Is it the holidays or is there such a thing as BS blues?

All day yesterday I kept feeling sad. I tried counting my blessings which are many but I couldn't stay focused on them. Lots of memories floating around in my head. Our first christmas together...we were so happy, excited, fully of joy, happy to be together, the world was ours! Christmas was just going thru the ritual. Very disconnected.

I find myself analysing everything. Doubting what I think and feel. Not knowing what to do next.

How do you get thru this???? I don't LB according to WH. His only EN that he wanted improved was SF which now he's only very ocassionaly interested. Is it me with the SF? Does he not find me sexually attractive? Does he think of her or someone else then?

According to him there is NOTHING I can do to improve our relationship everything I do is fine. So what do I do? I feel very lost and alone.

I don't feel he's being O&H. I am NOT perfect! I do LB! So I don't get it. Has he checked out for the most part emotionally? Am I the old comfortable shoes he just doesn't want to get rid of? OR is he waiting for me to have the guts to leave and he won't have to make that decision, it will be all me?

Will leaving give me any peace? Will it make things easier to deal with NOT seeing him every day? Will it be easier for HIM to not deal with me every day? Do I give up everything here move back home to find out?

After dday he told me, "you wanted to marry Ward Cleaver, but you married Ozzie Osborne". Not a great comparison but the more I've thought about it he might be right. I do want a MAN that loves me, wants to take care of me, put my needs and desires first, make a safe home.

I'm just really blue and sad yesterday and today. I'm mad too...damn him for having an EA. Damn me for finding all the messages and having them play over and over. Damn me for so believing in a husband that you trust. Damn him for not fighting harder for ME now.

Well, I lost my last post, crapola!

mvg, YOU have to be O&H, stop stuffing. This does nobody any good. YOu think and feel how you think and feel. Don't doubt that you will wake up tomorrow, and still feel the same and think the same--UNLESS, you change something.

Stop questioning IN YOUR HEAD, and start questioning him, even if you have to send it in a letter, get it out, without LB or anger, but coming from the place that you are exhibiting here, from sadness.

If you are asking if you will find peace in leaving, then I doubt you will. When you are done, you will know it, for you will have tried all that you have within you to do.

After Dday, he told you what any fogged out zombie would to essuage his guilt, by making you feel like you are crazy, like you don't remember things as they were. Please don't allow someone else to change your memories and blur your reality. You know who you married, so stop questioning that. That man is changed, for sure, but don't allow him to rewrite YOUR memory.

Just be honest with him, stop stuffing, and get on with your day. You must speak your mind in order for him to know. Walk into the fear and talk to him. You may not hear what you want, but you will hear the truth, then you can make a better plan for your sitch.

Can you call JenniferC or SteveH?

SL thank you...I did face my fear and we talked...alot, and honestly. I feel better, he looked dumbfounded and surprised. He says he had no idea I was feeling so confused or sad or thinking about leaving. He thought everything was ok. I hope he realizes now he can't assume he knows how I feel or what I think. We'll see.

We both agreed NOT to stuff our feelings and to deal with things as they occur.

Thank you. I hope your Christmas was happier than what I felt.

I have seen SMALL changes in PWC since I talked to him about my needs. I'm not expecting some miraculous turnaround, but I AM expecting some participation in meeting these needs. He's doing it. Still not touching me, but sitting closer, more relaxed, letting our feet touch, arms touch (he would pull away before0.

Part of the change is me and my demeanor. I'm done with the eggshells. I've swept them up and glide around swiftly now. He can do what he chooses; I choose to chug along with recovery, especially my recovery. ME being stronger can only mean good things, for me and my marriage.

It's much easier to think without all that emotion swirling around. Since the A's, I have some pretty deep emotional wells to deal with; like I said, they could have sprung from the depths of pain that you encounter upon Dday and the ensuing fight to save and recover your M. I dunno, but something changed in me after that pain.

I'm also able to feel even HAPPIER since Dday, but only after I applied myself to personal recovery. Now, I have some really great days, that aren't really that remarkable, but I FEEL great, and it lasts for a while, not like some quick fix (HIGH), but like a permanent thing. I only feel UNHAPPY when I let the anger and sadness consume me, and when I don't SPEAK UP.

And as for this...



You have to ask yourself, why WOULDN'T he think everything was okay, since you weren't telling him it wasn't. None of us are mind readers, mvg. This, I believe is where true intimacy lies, in TALKING to each other about our biggest fears, and revealing guarded things about ourselves to one another.

My Christmas was good. My son was so happy about Santa visiting the house. On Christmas Eve, after the little tyke went to bed, we wrapped his presents. It was fun, we were joking and talking, laughing and enjoying the moment. Christmas day was fine. My family came over and we spent the day together. My sister (a colorist/stylist) cut my hair off (because I wanted to) in a very short style. She's going to color it tomorrow; probably a caramel color with chunky highlights.

mvg, what I realized in all of this mess that we have been living, is that I have to be able to say that I pulled my weight, did my part. If I'm withholding important information about what inner turmoil I'm experiencing, then I'm not doing my part to get that intimacy I so desperately want in my marriage. I won't end my M until I KNOW that I have nothing left to give or contribute (or no more want to do it), AND PWC is not engaged.

You'll probably feel better just by virtue of speaking up and being honest. Practice what MB preaches, regardless of what you FWH does.

The stuff that Orchid posted is soooo valuable. I read a lot of it last night (couldn't sleep).

Hi everybody, mvg, SL, LA, etc...
Hope you all had a great Christmas.
I'm just back home from Killington, VT. The 6 night ski trip was good. The whole family went to blue trail for the first time, yeah!! Considering we started skiing only from last year, it's a great achievement, right??
I will definitely read more and write a bit about my experience tomorrow. For now, ladies, have a great night.

Snowy ( LA, I love the nickname you gave me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Hey Snowy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Glad you had such a good time sking. You'll have to post more details on your trip.

SL, EVERYTHING in your last post is right on the money! I didn't realize how much I was stuffing my feelings. Letting him know WHERE I was emotionally for ME was very good, not so sure about him, but I think it was good for him to hear. I hope NOW we can begin this recovery together.

And I hope when I have my doubts again, you will be here to thunk me on the head!!!!

I'm so glad that you are feeling better about your situation, and pray that will grow to a better M for you and your H!

How are you holding up with your upcoming surgery?

mvg, how is your H's reaction to that you're actually thinking about leaving? Are are his plans now to make it work?

I'm pretty fearful of the whole surgery thing, of everything involved, of which my top fears are healing time, mobility, and the effect this will have on our already rocky recovery.

I, personally, do not believe that my M is IN recovery. I think we're living together, I'm doing lots of personal recovery, and we'll see. It's really now up to PWC to 'get it'.

I don't think he wants to end our relationship or marriage, according to his actions, but I can't know what he wants if he won't speak up.

I'm feeling the stress of a lot of things.

Are you guys in MC, SL? (Sorry if I've missed it when/if you've said.) If it were not for our MC, I think we'd be in the same boat you guys are in. He (MC) did not remember much about MB after reading HNHN years ago, but he is reinforcing everything we're learning. MC said he took an afternoon and read most of the MB web site (after we started seeing him and I mentioned these forums) He is in agreement for the most part...but he's tougher, in fact....said that DH should not even turn on a computer without me or someone I trust looking over his shoulder ...now and forever.

After this last session of lies (3 weeks ago) and MC's subsequent harsh rebuke, FWH finally 'gets it'....I think....I hope.....I pray. He's still here and we are increasing our intimacy of communication. Having our MC to 'fall back on' boosts my confidence, too. When MC was out of the country and we had that near meltdown at the first of our vacation, I was in panic mode. DH started crying in frustration....and then I was OK. Go figure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I guess I set that (working with a tough MC) as one of my early boundaries but it was actually DH's idea to see this one instead of the previous one who he didn't respect. Now it seems like DH is living in peace with himself....he says he likes feeling clean. But, old habits do die slowly...for both of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

DH says that my personal recovery has helped him see the new value of our relationship and marriage. Don't discount it, SL.....regardless what happens with PWC, you'll be further down the road because of personal improvements. (I'm trying to develop the same mindset and DH is noticing more and more.)

Ace

mvg:

Good for you that you talked to your H about your feelings. I need to learn from you for being open and honest with H. I still stuff a whole lot and when I talk, I can't really stay calm and loving, it's just so hard, isn't it? Sometimes I still can't believe what H did...and fantasize about leaving him and let him taste what life feels like without me, hehe, that would be fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...But for some reason, I just can't leave...

SL, I know how stressful life could be. I remember when H was depressed and in withdrawal, my whole life was a mess. Even after he turned around in a way, that was when he decided to recommit to M and make our life together better...he still doesn't want to find out why he had an A and even hasn't really apologized to me for how he hurt me yet...So he still hasn't got it in a lot of sense and I still feel unsafe a lot of times. Now I feel that personal recovery is what I need to do, just like you. And no matter what phase you are in recovery of the M, personal recovery is very important. I know probably we are further along in M recovery since H started to put in a lot of effort, but with that, also comes a lot of trying to do deeper into the whys and how to overcome the triggers and how to convince oneself that staying is the right choice and not to hit and kick him a lot of times when rage just hit you like a rolling rock...I don't know if I am making sense here, I'm just trying to say that by doing personal recovery, you prepare for all things that could happen and you become stronger for any situation. That's what I am trying to do and I have a lot to learn here.

Ace: I hope now you can post to me since I'm not LA anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I respect LA so much and I did feel ackward with the same name...

Below is my detailed update about my trip:

I did get what I was asking for: a new ring for Christmas !!
Inside the ring, FWH put: Love H ( H is his real initial). It's the first time he said the word without me prompting him and I'm truly glad he did.
Our wedding ring is a big trigger for me since OW took his ring off the night they spent in the hotel. I bought him a new ring right after he came back home after spending two days in that hotel with OW. Since then my ring sometimes trigger bad feelings and I'm glad he got me a new one finally. It would be nicer if he did it without me asking, but I learned to be happy with what I got.

The whole trip was very nice. We spent a lot of time with our friends also. H was nice most of the time, attentive and caring. One time we ran into a stressful situation and we argued for about 10 minutes in the car but we recognized that we fell into old patterns and stopped that. No real damage was done.

H told me again that he felt that he didn't have much to talk about with those two families we went together. I noticed that he felt inadequate comparing to those two husbands since he both have a lot of time to spend with kids helping kids with their homeworks etc and they talked a lot about that and H felt inadequate. I know H has been trying so hard to improve in this department, but his work schedule is much more demanding than those two friends and maybe I should appreciate more about what he is doing now with kids and give him more confidence in this??

H also talked about wanting to have some quiet time to himself reading his technical journals. I have mixed feelings about this, but I think I do understand. He has been spending all his time with me and kids and he must feel a little overwhelmed. I told him I did understand.

And for the first time, he didn't take his blackberry with him. He used his blackberry for work and also for his A ( exchanging txt messages with OW throughout the day) and he knew I hated it and I asked him not to take it during our last vacation also but he said he needed it for work. This time I didn't ask, but he remembered and he didn't take it...He is being very considerate. I haven't thanked him for that yet. But now I feel like that I shouldn't make it a big deal by thanking him. So I will leave it as it. I will be really nice if he can keep it up for our upcoming vacations.

Also for the first time in more than a year, I feel like I can leave his blackberry cell phone bills unchecked. I always check his calls every months, now this month I feel so safe that I don't think I need to check. When the bill comes in the mail, he saw it but didn't take it...He was waiting for me to check it first...Now I think I can give the mail to him unopened tonight...I hope he will feel trusted and appreciate that...We will see.

There were several moments I felt the holiday BS blues as mvg put it. I just felt sad and fantasized about leaving him and leaving all this baggage behind me. I became quiet before we slept. H seemed to noticed and he initiated some nice feet touches ( pretty rare from him still to initiate any affection ). I didn't respond and we both withdrew a bit. But after a while I got out of my own bad mood and we were close again. I was thinking how I should actually tell him how I felt next time to avoid him playing the guessing game. But I was afraid it would turn into something bad to spoil everything. I am very bad at talking about negative feelings. I communicate with him via email sometimes more successfully than face to face. I know I need to face my fear of talking those topics and learn some calming techniques to help me when emotions are too high.

Thank you SL for saying that we shouldn't stuff our feelings and we should talk from a place of love. I noticed that whenever I tried to talk from a place of love, I get very good results. Both of us would be calmer and it won't escalate into something bad. I will need more practice, but I will remember that...

OK, I need to drive to work now. Thanks for listening to my rambling...It's great that we can share this way...I have nobody to talk to about this stuff in real world...

Snow

Hey Ace! I'm going to respond to you on my thread, so as to not TJ too much here, AND add recent information; I just spoke to PWC.

StillSame, My H was SURPRISED! He 'thought' things were so much better. His plan is still somewhat vague...I'm going to try again to get him to read 5 love language book and HNHN. He is having a hard time with meeting my words of affirmation, he even admitted he's not sure why. I told him this is a VERY important EN and effort has to be made to meet it. We still have some talking to do about meeting both of our needs as I think when he filled out the ENQ he was still foggy. I just pray that he is serious about working on this together and not just thinking he can 'wing it'.

Hi mvg,

Expect him to wing it for two reasons:

1. You cannot control him.

2. Old habits die slowly.

What you CAN CONTROL is how you respond (not react) when he does 'wing it'.

For me, as I focused on self improvement, I gradually created a motivation for WH to WANT to WORK WITH me. He is making such a terrific effort that I think I'll try to revive that thread that Mopey started to ask "What does real recovery look like so you know if your WH is working towards being an (F)WH? (or something like that). It circulated when I was off making movies this summer and I read it once but lost track of it by the time I returned.

Every couple is different, though, mvg. What worked for me MIGHT work for you but only you and your H can really know. Our tough MC pushes the envelope with both of us.

Glad you had the chat and that you made it safe for him to be surprised without condemnation. That's the beginning of the 'safety' my WH needed to feel when I registered and began learning all about these MB concepts nearly a year ago.

Be patient, work on things you can control, vent to us when you can't. Simple sounding, I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Also, it's helpful to get a vision of what your RECOVERED status will look like. This will give you a focus when you get impatient and begin to lose hope.

Also, have you made a list (and added to it regularly) of the good things in all aspects of your life? This often enlightens one to the positive things that may have been taken forgranted, overshadowing progress that needs to be acknowledged. That might help you keep focused, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. Thanks for your reply on your thread, SL. (Going there next.)

Ace = So NOT a newbie...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mark

Gaarrsshhh, Mark...you make me blush. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />*

Does this mean I'm growing up to be like you? Oh, yeah, I said I wanted to grow up to be like Pep. Heck....I just wanna grow up....PERIOD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, thanks, Mark <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ....and mvg, sorry for the TJ but he started it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ace

* Ya think RIF will notice 4 blushy faces instead of 3 or 5?

DITTO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .... and U 2, Mark!

I know I haven't said it much but I appreciate u guys posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Please keep up the good work.

Have a nice day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hey TJ's are fine by me!

Ace thanks for your points above.
Also, it's helpful to get a vision of what your RECOVERED status will look like. This will give you a focus when you get impatient and begin to lose hope.

I think this is where I start to have trouble. I'm not sure what recovery looks like....not the fantasy recovery, the REAL one, ya know?!

My biggest issue right now is WHY he won't meet my most important EN's. He says he doesn't know. So I'm befuddled and a bit hurt. He can profess his love till dooms day but it doesn't help me understand why he can't/won't meet my most important EN's. There has to be a reason, doesn't it? If I didn't put forth effort to meet his our R would suffer so I don't get his reluctance/down right not happening approach.

Am I rushing things? Is this to much to expect at almost 5 months? I dunno.

I'm going to copy a post I wrote to LG this morning, hopefully I can find some help and advice here too. Sorry I don't have any positive thoughts this morning. We are still in the roller coaster ride...

LG:
Thank you so much for posting to me...You always bring a lot of compassion and wisdom with your words.
Yes, I talked about the answers I need, but he wouldn't give them to me at this point. It's very disappointing to me and I'm trying to live with it for now and see what happens.
Just this morning, I had a dream and in the dream I asked him what hotel he stayed with OW and he told me although with a lot of hesitation. I felt a sense of relief and woke up. After I woke up, I told H about the dream and asked the question. He
was loving with I told him I had a dream and instantly withdrew when I asked the question. He told me he didn't remmeber, which was a lie. He became distant and angry also after I asked. Then I asked him to hold me because I felt pain. He did, but very reluctantly. Then it suddenly hit me that his hands didn't give me much comfort at all since he still kept a lot of secrets with OW and I felt that his hands were dirty. I don't know why, but I was angry at that moment and told him so. We both got angry and withdrew.
He is having a cold now and doesn't feel good and I have been trying to take care of him, but I just don't feel much love at this point. I still fantasize about leaving.
I am also having my time of the month that my mood swings down and it's hard to control that.
I do know that I don't want to throw our M out of the window at this point and neither does he. But we don't seem to be able to get an agreement on this important issue.
He told me that the only way he could heal was to bury the whole thing and for me to never mention about it. And I told him I couldn't heal this way. And he told me repeatedly that he never forced anybody to do anything and nobody can force him to do anything...meaning that he won't talk about things that he doesn't want to talk about...
I get that. The only thing I can control is me. And I'm thinking if I can live with his man with his kind of mindset even if he provides great financial security, tries to improve his involvements with kids, buys me presents, holds me when I ask him or when I tell him I'm in pain, doesn't initiate SF but enjoys it when I initiate, does NC with OW, went through a painful withdrawal from OW, what else did he or does he do? Oh, he also makes dinner for us every weekend and says that's the best time he can imagine, cares about me when I'm sick, does whatever I ask for him if it's in his comfort zone, seems to be fearful of me sometimes although I truly love him and is loving most of the time...
This time unlike most other times, I stayed calm. I removed his hands from my tummy because they didn't bring comfort and got up to write a post in here, instead of getting angry
and engage in an argument with him.
I think I'm getting stronger and he noticed that. He is now trying to engage in conversations and take care of the kids while I just feel cold towards him. I told him when he told lies to me his whole person changes in my mind, which is true.
I don't know how to go from here. I know I don't want to disrail this recovery at this time, but seem to stuck at this point.

I still remember your way of writing them down and let him pick and answer and feel that's the best way in our situation. I talked to him, he is not receptive. He said he wouldn't be forced to do anything.

Don't get me wrong. I don't talk about it all the time. This is the first time in a whole month that I ever mention anything related to his A. I have been trying to look forward and things had been getting very well between us, we felt almost normal, like it never happened, just more in love with each other than before. But there are things that's blocking our progress and his refusal to answer questions is a big one. He seems not willing or not able to do it. And it's draining my love bank pretty fast.

Any advice how to go from here? I do still love him and I feel his love to me also...Help!

Snow (LovingAlong)

MVG - Happy New Years!!!!

Snow,

Tell him that you need the answers to these questions. Maybe type or write out a list of them for him to read and tell him that whenever he is comfortable to bring one to your attention and answer it. I know that is hard, but I am still finding answers to my questions simply because my H decides to answer them on his own time. It is frustrating and I am not a patient person, but he will have to do it when he is comfortable. You will simply have to wait. Others may have better advice, but that is what worked for my H.

p.s. I am also wondering what the definition of complete and real recovery is.