mvg, I remember you posted those messages that was sent by the OW to your husband and there was something like "you were really good" said by the OW to your husband that might have indicated that they have done something together already.

His "coldness" not wanting to talk to you while driving and his lack of remorse while you're upset (and now the cell phone) might be some indication that he is already involved with this OW.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't communicate to him that you're suspicious because it will allert him to hide things more effectively.

I don't think I've posted to you before but reading your thread today got my attention.

MVG... what if... he just wants cells phones for the reason he said? Wouldn't he just go out on his own and get a cell phone if his motives were wrong? Why would he have you involved, especially if you're the one setting up the account-- with full access? Is there something I'm missing?

I don't think she has full access. His involving her might be just a way to save money and a way to hide the affair. Having an extra phone without her involvement will become very suspicious.

Sounds to me like they're doing this together. If that's the case, then she can just set it up where they BOTH have full access or just set it up under her name where she's the ONLY one with access to online records, passwords, etc.

Hi MVG,
Couple of things:

Are you sure that it is your gut telling you that he is contacting her?, or is it just the typical panic attack of the BS? I ask this because I don't recall any red flags that your H is still in contact with OW. I realize that he is procrastinating on several aspects of marriage building, but I had not been reading that as OW activity.

He wants the cell phones and is opting for the family plan where you share minutes and get one statement that will tell you incoming and outgoing phone calls with phone numbers. Sounds pretty open to your scrutiny. But you don't want the phones really because you don't feel that you and H need them as you have a pay as you go phone. So my question is--do you have joint agreement on buying them? and why are you buying them? I realize that it will give you the opportunity to make sure you have access, but he could go in and buy them and you could still make sure you have access. He procrastinates, so why have you agreed to set up this phone deal? Can he go set it up?
Lake

Gee, if it's the family plan and a two year commitment they can call each other for free and talk as long as they want. It also sounds like it is a commitment to at least two years together, at least in his thinking it might be.

I don't think it is OW related. If that was what he wanted he sounds smart enough to me to just get a hidden prepaid account and go with it.

What kind of questions are you having trouble getting answers to, MVG? I do work in the industry and might know the answer off the top of my head or know where to point you for that answer.

Is this a case of needing further POJA negotiating to arrive at a win-win solution? Is this a case of you just not wanting to deal with having a cell phone because of the financial burden if something happens to the family income? Is it just to stop him from having a phone that he MIGHT use to contact OW, though he'd surely be found out when the bill arrived?

From my POV, if he wanted to use the phone for further affair activity, he wouldn't be setting up a family talk account and giving you a phone too. It might be a way for him to check in with you to alleviate your fears and keep in touch while he is out to remain more connected. He might even be thinking that it is a small way for him to show his commitment to you and working on the marriage and using it to rebuild some of the trust. You can call him to see what he's up to as well.

Now if he had just showed up with a cell phone, that turned out to be a family talk account with two numbers and only one phone ever turned up, I'd be really suspicious...or if a bill for a phone magically appeared with no warning and he had never consulted you at all, it could be considered IB...

If the account is in his name, be sure he adds you as an authorized user with access to call records. If it is in your name, you get first shot at the bill every month and can keep track of his activity. Just doesn't sound like a big deal to me unless you have a specific reason for not having one of the da**ed things around all the time.

Normally, a post paid is much cheaper than prepaid unless the phone gets no use at all. Any carrier worth dealing with has at least 30 days to get out of the deal if it comes to that without an early ETF or even to exchange phones if you decide a different model is better for your use.

FWIW, the best phone is seldom the free phone, though price is not what makes a good phone good. Bells and whistles have no bearing on call quality, though network matters more than anything else in this regard. The top two are generally good in most places though in some places one is better than the other and vice versa. The lesser carriers are good in some locations but might be abysmal in others. There is one carrier who just lost their CEO recently that I think is going to go down further in quality before they get better. If it matters, I work for a dealer for number one.

To compare devices, check out www.phonescoop.com

JMO.

Mark

Are you sure that it is your gut telling you that he is contacting her?, or is it just the typical panic attack of the BS? I ask this because I don't recall any red flags that your H is still in contact with OW. I realize that he is procrastinating on several aspects of marriage building, but I had not been reading that as OW activity.
I don't know. Maybe it is panic attack Lake. I just don't know.

I don't think it is OW related. If that was what he wanted he sounds smart enough to me to just get a hidden prepaid account and go with it.
Mark, maybe it's not, maybe it's what you posted above his way of staying in contact with me.

I don't know what to think. It just hit me this morning...why is he so insistant? It Must be to talk to her again. I don't know. Maybe I'm just having a panic attack, maybe I'm reaching because I don't feel good. I hate this!

I think maybe the wisest thing to do right now is nothing. See when he brings it up again and maybe I'll feel better to just plain ask him.

I thank you all. Whether panic attack or truth I do appreciate your support.

I will. Thank you.

Ok, I'm calming down about the darn cell phones. I'm going back to a post I made yesterday.

Try doing it while he's not around. He may feel like you're "guilting" him into doing it by starting the task in his presence. My H would do the same thing. BTW, he did tell me a long time ago, that if I just gave him a written list of stuff to be done, he'd be more likely to do it.
Have you asked you H how he likes to be asked about chores? BringItOn

Wait and wait......yup....this is what I do....until I have all the things DONE he's asked me to do.I'm always behind on his list for me, so in the meantime, if something is dangerous, I'll just ask him to help me remove the risk.......usually it gets totally fixed...even if we have to hire someone.

In the past, I would have guilt-tripped him like you tried to do. (You didn't mean to, but ya did. ) No worries....just learn from it and next time...do it while he's not around like Bring suggested. Or ask him to help you do it together....I would even ask in a flirting manner...make it a silly game even. Ace

I can fix things, I like fixing things, I don't like waiting forever and a day when H says he'll fix it and never does. I'm not talking about he says he'll fix something and I expect it pronto...unless it dangerous of course. BUT MONTHS? And I have suggested we work/fix together. That still takes me NAGGING after weeks of waiting.

So if I just wait till he's not around and fix it myself how is that NOT going to be disrespectful to him? How is that NOT Independent Behavior?

I really truly didn't meant to guilt trip him. That was never a thought in my mind at the time. My thought was I want the door fixed so I'm going to do it. I can see since you pointed it out Ace that might make him feel guilty however it's not like I have even mentioned the door since the 2nd time it came lose. He said he was going to fix it, he didn't. It wasn't hours, or days, or weeks, several months had passed.

But it's not just the door or the greenhouse it's ANYTHING that I want. So how do I deal with this type of situation?
Sure I can do these things without him, I can do them when he's not here...but again I ask if he's agreed to these things and doesn't follow thru and I do them 'behind his back' how does that help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It feels like I'm tip toeing around him. I am truly confused.

uuuuwhoooooooooo I swear it's save to come back...

"I can fix things, I like fixing things, I don't like waiting forever and a day when H says he'll fix it and never does. I'm not talking about he says he'll fix something and I expect it pronto...unless it dangerous of course. BUT MONTHS? And I have suggested we work/fix together. That still takes me NAGGING after weeks of waiting.

So if I just wait till he's not around and fix it myself how is that NOT going to be disrespectful to him? How is that NOT Independent Behavior?

I really truly didn't meant to guilt trip him. That was never a thought in my mind at the time. My thought was I want the door fixed so I'm going to do it. I can see since you pointed it out Ace that might make him feel guilty however it's not like I have even mentioned the door since the 2nd time it came lose. He said he was going to fix it, he didn't. It wasn't hours, or days, or weeks, several months had passed.

But it's not just the door or the greenhouse it's ANYTHING"

I guess it could be independent behavior...I'm not sure how it would be classified. I also think of the poster who has in her signature line "I came here to change my H but ended up changing myself; my H changed because he wanted to."

That's where I'm trying to get to, not agonizing over something my H isn't doing, but also empowering myself to do the things that are important to ME (but not necessarily important to my H).

I may be way off base here.

I guess it could be independent behavior...I'm not sure how it would be classified. I also think of the poster who has in her signature line "I came here to change my H but ended up changing myself; my H changed because he wanted to." I may be way off base here.
BringItOn maybe that's my problem...I want to change for me BUT I ALSO want a better M. I'm not sure he's willing to do anything. I think he likes me spoon feeding him. I guess I'll just keep plugging along changing/improveing me and the chips will eventually fall where they will. I'm not feeling very hopeful right now.

Sorry if you've mentioned it but I've missed it, mvg, but are you guys in MC? If you haven't seen it today, check out my Smiles & Trials 2 thread about 'plugging along'. Our MC makes the difference for us, as you'll see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Ace

Ace, no MC. We tried IC but the counselor wasn't a good fit with WH so that's how we ended up here. When I found this site he thought it sounded like a better solution than a MC that didn't fit.

We live in a pretty rural area so not many MC around, well 2 counselors to be exact. There is a community counseling center however our daughter works for that corporation so that is a definate NO.

IF he would participate in MB I 'think' we'd be ok or at least BOTH realize that we need MC.

Funny/sad thing is I 'think' if I bring it up again he'll really be pi$$ed because then we definately wouldn't be able to get the cell phones! On top of that I don't 'think' he sees anything really wrong any more. For him it's a gone from his memory type thing. I'm meeting his EN's so apparently I'm over it.

Now I use "think" because those are my assumptions..and we all know what assumptions do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To keep my thoughts & posts togehter I copied my T/J Ace's Smiles & Trials.
From LA to Ace:

Oh LA what a simple explanation! I used to bet myself what my DH would do...so I could experience delight when he exceeded my DJ. A game, almost...just as a little girl, wishing hard for something (like a tether ball at Christmas) telling myself no way, ain't gonna happen, etc...so my delight IF I got it would skyrocket, and my disappointment, if I didn't get it, wouldn't drop me from the sky. This is where I'm working on myself because that's a perfect explanation of how I'm dealing with life. EWWW

Managing my emotions through my expectations, rather than being open. Reasonable for children...really tough on me as an adult...and I did that with my DH, instead of choosing not to know his response, and still appreciate, delight and connect with him. It is really tough...how did you do that?

Old patterns in me, Acey. Clean slates in our marriages...seeing with new eyes...not holding our partners nor ourselves to who we were, what we did, even in our expectations... Was it just YOU recognizing this or your H too?

All things are new again. I believe God sees me as new again, each day...his way. I'm aiming for that...and I see you new, Acey...wondering if you're experiencing being new, too. That's hard too. But working on it!

To know you are not lost at times, not wrong or doing something badly...is necessary to train your brain. Not stunted...not what you want now. Sure feels like being lost at times.

And you're sharing here, all the way, which to me, is glorious and needed and celebrated. Just like you. This is one of the most wonderful things to experience. Sharing! Caring! Especially from people that have been where you are now and care enough to expose themselves to help others.

La, do you think it's important for the spouse to 'see' the changes in yourself? I ask this because my WH doesn't see any changes in me. I feel the changes, not complete but work in progress. But with his not 'seeing' anything I wonder if I'm on the right track.

copied From Marks Musings:
Wishing For More and Missing The Miracle…
The way a wayward gets that way…

I place this here for lack of a better place to put it. It really is just more of my ramblings so I guess this is where it belongs.

In the book of Numbers the people of Israel have been led from Egypt, freed by Pharaoh following a series of miracles that finally caused him to relent and allow them to leave. Even after they were gone, he decided he was more powerful than any god, so he set out after them.

The Israeli camp was on the banks of a sea where they were trapped as the Egyptian army approached. God performed another miracle and parted the waters so the people could cross and then caused the water to come crashing down on the Egyptian army killing many. (For those who say it wasn’t the Red Sea but the “Sea of Reeds,” a shallow swampy marsh area NE of the Nile delta, consider the miraculous way the Egyptian army was drowned in so little water as the people of Israel with women, children and the old and infirm were able to pass without incident)

So the people received the Ten Commandments and all the Laws of God. As they traveled in the desert, God was daily supplying what they needed in order to survive. One of those needs was for food and for that purpose, God supplied for them manna. The Bible tells us that when the dew fell on the ground as the sun set, so did the manna. It looked like resin and the people gathered it in the morning six days per week and on the sixth, they gathered and prepared enough to last them the seventh day. But if they gathered two days worth on any other day, it would be spoiled and they would once again have to gather more.

But in chapter 11 of Numbers, some of the people are getting tired of just eating manna. They begin by comparing what they have (a miracle of God) with what they once had in Egypt (where they were slaves). In verse 4 of chapter 11 it says, the rabble among them began to crave other food, and again the Israelites started wailing and said, “If only we had meat to eat! We remember the fish we ate at no cost – also the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions and garlic. But now we have lost our appetite: we never see anything but manna!” (Numbers 11:4 – 6 NIV)

First a note on the word “rabble” as it is used here. The word applies to a group that was actually Egyptian or part Egyptian in origin. These would have been Egyptians who had married into an Israeli family or had been hired as a servant of a Jewish family. When the final plague had come on Egypt, these people would have been spared because they were living with the Jews and so they were ushered off as part of that group when the exodus began.

But some of them likely never felt that they fit in with the others around them. They had not fully bought into the God of Israel thing and so were not fully committed to the cause. Much like Dr Harley’s “Renter” from “Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders” these folks were only marginally associated with the group from the very beginning. While they might have marveled at the miracles as they happened and no doubt delighted in Pharaoh getting his comeuppance as it were, they never really intended to commit to the way of life that God was leading them too.

So they began to long for things they did not have. Some of these might have been things they once did have, but once starting down that road, they no longer made a distinction between what they really had back in Egypt and those things they thought they “could have had” if they had stayed. Whether reality or fantasy didn’t really matter, because they began to feel sorry for themselves and their own lot in life and so wanted to be someplace else and have something they didn’t have. It wasn’t really even about not having what they wanted to eat so much as it was about not wanting to be where they were. Egypt, though they were remembering it fondly, was after all a place of slavery, not one of great wealth and freedom. It was where the Pharaoh (king) owned everything of value and portioned it out as he wished. To those of use to him or who had done favors for him, he gave more and to the rest of the people he gave less. And to these foreign Jews in the land, he gave very little in deed.

So God gave them meat to eat. He gave it to them not for a day, or two or a week, but a whole month. Birds (quail?) came seemingly from nowhere to cover the ground. It says that “the least” of them collected 60 bushels of the suckers. God promised they would have meat until it came out their nostrils and they hated it, and so that is what they got.

But as they ate it, it made them sick and in fact many of them died as a result, and all because they wanted something they did not have and wished for a life that was not theirs, though what they did have and what was theirs was a miracle of the living God who had brought them there and had provided water from a rock, a stream in the middle of the dry desert and even food that was free for the taking, always enough and never too much so that it had to be carried from place to place. It arrived when they needed it in the place they were and so many missed the fact that it was really all they needed and sought other things they didn’t have instead.

Some who become wayward are like the rabble that never really felt they fit in and were never really committed to the relationship. They enjoyed the perks of being part of the marriage, the house and car and clothes, but had forgotten the part about “for better or for worse.” And eventually they begin to wish for things they do not have. There is always a bigger or newer car, a finer house, and nicer clothes. Not being content with what they have, they begin to seek other things that they don’t have.

As they begin to compare what they have to what they don’t have, they make an unfair comparison. For what they don’t have is not real, but merely a fantasy. It doesn’t really exist as they think of it or even as they remember it from before. It is not better by any means but only different.

But they continue to grumble and complain, longing for those things they lack. It’s only manna, the people shouted, when it was really life itself. And for the wayward who is about to destroy all that is real for a fantasy that doesn’t exist but as a phantom of their imaginings, the life they have is no match for what they desire. As they meet another person who feeds this fantasy they begin down a road from which few can return of their own accord.

“What I have is of no value,” they claim and the other person shouts “amen!” What I need is someone who takes my wishes into consideration, someone who doesn’t care if I get the housework (or yard work) done and desires me for whom I am. What I have now isn’t like that. All I have is this same old thing I’ve had for so long.

And as they feed off of each other’s complaints and grumbling, the spouse waiting at home is colored with broad strokes as someone who doesn’t understand, can’t provide what is desired and was a lost cause from the very beginning. The about to be betrayed spouse is not a provider of all that I have but the one preventing me from having what I want. Because they are standing in my way, they must be unworthy, at least less worthy and so I am justified further in my desires.

And like the people who complained that God had brought them into the desert to die and didn’t really care for what they wanted, the wayward cries out for satisfaction of their desires above all else. They no longer care that they have what they need or even a surplus, because it isn’t what they want. “I want more,” they cry, and the other person shouts “amen.”

And so often it isn’t until they get what they desire and find that it is as poison to them that they begin to understand that what they had was what God intended from the beginning and that it was all they required. Not until the fantasy shatters and the things they desire, that they once thought to be all that mattered start to make them sick do they see that what they thought they wanted wasn’t real after all, but only an illusion created by their own imagination and compared unfairly to the best that God could provide, if only they would have accepted it and not chased after things from far away that were never as they thought they were at all.

Just some thoughts… Mark

Mark you wrote this for Waywards and how they get that way. I thank you, I think this is a wonderful explanation. My questions rise from the BS point of view and how this applies to us.

Wishing for things we don't have...
Not being content with what we do have...
What I have is of no value...
Standing in the way...
What God intended..

As a BS I wish for things I don't have anymore, and maybe never did it, just never happened previsouly (EA). Trust, Hope, Security, Faith in WH.

Contentment: Is God asking me to accept only what WH is willing to do and not expect more? When I so much want a better M, the way I 'think' God intended.

No Value: BS are decieved by waywards,what we 'thought' had value (M vows) apparently does not for them. It's extremely hard to rediscover value after this deceit, not only of the M but of ourselves. I know it's not truly about us, but it sure feels like it.

Standing in the way: As a BS I want/need changes..trust restored, hope, security, love. My WH holds back on these. Gives crumbs not a whole meal of himself.

What God intended- Looking back for me, I see some problems we have in our M. I'm willing to correct what I'm capable of correcting, make better what I can, etc. My WH is not whole heartedly participating in recovery. He is content with forgetting and not seeing all the damage that needs repair. He thinks he's trying to repair by saying the ILY's, hugs, kisses. Not by giving all of himself just a small portion.

Much has been stated on this site about improving/changing/recognizing your (BS) part in the R, and you can't change your WH. I agree with that.

So what does God intend for BS's? What is he asking us to be content with, to value? Where is the BS's hope in this life?

MVG,

What question might I have an answer to?

Mark

Mvg,

What are your own priorities in recovery?

Transparency
Communication
UA time (RC time)
Grieving
Help with triggers
Intimacy
P/A behaviors

All of these have boundaries, with predetermined, progressive enforcements.

Not about him doing or not doing...you doing and not doing.

Order your life to what is most important within your marital recovery...and flip these over and see if you are also holding yourself to them in your personal recovery. See what order they are in for you.

LA



Mark,

Thank you for yet another fantastic post. Lots for me to ponder and appreciate.

LA

MVG,

That may seem like a strange question to you, but I ask because I think you have answered most of your own questions as you asked them.

As a BS you once had unlimited undeserved unwavering trust that your H would not do anything to hurt you. As LA might say...wasn't real. It was your expectation but not reality.

This is part of the devastation when a BS first finds out about an affair. We ask, "How could he/she do this to me?" But soon we are asking "How could I have been so naive?"

While we all wish things could return to what we remember, those things weren't real at all. We miss the blind trust we had. We miss the simple pleasure of not having to think about how an affair might happen in the future. We dream of days when we knew we were in love and that was all that mattered.

But NONE of that was reality. It was what we longed for, wished for and pretended we already had, but it wasn't there.

Which now puts the BS in a very bad and vulnerable situation. We are now the ones longing for what "might have been" and seeking something we thought we once had.

While it was the WS that chose to break the vows of exclusivity, the BS probably didn't do what was needed to guard those vows from attacks. We didn't protect our marriage because we didn't realize it could be attacked so easily. We believed that the vows were enough and now we find that they were not.

As for what God is asking of you...That is a tough one. I don't know if I have that answer, but I think you do. You just haven't put it all together yet.

If I have learned anything about God it is that I am not Him or even very much like Him. What I think of as perfect He considers trash. What I think is the right way to handle a problem He calls selfishness on my part.

Your husband doesn't share all of himself because he hasn't learned to do it or even that he needs to do it. As the BS you can say "Of course he should know," but he doesn't. He never did those things before and that was part of what led you to this place. How would he now just begin doing those things that were never a part of him before? The hard part is that YOU can't make him understand and change. You can help guide his thinking, praising him when he gets it right and telling (not chastising) him when he gets it wrong.

To him the way to survive is by keeping life from interfering with necessity. Like most men he has a "family" room, a "work" room, a "wife" room and a "friends" room. He only allows functions needed to operate in any given room to manifest themselves in that room. When he is with you, it might be all about you, but when he is at work, you are not allowed to be there in his mind. So now he has a "mistakes" room where he is burying (attempting to any way) the affair. In order for you to get in there, you can't kick down the door, but must be invited in. He must admit you into each aspect of his life. You must simply keep knocking on the doors in stages. He might let you into family and then friends and then work and eventually he might allow you into the room where he has tried to hide his failures.

The problem is that you can't make him get this and change everything he has ever done in life over night. He needs to understand that there is a problem and then agree that it is a problem before he can address the problem to your satisfaction. Unless he just accepts your telling him it's a problem and nods his head without really agreeing with you...(sort of the old "Yes Dear" kind of whiny sigh of the cartoons and sitcoms) you won't even get an acknowledgment of the problem from him very often.

Your last question is the easiest of all to answer. What God expects from us and what He wants us to have our hope in is HIM. He has a plan for us (Jer 29:11) that doesn't require us to understand why things happen to us that we don't want only that we trust in Him that He understands the why and how. Some day we might understand but perhaps then it won't really matter to us. Colossians 1:17 says that in Him all things are held together. The implication is that it is in Him that all things have their meaning or purpose and that in all things He has an active role. He isn't the glue that is put in place and is then forgotten. He is the one actively holding the entire universe together by His own will and effort.

Though we don't understand why these bad things have come our way, He has a plan that can turn them into something of value, not only to us (Jer 29:11) but also His greater plan for the world. Note this is NOT the same as saying He caused this pain to happen, only that He can use it to His glory and our benefit if we rely on Him and find our hope in Him and draw our strength from Him...(Psalm 40:1-5)

Mark