SL, are you SURE there is NC???

This SCREAMS of contact to me...my FWH did this EXACT SAME THING during the false recovery.

Your H's actions, including the shirt, and this...are screaming out FOGGY WAYWARD to me.

Remember, waywards could not care less about your pain.

A husband trying to repair his M would care, if even a little bit.

I am sorry to say this to you...but are you SURE there is NC?????

(((SL)))

I hope you had a nice dinner with DS.

I hope you take good care of yourself tonight, and tomorrow, and Sunday.

I hope you do not beat yourself up over any of this. What's done is done.

I hope you recognize that ONE of the consequences (it sounds like) is that you have some added insight into yourself, and what your limits are.

I hope you let PWC own his reaction.

I hope that even though PWC gets to choose his reaction, you are able to learn something about him from it.

I hope you get up, brush yourself off, and keep moving...whatever direction life takes you.

I hope you know that you are amazing, and how lucky DS is to have you.

I agree with SIS on taking care of yourself and taking three, THREE days before doing anything...things usually work themselves out without YOU doing anything in three days...JUST BE...K?

(((Silent)))

Not much to add because everyone else said it so eloquently.

Still

I'm well aware that I screwed up, and i am sorry for the WAY the I conducted myself, NOT for the anger.

The shirt was DEFINITELY a gift from Aimless, as told to me BY PWC.

MF, I have no idea if there has been or is contact. I have his Cell phone records, and his passwords to accounts that I know of. I do not has his work email password. At this point, it there is contact, I don't want to continue. Maybe I'm a quitter, but I'm tired of this particular coaster. I've been thru TWO false recoveries over TWO different women.

THis set us back for sure. I plan on apologizing for the WAY in which I conducted myself, but NOT THE PAIN that his actions has caused.

Good for you.

Him keeping it was disrespectful to you.

You destroying it showed him you will not be disrespected.

It wasn't just a shirt. That is BS and I am not saying Betrayed spouse.

I don't know what you said in the email but it was warranted. My FWW kept crap around from her A and said it was no big deal. Well I kinda did the same thing and it felt great.

Our MC questioned her about it and told her that she purposely kept a Trigger around.

So you removed a trigger. Good for you.

In so many words, PWC stated in his reply that he hadn't thought about the 'origin of that article of clothin in quite some time', and he did not leave it there to show me disrespect. HE then apologized.

I apologized for how I conducted myself, but not for what I conveyed in my email or my pain/anger. THey are mine to own, and I must learn how to deal with them more costructively.

HE said 'Fair enough'.


I think this is now a dead issue, as the shirt is dead. Now, it's going to be a matter of me being more direct and honest about my feelings in the moment, not a long time later, with respect.

I'm not sorry that I cut that shirt to pieces. I don't know if I should be, but I'm not.

SL, this describes my WH exactly; not once in five years has he held or comforted me when I've cried or expressed pain. He stares blankly, sometimes coldly, just as you describe.

It's a large factor in what brought me to start divorce proceedings.

In the couples counselling that H arranged in something of a panic, the counsellor has pushed him hard on this, and what she's revealing is the depth of his anger at women in general. She's picked up very accurately his enmity towards strong women (including her).

It's been a relief to have a neutral third party notice and highlight all the moments when he's aggressive and hostile towards me, and tell him firmly that his behaviour is hurtful.

Like yours, my WH had multiple As (rather more than yours, I think, and with prostitutes thrown in).

I'm wondering if your WH is actually fearful and resentful of you?

TA

Hiya SL,

I am sooooooo proud of you!!!!!!!!!

Wanna know why?

Because I see the ways you have changed your thinking. I see you not beating yourself up for your lapse in self-control and picking yourself up and dusting yourself off and thinking about better ways to handle things in the future.

I particularly love this part...



Oh, and this part too...



You may not have executed this perfectly, but just the fact that you are aware of that speaks volumes about your growth. The fact that you are taking personal responsibility for your part in the interaction while refusing to own his part is FANTASTIC!

I'm really so proud of you for that.

P.S. I think it's just fine that you aren't grieving the loss of the shirt.

P.P.S. I really like the story BrambleRose shared with you about the necklace because it is a very relevant example of a non-destructive way to accomplish what it was you were trying to accomplish with your AO.

You shouldn't be sorry, SL. You had every right to get rid of that shirt.

That WAS incredibly disrespecful of him to keep it.

During Plan B, I got rid of just about every freaking trigger in our house. [Thankfully, he never kept anything OW gave him ~ he threw it all away...before I even knew it existed. But there were still triggers around our house for ME].

I didn't even GIVE them away, I THREW them away. I had tiptoed around this cr*p for long enough, and I finally realized that I have just as much right to live in a pain-free, trigger-free home as he does, and screw it if he didn't like it. I didn't care at that point anyways, I was in Plan B.

FWH knows I did this now, and he understands. He doesn't want me to be reminded of his A anymore than he himself wants to be reminded of it.

And let me tell you...if I ever come across anything else, I would still do the same thing.

If there are serious triggers like that, the BS and/or FWS SHOULD get rid of them. It is only doing harm to the M and recovery efforts by being constantly reminded of such a horrendous act.

It keeps us focusing on the A, and who needs that? We need to move ON, not stay wrapped up in this sick little drama.

I believe this to be true...she is strong where he is weak...POWS, I believe and it has been said that he also has a deep hatred for women...

I believe that the violence that was there at the end was a direct result of his lose of control over me...when I started standing up for myself and quit stuffing my feelings...he didn't have the ability to process my feelings much less his...

SL,

See what happens when you reach a turning point? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He s/b in greater fear than you should. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why? Because you are moving forward. Read your posts again.

One never knows what will trigger their turning point. Just know it will come and it will happen again. Your H needs to be aware of it so he CAN be there for you.

A dead shirt.... think it looks the same as a live shirt?!!!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> A shredded dead shirt looks the same also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

So don't apologize for it. Let him know that shirt upset you and if you find more of that kind of stuff, it is obvious you will get upset so what's he going to do about it.

Can tell you a story, later....about a shirt that never made it to my house. LOL!! OW's H took it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

I made him aware in my email that I will not allow any OW POS's gifts, letters, notes, emails, calls, texts, anything to exist in my HOME.

Froz, I thought about what I was going to say at dinner. DS had a good time, and I relaxed quite a bit; really examined my behavior, recognizing what was mine to own (mostly all that dang waiting to voice my anger--stoopid). I hope to avoid this situation in the future by expressing myself more freely.

This last two weeks, I've been in the midst of a pivot, and today, I snapped my heals together like a soldier doing an about face.

Next step is learning to perform the about face in one, short, swift motion. Never letting it lay in wait again.

We are in our separate corners tonight. That's okay. We are still talking, we are still communicating; no one has withdrawn completely; just enough to get our bearings and begin again.

In the past, I would have broken down during this. Right now, I feel calm, peaceful, as if some offensive smell has been irradicated from the household, and replaced with lavendar.

I need to remember this day, and follow the advice of those who have gone before me. I appreciate every NOODLE of advice given. BR, your story speaks volumes, and I have taken it to heart and committed it to memory. It's an example of how I hope to proceed in the future, now that I have a clue.

I'm sorry if I let anybody down; I was acting on pure adrenaline. I didn't follow my own advice to come here first, before doing anything drastic, but that's probably because I was not willing to stop what I was doing.

This is incredibly honest. I think you learned more about you today. Good job.

Well, at least there's that!

I KNEW what I was doing, but the rage just gave me permission to act like a jacka$$. Not good, or smart. That little devil on my shoulder won out this time. Let's hope that angel's laryngitis clears up.

stuffed anger explodes or eats you from the inside out.

you made a choice to go there. next time, you'll recognize, and I hope you will choose not to go there.

Choose to act, instead of react.

Coming out of the fog...the WS is not very in tune with their spouse's feelings.

If you spend the time to tell him calmly without angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements - he'll start to listen instead of withdrawing.

I pulled this quote from another thread because it explains so well what I am trying (and failing) to sucessfully communicate on the "How To Get Your Spouse To Become A Buyer" thread.



I read something you wrote earlier that indicated to me that you have a better understanding of this.

Your situation highlights Dr. Harley's point on the subject of sacrifice. A Renter (sacrificer) uses their Giver to sacrifice to the point of misery until they feel ENTITLED to use their Taker to make selfish demands or use AO in order to get what they want.

And as BrambleRose pointed out, when you use selfish demands as the method to try to coerce someone into giving to you, likely they won't feel very giving as a result.

I am a Recovering Renter.

I don't WANT TO BE a Renter anymore because I see it so clearly now...and dang it if I'm not having the hardest time putting it into words. Every time I try it doesn't look on the screen the way it does in my head. So very frustrating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Too bad, also, because it's really quite brilliant in there.

Anyway...

For so long, I DID use sacrifice as currency. I refused to believe that I was part of the problem. After all, that was impossible! How could I possibly be part of the problem when I was the "good and noble" spouse who had sacrificed and sacrificed without getting anything in return.

Yeah...woe is me.

And woe WAS me!

But obviously I had a hand in that, too. If I hadn't made the choice to do all that sacrificing, perhaps I wouldn't be so miserable. Patriot didn't make me do that.

I viewed him as selfish because he didn't sacrifice willingly. And when he did sacrifice, it didn't make a deposit for me because he wasn't willing and enthusiastic.

Do you see the twisted logic there? It's a trap! It's "sacrifice to prove your love for me and after you're done I won't accept it as loving because it WAS a sacrifice."

A Freeloader isn't stupid. They can see that there isn't any gain in that for them. So they just let the Renter keep on sacrificing.

And I'm thoroughly convinced now that the ONLY road to long-term marital satisfaction is to adopt the BUYER/BUYER strategy. And that can't happen when you're dealing with a Renter.

You know why they call them Renters? Because obviously they don't plan to stick around forever because if SOMEONE in the marriage is sacrificing, someone is gonna feel as though they got the short end of the stick sooner or later.

A Renter's approach to conflict resolution (sacrifice) might end the conflict right now...and if you don't expect to stick around forever then short-term "patch it up with bubble gum" solutions will suffice.

But in a marriage, that bubble gum isn't gonna hold out forever. And when it just won't do the trick anymore...that marriage has big-time problems. Problems that COULD have been resolved permanently had both spouses taken responsibility for their own satisfaction.

A Renter makes it very difficult for a Freeloader to become a Buyer because when the Renter gets tired of sacrificing, they will make the demand that the Freeloader also sacrifice. If the Renter does manage to successfully convince the Freeloader to sacrifice, it makes the situation even worse because then the Freeloader feels even more entitled to Freeload.

And I have a theory.

It appears to me that the distance from Freeloader to Buyer is much, much shorter than the distance from Renter to Buyer. A Freeloader already is HALF BUYER because they aren't willing to sacrifice.

While a Renter is somewhat more difficult to convert to Buyer because in order to accomplish becoming a BUYER they must overcome the two perceptions that their entire view of relationships is built on. That:

1.) Sacrifice = love.
2.) Not sacrificing = selfish.

Those are very difficult perceptions to overcome.

And it's pretty difficult to convince your Freeloader to use POJA if every time they DO try to use it, their Renter Spouse is either angry with them for not sacrificing or DJ'ing them to pieces by considering them selfish for not being willing and enthusiastic about sacrificing.

I keep seeing this over and over again. And when it happens, I see the Renter Spouses coming here and posting about how their Freeloader refuses to use POJA.

And if you try to tell the Renter Spouse they are playing a role in it, they get mmmmmaaaaaaaadddddddd. They can't BELIEVE you have the audacity to tell them they are part of the problem. THEY are not the problem! They are the good and noble spouse, while their Freeloader is being selfish and TAKING!

And you know what happens then? The Renter Spouse comes back later and posts again about how miserable they are and what martyrs they are for having to deal with such a Freeloader for a spouse. And they want advice...advice they often don't take. I'm seriously wondering (okay, I'll be honest - I'm pretty convinced) that they don't REALLY want advice. What they seem to want is for all the other Renters to give them Renter Kudos' for all the sacrificing they've done. They want ADMIRATION for it! They want the other Renters to pat them on the back and tell them how "noble" they are. That's pretty valuable currency in Renterland.

I don't want to live in Renterland anymore. I'd much prefer to trade "noble" for "satisfying" and "rewarding".

How about you?


Okay, speech over. Darn that was incoherently babbly of me. I hope that made some sort of sense to someone besides myself. I need to force myself to go to bed, but my brain is racing 100 mph.

Night, SL.

SL,

Sorry I wasn't here last night to lend an ear and some support,,,,but it 'sounds' like there was a lot here for you!

Sweetie, I gotta tell you I am not surprised at what happened. Obviously though what I've read, you have worked through a lot of it already,,and very quickly I might add.

You see your actions for what they were - Jusified feelings of pain & hurt due to PWC's actions but an AO in 'how' you reacted.

The shirt was a catalyst to your recent feelings and situation. It is what it is at this point. The important thing now is what you do moving foward.

You are going to be just fine,,,,{{SL}}

sl,

i can sure relate.
bf and i just broke up over the summer after over a year together. there were many false hopes of getting back together up until a little over a month ago.

there were things in our R that bothered me BUT i never addressed them. i have this fear that if i speak up to people they will leave me. (child hood issue) and once i loved him completely i did not want to lose him. so when boundaries of mine got crossed i never said anything and when i did he made me feel so guilty about it that i quickly apologized.

well, i let this build up and one thing about a month and a half ago set me off but good. and all that resentment and anger came to the surface and i let him have it,oh, probably for about a week! then of course, being backed into a corner he retaliated and it got ugly. i have since apologized for being reactionary and for letting things build up. i did NOT say that the things i was angry about were not things i should not have been angry about because they were things i should be angry about. but i did apologize for how i addressed them.

i am still healing from this break up and have chosen not to talk to him or except contact from him at this time. maybe in the future i can, but not right now. i have to protect my heart.

but, what i am saying is, i understand exactly what you did and why you did it. i have learned that in the future i am going to address things as they come up and not worry if it makes the other person go away. if they do, than they are selfish and i don't want them in my life anyway. i can't give and give to someone and get lose myself in the process anymore. i will NOT walk on eggshells. that is not how it is supposed to be.

i give you a lot of credit. i don't post to you much but i have read a lot of you recovery story and you have lasted a lot longer than i could have. something has got to give with him pretty soon or i am afraid you are going to have a very empty love bank and a very full resentment bank.

mlhb