This is something that happens occasionally. After filling out the EN quest., I gave it to H. After a period of about 6 months I readdressed my needs with him. I let him know what I felt and what I needed. I did it calmly and without any disrespect. His response was something like..."so all I've done is a waste, and I'm wrong again".


I can't for the life of me explain to him, so he is not offended, that he is not bad or wrong, his attempts are just off target. I have tried countless times. I use "I" statements. I don't nag.

It seems like a hopeless, viscious circle. And I have started to avoid even thinking about my unmet needs.



How else can I change my thinking or approach so this dynamic will change?

Tell him exactly what you posted, Michele. Honesty doesn't always FEEL good right away. Many feel criticised when met with honesty.

Be honest with him about seeing his efforts, and let him know that you appreciate them, but do not back away from discussing EN's. Ask him about his EN's and if he feels they are being met in ways that he likes. Start a dialogue.

He will be offended. I know that my FWH was ANGRY this weekend when I sent him that email because I told him about my unmet needs. That's all he could see, was my disappointment. If I had made a BUYERS approach, things may have been different, but I went RENTER all the way.

If it isn't clear, please let me know and I'll be glad to frame it another way.

Hey Froz, yeah I need the idiot version I think.

wildhorses,



In that scenario, a Buyer would continue to express their dissatisfaction over the issue using a thoughtful request and never using AO, SD, DJ's or any other LB.



It is his responsibility to decide what would work for him and communicate it...BUT if you are dealing with someone who is not a Buyer, that isn't going to automatically happen. And there are things that can encourage him to become a Buyer and definitely behaviors that can discourage him.



Your willingness to give is enough when you are doing the best you are truly capable of to create conditions for your marriage to thrive.

Your willingness to give is too much when it is enabling and/or causing you to feel resentful.



If you really want to delve into a better understanding of where his responsibility ends and yours begins...have you read Boundaries or Boundaries in Marriage ?

Michele,


Such an EXCELLENT question. That was the roadblock I also ran up against.

And there are several ways you could attempt to resolve that issue. Have you ever considered MB Weekend? Has he read HNHN?



Most importantly, avoid LB's. That method would only hurt your cause, rather than help it.

Resist the desire to take the path of least conflict by ignoring your own unmet needs.

When he feels frustrated because his efforts didn't hit the mark, avoid responding out of your own frustration.

I've been waiting for the opportunity to discuss POJA on this thread. I have been trying to wait until the Renters first recognize Renter-ness fully. The reason I am reluctant to discuss POJA yet is because without a full understanding of how to execute the concept, quite possibly it would be misapplied and a bad POJA withdraws units and causes damage.

If you feel as though you are fully ready to execute POJA, Michele, I'd be glad to give you some ideas about how to do that. How about on a separate thread?



Then possibly the delivery could be changed.

mvg,



Can you fill me in on which parts you DO understand and which parts you don't and we'll go from there?

Actually, Froz, it matters not how much tact I use when bringing up my issues, just as Michele has stated. My FWH gets prickly and withdraws. It could be that he believes I am angry no matter what we talk about. I haven't given him reason before now to believe otherwise, since I was always resentful of sacrifice; that had to come through, no matter what my approach. I really don't know for sure. Either way, I'm trying to recognize my approach, and work on it.

SL,

There is nothing a Freeloader loathes more than sacrifice.

Possibly when you approached him in the past it was a request that he sacrifice? If that is the case, I can definitely see why a Freeloader would prickle and withdraw when approached about meeting their Renter's needs.

This is why I feel it is extremely important for the Renter to fully grasp what it is that makes them a Renter BEFORE they approach their Freeloader with negotiation - because if a Renter doesn't execute POJA perfectly, no way will they be able to get a Freeloader on board with the concept because the Freeloader will likely view it as another attempt to try to get them to sacrifice (and maybe they would be correct in that assertion).

I guess the things I was asking for in the past, before the A's could be considered sacrifice.

I asked for help with our son, bathing, getting to bed, etc. I asked for domestic help, mostly. I could tell he was angry when I asked for these things, but did not have a clue as to how NOT to ask for them. We were parents, dealing with many of the same issues with parenthood, and I thought he SHOULD be on the same page with me (bad case of the SHOULDS, I had).

These things were sacrifice, because he was not at all enthusiastic or even okay with them.

I don't know what I've said or done to encourage PWC to help, but he is helping in the domestic capacity. I dont' even have to ask anymore. Where I fall short, he picks up the slack. It's really how I always wanted it to be. I'll have to think about that one. I also have found better ways to relay my needs, in the domestic capacity. Maybe PWC just came to his own conclusion that he could do it and feel some reward by virtue of doing it. Maybe my recognizing what he does and being grateful has helped. Maybe one begets the other. I really don't know for sure.

This is going to take a great deal more time to get a handle on. I'm not expecting to wake up and miraculously know how to shift from the renter to the buyer. I've still got a lot to learn about boundaries.

Heck, I'm just glad that I've made progress. I may backslide, but I recognize it much more quickly, and begin to make amends straight away when I do wrong.

Is it not possible for the freeloaders to start taking advantage of the buyer status?


A freeloader won't though. A freeloader doesn't look for a win win sitch. A freeloader wants what they want. You are not dealing on the same plane.

In order for a win-win to be worked out, or enthusiastic agreement to occur both parties would have to POJA. Free loaders don't usually POJA so how would a Buyer engage a Freeloader into POJA? It goes against the nature of a freeloader.


Buyer wants to POJA Freeloader throws in the towel.


So the freeloader says we are not compatible and you are always expressing your dissatisfaction which further proves the point, that we are not compatible. So then how do I respond to We don't like the same things and you are always trying to stop me from doing what I want or trying to get me to do what you want.

I don't mean to be pessimistic about this approach but it sounds like extending plan A which may be dangerous.

We move from being a buyer to a doormat if you are not careful.

The supposition is that if I.....then they will...... In a freeloaders case that may be a bad supposition.

The freeloader needs professional help.

There is something missing for them when it comes to how to work within the dynamic of a relationship.

Oh and by the way I am not just talking about just a FWS or a WS that is a freeloader, There are plenty of BS' here that once the A took place moved to the Freeloader status thinking they deserve if.

I agree the concept is good but I would be careful in the execution.

Hey Frog,

Dr. Harley never says to stick it out with a unrelenting freeloader.

SL,



The issue is not about the THINGS you asked for, but about the METHOD you used to ask for them.

If you approached him with the belief that he "should" do this or that, I find it difficult to imagine that it wouldn't come across non-verbally in your interaction.

And the point isn't really whether or not he SHOULD do these things. I probably SHOULD pick up after myself daily but if Patriot approaches me with a request and frames in such a way that tells me that I SHOULD, it isn't going to come off to me as a thoughtful request. It's going to look like a selfish demand. And I don't know about you, but I'm stubborn. I resist demands.

I'll illustrate the difference (and it's just an example):

Selfish Demand -

Patriot: Froz, the house is such a mess. It's really starting to annoying me. I need you to clean it up.

Froz: (feeling blamed and criticized) Well, I've been busy. You should understand that because you're busy and don't do things I want you to do either. Maybe I WOULD make more effort to keep the house picked up if you had taken out the trash like you should have.

Both of us probably have accurate points. It isn't the merit of our points that is the issue. It's our approach to problem solving that is the issue.

So let's try a Buyer's strategy, shall we?

Patriot: Froz, I'd like to talk to you about something that is bothering me. I know that you have been really busy and that some of the household chores have been falling by the wayside. I would really like to find a way for us to keep the house neater. How would you feel about helping me brainstorm some ideas to accomplish that?

Froz: It actually would be nice if the house were cleaner. Sometimes I think to do it but then I get sidetracked by the kids and then I never do come back to it.

Patriot: I have some ideas. How would you feel about me taking the kids to the park for an hour when I get home from work? That would give me time with the kids and offer you time to pick up the house without distractions.

Or maybe we could all help you? It wouldn't be a bad idea to teach the kids what it takes to help run a household.

Froz: Actually, I'd love it if we spent more time together as a family! And if we could get the house cleaned and get some family time in at the same time, that would be great!!!

Patriot: Fantastic! Would you be willing to iron out the details together and set a schedule for accomplishing that?

Froz: I'd love that. Hey, I'm suddenly in the mood for SF!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

POJA, when executed improperly, withdraws units. Not only does it not work to accomplish getting your needs met, but the experience of the negotiation itself withdraws units.

POJA executed properly DEPOSITS units. In the second scenario, not only will Patriot get his need for domestic support (and SF too!), but I will get my need for Family Committment met.

We came together in resolving that conflict. It was a pleasant experience for both of us and the result of that is that we feel bonded, on the same team and we both get our needs met.

If your spouse isn't enthusiastic about doing something you want (which is usually meeting a need), perhaps take a look at sweetening the deal. Negotiating is like bartering...both parties should walk away feeling like they won something.

That was totally fictional, btw, just in case you got the false impression that I actually CLEAN. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you SL.

I know He doesn't. I think when we get into these discussions that should be a disclaimer at the very begginning. LOL

Become a buyer and if things don't change then.....

What you just said.

The onus is on two people in any relationship. Sometimes it is necessary for one person to take the lead but the other must follow.

Sometimes people just don't like to follow and if that is the case it is not always something the leader did or didn't do.

Take the onus and become a buyer but if the freeloader doesn't follow......

Yes. In that scenario, a Buyer would either trade in their Buyer Agreement for a Renter's Agreement by sacrificing or they would terminate the relationship.

I would encourage someone in that situation to FULLY AND THOROUGHLY EXAMINE their contribution - meaning are they truly a Buyer or are they really a Renter who THINKS they are a Buyer (which is far more common, IMO).



A Freeloader looks for their win. I believe that if you can show them a way they can win that doesn't involve sacrifice, it is possible that they can be converted.



The nature of a Freeloader is not to sacrifice. Oddly, that is also the nature of a BUYER!

A lot of the Freeloaders I have seen are paired with Renters. Given that, POJA looks to those Freeloaders like a crafty new way to get them to agree to sacrifice. When they refuse to sacrifice, their Renter views them as or even tells them that they are selfish.

That is the mindset of a Renter at work. Sacrifice = unselfish. Unselfish = virtuous. They project that same belief onto their Freeloaders, which results in withdrawals and loss of feelings of romantic love.

The reality is that sacrifice = dissatisfaction. It is in this manner that Renters are responsible for their own dissatisfaction and discontentment. Instead of owning that dissatisfaction as their property, they tend to place the blame for it on their selfish Freeloader.



Stop trying to get what you want by asking them to stop doing what they want.



A Buyer would never be a doormat because a Buyer isn't willing to sacrifice.



That isn't the supposition at all. It's more like...if I stop hindering, possibly they will...



If you make that judgment about a Freeloader, it is no surprise to me that they aren't willing to budge. I wouldn't bunch a centimeter for someone who believed that about me.



Plenty of RENTERS who moved to Freeloader status as a result of feeling entitled.

Why did they feel entitled???

Well, it must have been all that sacrificing they did!



There is nothing dangerous about treating your spouse with respect. There is nothing dangerous about asking for what you want while at the same time considering what your spouse wants.

I don't.

It would only succeed in encouraging a Renter to continue blaming their selfish Freeloader for the problem...something they are all too ready to do from the start.



And to that Buyer, I would caution...are you SURE you are a Buyer?

Because guess what?

If you are a Renter, your methods are ONLY conducive to short-term solutions, which means that your next relationship will also be short-term, and the next, and the next...

It would save a lot of grief to figure that out now in your current marriage than it would two marriages (and two painful divorces) later.

I'm a little puzzled as to how the Renter--> Buyer dynamic is supposed to work out in cases like SL's where the contentious issue is childcare.

The bathing, putting to bed, etc., is something that has to be done - no-one would suggest that inability to POJA should result in the child staying up all night and getting dirty, would they?

In the untidy house scenario, it didn't really matter if the house remained untidy. If one spouse expressed a desire to change the situation, and the other didn't respond, it didn't really matter.

But in SL's example, no matter how Buyerly she expressed her need, if there was no response from PWC, she would simply have to get on with the task herself...a forced sacrifice that's likely lead to Renterly resentment.

If a Freeloader freeloads as a parent, isn't there a deeper problem?

TA

TA,



Of course not, but the way that gets accomplished is completely negotiable.



Why didn't it matter? It may have mattered quite a bit to the spouse who wanted it done.

I used those issues as examples of the dynamic. They can apply to ANY AND ALL conflict in marriage.

And I'd be willing to bet that some of the bigger issues wouldn't even exist had couples resolved the smaller issues in this manner.

If a couple were to resolve each issue in their lives (big and small) in this manner -

Imagine that each negotation that results in both spouses feeling as though they have won respresents one brick.

Over time they will have built an entire HOUSE made up of bricks that have elements of all the things that are suited perfectly to both spouses.

Both spouses are thrilled to live in this house.
Both spouses would never want to even imagine living in some other house.
Both spouses would likely want to keep this houses forever.

Do you not see it?

That this is the way you take two very different inviduals and make them compatible?

What good is living in a house that only one of you loves? The other would always hope that it wouldn't be a permanent residence.

What good is living in a house that you hate?

Why would you want to ask your husband/wife to set up permanent residence in a house that you know they don't like?

In my case, in the NOW, I ask for what I need, and wait for an answer. I have not been faced with an outright NO. PWC usually says yes, to domestic support. Now, as for OTHER needs, those go unmet.

I recognize that this may be partly fog, withdrawal, whatever entitlement issues exist with PWC. That's his choice. MY choice is to attempt to elevate from Renter to Buyer. I also realize that my approach may not have endeared him to me, lately. As I said, I've got a lot to learn before I become a buyer.

I would love to live in a house that we both love. I want this for the both of us. I can do my part.

I think we get caught up in how to BE a buyer right away. I don't think that's possible. It is a series of changes that gets you there. I don't see me becoming a buyer right off.



I can say that this was our dynamic. I don't believe it is today. Still being a renter, I see this coming across in other arena's. If PWC would not help, then yes, I would have to bathe our son and get him to bed. If I ever asked, it would upset PWC. I can't tell you why, as I am not him. This could help me to understand how I communicated things to him, but he never talked about it.




Interestingly enough, this was how I approached many of my requests for domestic support early on. It wasn't until that need went unmet time and again that the resentment began to build. I will admit that I allowed resentment to build and did not broach the subject every time it occurred, but when I did approach it, it was in a respectful and care filled manner.

I allowed the resentment to build, he didn't CAUSE that. That was/is my problem. This has a lot to do with expectations. I take more responsibility for my needs and make requests for them. I don't demand.

As for the 'shirt' incident, that was fueled by quite a bit of rage, and triggers beyond belief. I allowed resentment to build, and the shirt paid dearly.

It seems to me that there's a paradigm difference between an untidy house and an untended child.

An untidy house may well matter a lot to one partner, but failure to tidy the house for a while is a nuisance, not a catastrophe.

However, care of a child is critical. Providing a consistent and reliable environment is important - how many kids are affected for the rest of their lives by even a short period of chaos and inattention? So using them in any way to leverage a spouse does not seem acceptable to me.

POJA says, I think, that unless a decision can be reached that both spouses agree to enthusiastically, then no decision should be made? In theory, wouldn't this mean that SL, upon stating her problem and asking for brainstormed solutions, and getting no response, should stop doing the things that she was asking for help on? Or would she continue to do them, but also continue stating that she still had a problem? Ot withhold other benefits?

In many examples of Buyer strategies, the assumption is that the issue is of greater importance to one spouse than to the other. If the issue is getting your child to bed - clean and fed and cared for - then that should be of high importance to both parents, and the problem should really be to do with division of labour. But if one spouse doesn't really care about whether their child is looked after sensibly - and knows that their partner wouldn't dream of letting the child suffer anyway - then I can't see that the more responsible parent has much leverage, except to withhold other benefits such as cooking and SF.


I suspect that, for many couples, the arrival of children is the first time when they really encounter a need for help from their partner. Up till then, the burden of household management has been easily within the capabilities of two people, and anything that didn't get done was just a nuisance. With the arrival of a child, there is suddenly a huge burden to carry, and suddenly most of the new responsibilities are critical. You can get by without vacuuming the carpet for a month, but you can't get by without feeding the baby and changing his nappies/diapers for four weeks.

Until that point, the need for better tools may not have been apparent.

TA

That is a thoughtful request...and it's only the FIRST step towards negotiation.




As do I. Renter's mindset is not easy to overcome. I saw that in action with myself yesterday, actually.



I am fully convinced that you of all people have what it takes to become a Buyer.



Caught up in wanting the PAYOFF that comes with being a Buyer right away, too.



I totally agree.



You would choose to do it (as would I) because you would rather pay the consequence yourself than have your son pay it. So would I. But that isn't a long-term solution.

And there is a possibility that PWC (what does that stand for anyway? I've often wondered) might not EVER become a Buyer, but the only way to really know that is by removing any all obstacles from your end and allowing him to make that choice for himself.


This would be point at which a lot of Renters would decide that he was just selfish and didn't care about his son.

If you decide to approach him about this issue again, I would do it at some time other than bath time.

And I would study the heck out of The Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation before I proceeded.

In this instance, I would pay particular attention to Guideline 2: Identifying the problem from both perspectives.



If he is willing to discuss the issue, you can try to gain an understanding of WHY he is unwilling or reluctant. Once you have uncovered the root of that, you will be better equipped to brainstorm solutions.

I agree. I am not suggesting that no one take care of the child or that neglecting a child is not worse than neglecting housework.



It was merely an illustration. If you would find it more helpful to use some other issue to illustrate, I would be glad to do so.



My...you ARE a literal person. I currently hold the title of Little Ms. Literal. You're not trying to steal my crown are you TA??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I could pose the question to Dr. Harley himself, but logically she should not stop providing care for her child.

I presume that Dr. Harley is asserting that sacrifice should only be used as a temporary solution until a permenent solution that satisfies both spouses is reached.



I see what you are saying, but I'm not going to discuss what I call "Plan Non-Cooperation" as a method to manage resentment unless all other options have been exhausted because a lot of situations, all other options have NOT even been explored.

Froz,

I was pretty much with you until


I do not see how one person moving to a buyer state would necessarily entice a freeloader to stop being a freeloader.

I do whole heartedly agree that if you are not a buyer you should make an effort to become one.

Not in an effort to get your spouse to not be a freeloader but to be a better spouse.


By definition the only time a freeloader doesn't sacrafice is when they get their way. This can absolutely happen if you do whole heartedly agree with them. So yes you can show them the win with no sacrafice if you give them their way because you agree.

So I want a black car and my wife wants a white car. I am a freeloader. The only way I am not sacraficing is if I get my black car. Grey means I lose, white I lose etc. We now have no car ours is dead and I want black. We can't wait to buy a car ours is dead. My renter/owner wife has two choices get black or never hear the end of it. Soooo now you tell me the Freeloader why I should take anything less then black.

I can tell you it will all lead back to one thing. I want black. WE never agree. You always get your way.

The end goal should be to be a better spouse without any EXPECTATION that our spouse will change. If they do all the better.