Though we don't understand why these bad things have come our way, He has a plan that can turn them into something of value, not only to us (Jer 29:11) but also His greater plan for the world. Note this is NOT the same as saying He caused this pain to happen, only that He can use it to His glory and our benefit if we rely on Him and find our hope in Him and draw our strength from Him...(Psalm 40:1-5)
I agree.

Thank you for your responses. You all make me think more deeply than I really care to at this moment, but I do and I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Sometimes it's the depths of thoughts that can make the rollercoaster ride seem smoother.

I just made that up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm not as good as Mark, am I.....<sigh> I'll just go to bed now.

Ace

Sometimes it's the depths of thoughts that can make the rollercoaster ride seem smoother.

I just made that up. I'm not as good as Mark, am I.....<sigh> I'll just go to bed now.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> thanks Acey!

Thanks for suggesting that the Enabling thread be a progress check for those of us dealing with overcoming enabling, controlling, CA, CD behaviors. I was going to let it slide, but you're right...there's alot more help available through our progress stories.

Acey

PS, I slept well but I still can't figure out what the heck my depth statement means.......<sigh> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

LOL

I haven't quite figured it out either! Smoother on a rollercoaster, hummmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I once owned a Rambler...

Now I am one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mark

ROTFL!!

mvg.....see how fun threads get started? (Except for the 20-90 Something thread...instead it started as an exclusive 50 Something Fun thread and has expanded.)

How ya doin' on the enabling issues? Saw that you posted a mini-success on the enabling thread....way to go, baby steps, one in front of the other.

Keep going, mvg. Great progress so far.

Ace

LOL well I don't know about great progress, there was LBing and DJing mixed right in there with the non-enabling! But not as severe as in the past. Which when I consider as crummy as I feel and emotions VERY tender as good.

Got a darn cold on top of the UTI/kidney thing, congested, can't sleep, RIF is apparently ASLEEP on night shift <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> no one around....a little creepy.

What are your own priorities in recovery?

Transparency
Communication
UA time (RC time)
Grieving
Help with triggers
Intimacy
P/A behaviors

All of these have boundaries, with predetermined, progressive enforcements.

Not about him doing or not doing...you doing and not doing.

Order your life to what is most important within your marital recovery...and flip these over and see if you are also holding yourself to them in your personal recovery. See what order they are in for you.

LA I have given this thought and realize I still have a ways to go on my own recovery. I feel I'm making progress, then opps down the hill I go. But I am starting to recognize when I'm in a downslide..usually once I land unfortunately.

You say all those priorities listed have boundaries with predetermined, progressive enforcements. I guess that's where I need some assistance. There are certain things I 'know' what my boundaries are and the enforcements ie, OW not friends of M/unacceptable. Still there are those priorities I'm not certain what the boundaries should look like, nor what type of enforcement. Communication is one. To me what I seek in communication is a 2 way dialoge. Hard to do that when the other person won't/doesn't participate. I KNOW I can't make them communicate, I accept that fact, so do I just communicate my part and walk away? Part of me feels that is more demanding, judemental, demeaning, and controlling then trying to find a way to have a 2 way dialoge.

Someone please hit me with the "I finally get it stick"!

mvg,

Even when you land on the downside...you land. You stop falling. There's a beauty in that, kiddo. Keep it in mind.

I think the slips are as essential as the climb, btw. Helps us to re-experience what we did before with new eyes...and sounds to me like you're really seeing the difference, choose to stop and re-orient.

Big kudos in there. I just know it. Probably can't hear them in your head because of all the phlegm.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Going bottom to top in your post...there is no one outside of you wielding your "finally get it stick"...when you are ready, you'll feel it...and it will be from ephiphanies inside you, about you and for you. There's no deadline or pass/fail. When your desire to change rises higher than to not change, you'll get it.

Because it's already inside of you, waiting.

You want to have two-way dialogues. You only control your half of them. You know that. Still you want them, you seek them. Your focus is on the outcome, then, isn't it? You won't feel successful, significant or whole unless you get that outcome?

I think this is understandable for the way you've lived your life up until now. Not realizing where you put your intent (to get a two-way dialogue) actually cut off that outcome. Sit back for a moment and relax your shoulders, sip your hot tea (snort the steam), and ponder...do you set yourself up to not get what you desire most through your choice of intent?

You asked do you share your part and then just walk away...and I didn't see another alternative packaged in there...like sharing your part and staying present. Two choices there...both have what is within your control...sharing your part. Until you do, you won't break your own pattern of speaking to get a response.

It's like the difference between taking and receiving. Not easy stuff to nail down and see clearly. Begins with your intent.

So part of the boundary around you is to add these two words into your thoughts and words...your beliefs. "Right now." When you speak, FWH may not choose to respond right then. That's reality. No nevers in it. FWH has the same opportunity to share as you do...comes again every moment. That's built-in...not you doing, 'k?

So each time you know and share...stay present or remove your presence, his opportunity remains.

You sharing actually removes the demand you've been experiencing prior to doing this...where you speak and he MUST answer, in order to fulfill your intent to have a two-way dialogue. How you speak of your stuff determines whether it is judgmental or demeaning. He can experience it that way, even when your words are not. That's where it crosses that intangible line...takes one to speak and one to perceive. All you can check is your half.

Adding "right now" into when you share, what you are feeling, thinking, believing, perceiving right now...opens up you to see him responding right now (not forever) or not. Are you open to hear if he shares? Listen and repeat if he makes that choice? Then that's a two-way dialogue...your half.

Takes time and trust building of sharing and letting go the response (or working to get one). Because your listener may be mapping (not hearing), expecting a trap of judgment, proof of being a fool, dodging what he perceives as controlling (only two answers...right or wrong...which can stop any answer from coming out at all).

Over time, that trust is built...she's really sharing her stuff with me...no traps, no throwing my words back in my face, no cleverness to control, to look like a victim of me, no judgment...which is reinforced by listen and repeat...striving first to understand, then be understood.

As you practice your sharing, you reveal your own inner thoughts without judging them right or wrong...just real or not. You add in the "right now" and you share even your assumptions "I fought hard against myself to just share my stuff...felt like my stuff was dangerous, so I had the DJ that I would be demanding, judgmental, demeaning and controlling if I shared without my goal set on finding a way to have a two-way dialogue."

There's no answer to that sharing. There's knowing and understanding. There's opportunity for resonation...and there's evidence you are owning your half of communication and intimacy. There's also room for sharing back...not in direct response to change what you're sharing...room to have your words repeated as heard, acknowledge. Lots of room respecting what only he controls.

In your ingredients for two-way conversations, are you saying you want to include questions for the opportunity for response? Your listener can respond, anyway. Questions can be perceived as controlling (most traps are laid with innocuous questions) because we are programmed to answer them when asked, and failures when we do not.

Asking "why" questions was something I had to eliminate in my own boundaries...understanding that they aren't what they appear to be...and a key to when my focus is more on getting information (sharing) out of my DH than on knowing the why answer in myself. Very sneaky.

These are the first steps, the getting back to basics...not forever..not how it will always be. Listen and repeat; O&H drive bys are the amends for years of having my focus all over someone else. They build into wonderful communication skills...one sharing at a time.

So that's one example of a healthy boundary to put around yourself...the "right now" add on. You identified a large one...NC with OW...what is your predetermined, progressive bondary enforcements around contact?

Is another boundary around yourself openness and honesty? Sharing your stuff is an ACT of O&H. Do you hold yourself to it? And when you don't, is your focus on your own boundary or his possible response?

Are you reading Tama's thread, btw, Getting To The Point? She put in succinct words what I've struggled to say for a long time. And I think of it now because of all the reasons you may believe sharing your own stuff isn't holding yourself to your boundary of O&H, but rather seeing it as demanding, judgmental, demeaning and controlling. Root causes in us...sure was for me.

Would you consider your desire is higher for two-way dialogue because how your FWH reflects you in words of conversation is how you get to see yourself? And the threat you may perceive in sharing your own stuff is because then you will not be a reflection...you'll be sharing your real self? Not bounced back or originating from your partner's opinion...you'll be sharing your own of yourself, right now?

LA

LA again alot to digest. And maybe I am making headway. I did have a conversation with my H not to belittle,judge or whatever..well sorta kinda, he did do something that was very thoughtless and in a CALM way I did tell him I didn't appreciate him doing that and expecting me to go along with it. So I don't know maybe I DJed all around. BUT I really didn't expect a response from him, it was to SHARE, not necessarily under the best circumstances but it was to share MY stuff. IF he had responded back would have been great but I truly didn't expect any response.

IF I making progress then I can only assume it's because I don't 'feel well' and my defenses are down and I was able to do it in a calm fashion and not really giving a hoot if he responded or not. I dunno.

I still have alot to digest from what you posted, 'right now' though I need to chew on it awhile. Again, Thank you.

La I read Tama's thread. Thank you for recommending it. Sad to see so many people that have the same issues, fear, guilt, worthlessness.

I'm still picking apart your earlier post. It sure would be nice to just have an outine/flowchart somewhere...answer yes or no and it points you to the next question and at the bottom is THE SOLUTION?????? Oh well..guess not.

Yesterday I thought about owning MY feelings so I planed on practicing my conversational skills last night. I'm not sure how I did. At first I thought good, then maybe progressed to not so good. Well before I got to my planned conversation..just stating how I felt, H hits me with a question I wasn't prepared for, and I'm not sure how well I handled that either. HELP?

Little history, Oct 20 was daughter's wedding, Oct 24 I started with UTI and possible kidney stones, still dealing with alot of pain this week, on top of him deciding that our GS (3) needed to come spend the night with us, then I caught a horrible cold by Thursday night. The whole GS coming to spend the night opened a can of worms with DD because we didn't want to get the infant twins at the same time. She said we're playing favorites and doesn't appreciate it. Now we've not had GC spend the night with us in MONTHS before the twins were born. Twins are now 4 months old. So he dealt with that because I wouldn't. However he made a deal ok GS this weekend, twins next weekend. So I'm feeling terrible, GS had left a few hours before, H had been out hunting off and on all day leaving me mostly with GS and he comes in and says....I know you're not feeling well but......stands there with this shi% eating grin on his face and says would you...before he could finish I said sarcastically sure...he finishes with a little sexual favor request. I'm thinking YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...he wasn't. I didn't. ugh ugh ugh

He seems to accept the no and the evening goes by. Well over the last couple of weeks I've been feeling him withdrawing some...going back to old ways of ignoring me. Right before going to bed I told him I really miss you not pulling me close and wrapping your arms around me at night. (I didn't say but thought, like you did right after dday).
His response was I 'thought' I was. I told him no and I missed it. He informed me I must be hallocenating because he just knew he was doing that. This set off a trigger because on DDay he informed me I was overreacting because my brain chemicals weren't right...yeah just because I'm on AD's?!

I never yelled, or raised my voice last night but I was hurt by his response.

How could I have handled this differently/better?

Ok confession along with above question. I have felt his withdrawal, it hurts me. I haven't changed my reactions to him but I am scared...look back last week over my total freak out on cellphones. So I stated my feelings on at least sleeping with him...I miss your touch. What outcome did I expect? I really didn't expect him to say anything. I 'thought' he'd either be aware of I missed his touch and try to remedy that, or ignore my feelings as he has in the past by 'not thinking' of me, his words not mine, and I know if something was up again. Ok maybe I should have put the question here...How could I have handled this differently/better?

So I'm feeling terrible, GS had left a few hours before, H had been out hunting off and on all day leaving me mostly with GS and he comes in and says....I know you're not feeling well but......stands there with this shi% eating grin on his face and says would you...before he could finish I said sarcastically sure...he finishes with a little sexual favor request. I'm thinking YOU"VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME...he wasn't. I didn't. ugh ugh ugh

Rereading this I wonder if this was a co-dependency test? Stupid me ACTUALLY for a split second thought of giving him what he wanted...then I thought I don't feel like it, I don't want to, and I can't believe he's asking.

Hummmm, I have to reflect why wouldn't he expect me to comply? I usually do because I'd rather not be happy than him. Revelation? I wonder. OR is it the GREAT advice I get here?! Maybe a bit of both, because without the advice of treating myself as I would a friend, being kind to myself...I wouldn't have recognized what I was really doing. Disrespecting myself.

THANK YOU, please just don't leave me hanging alone to long tho, cause I'm sure I STILL have plenty to learn.

You're moving so fast, mvg, that I can't even keep up with you. In fact, when I read your name, MOVING is the first word that came to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take your time with all these new concepts. You can't possibly digest and implement all of them at once. When I was in E-therapy with LA, I took one paragraph at a time.

Baby steps.

Eventually I started to toddle, then walk, and after what happened with DH's massage therapy session over the weekend, I felt like I was going in leaps and bounds.

But I digress. (I DJ'd big time ~ but caught myself ~ the next day.)

Constant forward progress....little by little......that's what will count in the long run.

Have you read Charlotte's thread yet? That woman is leaping and bounding with seemingly very little fear. BUT she is very cautious and open to learning as well as quick to acknowledge errors and change courses. We can all learn alot from her.

Keep it up mvg....you'll get it sooner if you don't overwhelm yourself in your zeal to process all these new eye-opening concepts.

Hope your cold is better and that you can get some sleep soon.

Ace

I know Ace baby steps, I think being sick (pneumonia) has my emotions on high alert, maybe for the good this time, recognizing hope & love. Cross my fingers.

I haven't read Charlotte's thread yet...but I hope to soon.

I did get sleep last night thankfully. Still up too early (5 ish) but hey fell asleep at 8 last night. At least sleeping straight thru the night I feel a little better.

When is vacation for you?
Thanks for checking in on me!

Mvg,

I'm seeing your illnesses as a signal to you...what you are not doing in your life. I see it as the cure coming in from the outside.

Say "Ouch" right now, out loud. Again. Louder. Say "No" calmly, directly. Look in the mirror, look into your own eyes. Repeat..."Ouch." "No."

Permit yourself to act from honesty. "No, that's not what I want right now." "Yes, that is what I want right now."

Your H made the arrangements for the weekend with GS. When he left to go hunting, GS is either picked up, H drops him off on his way...even though it isn't planned, 'k? Stop enabling H...stop getting in the way of his consequences...own YOURS.

Revoke your permission to agree to anything before asked. Commit to taking one full minute to answer...so you break your automatic yesses. Revoke your permission to speak sarcastically, it's abusive...and breaks down communication.

Take care of yourself and know that you are not love busting when you are honest and say, "I am looking out for my ill health right now. I'm not going to do the floors, no matter how awful they are. I'm my top priority because I'm half of my marriage."

I'm delighted you did listen to your H, accept his help...sorry you discounted it right away and robbed yourself of that great love deposit. I think it snuck in, anyway.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I am working on the honesty issue really hard. The whole GC issue is complicated,and even tho I didn't need the additional taking care of someone else it was a GREAT time for us. I AM very glad we kept him, it did my heart good.

Honestly, I don't think I discounted his offer to help. I should've recognized I needed to rest. It made my heart swell with love and hope that he did those chores for me. He wouldn't have before. I see this as big step forward...actually thinking of me, which he has said on more than one occassion he doesn't always do. (I would say always is a big stretch but that's just my opinion).

And I will practice the taking a minute to contemplate a question BEFORE answering before asked.

Ok, I finally made it thru your entire thread! Yeah! Wow...I feel like I just read my life. We have so many of the same fears and issues. I will take a while to digest all that I read..especially LA's stuff. It was extremely helpful. Now I feel like I have a better grasp of your situation. Thank you for passing on the wisdom on my thread. I appreciate it.

Hey lady!

I just wanted to drop in and say howdy. Hope you are feeling better. I've had my own issues to deal with lately. Had the flu this week, and I'm just now feeling better; my joints hurt so bad I felt like a REALLY old woman.

I keep up with your thread because you get some great advice pertinent to all those in recovery, especially PERSONAL recovery.

I had myself a mini-breakdown this weekend, and was really scared, but I waited until I was ready to post before acting, and now I have a better plan, a better view of reality. The 2x4's helped immensely.