Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1966487 11/04/07 06:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
Finally the willow creek association has awakened to the fact that the format has allowed the religion of our culture to creep into the church complete with its tacit approval and even facilitation of divorce, especially the unilateral type under no fault laws that have as grounds "why women leave"

The fix, as Hybels says, will drop membership and anger the masses as gender preaching becomes Biblical again.


Too many unilateral divorces are destroying the church and our ability to even stake a position about things in society that we care about regarding family.

Hang on, the wailing and gnashing of teeth is about to begin.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037
WTF are you blathering about?

C'mon lemme tell you a few things about the "church" and divorce.


I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
D
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5
Ok tell me! I bet I agree with you 100%. And that would be what I was "blathering" about.
The church is totally messed up on divorce.

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037
My church asked me not to return because my wife is divorcing me.


I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 46
W
Member
Offline
Member
W
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 46
Divorce_Church, you kind of scare me.

"They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Matt. 23:4

Your blanket statements completely ignore the fact that a lot of women are being ABUSED and divorce is often the only way (the last resort) to rebuke an abuser. There are men being abused too. How can you make a blanket statement when the church is too often not equipped to deal with or even desire to deal with the ugliness of some of these marriages? We are not created to be another person's dysfunctional emotional whipping post. To think that it's somehow loving to endure endlessly such things is completely lacking in grace toward the victim. You advocate grace toward the perpetrator. (Pariah, I am not referring to you as a perpetrator by any means - case by case, remember).

Jesus taught GRACE + TRUTH, not just grace, not just truth. If that doesn't compel you to seek some understanding on a case by case basis, try Jeremiah 3:8. Even God drew back from evildoers.

You can't fix the church by unilaterally CONTROLLING women.


We see the world not as it is, but as we are.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 682
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 682
What is this about?

The divorce rate is supposedly just as high for Christians as non Christians. '

What are churches to do? Turn their head to divorce? Many churches offer divorce care and other recovery groups to help hurting people.

It's not something that can be ignored. Churches are facing more problems then ever before, families aren't as intact. Abuse is increasing. The stress of society is increasing.

Churches don't offer the "extended family" that I had through my church growing up. It's proven that there's less divorce when a couple has a support group.

I was in an abusive marriage. Christian counselors tried to get me to go back, counseled me with bruises on my arms. Tried to tell me I'd heal, and go back and be a good wife... Personally I think most pastors and Christian counselors are ignore and choose not to educate themselves about such issues.

One can not just brush off abuse and be washed clean, then go home to more.

Yes I agree that I've met a lot of Christians that take divorce too lightly, they seem to be the quickest to remarry - and often meet in the Christian support groups very quickly after a breakup.

They say the "other" person was wrong, not them. They "use" their religion to justify their divorce in some tainted way. Every "church" is different, some one extreme, some the other, some inbetween on divorce, abuse and other issues.

That's why it's called "free choice" we can choose the type of church we want to go to. If you want to go to a church that is againsts divorce, see's almost no grounds for it, you won't have a hard time finding some conservative backwards little church.

If you want churches that counsel those getting divorced - will accept anyone - then go to the big liberal churches with bandstands and divorce/codependency groups. They way to grow and would appreciate you putting money in their offering plates just as well.

Don't generalize about "the church" because there's no such thing... there's too many denominations, too many beliefs, too many humans with too many different experiences.

We make mistakes, we are human, even those who divorce are human. God forgives us all.

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 42
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 42
Holy Catholic family he has - church every sunday. HE has A and has me look like the reason for it. We are getting D...I am done. Not one of those Holy Catholics have called me -- after 30 years.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 31
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 31
In my opinion, I feel that alot of christians are quick to judge those who divorce. As for me, I am in the midst of trying to decide what to do with my marriage. I have been abused for 4 years (physically and emotionally.) This is why I have been in this marriage for that long is because of difference of opinion about divorce. Some say it's a sin and others say it is not. No one have an answer for me as to how to make the pain go away when my husband hits or push me. I can not make my husband leave the other woman and come to me. This is not what he wants. When he do come home he is not satisfied because he desire the other woman. So what happens when he is not satisfied being home? He beats me or yell at me every chance he gets! What do I do? Continue to let him do this? When I was younger, a christian woman left her husband because he was abusive. She was told to go back to her husband and she did and he killed her. I knew this woman. What if this happens to me? Then what will those that say stay with my husband do? You are going to go on with life but my life will be gone. This woman did not want to go back to her husband but she was told she took a vow! What good is it if I am keeping my vow to love him and he is not keeping his vow to love me? The Bible say that the husband is to love his wife as Jesus loves the church. Jesus do not abuse his church so why should I continue to tolerate my husband abusing me? Until you have walked a mile in my shoes and the other people shoes who are going through physical, verbal, mental abuse...I don't see how a person can judge those of us who have no other choice but to divorce. I know that some people are divorcing for petty reasons but there are many of us who have no choice but to divorce. I know for a fact that some churches turn their backs on people who are separated or divorced. Where is the love that the church teach and preach about? You push those who are divorced out of the church and yet you teach to love everybody. Why are there some of us who are excluded? No I am not a divorce advocate but I believe in protecting yourself from mental and physical harm. How can a Christian serve Jesus 100% when his/her spouse is constantly beating or nagging? I don't mean to offend anyone but when is enough, enough?

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
Tania,

Any church that tells you to remain and be abused is misguided and a church you should walk away from.

I do believe that it takes two to make a marriage work. I do believe there is hope for abusers. But they have to realize they have a problem and want help and actually get it and follow through with it.

The problem is that many abusers will come back crying and begging and pleading and offering to change and even go to a counseling session or two. But they are only trying to win their abused partner back. Perhaps they are even sincere in their own way, but they aren't committed to it.

In either case, your safety is tantamount. Get out and get out now.

The church I am now a member of is very strict on divorce in terms of teaching, however, it DOES NOT ever tell a woman to remain in an abusive relationship. That church will be the first to tell you get out and tend to your safety first. They don't tell you to run and take a new boyfriend. But get out and tend to your safety first. Let God guide you as to the next step(s).

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Quote
This is why I have been in this marriage for that long is because of difference of opinion about divorce. Some say it's a sin and others say it is not.

Divorce is not the sin, it's the hardness of the heart that leads to the divorce that is the sin..

Quote
No one have an answer for me as to how to make the pain go away when my husband hits or push me.

First, are you and your husband a member of a church body? And if you are, does your pastor and/or elders know your husband hits and pushes you?

if not, why not? Why haven't you told them? (they won't know to confront him if YOU don't go to them and let them know whats going on.)

if they do, then why aren't THEY talking to him about his sin?

Quote
I can not make my husband leave the other woman and come to me.

Your right, you can't, nor can the pastors and elders, but they can confront him..which is their responsibility.

Quote
What do I do? Continue to let him do this?

Nothing says you can not seperate yourself from this man, and his abuse..IF he is hitting and pushing you...call the police..let them take him to jail--and do not back down when he begs you to drop the charges..



Quote
What if this happens to me?

Then don't go back..even if the church says to...let them know that you will not go back unless they can assure you that he will not hit or push you again..as you are seeking them to help him deal with his sin..

Quote
What good is it if I am keeping my vow to love him and he is not keeping his vow to love me?


It does not sound like your husband is a Christian, but if he's claiming he is, then contact YOUR pastor and elders and ask them to confront him in his sin..as is their responsibility to their flock..if they refuse to do so, ask them WHY they refuse to address him concerning this matter? why do they refuse to help save a man's life from destruction??

Quote
The Bible say that the husband is to love his wife as Jesus loves the church. Jesus do not abuse his church so why should I continue to tolerate my husband abusing me?

you shouldn't..

Quote
Until you have walked a mile in my shoes and the other people shoes who are going through physical, verbal, mental abuse...I don't see how a person can judge those of us who have no other choice but to divorce.

There are others choices, seperating from him and not filing for divorce IS an option..If he refuses to repent from his sin and wants to leave..LET HIM LEAVE!!!! Just as the Bible say..if an unbeliever chooses to leave let them leave..



Quote
I know for a fact that some churches turn their backs on people who are separated or divorced. Where is the love that the church teach and preach about?

Ask that to the pastors of those churches..

Quote
Why are there some of us who are excluded?

Again, ask the pastors of THOSE Churches..

Quote
How can a Christian serve Jesus 100% when his/her spouse is constantly beating or nagging?

well, many Christians serve Jesus even when their spouse nags them. However, if a Christian is constantly being beaten, then they need to use the laws of the land that have been set in place and have the person beating them arrested and if need be put in jail, those are the legal conquences for beating a spouse..and the church should still confront the person concerning their sin..if they don't..ask the pastor WHY they won't!!!

Quote
I don't mean to offend anyone but when is enough, enough?

The first time he hit or pushed you..

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 682
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 682
There's a husband/wife preacher team I found online and listened to a few of their sermons. They were divorced so their mission is to "tell" others not to divorce almost under any circumstance. I went to their website and clicked on their little survey of questions about your marriage if you are contemplating divorce. Clicked on were you abused, yes. Were you cheated on, yes. Etc, etc. and then clicked the "result" and it said NO you shouldn't get a divorce. Under no grounds should you. Buy our books, listen to our sermons, we made it why can't you.

Christians are to reconcile if at all possible, but reconciliation isn't possible with someone truly evil. Someone really evil will lie, blame, cheat and manipulate over and over again. God doesn't ask anyone to live under those circumstances and be beat up in life repeatedlly. Cain was the "bad guy" of the Bible, just evil and mean - character flaws, and sometimes men or women marry a version of that without "seeing" before marriage the nightmare they are walking into.

I don't buy into the "no reason for divorce" that this couple or any other Christian preaches. Yet today I think there is way too much divorce, if the divorce rate of Christians is the same as non-Christians we all should be questioning that. Perhaps we should question some of the liberalism out there too - such as in Joel Osteen's new book about well "divorce happens" and we are to just move on with our lives as quickly as possible... it's like some miracle instant gratification thing. We aren't to take separation or divorce lightly, we are to seek counsel and wisdom and we are to go to the Bible. Yes divorce happens, and we if we get divorced we can't forever live in shame - nor do we need rocks thrown at us by the church. Somewhere inbetween black and white, is the grey area on marriage. Some of the grey we have to sift through ourselves and decide what we as individuals believe and can life with.

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,150
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,150
Where I go to church, our leaders encourage an abused wife to leave her husband and seek a divorce. They helped her find the resources she needed and did their best to support her as she raised their 3 sons.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
I have so many problems with any person or organization that recommends any woman to stay in an abusive marriage that I can't even fathom the reasoning behind it. This is one of those things that puts me right off organized religion.

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 165
I just want to reiterate that not all churches tell abused women to stay in those relationships. The church that I go to has the word "Family" in it's title and it is very tough on divorce but when a women says she has been hit or abused the church will counsel that woman to separate from her husband and tend to her safety first and to focus on God. In cases here the husband is in church they reach out to the husband as well and they insist that he allow the women to leave and try to get him into counseling and mentoring, etc. I suspect they would have a path to reconciliation over an extended period of time if the man truly showed change and a heart after God but to be honest in the few cases I've seen, I've never seen a man be sincere and stick with it. It's not to say it can't happen. I do think people make mistakes and I do believe in giving people a second chance and I do believe that even an abusive husband can change and can become a great husband, but I think its rare that it actually happens.

In the end, safety is first. If he's abusive, get out. And when he cries and swears he will change and goes to counseling a few times, its not time to trust him yet. He may even mean it when he says he wants to change but he's not at a point in life where he's truly accepted what he's done and wants to turn it around, he devastated by the loss and wants to win you (her) back. He won't truly change until he knows all is lost and he will never get you back and then he changes anyway and sticks to the counseling because he truly realizes how wrong he is and doesn't want to repeat it with anyone else and after a long extended period of self care, counseling, change of heart, etc. its possible that he may have changed but even then I would be very hesitant to trust it.

Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 8,079
Quote
Where I go to church, our leaders encourage an abused wife to leave her husband and seek a divorce. They helped her find the resources she needed and did their best to support her as she raised their 3 sons.

Cinderella,

Do you know if they confronted him for his actions towards his wife or not?

I know in our church, they try to do that..they send letters asking the come in to discuss the maritial problems, they go to their house in order to speak to them..they make every effort they can to get the couple to address the issues..and if over the course of I'd say of two to three years if they are still unwilling to address the problems, then they let the person know...IF you choose to divorce, you have our support..it's not what we want, and we know it's not what you want..but it is permissiable..based on their choice to abandon the marriage..


Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5