WONDERFUL explanation! That is how I'm feeling, I'm in the race and he's at the snack counter! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you.

LC or anyone who wants to chime in....

LC you said things do get through to the WS's mind so I'm asking for you thoughts.

When (or do they)does a WS start taking the initative? My H has made alot of positive changes but even tho he agreed to MB he doesn't actively participate in learning more about it or even finishing the Q's. He agrees but unless I do the 'work' of bringing it to him he won't go looking on his own.

Is there normally a point the WS finally looks at their BS and sees they need to do the work too?

Am I/have I made a mistake in being the initator? And just how far do you go with that? At what point do you say ok it's up to you now?

I 'want' him to take the initative and at the same time don't want the positve to change because of frustration on his part that it's never going to be enough. So how do I convey that to him without frustrations with him or me?

I'm confused right now...I don't know what to do or what not to do.

mvg,



It may be very individual, some may never take the initiative. (I know not very reassuring)


I can very much relate to this, my DH is much the same. What I did was learn how to talk to him the right way. I tell him all the time how much I appreciate the work he has done on himself and for the positive changes he has made. I tell him because I am genuinely appreciative and want him to know I notice the changes.


I don't think you have made a mistake by being the initiator, now is the time to tell him what you would like him to do.

Are you the type of person who figures if you want something right you need to do it yourself?

The reason I ask is because I am. For me it was "easier" to just take care of it so it was done right. Now I accept whatever it is my DH does, even if it isn't quite to my standards. I'm referring to relationship stuff and other stuff, too. Take the time to stop and notice if your H is actually doing things, just not they way you would do it and you haven't noticed them.

A long time ago a read a really great book on how to communicate. I use a lot of the techniques in the book and it really has worked for us. It has given me the confidence to openly communicate with my DH. I use to say nothing and expect him to mind read what I wanted/needed and when he couldn't I would be mad at him for not doing what I expected. I stopped trying to make him read my mind.

The name of the book, if you are interested, is 'Communication Miracles for Couples" by Jonathan Robinson. There is some really great suggestion in the book. My DH hasn't read it, I never asked him to, but it would be really helpful if both of you would be willing to read it. My DH and I have talked about the communication ideas in the book which is why I never asked him to actually read it.

I just paged through it a little and think I may read it again as a refresher.

I learned it's not what you say, it's how you say it.


By telling him the right way.

Tell him in a nonconfrontational manner exactly what you said above.

It could go like something like this. "Honey, I really appreciate all the positive changes you have made and I am happy you are working so hard. I want you to know it isn't unnoticed. There is one thing I would I would like to have you do. Do you think it would be possible for you to initiate some things you would like to see happen in our relationship." Or something along those lines.

The short of it is you have to communicate to him what you want, he can't read your mind. The trick it to communicate the right way.

LC

If you feel resentful about initiating, then yes.

It's a common Renter-ism, actually. I used to do it a lot - even with much smaller things.

For instance, I would ask Patriot if he thought I looked pretty. He would say yes. Then I would be upset because I had to ask, so it didn't count.

See what a trap that is? If he says no, he loses. If he says yes, he STILL loses.

There was a much better way to get what I wanted and it required getting to know myself a little better - knowing what I liked, knowing what I didn't like, knowing what I was willing and not willing to do.

And then using a thoughtful request.

"I like it when you tell me I look pretty without my having to ask."

And then on my part, not hurting BOTH of us with my own DJ if he didn't by assuming that meant he didn't think I looked pretty (just an example).

How far you go with that depends on you.

Do you see ways that you might actually be robbing him of the opportunity to take the lead by doing it yourself?

Are you ready to hear and accept his "no" if he doesn't do what you request?

AMEN!!! Mrs. RIF is working very hard on this... Being apart actually helps because we don't get to see each other every day. We have to either say it over the phone or type it out in an e-mail or IM...

I'm going to try and find this book when I'm home for R&R because I know that I sure need to improve MY communications skills...

MVG - I tried to "force" Mrs. RIF to be as enthusiastic about rebuilding as I was... that didn't work. I used the same technique that LC gave you - Reinforce the positive things your H is doing and be specific with what you'd like to see.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thanks everyone for your input.

LC, I use to be the person to do everything so that it was done. Not that it was done my way just that it was done. I don't do that anymore. So that is good for me and him. I do feel I limited his actions by doing that.

Froz, I hope I'm not robbing him of his opportunity to lead, I'm afraid he won't ever do it. Maybe I"m expecting to much to soon, dd was 7/27/07.

RIF and LC I have been praising him on his accomplishments. How much I appreciate his changes. As forthright as I've been maybe I haven't been as clear as I should be. I will work on that.

Thank you all, good stuff to work with here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

mvg,

I'll let you in on a little secret. PWC is changing bit by bit right before my eyes. I think he's getting it. My honesty with him, over my frustration, without LB's or DJ's, was an absolute good thing. I had hit a major wall, and decided to drop his rope and begin scaling it, because that was what I wanted=RECOVERY. I'm not sure, but it seems like he's beginning to scale the wall himself.

Now, when he does something for me, I WANT to thank him. I find myself WANTING to give to him, and I do. I find myself WANTING to kiss him, hug him, comfort him. None of this means that it's ALL good. NOPE. We've got a long way to go. What it does mean is that *I* am learning how to communicate in a loving, respectful manner. I am learning to ask for what I want and need. PWC isn't hitting every mark right now, but he's hitting some really important ones.

PWC came home May 5th 2007. I don't think withdrawal really started to wane until recently, but not all WS's are the same; your situation just sounds so much like mine.

mvg,

Thank you for your thread. Every poster is inspiring to me.

LA

SL, you're so right. We often forget that in our impatience to see results like those on these forums.


I wish, SL. We only have to deal with a long distance EA. You'd think we'd be further along than this by now. (uhhhhhhh....well....the 4 D-Days are a bit of a challenge to the trust rebuilding, I guess.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />....) Did you see where DH lied just last week? But....chin up...forge ahead....upward and onward. ~~~>~~~>~~~> We're all in this together.


See what I mean????? mvg, if we can inspire LA, you know we're doing well. Thanks LA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Acey

Maybe so Ace! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA if you pop in, I started reading the boundaries book yesterday by Cloud & Townsend...did you have input? SOUNDS like you so much to me and is very comforting.

I read that post from LA this morning, and shivers went up my spine. What an inspiration she's been to others, and here she is saying we inspire her. Right ON!!!

Ace,

I hear ya! I keep up on your thread, and did read about the recent lie. Old habits, and behaviors die pretty hard, don't they?! I know I have to beat mine back with a broom.

I can honestly say that I have so much more compassion for PWC, and the abyss that he has to come out of. If it's anything like what I have been scaling, it's tough work. I try to remember that; that this is not EASY for either one of us, and that I am not here to TEACH him, but I could be a very good example and teammate.

Sitting in the MC session...when DH offered me a D and possession of everything, I must confess I gave it some thought. Good thing we were with MC....which is why I did not post about the challenge here first.

I decided that if I have to beat, I'd rather just put my broom down. I was that tired and frustrated and disappointed and baffled (MC's word) and exasperated.

But we move on.....one more experience and another notch on the "We can accomplish much" belt that may help me help someone else along the way.

Speaking of helping someone else....did I ever tell you 'thank you' for sliding over to the recovery forum and helping Mishes when I sent that plea to the Killer Bees thread last spring? You were the only one who responded.....but our help may be bearing some fruit. Gotta find her thread and bump it soon. Hope you're out there, Mishes. How's it going?

Ace

I was thinking of mishes last week, wondering what was a'happenin with her. Thanks for thinking about bumping her thread. I'll be sure to keep an eye out.

Just a note to anyone who checks...not much going on here. I'm still looking for my grateful heart, right now I only find a broken one.

I have alot going on in my head, as you can tell with my posts this week. For some reason I'm very conflicted. I want so badly to have my H open up to what's going on with him. And I so badly want him to ask me the same thing. Maybe a nice Friday night convo date is in order.

Is it normal to go from happy to everything looks positive, to (for no apparent reason) down in the dumps, blue, don't know what to believe out of WH if he's truthful or just appeasing? I need some EN's met! UGH. I need to feel safe in my heart.

I hear ya, mvg! This is the epiphany that I told you about some posts back. I finally got that I had to take care of myself, not looking to PWC to do it. It's squarely on his shoulders, his commitment to the M. I am not looking to him to fill my EN's now. If he wants to , that's great. Sometimes he does (not my most important EN's).

This is certainly not how I pictured our recovery. I had to get over that first; that I had some control over his participation and how he participated in our recovery. IT was an illusion. Even though I was told we would do it the MB way, and he would get IC, it all fell through, once he was home. His choice.

I have one of two choices, continue on, very slowly, in the recovery process, giving it two years, or divorce right now.

Now, having chosen to try and tough it out, and to give this all that I can, I have also chosen to do lots of self-care. I don't look to him to go out of his way anymore. Is that a sad statment? For many, yes, for me, it's reality. I have a FWH who will not bring himself to give to me openly, out of what seems like fear.

He said something to me a while ago that really drove his point home. HE's afraid of succeeding in our M, partly because he may not want the M anymore, and will wonder if he missed an opportunity for something better (this was a while ago, when the waywardness and fog were still pretty thick). Well, I told him then that nobody was holding him here. HE hasn't left, so I assume he wants recovery, and am going that route.

I don't think I've seen many cases where the BS is NOT stuck shouldering the burden of early recovery. How unfair it is, but how realistic it is. We are the ones who have to guide the way, and do so by EXAMPLE.

Do what you can to fill your WH's EN's, mvg. Don't EXPECT anything in return. Don't sacrifice, do what you actually want to do, out of love and respect. Spend time together, follow the MB principles. Don't hinge everything on him suddenly getting it.

Be honest with him; tell him that you will give what you can, but that your most important EN's going unmet is draining your LB, so you need to step back a little, take it easy.

This is a marathon (as sdguy would say), not a sprint.

Hi ladies:

I was reading this thread and finding a lot of similarities in our sitch. I was wondering if I could join the gang in this thread...

My Dday was July 06, NC was promised Aug.06, was broken once Oct.06 by some brief email contact at work. March 07 WH attempted contact again "just to see how she was doing". Got no response from OW. That's when WH started really to put effort in our recovery and so far we are still on the roller coaster, but it's getting better day by day. No NC letter. He refused at first and now since OW maintained NC better than WH, it may not be a good idea to do that after such a long time actually NC.

My top EMs are not met still. I need words and more affection from him. He knows but couldn't give much to me.
We do suggle every night and have SF regularly, but mostly I initiate. He seems to have big issue of fear of rejection or some other factors that prevent him from giving me what I need. When I am light hearted and fun and forgiving, he seems so happy and everything improves. But I can't keep up like that for too long. I explode because of frustration and lack of deep communication. He still wouldn't open up too much. He hates my explosions and he told me once that he felt like a victim and felt like abused during my rage outburst. And I asked him to leave many times during my outburst and he left once to stay in a hotel for one night because I couldn't stand him to be here but not do what he is supposed to do: holding me while I'm in pain and be very remorseful. Don't get me wrong, he is remorseful. His actions tells me that. But he doesn't tell him he is sorry. He tries still to find justifications to his A while we talk. Which is why I can't stand him to be in the house somtimes.

But he has changed so much in every aspect. He does so much more than before. He comes home earlier from work, helps me with kids, makes dinner for us every weekend, plans vacations for the whole family, looking to buy a vacation home with an ocean view, talk so softly to me, buy me presents, talks about our future a lot, takes care of me when I don't feel well, etc, etc. But still he doesn't show me a lot of affections which is what I need the most.

I feel that the first thing I need to fix is my angry outburst. I do try very hard, but I am trigger by his attitude (his unapologitic to the A whenever it's mentioned)
and when it sets off, I can't seem to be able to control myself at all. I will be LB all over and usually set back our recovery a lot.

I think I finally recognize my part of it in getting us stuck in the recovery process and what to fix it in me. I know my H feels guilty for his A, but he can't bring himself to think it's not because of his true love to the OW yet. Otherwise he couldn't face himself. He had been a very honest and honorable man and a very kind man also. He is stuck now in his thinking process, but I think he knows he wants his family. He tries very very hard nowadays to keep the family together. He has a lot of fear of being kicked out also. But his pride makes him be very defensive every time his A is brought up. And I can't stand his attitude on this one.

But we do feel love to each other, very much so. He seldom tells me that, he is a man without words. But I do feel it in him.

I am fresh out of another round of my anger outburst. We are going very slow now. And I finally feel that I should change my ways. I need to control myself more. I need to start communicate with him in ways that he won't feel attacked and need to defend himself. I need to improve myself first in a lot of areas and not care too much about what he does and what he thinks. And learn to look at his actions instead of words.

I just think that you ladies are so strong and I have so much to learn from you. And I want to share my story to tell you that there are so many twist and turns in recovery
and the most important thing is to continue self improvement and control AOs and LBs. I know the effect of that. Whever I control my AOs and LBs, I get a lot more of my EMs met and it's a very positive cycle. But whenver I do LB, no matter what's my justification of it, I set back our recovery process and I regret doing it.

SL and mvg, I just want to say that I really admire your effort of keeping up your side of the work in recovery and I know from my experience that no matter what stage you are in recovery, that's the utmost important thing. It's also self love. I'm coming to this realization just recently and I still have a long way to go to improve myself in this department. I am finding inspiration in you.

Thank you ladies, and keep posting and inspiring others...

Loving

Well, LovingAlong, welcome to our party!

It's raucous and crazed sometimes, but we try to keep eachother from going over the edge of insanity.

If you look at my most recent thread (probably buried back on page 3 or further--I should prolly update it.) you'll see that I had one WHOPPER of an AO and mutilated a defenseless shirt, and tried to LB him down to ashes. What a horrific night that was. We even talked about separating again. I was so distraught and done.

That was it. I had gotten to a place of doneness with the track I was on. It wasn't working. I came here. Vented and got some really good thwacks about the head and some great advice.

Since then, I have been taking much better care of myself; I take baths when I want, or read or post here for support, I let the anger go and the laughter in. There is no pressure on either one of us to meet needs that we are not prepared for. I believe in getting there slowly but surely, now.

Before this, I was TRYING and TRYING and PUSHING MYSELF. Then I would wonder why he wasn't responding in MY TIMEFRAME, and would get angry and focused on what he wasn't doing, and stuff the anger, because I knew it was counterproductive . What I didn't try was airing my grievances WHEN they happened, instead of letting the anger build, and finding ways to communicate better .

I FEEL closer to PWC now, regardless of how he feels toward me. Maybe it's facing my fears of rejection, little by little. I dunno. I only know that it's working better now than it ever has. PWC asks me about myself, my health (I have some major neck issues, and had pneumonia recently). He cooks and cleans and takes excellent care of his son, and the dogs. He complains very little about any of it; and sometimes seems more filled with joy over the love of his son.

It's just been BETTER. I've found a formula that is working. I do have needs that are much more important TO ME (as in affection and words of affirmation), that do go widely unmet, but I'm not a cup half empty kind of girl. I recognize the potential for hot sex, warm cuddles and words of love on the horizon. I've put the breaks on, slowed my roll, realizing that 2 years is a mighty long time and this won't happen overnight.

I know now, I truly know, that I am doing everything that *I* can to make this happen, and feel really proud for having come to this point.

If you ladies don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste this into my thread, too.

Lovingalong thank you for posting...post any time. I'm learning so much here, for me and about me, still struggling with his part in our R though.

Do what you can to fill your WH's EN's, mvg. Don't EXPECT anything in return. Don't sacrifice, do what you actually want to do, out of love and respect. Spend time together, follow the MB principles. Don't hinge everything on him suddenly getting it.

Be honest with him; tell him that you will give what you can, but that your most important EN's going unmet is draining your LB, so you need to step back a little, take it easy.

This is a marathon (as sdguy would say), not a sprint.

SL thank you and thank you for repeating it again. I think your saying 'be honest with him..' that's the part I've been struggling with. That is the part I am/was so unsure of. I wasn't sure if telling him how I felt was LBing or not and I don't want to LB. Having said that, I still NEED to tell him one more time, I don't think I can continue on this particular path if he doesn't step up. The changes he has made are nice, very nice, but not enough I NEED some meat & potatoes. I feel sad to even say that.

Thank you both for posting.

Being honest will NEVER hurt your M, not if done out of love and respect. Also, don't repeat yourself. If you've already told him what you need, then leave that for him. Work on you; make sure you are giving YOURSELF what you need.

You two are still miles apart inside, so just start bridging the gap with what you can. Being honest is all a part of intimacy. If he does something that you think "gee that was thoughtful", then immediately ALOUD, say, "That was thoughtful of you" and leave it at that.

Honesty is not only about talking over your pain or disappointment, but your love and faith and appreciation.

Thank you so much SL for your post. You are such a strong person...

After last weekend's AO, we are slowly getting back on track. We both said many hurtful things, but when I really think about it, he was actually telling his truth to me (although it hurt), and I was attacking and not reasonable.

Last night he had to work very late. It's one of a month thing in a bank (his monthly publication day) and he emailed me first telling me he would be late, then he called me when I got home, and he called me again when he was ready to leave the office. It was nice of him. I should have said thank you, but for some reason, I just can't. I still feel a little coldness in me. I need to get rid of that. But I left a peeled apple at our kichen counter for him before I went to bed, and today I found the apple at our bedroom table. He brought it upstairs to enjoy but forgot to eat it because he was too tired.

We didn't snuggle last night. The feelings are still raw, his feeling of being hurt by my words and my feeling of "why should I always have to say sorry to him first" kind of thing...But I feel the closeness in us also. When I asked how his publication went when he came to bed last night, he answered very softly and he looked like he was so content sleeping at home...And without even a word after that, I know we were close at heart at that moment...

My next assignement, being appreciative when he does nice things for me and kids...I have been horrible at that. Sometimes I say thank you in an email afterwards, but I have problem saying that while he is doing it.

I learned so much in this thread... and I do need to implement that.

mvg: about being honest. Yes, I have been trying to be honest and tell him my feelings. But there is a right way and there is a wrong way. I remember one time that I said to him " I feel really bad that I had to initiate SF most of the time" and right after that, that night he intitated.
But last weekend when I exploded, I talked in a different way when I brought out my hurt feelings and it didn't go well at all. I was in a combat mood and he was very defensive. My experience is that using I statement, be calm and tell the truth. It will not be a LB. If you do it other ways, it won't go well. I have done that so many times and I learned from it now. But still, I need so much more practice in communicating in a constructive way, any advice on how to do it will be greatly appreciated. Also how to contain the anger. Sometimes it's uncontainable for me and I wonder if there is something wrong with me sometimes.

LovingAlong