long time. Lot's of anger to work through, even pre-A. I still harbor anger over him BLAMING me for mucking his life up with a kid. Hearing that more than once, it's tough to let go, but I'm doing it. He loves his son, and his life is changed for the better in many ways (his words), so I must accept that what he thought then, may not be what he thinks now, and let go of the pain/anger/fear.

What I do now, in terms of working on me, is to recognize the fear/anger, then to work through it slowly, learning to drop it if I hit a wall and come back to it later.

About co-dependency, I never recognized how walled off PWC was when we met. The walls were small enough that I could jump them before and join him, coax him from behind them; I was the ONLY one who could find him behind those walls, his savior if you will (yuck); now they are very high. His fear, and there is nothing I can do to rid him of those (learned that one the hard way), but I can help allay what has to do with me, by being a good wife. This is not about being a doormat, but being the kind of person that YOU want to be, not according to others' rules or declarations, but according to what's inside you, what you feel is right and good.

I think about what I admire in others, and why. If it's something I *wish* I had or could do, I strive to begin incorporating that. I work on the skills that I admire in ME, too.

I still have some controlling behaviors that will take a great deal of time to change, but I'm beginnning to, and that is what matters to me.

Since I started focusing more on myself, forcing fewer drawn out questioning sessions regarding our relationship and doing MY part in the M, the P/A stuff hasn't been my focus. It's still there, and was there pre-A. I don't ask a myriad of questions all at one time, either, as it can be overwhelming to anybody. Also, leave no ambiguity in your questions; ask for exactly what you want to answer to. If you leave it open to interpretation or a 'maybe' kind of question, you will just get fog babble. I wouldn't ask 'how do you feel?'; I would elaborate and be clear abuot what you are asking.


I seriously, just started to live MY life, not trying to control the outcome anymore, just trying to do MY best, so that the chance that the outcome will be good is higher. It's so very slow going, and I have no idea where we will end up, but I'm not going to let that deter me from fixing me, being a better person, letting the anger go, etc. That will only benefit me and those around me, in all of my relationships.

Silentlucidity thanks. It's very hard to change a lifetime way of thinking,acting and reacting. How did you learn to do this Silentlucidity , how did you identify what the issues were? Was it counseling, self diagnoise?

Shortly after Dday I started IC. She told me after 2 sessions I was co-dependent and manpulative (sp?). I'm wasn't too sure of either because I didn't/don't really grasp the whole idea totally. I do not think I'm manpulative at all...I go out of my way NOT to nag,ask more than a couple times to do something, so I'm not sure about the manpulative.

And I'm confused whats the difference between enabler and co-dependent? UGHHHHH

Hey mvg,


Saw where you asked this on the Cheerleader/Enabler/Controller/Conflict Avoider thread....so I changed the sub-title.

Thanks for asking....I've been wondering the same thing. Star's piece on co-dependency was helpful, but I, too have missing pieces to the puzzle. (Actually, at times, I feel like I just have missing pieces.....period! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> LOL)

Star - and other posters here.....please wander over to the Enabler thread I mentioned where mvg also asked this question.

I was going to let it slide, but SL posted yesterday that it was a helpful thread so maybe it still has more aspects to be kicked around.

Thanks,
Ace

It is a VERY helpful thread Acey!

Ps I just emailed you.

Question for you that have helped me so much...I'm thinking I need to change this thread name..doesn't seem to really fit any more.

I was thinking more of Help Me Learn & M Progress?

What say you?