It just occurred to me:

The decision to not have an A isn't nearly as difficult as the decision TO step out on your family.

Why I do I feel like I'm being gaslighted right now?

yes it's selfish ... no denial there

yes nothing or nobody made him/her do it beyond they're control ... but most definitely the ability to form clear thought and choose the right thing is impaired ... call it whatever you want

The thing is, very few WS's will say any of this. Instead, they turn it around and make it someone else's (usually the BS's) fault. "Fog" refers to the twisted lack of logic that prevents the WS from even believing any of the above which are probably closer to the truth. In order to rationalize their twisted thoughts regarding the actual affair, they distort everything so that their entire reality is clouded. Because it follows no pattern or logic, and because it's so far from the truth, a BS can't possibly make sense of it.

Overused? Perhaps, but this is a forum on infidelity populated mostly by BS's looking to find help and answers.

This is actually pointed out ALOT on these boards, too. Again, the fog is a VISUAL, if you will, of what it may look like inside the waywards mind.

I always believed that my FWH had in within his faculties to make the RIGHT decision; he chose otherwise. he CHOSE it, most definitely. No outside source MADE him boff another woman. No outside source made him abandon his child, wife, dogs, home,etc. He did it all on his own, with full knowledge that we could divorce over it.

I think he lacked the experience to KNOW what divorce would be like. When he was introduced to Plan B, he got a taste, and that uninformed mess of a brain that he had, became duly informed. Financially, WE would both suffer a great deal, our son was an emotional mess (can we say anger?), my family was ANGRY AS H3LL AT HIM, even the dogs were a bit whacky.

Maybe it's that the WS really has no idea what they are in for, so they choose what FEELS right/good. When they are given a dose of reality from BOTH sides, the OP and the BS, they probably experience a bit of a bubble burst, and WHACK!! get slapped with the REALITY of the WHOLE situation. Before that, they are probably thinking with their lower faculties. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Oh but there are secret and hidden stimuli ... if you buy into the other concepts on here of EN and LB

Specifically in my M, over time the EN were not being met (by either of us) and LB were increasing (by both of us) ... the things that we used to do for each other before our M and that led us to fall in love and decide to marry ... along comes OW and begins meeting those EN ... there are physics involved ... real chemical reactions in the brain and body

The wedding ceremony doesn't cause that shift in physics ... but life can ... be it kids, finances, work, etc. or just sheer laziness and lack of attention to each other EN

I understand from the BS view this all sounds like excuse and deflection ... for me it is about understanding my own sitch and not so much the "how did I decide to cross that line" (and yes it is a decision ... and a very selfish one at that) but more about "what are the things I need to do to prevent myself from going there again" ... just saying "I won't cheat" obviously isn't enough for me

BTW, many of the people using the phrases that we are speaking of, on these boards, are BS, not WS.

These are terms that people came up with to DESCRIBE the behavior; sometimes to help the BS grasp that it's not ABOUT THEM, and then the BS can FIGHT their WS's bullsh!t, and maintain some sanity.

yes it's selfish ... no denial there

yes nothing or nobody made him/her do it beyond they're control ... but most definitely the ability to form clear thought and choose the right thing is impaired ... call it whatever you want [/quote]

I do not believe that either, their thought process works well enough to come up with lies to tell the BS so they can be with their OP. Their thought process works well enough to come up with these crazy things, their thought process works well enough for them to go to work every day. I could keep going but I do not believe the crap about the "fog". It is an excuse and that is all it is.

As an aside,
Not everyone can even agree that there are such things as EA's.
Or what constitutes / rises to the level of one.
For what its worth.

Next:


Indeed,
as it concerns this FOG focus,
it is usually the BS grabbing hold of and clinging to this term.
IMO its a way to play word games with yourself.

After all,
if it was "the Fog" ....its a way to have something else out there to blame.
You know once you calm down and realize it wasn't the OP.

That way it leaves an out for the BS to still be able to get over the Huge resenment towards their own WS, since it wasn't my WS it was the Fog.

Guess I've just grown weary of reading of every thought, deed, word or Action be dismissed as "the fog".

And I mean I've seen it run the gambit in my years here.
Come on,
it can't all be that ......yet its there as the reason on thread after thread after thread.

However,
Just can't be that simple cause the sun does come out at least once a day. That's gotta burn off some of it right?

top rope,

I get what you are saying, and agree. I NEVER took the terms as a way to excuse my own WS's selfish, horrendous behavior; for me, it just described the behavior and gave me an idea of how to counter it. I still struggle with this, in recovery.

I do, to some extent, feel that the WS should be bending over BACKWARD to make up for the malicious treatment of their spouse, family and friends during their A. That's just not always the case, initially. Such is REALITY.

But being a jacka$$ to your FWS, in return, won't get you a recovered M. It will get you more of the same (fog, babble, selfishness, callousness, etc. ).

I understand FULLY Krazy's rant; I think all BS's do.

I don't think BS's are saying it was "the fog" rather than the WS. It was definitely the WS. But the act of having an affair, and all the lies and other actions surrounding it are just so illogical and twisted, it is incomprehensible for a clear thinking individual to even begin to make sense of it, to understand how something so horrible happened to them. Just break it down into each and every thing that happened during the course of the affair that brought you to this board. It's complete and utter nonsense. No rational human would do these things. And these WS's are not strangers - they have been our partners in life for years, sometimes decades. Yet they still do these things, sometime right out of the blue.

It's not an excuse. It's not something to blame. It's merely a descriptive phrase to help BS's have an idea of how their formerly loving spouses have become cheating, lie-spewing, selfish WS's. Because the patterns the WS's are so similar and repeated over and over again in all of threads here. If you didn't know better, you would think they all attended the same seminar. They even tell the same lies! It's uncanny!

My dear husband described it like this AFTER everything was over and we reconciled:

1. PM, it was like I was in a trance, like everything was unreal." (the fog)

2. I KNEW what I was doing and the choices I was making were wrong but I liked the way it made me feel. (sounds like entitlement to me)

3. But once I did it, I couldn't stop. (sounds like an addiction to me)

4. It's like some force took over my life. (the powers of darkness QUICKLY step in at the slightest crack)

My FWH did not know about MB or "the fog". So fog, smog... It JUST a tool to DESCRIBE something intangible.

It's not an excuse. It's not something to blame. It's merely a descriptive phrase to help BS's have an idea of how their formerly loving spouses have become cheating, lie-spewing, selfish WS's. Because the patterns the WS's are so similar and repeated over and over again in all of threads here. If you didn't know better, you would think they all attended the same seminar. They even tell the same lies! It's uncanny! [/quote]

I still say it is a bunch of crap to cover up their A.

I'm reminded of something George Carlin once said.

"You're not meeting my needs!"

"Then get rid of some of your f_cking needs!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You know, recovery is a TEAM effort...It certainly takes the WS being able to own their crap, but it also takes a BS that is willing to forgive IF the marriage is to be recovered...I don't know how your recovery is going Still Crazy, but I can tell you this: If Mr. W would have said things like the above to me, our recovery would not have gone as smoothly as it has...Just like if I continued to blame him for my affair it wouldn't have worked...I believe recovery takes empathy from both sides, and that must be done in tandem or the whole process is just a giant waste of time...

Mrs. W

Whatever. Your opinion. Not mine .

Mrs. Wondering,

I agree, recovery is a team effort. The BS must be willing to forgive a remorseful WS.

However, IMO, uttering anything remotely resembling, "I don't know what came over me" or "It was like I couldn't stop" is a sign of either:

1. They are fooling themselves to be able to handle their guilt.

2. They are lying.

Either way, the WS is being dishonest...either with themselves or the BS, or both.

Hardly deserving of empathy or forgiveness.

I hear ya Krazy...I believe that we are on the same page..."Fog" should NEVER be used as an excuse for destructive and horrible choices...Fog is a description of a state of being that encompasses many of the atrocious behaviors displayed by an active WS...I just happen to know that "fogginess" exists, as I have, sadly, been there...NOT an excuse, just a statement of FACT...The brain does some really bizarre stuff when your choices have put you in a state of turmoil and conflict...

Mrs. W

Empathy is given. It's a personal thing to place oneself in anothers shoes. IMO, it is not something a person earns.

Speaking for our situation, I WITNESSED Mrs. W inability to NOT stop...I WITNESSED the withdrawal from reality. She didn't have to use it for an excuse...I SAW IT. The "fog" happened.

I happend to have snooped more than some and got first hand data to assist me with my observation and conclusion. Didn't excuse it...just enabled me to understand and move forward.

The foremost reason my wife got my empathy in recovery was because I KNOW I am not and was not impervious to making the same grave error she did.



Krazy...are you now or where you then and always impervious to making the same immoral choices???

Whatever you want to call it..."getting your rocks off", the FOG or whatever...what shields or shielded you from making that same choice and ending up in the same mess?

Mr. Wondering

First of all, who is THEIR, in the above sentence? The WS or the BS?

Here's where I think this WHOLE thread has gone off course. The phrases the Krazy mentioned, are those coined by BS's to describe the behavior of their WS's. I don't see ANY WS's on these boards using these phrases to EXCUSE themselves or somehow cover up their A's.

I sense a great deal of hostility on this subject.

When I came here, it was QUITE helpful to be made aware that my WS, most likely, was going to ACT LIKE a drug addict. It has been true. I saw it first hand. Everything else, outside of what he was FEELING, was denied importance in his life.

I just don't understand why this descriptive phrases that BS's use are making y'all angry.

Excellent post Mr. W! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you SL, perhaps the folks that are angered by the term "fog" are married to F?WSs that are still blaming them for the affair-or their FWS is still saying things like "it just happened"...I could certainly understand anger in those cases...

Mrs. W