I know I've said this before...but damn Froz...I just picked my jaw up off the table!! You have GROWN!!! I can't help the big giant smile on my face. You have so got it. I think I'm gonna be learning from you now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are 100% correct. Renter spouses run rampant on this board and throw self-righteous temper tantrums when challenged.

SL - your homework is to read that post at least 5 times! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You can not continue to approach your husband as a WS. Is he still in contact? We don't know. But one way to find out, is to change the dance. His reaction will be pretty telling. As long as you are a renter, you enable his freeloading - and that gets neither of you the marriage you want.

The fact that he was not defensive and angry over the shirt and instead apologized, tells me he is just rather self absorbed and feeling sorry for himself.

When you make selfish demands and angry outbursts, you justify -enable- his withdrawal and freeloading.

SL's incident is to be expected. All that pent up anger was going to come out sooner or later.

Actually, it was good in that it let the WS (Xws?) know in no uncertain terms what 1 of your boundaries are. Now what are the other boundaries you have? These are things you need to acknowledge. They are already in place.

The place where caution is needed is to make sure these outbursts are not dangerous. Ripping up a shirt is a sign of anger so you need to find a way to communicate when you are upset.

For my then Xws & I, it was the words: 'can I ask you a question'? I used that phrase even when I didn't have an A related question, so he never really knew what was coming but it allowed me to capture his attention 1st in a calm manner, then I could put my thoughts in a question form which in turn helped him digest it better. This helped his response attitude and time.

Initially he would ignore me, then I would withdraw and walk away. I did not push my point. I had other ways to vent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The reason why this worked is that the WS in him was still active in the sense he felt he needed control over me. By my NOT telling him everything until he was in a receptive mood, then he didn't have that control and boy..... was that yanking his chain.

So HE learned to be receptive. My requirements for any conversation was he be receptive (not agree with everything, just hear me out without anger or frustration) and with a good attitude. In turn, I would listen to his reply or understand if I needed to come back at a more convenient time.

In time this showed the Xws that we had learned to live without him..... HE taught us that. As a result, he didn't have the control he craved but the rules of our home required we treat each other with respect and NO WS like attitudes.

This meant each time his WS attitude came out, out came my plan B. Yep..... it lasted a few years AFTER the A ended. That's one reason why recovery takes time. There is an adjustment period on both sides.

Get with Steve for a recovery plan.

L.

Wowzer's Froz!

I'd say that post was SPOT ON! No rambling there; it made perfect sense.

I'm working toward BUYER mode. I am definitely the renter and he is definitely the freeloader. That's okay. Knowing what your dealing with is half the solution.

BR, I'll read and read and read.

I don't believe he is in contact; self-absorbed = yes.

I must learn how to ask for what I need and DO what I need in order to feel satisfied. Even if the needs I ask for aren't met, it's my responsiblity to ASK for that. It's my responsibility to handle my resultant anger and voice it appropriately IN THE MOMENT.

Oh, that whole email was done using JUSTIFICATION (like a WS mindset, eh ). I can't say that I'm at the point where that shirt wouldn't still be cut to pieces, but the AO and DJ's wouldn't have happened.

My PLAN is to read up some more, and really begin implementing the rules. I know it can work. I know we can be better, and I know that I need to change regardless of my situation.

Orchid, thanks for the post

I have talked to Jennifer on three ocassions and have been following her advice.

The advice was meant to help DRAW him in, and has not worked, as of yet.

I'm almost at my end, here, and I have to find a clear way to convey that with PWC. I have already stated that I will not live in a loveless marriage, that I will withdraw if my needs continually go unfulfilled. They have and now I'm losing my will to love him truly and fully.

I'm not enthusiastic about this marriage as it is. Some things are going to have to change. I'm not sure what, but I plan on talking with him about it. I've been thinking about it all morning. How really DONE I am with this approach.

I am willing to coach with the Harley's, but not my FWH. I can plan all I want with them, but if he's not on board and not 'coming around', there's no amount of work I can do until he makes a decision to take this leap with me.

That will be step one.

I can't know what he holds inside his head, if he feels better, safer, stronger. He does not convey that, he is cagey. I'm just not interested in fostering this behavior in him by continuing to give to him, and be willing to TAKE nothing or receive nothing. It's just not working.

(((SL)))

Lots of good help for you here. Hang in there.

Hey Sl, I just wanted to thank you for the thread...there has been a ton of useful info posted here and I wanted you to know that you ARE helping OP sharing your strength, hope, and experience!

THank YOU!

Frozen...AMAZING you were right on with your post...no babble there!!!! Thank you.

Sl, I agree with Striven. And I'll keep you and your H in my thoughts and prayers.

I haven't read all your thread so forgive me for asking if you've already posted...Are you sure your H is NOT trying at all? Could it be you are so hurt/disappointed, etc. that you can't SEE it? One thing LA has said to me, LOOK FOR ANY CHANGE, NOTICE ALL. My WH is making progress, SLOWLY (to slow for me but hey progress.) He is NOT necessarily doing it the way I like/want/need BUT he is making changes that before LA's intervention I probably would have taken for granted or not even noticed.

And I know it was not the MB way...sorry...I'm glad you were able to get rid of a trigger, I'm sorry it was anger boiling over tho. There really is a peace that comes from handling a situation without the anger and you feel such joy in being able to handle a hostile situation without anger, but I do feel the anger at times too.

(((take care)))

Well, I had a very long conversation with PWC, and it seems he just can't do what he doesn't believe in, and he does not believe in us. I have asked him to decide if he wants to recover; all indications point to no. If the answer is no, I will not continue; I will be going back to the darkness of Plan B, more likely to be used for me to detach and prepare for divorce.

I will not be filing, as I do not want this, in any way.

I HAVE noticed his changes (and have enumerated them to hiim, and thanked him many times over), but it has been CLEAR since day one that he has not been interested in giving me my top EN's, nor really contributing to the M until he FELT it. According to his explanations, the conclusion I draw is he does not believe in love, not NON ROMANTIC love. HE does not believe we can get back what was lost, and has said that he has been unhappy since BEFORE we got married.

I'm done. I cry for my son, but can only control what I do. I will not continue in this feudal arrangement.

I'm sorry for disappointing so many hear, but this should teach so many people how NOT to handle ending Plan B. NEVER SETTLE. It's not worth the pain to try to recover with a non remorseful, non commital spouse. It won't work with only one person BELIEVING in M and real love.

Good morning Sunshine! Saw you online and wanted to say hi, wishing you a blessed day!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope for a blessed day too.

I'm going out to Target in a bit to get some shelves for my bedroom. I sewed two curtain panels for my room, one left to go, and I am excited to get the painting done soon. It will be a boudoire soon enough and I'm looking forward to enjoying it.

Target always provides great retail therapy for me. Live in the moment.

I have no comment on what you said above...there aren't words, really. "Good job" is hardly appropriate, but sympathies aren't really appropriate, either.

It is what it is, and you accept that. None of it is pretty; it all sucks, but you are still here, you have grown.

And you are amazing.

Thanks Sis. I am getting ready to head out.

For me, there are very few words also. It's really just sad that we have this opportunity and he is just not open enough to see it. Unfortunately, that blurred vision could cost me and my son dearly, but I will find a way. I have no choice.

Sl,

Yes, my dear, you will find a way that is the path meant for you,,,, which is the best for you and DS.

Continue to believe in you! Keep looking up for guidance.

BTW - Love Target!

SL-
I just read all of your posts, and I just wanted to say that am sorry that it turned out the way it did.

It is too bad that when some WS's come back, when they really do not want to, and confuse the whole situation. I really feel that unless both people can talk, and work on mending the situation, it is not looking good. I went through that with my exH. He would lead me to believe that he was entertaining the idea, but in reality, he was just doing what he felt was 'right'... by putting on a show that he tried, that he WOULD have.... BUT.....

I have come to the realization also that life is so much better without the burden of guessing what is going on in another person's mind, when they cannot even TRY to communicate it. I honestly feel a lot more at peace without the whole "what is going on with him and our M" looming over me...

It is what it is. I am going to make people annoyed, but I feel that if the other person is not TRYING to regain what was once there, or the other person does not even try to satisfy any of your needs (after a significant amount of time).... then what is their purpose in your life? Sometimes it is GOOD to reevaluate the people in your life, and see WHO SHOULD be in it.

You gave it your all, you know that you did. If you DO get a D (which who knows yet, the pages are still unfolding) you will always know that YOU cared, YOU gave it your all, YOU did what you should do to recover your M. You can always remember that.

I wish you the best, and I just wanted to tell you that you are a remarkable, strong woman! And to say that it is understandable about the shirt... If he could not even bother to remember that it hurt you... it was just a blatant act of rudeness.

I will say that I know several couples that are happy together, and sure, they do not always get along, but the difference is that they BOTH want to get along, and they BOTH care about each other. There is NOTHING wrong about wanting that out of a R. It IS NOT A MYTH!!!!

Again, I wish you well, and I hope that you stay strong!!!! You have a lot of people here that are pulling for YOU... NOT just your M!!!

No words, SL. Just thoughts and prayers and virtual hugs.

sl ~ why are you giving up? Maybe you should not have settled. Coulda woulda shoulda. Lets deal with where you are now.

First of all - I hope you are posting on the Recovery board. Seeking advice and support from BS still in the throes of plan A and plan B is nice if you just want validation, but what you need is a swift kick in the pants.

Recovery is harder than Plan A or B on the BS. Your husband is not the first WS to act like this.


You really can't expect him to be meeting your needs right now. One of the biggest mistakes the BS makes is thinking that their WS is going to come home and start delivering on ENs.

So my question is...are you meeting HIS ENs?

Do you have confirmation from him about what he needs? Do you have his confirmation that you are on target to meet his needs?

I suspect not - as communication is a big problem in your marriage. If you are sitting around waiting for that big EN pay off from him and resentful of his lack of enthusiasm for the marriage...its going to come out in your tone and your attitude with him. It's going to come out in shredded shirts.

Of course he is not going to feel like meeting your needs.

I've learned the hard way, that if I am unhappy with what my husband is doing for me, I need to address my own behavior. I take a look at how I am doing in meeting HIS needs, and step it up. A few days of this is all I need to get him turned around. I've seen him do the same for me also.

You do realize that, he is watching you, feeling miserable, and thinking to himself, is this a life sentence?

I know he OWES you. But right now, your behaviour simply reinforces his foggy distorted perception of marriage and happiness. He doesn't believe he can be happy with an angry sulking woman. (Yes, I know you arent angry and sulky all the time, but I bet you do have a bad attitude that shows more than you know).

It is going to take you more than a couple of days to show him a changed SL - but your behavior can change HIS feelings - if he is in NC. Since we don't know that he is, for now, assume he is not.

I have no idea what to do. I really don't want to deal with THIS anymore.

We were up pretty late talking Saturday night (Sunday morning), and then I got no more sleep (about 1 hour total).

I had decided that I was going out to Target yesterday to pick up some things for the house and my room. I wasn't planning on waiting for PWC to wake up, so I took a shower and got ready. By the time I was ready, PWC was up, and asked me if I minded that he go with us. I said ok, no problem.

We went to Target, all hunky dory, like the words that were spoken the night before were a dream (nightmare); and he's pretty talkative with me, talking about music and general stuff. After Target he asks me if I want steak for dinner (we were getting very close to our local butcher shop). I said sure, thinking how odd this all is in my head.

I was working on my bedroom, hanging the curtains that I sewed, sanding some spots on the walls that needed corrective mudding; we got to talking about crown molding. HE hinted at getting it done. Soooo, we went out to Lowe's and got some molding, came home and installed it, then had a lovely steak dinner, mostly prepared by him; then we all sat down and watched "Ratatouille" together.

I just don't understand. I don't want this anymore. What do I do? I don't want this kind of NON recovery, where I KNOW that he doesn't WANT it, so he makes no REAL efforts, but when the [censored] hits the fan, he reacts for a day.

I want to tell him to leave; I can't do this with someone who claims that it was 'right, well not right but right for me' (his words) to have the A's.

Silent:

[email]D@mn.[/email]

Sounds like a weekend at the LG household.

Somedays it just doesn't go as it should.

Then, you let him know that it unacceptable.

He works on the moulding and dinner.

And that's ONE day.

That's ONE day closer.

Unacceptable behavior = Talking about it.

Talking about it = Changes

Changes = something better?

To paraphase BR: "Pain is a given, misery is optional"

Recovery is TOUGHER than ending the A.

Really it is.

Everything that was wrong in the M before the A's needs to be reconciled and a NEW way created.

You and PWC are still sorting this out.

{{{SL}}}

LG

So, I should just wait and see? I'm really asking. I don't know what to do. I ASSUMED that he would choose to pack up and leave again. I just don't get it.

How are we going to recover? I'm trying to find a new way. How do you find that with someone who claims that they are not interested?

He's not IN an A, he's not IN contact with anyone.

Does this really remind you of things that you said, LG?

HE SAYS terrible things, then he helps with the moulding and cooks me dinner, and everything feels status quo. I'm so confused by this.

SL,

I had something to tell you, but after reading BR's post, I'm having second thoughts about leading you down the wrong path because I think maybe you and I are pretty much at very similar places in our Recoveries.

As far as his behavior being confusing...I can offer you an outsider's perspective. Of course it *could* be a DJ, but let's call it a guess, shall we?

Possibly he sees or senses the changes you are making and that you have raised the bar somewhat regarding what you are willing/not willing to accept.

Maybe his earlier stance (that he wasn't willing to try) was sort of a scare tactic to try to get you to move your boundary.

It has the feel of a power play and manipulation to me.