BK, I don't know what kind that is. She has been guilty of some pretty deplorable behavior for a number of years and she has admitted to an A affair with a coworker from before we were married (the OM was married) more than thirty years ago which I believe was when we were engaged but she is pretty hazy on the dates. So, if she felt guilty about that, I guess she can live with a guilty conscience. She has lied to me so many times about her A's that I don't know what to think of her character anymore. The fact that she has told me what she has is something, though. She is surely feeling guilty now but I believe she would have been perfectly okay with coming back to me for a few months and then going back to the U.S. to continue her A affair with me none the wiser had I not discovered the A.

Why do you ask?

Well because you say she is struggling with IF you can ever trust her again.

See My wife could not keep a secret like that. It would kill her conscience.

In your case, perhaps you should consider a lie detector then you both know you have the truth and she will know you will be able to trust her in the future as she proves herself trustworthy.

I hope that makes sense

Hi Hurt,

Mrs. RIF had the same 'fears'... that I would "never" trust her again and while we were rebuilding, she feared that I wouldn't believe her.

For me, there were many questions that Mrs. RIF just couldn't answer. I tried to "force" her, but all of her A's happened so long ago, that she said that she didn't remember... When I was a wounded BH, I thought to myself... BS!!! (and that didn't mean Betrayed Spouse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> )

One day our MC asked me how I would ever know the "truth"... I was positive that I knew about all of the A's... it was the details that were driving me nuts... I started thinking about his question and there really wasn't any way that I could know for certain that Mrs. RIF was teling the truth.

I agree that you MUST know about the total number of A's... and if you need to use a lie detector test to get this, then I would recommend it. But, if you are wanting to use a lie detector for the detail questions, then IMHO, I think that this would do more harm to rebuilding your M than good.

Honesty and openness are key factors in rebuilding... but it will take some time for your W to feel comfortable enough to open up and start answering your questions. Try to make it "safe" for her to open up.

Mrs. RIF said the same exact thing about me when we started rebuilding... she said that she was 'affraid' of me and that I was controlling...

Hope this helps...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I agree with RIF about the lie detector - we all pretty much know what 2 adults with functioning genitals get up to alone.

More to make sure she isn't hiding or lying to you about the extent of her betrayal.

Thanks again guys. Steve already told me a week ago I will never "know" for sure whether she is telling the whole truth or not. WW has already fibbed several times about details and it was driving me crazy wondering if she had a reason to lie, couldn't remember (some of these things are from when I was in the U.S. in August) or is just a natural liar, or all three. I'm beginning to believe that truthfulness is just not a high priority for her. I'm already blocking out the details from my mind of the A's but I still have the feeling that she is holding back on something else, maybe other A's but could be something else entirely. Money, a hit out on me, I can't tell. All I know is she seems to be holding something back and I have a bad feeling just like before I knew about her A's.

I would propose the polygraph if I could figure out where I could have it administered without having to travel to the U.S. Maybe we'll just have to. Does anyone know where I can get a polygraph performed in the ME?

A peculiar thing she brought up last evening was that she'll answer any question I ask but I shouldn't expect her to fill in the blanks for me. Sort of like the advice a defense attorney gives a client being interrogated or giving a deposition. She seems to see witholding facts as different than overtly lying. Like Dr. Harley, to me
one is as bad as the other.

For now, I'm hoping Steve can help us over this latest hurdle so we can begin recovering. Since honesty and openess are two of my personal boundaries, at some point I'll have to decide if I can live with the doubts or not.

I'm looking forward to reading her NC letter when I travel home tonight.

Yep, our MC told me the same thing... You are most definitely entitled to knowing the whole truth, but at what cost are you willing to try and dig the "truth" out of your W???


Here's a touchy subject...

As a BH myself, I fully believe that it is your right to know the answer to any and all questions that you have... everything.

I'm a 'detail' person and I had to know each and every detail. Plus 10+ years had passed since Mrs. RIF's last A and I needed to fill a bunch of blank spots in our M.

All I will say is that looking back on our rebuilding process, I truly wish that I HADN'T asked such detail questions... because it took me YEARS to get to a point where the mental movies didn't run around in my head.

You decide how much you want to know, then go for it... there's no limit to what you are entitled to ask... but there are some things that you might decide NOT to ask.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Yeah, RIF, I already decided that more details about what WW did with these guys isn't helping me. However, I do want to know what drove her to them and what it is that she was thinking then and is not disclosing now. There are a lot of gaps in what she says about what was motivating her. I asked her about a conversation she had with her enabler GF back in the States and she said "I was mostly telling her how unhappy I was" and I replied "You never talked to me about how unhappy you were and we spoke together almost every day for almost eleven months." I know that sounds judgemental and probably is but it is also true.

I'm just having a hard time understanding her and she isn't helping much. She says she is "shallow", not deep and thoughtful like our son and me. But I believe, as does Steve, that she is definitely not shallow, just afraid to open up.

Anyways, thanks for the help again. I think we'll just keep trying to work this out with Steve's help. Right now we are working on things she can do to eliminate dishonesty and I know feeling safe with me is probably at the top of the list. Any suggestions may help.

Hey Hurt,

I still don't know some of the "what were you thinking" type questions...

At one time they were VERY important... now, not so important because Mrs. RIF's actions showed me that she isn't the same person that she was then...

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF, hopefully Mrs. Hurt will become a changed person as well.

The good news is that she handed me her NC letter yesterday as promised. The letter looks like it was copied from SAA but it says all the right things and really means alot to me. She offered to mail it for me which I thought meant that she wanted to slip something else in the envelope but I have it now. She says she would never have been able to write the letter four weeks ago and would have had a very hard time even last week. So the fact that she finally did it seems like real progress to me. Maybe she is recovering from her addiction?

Now, I have to work on my plan for meeting her emotional needs and review LBs with her. Are there any posts with plans for meeting ENs that I can get ideas from?

I'll bring up our dishonesty issues tonight after our MC session with Steve.

Hey Hurt!

One of the best "tools" that you can use early on in your rebuilding process is POSITIVE reinforcement... You need to thank Mrs. Hurt for doing this for you. It might not have been 'exactly' how you wanted it... it most likely didn't happen as 'quickly' as you wanted it... but regardless of YOUR feelings... please let her know that you appreciate her efforts.

The goal here is to reinforce good behavior, no matter how small a sign it may be... I know that Mrs. RIF felt like [email]cr@p[/email] right after she confessed all of her A's to me and it didn't help when I'd "dog pile" her with more demands and requests...

If you guys have done the EN questionair, try to focus on her top 3 ENs... if it's conversation, talk with her... if you're apart because of your work... write her a REAL letter... (much classier than e-mail, IMHO). Send her cards and notes... You know your W better than anyone, so just try to do things that you know she would like and enjoy...

Glad to hear that you guys are progressing! It's a slow process... but you do need to celebrate the small victories no matter how insignificant they may seem...

Semper Fi,

RIF

RIF, I'm beginning to think of you as my guardian angel. (Can soldiers qualify as angels)? You always seem to come up with the right encouragement at the right time.

I had already told Mrs. Hurt that I was very happy with her NC letter and told her again right after my last post. Unfortunately, I ruined the previous moment by misinterpreting her offer to address the letter, not mail it which was how I heard her offer. She was concerned that if the letter is addressed by me that he might not read it if he sees male handwriting on the outside. I think he'll read it anyway but I could have handled that better. He'll also figure out that I know about them which is something I want him to be aware of. He was fearful (rightly) of me finding out.

WW thinks I read too much into a lot of what she says. I told her that I'm working on being less hypersensitive to every imagined plot that I can I can come up with. I also told her that I'm working on just listening to what she has to say. She says she is really struggling with what she really thinks and I told her to just speak her mind and her heart and I'll work on being a good listener. Progress.

I'll keep your comments about positive reinforcement in mind. I will be a better person when we are through this which may be the silver lining to this dark cloud.

Thanks for the help once more.

Hey Hurt,

I'm glad that I could help...and I'm glad that you guys discussed the letter and address. That is a HUGE step in the right direction.

One of the "techniques" that our MC taught us was to say "Here is what I heard you say..." BEFORE you answer a question or react to a statement... this gives the sender a chance to clarify any 'missunderstandings' that the receiver might have.

Regarding the EN's... if you know what her top 3 ENs are, throw them out here and I'm sure that you'll get lots of ideas on how others meet those ENs for their spouse...

Semper Fi,

RIF

"WW thinks I read too much into a lot of what she says. I told her that I'm working on being less hypersensitive to every imagined plot that I can I can come up with. I also told her that I'm working on just listening to what she has to say. She says she is really struggling with what she really thinks and I told her to just speak her mind and her heart and I'll work on being a good listener. Progress."

I think this is one of the problems my WXH stumbled over. Unfortunately this may cause the WS to be even less declined to want to talk about things... which then causes the BS to worry and wonder even more...

What RIF advised sounds like a really good idea so you are at least not left wondering exactly what did she mean whenever she says something. And if she does say something that gets you upset or worried try to remain calm and see if her feelings change in a day or two. She might still be on a bit of a rollercoaster for a while.

She also may be struggling with mixed emotions still, not even sure herself from one moment to the next what she wants. That's normal. A bit hard for a BS to listen to, but don't panic and take anything she might say right now as the way she will feel permanently. It's not unusual for the WS to drift in and out of some residual for for some time before the fog totally clears.

Thanks MM and RIF. I really believe WW is drifiting in and out of the "fog" and also struggling pretty hard with NC. She is still trying to protect OM as much as possible.

So now I need help in meeting her EN which are top three in descending order: conversation, admiration, and affection. Can anyone provide help in how I can meet these needs for her. I've read what the books have to say and am trying as best I can.

Any tips and/or guidance is welcome.

She probably will feel sorry for and try and protect OM for some time to come. It was 6 months after d-day before I knew MrsK "got it"

Hurt,


I think I can be of help here, although I'm not a WW.

If Affection is her top EN, it's always nice to feel like you are a "friend" when receiving affection.

For example, a friend might put his/her hand on your shoulder when passing by or during a moment of small talk. Then a little squeeze after reaching around the back sure makes it special. It's a way to say "I love you" plain and simple.

Now comes Admiration. Well, don't do what my husband does. That is, to tell me I look smashing in my new dress a day after I have worn it, and when no one else is listening. I hate that!

I want to know the moment he sees me in my new clothes. I want to hear his heartfelt (brief is fine) compliment immediately, because I am wondering if he likes it or not.

Don't let other men in public be the ones to do all the complimenting like I've experienced lately. It makes you wonder if you have a husband.

If you're first and on time with a genuine compliment, I think you'll do well with admiration. This is just one way to show admiration.

Now for Conversation. Please don't nod your head up and down all the time (I'm not implying that you do) as though you are listening, but in actuality just showing boredom, which in turn can become repulsive.

Listen to her talk. You don't have to fix any problems. Isn't that nice? Just try to understand that she has feelings to express - just for the sake of expressing. Expressing feels good. It also builds intimacy when you get to know each other.

Be sure to join in and share something about yourself that you never bothered to say or something deep down that you want her to know about yourself. For me, this is the best part.

I sure hope this helps, coming from a wife/woman of a long term marriage. I really do hurt for your situation and want the best for both of you!

Hey Hurt!

Observing had some great insight...

If you can, I would seriously consider taking a job that would allow you to spend your nights with your W... conversations over the phone just aren't the same as the "real deal"...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hey Hurt - Just wanted to check in with you and see how things have been going...

Semper Fi,

RIF

To RIF and Observing, thanks for the advice and I will try to follow it, especially Observing's comments on Admiration and conversation.

We had a very strange weekend and I almost lost my mind and ended up LBing big time but over something that went to the core of my being. WW and I went to a party two nights ago that we had been planning to attend for a long time. Right after we arrived in the restaurant we ran into a couple that we had had dinner with the previous week at another party. At the previous party, WW had ended up sitting next to and chatting with the H of this couple almost the whole dinner. I was very uncomfortable with the attention she was giving this guy and in fact went so far as to ask her to come with me after they ended up sitting together with no one else at the table after the dinner was over. We talked about it later and in an MC session with Steve Harley about WW protecting her vulnerabilities. Anyway, two nights ago we ran into the same couple and now we are immediately on a first name basis with the guy who the week before she couldn't remember the name of. So I asked her how did she come up with the guy's name and she said, "I remembered it". I thought this was strange and in the car driving home after the party, I asked her again how she came up with the guy's name and she changed her story to, "I was at a friend's house who knew the couple and asked what his name was." So alarm bells are going off in my brain about why the sudden interest in this guy that a week ago she hadn't known at all and about who I would have been happy if she had never shown any interest in. So I told her I thought she was lying again, that if she wanted to stay with me she would have to give up responding to guys who show an interest in her and how very upset I was with the whole episode which of course spoiled what had been a pleasant evening together otherwise. She ended up crying uncontrollably over my anger and both of us went to sleep unhappy.

So yesterday morning, I woke up after about three hour's sleep and told her that I didn't trust her at all and that every cell in my body was screaming don't believe her, she'll just hurt you again. She said she understood how I felt and why. The upshot to this is that WW now understands how sensitive I am to her having contact with any male that I don't have complete trust in and she accepts this.

WW told me early this morning that she now gets how hurt I can get with what would otherwise be innocent behavior. And now miracle of miracles, she is very happy that I am now listening to and accepting her opinions and paying attention to her feelings. I think she is finally embracing the MB principles about Plan A and accepts that I am changing. She didn't understand how I can suppress my anger and resentment over her A's but I said even though it is counterintuitive to be nice to a WS after they hurt the BS so grieveously, I will never be like I was before when I was angry at her many times all resulting in great damge to our M. I think she understands the MB process better as a result of us talking about it so all in all even though I regret getting angry about her attention to this guy at the party, I am ready to move on and I think she is feeling better about me too. A breakthrough as the result of a bad incident.

So I am hoping we can proceed on the MB method with a little more enthusiasm. I'm still looking for ways to meet her EN for affection and admiration.

Hey Hurt!

Nothing wrong with letting your W know that her actions at the party were a trigger for you. The hard part is in delivering it in a loving, safe, manner...

Affection & Admiration
* Hold her hand in public.
* Put your arm around her in public
* Complement her in public
* Take an interest in some of HER hobbies or activities
* Give her a back rub with no expectation of anything (read SF here) in return
* Send her a card for no reason at all
* Leave some sticky notes in her drawers where she will find them after you've left for your job... put little love notes on them...

Once you start looking for ways to be more affectionate to her, you'll start coming up with some more ideas... after all, YOU know her better than anyone else!

Semper Fi,

RIF