Let me explain....My H & I have been in recovery for 3 years now. He had an A back in 2003 w/a woman he met through work for 7 months. He moved back home in early 2004 & we've worked hard at getting our M back on track & we are very happy. But....

Back in '93, my H had a ONS w/his sister in-law (his brother's W) while he lived w/them briefly. He had just turned 21. We were M'd for about 2 years & I didn't find out about it until 8 years later, around 2001. Since then, my BIL & this woman D'd. She is now remarried. We have been seeing our niece/nephews through his brother when he would get them EOW. This was good. He didn't have to have contact w/our ex-SIL, hence following the NC rule (this does work for ONS as well, right?). A few months ago, BIL & his ex-W went to court about support again (the 3-year review) & my BIL decided to sign off rights to his children. So, in order for us to see our niece/nephews, we have to go through his ex-W & her new H.

Will this hurt our M if we have contact w/our ex-SIL? I know that H regrets ever having slept w/this woman & has kicked himself in the behind more than once for that. He looks at her now w/disgust. All contact about the children would go through me, not him. What I don't want to happen is, if we follow through the NC for life as we should, will these children feel that we abandoned them as well as their father? We want them to know that we are still their aunt/uncle & still love them, no matter what BIL's decision was. Is this wise or are we headed down a very slippery slope here? We love our niece & nephews very much. We don't want to stop contact w/them; however, it seems the only way we can have contact w/them is through her.

ST:

Wait a minute...

Your BIL doesn't care about access 2 his own children and you want 2 re-establish contact with his xW (the OW) so that you can?

-ol' 2long

2long,

I know it sounds crazy. It's quite messed up. Everything was fine while my BIL was getting his kids on a regular basis. He would bring them over, they'd call us while they were in town, they'd play w/their cousins, we've had a great relationship w/our niece & nephews. Because he feels the child support he was paying was too high, he agreed to have all parental rights terminated. My H & I are very angry. His decision to terminate parental rights has affected all of us in this family. Because he did this, we will no longer get to see them, talk to them, my kids won't have access to their cousins, unless we go through his ex-W now. What other way can we maintain a relationship w/them?

I don't want them later on in life to throw back in our faces that we didn't care about them b/c that's totally untrue.

Okay, I ac2ally understand this somewhat, as we had 2 take charge and get the county 2 step in and take care of our nieces and nephew when their parents (my W's brother and his W), flaked out. My nephew had 2 live in a group home for a 2ple years when he was about 14 or so, whereas the girls (a few years younger) were placed back with their mom after a 2ple months in the county home.

It was a sad si2ation. BIL is a paranoid schizophrenic who still lives in his van, and xSIL had threatened 2 kill herself and the kids on Christmas Eve. This was about 10 years ago.

She's remarried and the kids have lived with her off and on since - though the oldest daughter has been out on her own a lot.

We have the decent relationship with them now because my W stepped in and 2k charge when their parents wouldn't.

So, I understand what you're saying.

If it were me, I would make sure that contact occurs with both your xSIL and her new H, and you and your H present, and maybe that your H isn't involved in the exchanges at all.

But I wonder what the legal issues are. I suspect that if the xSIL doesn't want you 2 have visitation with the kids, that there's not much you can do about it.

How old are the kids? At some point, they'll have their own say.

-ol' 2long

I say you have a very unique situation and that the incident back in 93 isn't going to affect your H or marriage now considering the very strange circumstances.

Your BIL is a fool. He will have no say on his kid's lives and signing away his parental rights is stupid. There's other ways to reduce CS obligations, but giving up his rights with his children is the dumbest one you can possibly seek.

You can get around this issue by getting the kids yourself and then meeting with your H somewhere. Or you could have him stay in the car while you go get the kids.

This is assuming she lets you see them. In laws have no visitation rights.

Pop is right.

Your BIL is basically putting a dollar value on his own kids.

-ol' 2long

ST - let's just say that your BIL is not much of a father to give up his "rights" because he thinks the support is too high.

Regardless, if you want to have contact with the children, that is your choice and nothing anyone can say will change that. However, if your BIL's ex-wife has sole custody, all rights, etc., SHE can prevent any contact with the children by anyone.

I wonder if her current husband knows she slept with her then-husband's brother?

Infidelity....what a tangled web it weaves.

If you want to try to stay involved with the children, do so. Unless you think your husband is an utter jerk, it's unlikely that he would ever again consider that OW to be "affair material."

But the question is really whether or not YOU can "handle" or "tolerate" any contact, even if it's so you can see the children.

God bless.

Glad I could make it clearer. It is quite a dilemma that's going on here.



That's what I was thinking. She has actually apologized for her actions a long time ago while she & my BIL were still M'd. Her new H knows about the ONS too & he doesn't seem to be worried if she & my H would talk at all. I think everyone's really concerned about the welfare of the children at this point.



The oldest son just turned 17 in July & he's the one that e-mailed me to tell me about what his father did. He was extremely upset & called here to talk to me but I wasn't home the day it happened. So I e-mailed him back & he expressed an interest in still seeing us. His mother is aware & has encouraged him to continue to talk to us. He wants to come visit us; however, we would have to go to their house to pick them up/drop them off. The other son is 15 & the youngest, the daughter is 13. They do pretty much have their own say; however, my xSIL can be quite manipulative & ocntrolling, one reason why my BIL D'd her & we've had a # of problems w/her over the course of the years. I hope she doesn't make it difficult.



This is what I was thinking, Papa. It is quite a strange circumstance & I want to handle it well. I want to be prepared & keep my M strong in case things go haywire. We have a good united front right now, my H & I & I'd hate for that to go toppling if this is handled the wrong way.



I agree 100%! I haven't spoken to my BIL since this happened b/c I'm so angry & hurt that he would do this. He did speak w/my H about it b/c he wanted to know H's opinion (aka he wanted H to agree w/him) but H stood strong & disagreed w/him on everything BIL said. Yay hubby! We just can't understand his reasoning behind this, no matter how manipulating or conniving his ex-W is. There's no excuse, if you love your children, to just sign them away.

Thanks for chiming in, FH. I didn't realize you were still around! Good to see you! This woman, you have to tread lightly w/her & we both we realize that b/c not only did she have a ONS w/my H (her H's brother) but a few years later, also had a full-blown A w/her H's other brother (my H's twin!). And had children to him! Yes! What a tangled web!!!!! The last A to the other brother is over (thank God!) & she has been w/her new H for the last 5 years.

Infidelity has affected this entire family for far too long. I always tell my H that his family's story is a Jerry Springer episode! 3 children to her ex-H (h's brother), 3 children to H's other brother (H's twin) & now 2 children to her current H (thank God NO RELATION!!) lol

But anyway, I think I can handle contact. I have put all of that behind me & when I see her, I don't think OW anymore. I see her as BIL's ex-W. So if that makes a difference, then I guess we're good. I really do love my nieces & nephews very much & I'm close to all of them. Plus, I think these kids need a voice of reason surrounding them since their parents don't seem to have their heads screwed on real tight. They're not learning good morals, that's for sure & someone needs to teach them values.

Does your H's twin have contact with his children by your xSIL? Do you and your H have contact with them?

Aloha Standing, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I know that you know all of the dangers of breaking NC. That being said, if contact is necessary; it should be done with you present if possible. Set the ground rules ahead of time (i.e. no contact without you present, anytime she calls H needs to tell you about it and whatever else you feel you need to stay comfortable). There are rules for continued contact when children are involved (like a middle man) to keep NC intact.

The idea is make sure H’s weaknesses are protected and you always feel your M is protected.

Through all of this the kids may ask what’s up in case they are unaware of the past A.

Good to hear you two are doing well aside from this issue. Take care and God bless ya both.

S&C

Curious, my H's twin brother hasn't seen his children for 4 years, partly his fault & partly hers. If I continue contact w/the first three, then I would get to see the 2nd three as well. We have missed all of them badly.

S&C, Good to see you too! Boy, the vets are coming out! I do know the dangers & am trying to tread lightly & very cautiously. I don't want to start an avalanche! I'm not sure who the middle man could be in this case. I guess before the middle man was my BIL. He is gone from the equation now. So what to do?



Her kids do not know (as far as I know) about her & my H's ONS. Mine don't either. It's not something my H advertised to our children. It was quite embarassing for him & when it happened, they were extremely little. When the truth came out, I knew but the kids weren't told. We've kept it that way for all these years.

We are doing very well & I miss talking w/you. How's your son?

"Ring ring" Hey! Pick up the phone!

S&C