Happy New Year everyone!

Snow, after reading your post a couple of times, I have to say you are very patient! I'm not sure what the vets might advise you on 'needing to know'. I know that I couldn't/wouldn't survive without answers, most of which I got fairly quickly...a couple of months.

Have you read Joseph's letter? It's a letter to WS about the BS needing to know. Maybe he would respond/understand after reading that?

My WH wants/wanted to let it go also, no need to revisit the EA, it's over done, lets move on. Heck I want to do the same thing when I've messed up, but ya know rarely do I think that's possible. IMO that's just crazy especially with A's. I will warn you however be VERY careful of what information you need vs. want. You CANNOT unring the bell. Knowing details can cause more troubles for you in regards to reliving events, confusion, more hurt & pain.

So what do you NEED to know from WH?

I haven't posted much here lately as things have been going fairly well. I've been reading alot of older posts which have been so helpful. Thanks to Orchid and Mimi for bringing some of those up to active threads!

I 'might' even consider myself on the finally undertanding "MB" better. I say might because today is good day, tomorrow might not be! My emotions still have a tendancy to be on the rollercoaster. I'm trying very hard to keep prespective and count my blessings.

It really hit me yesterday MB is NEVER finished, it's a forever process. I really must still be in a fog somewhat, seems that I should have known that from the beginning! DUH!

It also came to mind that as much as I want guarantees in my M since the EA, there is no guarantee. However there NEVER WAS! I just innocently thought that something like this would never happen. Another DUH!

I'm pulling out my books again, going to re-read 5 love languages and HNHN. I'm praying WH will decide to read them also.

I pray that this bright new year will be insightful for me and that we can build a true mature intimate M.

More later as my DUH moments occur! I'm on a roll with those right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi mvg, SL, Ace and everybody here:
Happy New Year to you all!

mvg: I'm so glad you had a good holiday and you sounded like you were in a good place now, speaking your truth and having a lot of personal growth also. Wish you best of luck in the new year...

I also read the threads Orchad linked for you and they are very helpful also.

I don't consider my latest episode to be all bad. I have told H what I felt when he didn't answer my question and I saw him doing all the amends. He must have felt so guilty.
I have been calm and caring as much as I can and he has been very caring also. I wrote him an email telling him how I felt and my confusions today from my work and I know he probably won't respond but I think that's ok with me now. I think I am getting stronger and less dependent on him emotionally and I see him getting more dependent on me emotionally. Anyway, I feel my peace is coming back and I am grateful for that. I still believe in our M, and I am learning ways to get it to the place I want it to be...

Anyway, just wish everybody a very happy new year and great progress ahead in terms of personal growth and marital recovery! And I want to thank you all for providing a place for me to vent and to learn. Thank you...

Snowy

Hello ladies!

mvg, it sounds like you are learning to focus on your stuff, state your needs, and let his reaction/decisions be his to own. That's a good thing.

Since I talked to PWC about letting him go, FINALLY letting him go, his decisions, his reactions, I have felt so much better.

Since this conversation I've seen a bit of a shift in PWC's nature. If I'm not in the room with him, off reading, posting, or watching TV, or just sitting quietly, he seeks me out. He used to completely ignore me. It's an interesting switch, to say the least. He still isn't very touchy, feely, but I've let that go. What happens as a result, well, happens. We'll see.

I think he 'gets' it a bit more with every conversation. I'm not being judgmental when I say he is very self-absorbed, not in a narcissistic way, but in a focal sort of way. He can't see beyond his 'stuff', but isn't really dealing with it either.

Again, what happens as a result, happens. I've said all that I can, and I'm STILL doing what I can. I STILL give when I wanna, and take really good care of myself, treat myself, love myself, soothe myself.

Something that Orchid says regularly finally clicked with me. PWC taught me how to live without him, by his actions. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for me, but it is a bit of a detriment to our M. On the flip side, he can't seem to live without me, or SOMEBODY else. Being alone is not something I see him being very good at. It's not something we humans should do for long periods of time, but I think it's healthy to learn how to take care of yourself. Meh, that's a topic for a whole other thread.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that I'm still learning. I'm also done with our old dynamic, and glad for it. That doesn't mean our M is doing great. I feel for him. I can see he is trying, but not really doing the HEAVY stuff. He's at a point where the heavy stuff is all that is left. He has saved all the tough stuff, that leads to intimacy, for when I've let go of the rope. Hopefully, we'll see a shift coming soon.

I'm not holding out great amounts of hope that PWC will turn around quickly, I just hope it's enough and soon enough that I am still there.

He's about to have a very rude awakening, taking care of both myself and our son. It's going to be a lot of work.

Hi Snowy & SL!
Snowy, I'm glad you are starting to feel peace and growing stronger for yourself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Something you said stopped me dead in my tracks..."He must have felt so guilty." WOW you said that so sympathically and I can feel your feeling bad for him feeling guilty. I hadn't really thought of WH as FEELING so guilty, the pain in that statement. Powerful. Maybe the guilt is holding them back. I hope they can come to grips with it so they can move forward too.

SL I'm trying very hard to focus on my stuff! I'm glad you are making headway with YOURSELF inregards to PWC. I know what you mean about the 'heavy' stuff...maybe it's a man thing....I don't get it with them sometimes. But after reading Snowy's post...maybe alot has to do with guilt, I dunno.

I know you only have a few more days more before your surgery. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and your family. I pray that you will be safe, sound and healed with this, and that your PCW will care for you and your son as he should and be grateful you are in his life. Please let us know that you are ok when you can. (((take care SL)))

Sl just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you and your upcoming surgery.

SL:
I wish you best of luck on your tomorrows operations. Remember we are thinking of you and praying for you...

mvg:
I think guilt and shame play a huge part in my H's not able to open up. Plus he doesn't feel safe and he has great fear that I might leave some day. You would think with those fear, he should do whatever he needs to do to help me heal, but he just doesn't. He tries very hard using his own way though. His love language is service and financial security. He provides as much service as he can to me and the kids nowadays. With a very demanding job and 14 hour days ( 1.5 hour commuting each way to the city ), he manages to help me with kids work and house work sometimes and does a whole lot during weekends. He provides great financial security to us and has been providing us with more family vacations and home remodeling, etc after Dday.
Those do help and I do apprecaite them, but it just feels not enough sometimes. And his not willing to answer my questions is setting us back very often and he is aware of that, but still he is not willing to do it.

Sometimes I feel that he is living in a miserable state. He only feels happy when I am in good mood. And he just can't take initiatives. I feel bad for him sometimes. But there is something in me that is pulling me away from my love and compassion for him, and that's causing a lot of turmoils in our recovery all these months.

I am learning to be calm and patient. I realize that I can't force or control him in any way and I am trully getting that. I just need to make up my own mind and stick to my own plan and I seem to have trouble doing that still. But believe me, I was even worse before. So I do see progress in myself, although it comes so slow...

I will keep loving, but making my feelings known to him. I won't repeat myself too much and I will control my AOs and LBs. Other things are just out of control for me.

I do still love my H. That's what keeps me going.

Ok, enough rambling again. Have a nice day everybody.

Snow

Snow, I can understand the way you feel. I too have felt that even with all that 'he' does, it isn't enough. Maybe because he's not meeting your most important ENs?

Question for your questioning mind...do you want to know more of the how could this have happened type questions or details of the A, when, where, how often, his emotions with that?

GOtta run...darn...keep on keeping on...you'll make it!
(((SNOWY)))

Yesterday was the last day of hunting season! YEA!!! Some how this feels like a point where I'll find out (finally) where my WH's feelings for me really are. His hunting time has IMO really interfered with our starting on recovery.

Thansk mvg.
I need to clear my mind more to understand what kind of questions I need answers for. Actually I know the most facts. My H was very willing to answer all the questions when he was determined to leave, which lasted only two weeks after Dday (his confession). After he came back and we started to rebuild, he started to actually shut down.
I have some facts that I don't know and I want to start from there. And then expend that to how this could have happened type of question.
From our daily interaction and caring about each other and from activities with friends and their family, I know H feels very differently about what he did, and he hasn't been justifying his actions lately. And he seems to do all other kind of things to compensate for what he did, showing that he knows what he did was wrong. But he just wouldn't talk about it at all. And his way of healing is to try to forget about it all and wishing me to do the same.
We will see. I have been taking harder stand lately in this and what he is doing is a little withdrawal and then full force meeting my other needs.
Yes, my most important ENs, which are affection and openness of his feelings are not being met, so I feel that what he has been doing is not enough.

mvg, I'm glad that you will have more time with your H since the hunting season is over. I find that spending time with each other more plays a huge role in marital healing. Even though we still have a long way to go, I find that after spending time with each other and caring about each other, we grow closer and closer and I hope gradually we will have a little opening that we can get into each other's soul again and we will go deeper from there...

Snow

Yes, my most important ENs, which are affection and openness of his feelings are not being met, so I feel that what he has been doing is not enough.


Snowy, I hope your WH will start to move forward in the H&O areas. I'm not really sure either how to convince/get them to see/ whatever accomplish that. My WH does the same type of thing as yours. Some times it feels like beating my head against a wall.

I know it's been stated many times here that by meeting their most important EN's many WS's will emulate that and start to meet yours.

There are alot of times I feel like my WH is so determined to sweep this under the rug, that he forgets that 'could' happen alot faster IF he met my EN's sincerely & enthuastically.

I know 'we' can't change them but I sure do wish I could. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe a vet will see this and give us both advice.

Take care.

Looking for some wisdom here...

I feel like I'm stuck. Our M is stuck. I feel like my H is either stuck or this is as good as it gets. I don't see any more progress, actually I can see things slipping a bit. Nothing to do with EA but with US. I don't know how to redirect, we're falling back into the same ole same ole behaviors.

WH thinks things are going good. I don't. They aren't bad they just aren't moving forward. He isn't doing any more to meet my EN's. I'm still meeting his. I'm getting tired of waiting. I'm getting tired of talking and then no progress.

HOW do you handle these times?

Hi mvg,

I saw that you occasionally posted on the Renter's/Buyers Support Thread?

It was difficult to me to grasp the concepts the first time, but I've been re-reading it and things are starting to click. You might check it out again.

My DH and I are overcoming a huge challenge (non-A) that is actually bringing us closer together in a way I never imagined. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but it sure feels good to be so valued. Hopefully you guys can accomplish something similar without the challenge.

Ace

P.S. Here is a link to an article by Dr. Harley that Mark linked on that thread: Renter/Buyer/Freeloader

Mvg,

I don't have advice for you; I just want to say that I can empathize with you. I get that feeling (not so much now) and have gotten to the point of detachment whenever I start feeling that way (the "no progress way"). It almost feels like I'm on ADs again. I'm not sure if this is just a normal part of recovery, but it sure is giving me some rest from emotional turmoil.

mvg,


Ah, but some of that stuff can change. You just have to change the dance a bit.

Things sort of go like this, he does A, you do B etc, etc. Those are where the old patterns come back. Now the next time he does A, you do C. That is how you change the pattern. The hard part is figuring out how to change the pattern and what to change it to. It's stuff to think about ahead of time. Think about an area where you are stuck and think about what you will do differently when he does A.

The first time you change the dance steps on him he might get a little confused, but keep it up because eventually he hopefully want to learn the new steps, too.

For my DH and I the key was really learing to communicate and being comfortable doing it.

Have you told your H what you said about meeting your needs will help you have a better chance of moving on. If not, do so.

My DH absolutely hated to talk about anything, but now I can get him to talk w/o "forcing" him.

I had to learn to make him feel comfortable and acknowledge his feeling.

If I wanted to talk about something I knew he didn't I would say. "Honey, I know you hate to talk about this stuff, but I need to work something out and would appreciate your help." (or something like that).

Or if during our conversations he looked uncomfortable, angry, sad or whatever I would acknowledge his feeling by saying, "Honey, I can see this is making you angry and I am sorry for that would you rather we wait and talk later."

I know I have recommended this book before on here. It's an easy read and easy to apply his ideas. It's called "Communication Miracles for Couples," by Johnathan Robinson.

For us it was learing to communicate that led to many positive changes.

LC

mvg,

I have another question. Has your H read any of the Harley books?

LC

Thanks everyone. I read Ark's 'be still' IF ONLY! ugh

I know communication is still a problem for us. I know I probably haven't made it a safe place for WH. NOT that I throw things in his face, but more like I've discounted his feelings. Shame on me, shame shame shame. I am working on it. I need to listen better. LC, I will look for that book.

I have told him how I feel about my EN's not being met. Nothing changes. Unfortunately, I've told him many times...I guess in my mind I'm thinking ok I wasn't clear enough, or he didn't hear me....wrong, he's heard me. He's told me he gets it. But still nothing. Maybe my biggest 'mind' problem is I can't figure out WHY and he says he doesn't know. So here I sit trying to figure it out and my head hurts. So where do I go from here?

mvg,

I like what Ace said about the Buyers/Renters. When I read that section in FIL/SIL it made so many things makes sense to me. Print that stuff out and ask him if he would be willing to read it together with you. IMO, it's all in the presentation if he will willingly agree or feel forced.

Approach him and say, "I feel like we are stuck, I am hoping we could go over this together and maybe reading it together will help me figure out why I am feeling the way I do."

Avoid using the word "you", instead use "I", "me", "we" He will feel attacked and get defensive if you use the word "you". For example if you did say, "You really aren't doing your part in meeting my needs so I think it would be a good idea for you to go over this information about Buyers/Renters."

Most likely he will only feel attacked and not listen.

Both examples I posted ask him to do the same thing. Which one do you think would get a better response?

LC

H hasn't read any of harley's books. HNHN is sitting there collecting dust. He says ok I'll read them but anything and everything gets done before that...and meeting my EN's!

I casually mentioned him reading HNHN again last in in response to him asking me to read an article he was interested in. I'll see if he follow thru this time.

He's NOT big on reading together but I will try. I do use "I" statements...definately didn't want to appear I was attacking/blaming him.

I need to go back and reread buyers/renters again. I was having a very hard time distinguishing the differences. I 'thought' I was a buyer, but apparently I'm a renter. THAT was a RUDE awakening. So I need to go back and slowly and delibrately read over that again until it makes sense.

Thanks for hanging with me on this.

mvg, I just wanted to pop in and say hi.

It's the same old same old, isn't it? Maybe start taking the approach that your FWH isn't going anywhere, that he's there to stay. Loosen up! Don't think about touching him, talking to him, laughing OUT LOUD, JUST DO IT.

Speak up, not just about EN's, but about ANYTHING, EVERYTHING. The weather, your broken fingernail, that joke that you heard at work, the bills and your ideas to get back on track. Start with the small stuff, throwing in big stuff now and then.

As always, take care of yourself, shift that focus onto you. Let him take care of you, now and then, too.

I'll say what I said to sdguy, control is an illusion.

I'm not being lavished in hugs and kisses, but I'm being lavished with attention, because I'M ASKING FOR IT; little niceties, favors and such. Really, I'm just asking for tasks to be done. Once I'm healed, I plan on continuing this, showing my NEED for my husband. He needs to be needed; part of that machismo, manly, man, admiration thingy.

Much of this time in our recovery, I've been asking for him to step up, but I have often wondered when I was going to step up, myself; really drop that rope and free myself from my own little cage. I have now. Given, I have very good reason to be buyerly, with the surgery and recuperation, but you can find any excuse to just take those first steps.

Not only do I kiss and hug him, but I go get what I need, too. I ask for kisses, or act coy and point at my puckered lips and get my kiss. I'm fine with that. I ask for him to scratch my back. I ask him how do I look. I'm not fishing, just talking, opening up the lines.


Anyway, take what you want, leave what you don't. Just $.02 from a drugged out friend...