Silent:

He has LOST everything.

His A partner
His second A partner
His good name.
Many other things I can imagine.

And what does he have now?

HE's not sure yet.

Right?

Consistency? On YOUR Part?


Yes, he says TERRIBLE things.

Did YOU?

Do you feel you understand him better?

No.

So talk some more.

Even if you have to create a crisis to make it happen.

Destroying the shirt = crisis.

Crisis = Means PWC starts to talk.

"OOOPS" "Pushed S/L too far with that."

So, lets start working on this.

Stop accepting unacceptable behavior and start holding him up to his side of the bargain.

And never threaten divorce. Cause you are unwilling to do it.

But you are willing to just do about everthing less than Plan D. And HE can sense that as well.

Working for RECOVERY.

Remember that.

It's MORE difficult.

LG

So my question is...are you meeting HIS ENs?

Do you have confirmation from him about what he needs? Do you have his confirmation that you are on target to meet his needs?


This is where I'm so frustrated. I have tried to guess on his EN's and fill them. I have asked about WHAT they are and tried to fill them. I'm not making excuses for my behavior with the shirt. Not at all. I'm trying to figure out what I can do for him to help him feel more comfortable with his decision to come home.

For instance, we had a conversation a while back, and part of what he said about ME is that he is not attracted to me. I asked in what ways, but he could not bring himself to say much beyond how he was physically unattracted to me, among OTHER things. So, I set about making changes to become more attractive physically, because that was all I had to go on.

In our conversation the other night, he said that he saw that I was making changes, but I wasn't accurate with some of them, like him not being attracted to me. HE said losing weight was good, but not on the mark with what he MEANT. I told him that I can't guess what he meant. The only thing that he mentioned, when I asked for specificity was weight.

I have done what I can, without having any quidance from him. He pulls away when I touch him--so should I assume affection is not a top EN? He will not have anything close to or in the realm of sex or something related to SF with me, so I can only surmise that SF is not one of his top EN's right now. ADMIRATION has been one that I have been chipping away at. I have sent him emails telling him that I recognized he did this or that; I have sent him treats at work, with notes telling him that I appreciate this or that. I've sent him letters, telling him I love him, and enumerating why.

Yes, I'm sure my frustration does shine through sometimes, and I have taken measures to work on that.

No, I have not posted on the recovery board. I have read there. Since most of my threads were here, I just thought it better to keep it on GQII. I certainly can post there.

Froz, I'm very muddled and confused right now, so your instinct may be dead on [email]b@lls[/email] accurate.

I agree with BR, that I can only change me. Anything I have read says that.



In our conversation, I asked him if he was willing to tell me something, even one thing, that he wants from me. To give me a roadmap, or even just one turn on the roadmap. I asked him to be critical of me, and tell me what he believes needs to change.

I have been very honest in my postings, I have held nothing back with you guys. I have taken your advice and made some MAJOR changes. I have slipped and fallen backwards. I know that I will always have work to do.

A swift kick in the pants is fine. I get them a lot these days.

LG, I did say terrible things in my email, which I quickly apologized for. I did tell him that there was truth in what I wrote, but I handled it very poorly and wanted to talk about it. When we talked, face to face, I said nothing mean, nasty or otherwise.

I KNOW I was wrong. I get that.

I made it clear that I want a recovered, happy, safe marriage with him; that I do not want a D.

You are right, this is tough. Like I said, I'm confused. Just as PWC has never done this (recovery) neither have I, so I'm learning as I go, and I WILL make mistakes.

The angry outburst taught me a valuable lesson, to talk about what's in my head, for he will not know unless I do, and to ask for what I need.

I set about doing that Saturday evening, and came out even more confused than going in.

I also think that he wants more recreational companionship. I have asked him what he likes to do. He doesn't respond, except to say he doesn't want to spend time with me. I find it odd, because we spent the whole day together yesterday; he chose to.

SIL,

You posted on my thread on Friday and mentioned this shirt. I hope my thread did not have anything to do with your outburst.

It seems we both need to learn how to not be renters. We will try together and wish each other luck.

S_C

Just to let you know i would have done the same thing you did and by what everyone is saying it definitely is the WRONG thing to do.

Lots of HARD work some days i think i don't want to do it anymore and then others i think it is so worth fighting for still.

This was a great weekend so i am on the good side today.

((((SIL))))

Make that three of us.

Still Crazy, this would have happened regardless of what I posted on your thread. I was hitting the anger wall, it just happened to be a subject that came up here.

I am responsible for my behavior. I know it was wrong. I know that I did exactly what he expected I would do, as this has been our pattern for some time. The pattern won't change until I do.

SL ~ your husband isn't making sense because HE is still out of control and depressed. He probably doesn't know what he wants and I bet he is in his own sick way trying to protect you from being hurt again.

What did you do together when you got married? Don't sit around waiting for him to make suggestions, just make the plans and encourage him to join you.

Get on with your life. Leave the door open for him to join you and welcome him when he steps through - like yesterday when you went shopping.

Sometimes, you have to ignore what he says and watch what he does. Saying: "I don't want to spend time with you" may just mean, "I can't think of anything I want to do with you".

He's not feeling inspired.

Its not fair or right that he sit on his [censored] letting you do all the heavy lifting. But it is what it is.

Just because he is miserable, and sitting on the pity pot doesn't mean YOU have to be miserable.

Make the choice to be happy.

I bet he'll find a happy busy wife who enjoys living to be dang physically attractive.

PWC said that *I* made us OLD before we were old. HE said that we acted like some old married couple.

I asked how, but didn't get any particulars or specifics. We went out alot, spent lots of time with our friends, worked on renovating our home, had parties. We also lived the day in day out of life together. That part that nobody warns you about; the minutia. I never thought we wern't living, but maybe he did, and was afraid to tell me.

I still have no idea how to remedy this without him telling me more about the 'symptoms' and not being general. Maybe his fear is keeping him from being totally open and honest. He was visibly shaking during the conversation.

It was a pretty calm conversation for the subject matter. I asked a lot of him that evening.

What I learned is that he does not feel any sort of affection toward me; he does not want to spend time with me; he is not attracted to me; he seems angry with me; he's seen my changes, but they don't change how he feels toward me. He does not believe in US, or ME.

He sounds very disillusioned.

Silent:

About this:

"I did say terrible things in my email, which I quickly apologized for. I did tell him that there was truth in what I wrote, but I handled it very poorly and wanted to talk about it. When we talked, face to face"

And then you TALKED.

Are you more confused? Yes.

Because he is stuck in the crazy house. Nothing seems "right" and until it does, you will get this lingering "fog-talk"

So after this long confusing talk, this happens:

"I also think that he wants more recreational companionship. I have asked him what he likes to do. He doesn't respond, except to say he doesn't want to spend time with me. I find it odd, because we spent the whole day together yesterday; he chose to."

Note the LAST LINE. "HE CHOSE TO"

You decided when you woke up, this in MY PLAN for today, and HE wasn't going.

And he ASKED if he could go. And you said yes.

And it turned into a really good day.

How can they get SO MANY SPIRALS on the roller-coaster? Not hills and valleys, but spirals. Where you are circling each other, but just can not overcome the centrifigal force to reach out to each other.

Until the two of you find a way. Like you did from Friday to Sunday Night. Thrown against the sides, until the two of you reached back across, and at the least, spun together.

That's how it goes.

Now start working to hold on, and stop the spinning.

What was your plan for 15 hours together THIS WEEK?

LG

I'm hearing him, BR. I concurred exactly what you posted. I don't know if that means I'm learning or growing or what.

I have to say, despite the confusion, I felt my actions yesterday were more in line with who I want to be. I really do not want to wait around for him to TELL me what he wants. I want this to be more natural.

I liked that I told him we were going to Target, and then he asked if he could come along. I was surprised that he wanted to come, and was happy to hear him ask.

I liked that he suggested we go ahead and get the moulding; I loved that he was dead set on getting it done yesterday. i loved that he pushed through after dinner and got it done. I loved that he then broke out the caulk and did the finish work. I think I will tell him that now.

LG, My lord, that was beautiful. It makes so much sense. My head is clearing quite a bit today. I have to keep pushing myself to SEE.

You are right; we were spiraling, and I reached across (the conversation) and he reached across (the whole day Sunday) and we spiraled down together.

Hmmm, with Thanksgiving upon us, there is much to do around the house. I think I will ask him to help me prep the game room, and then ask him to join me in a game of pool, for starters. We always have done well when we worked together. .

S/L:

Your H said this:

"We went out alot, spent lots of time with our friends, worked on renovating our home, had parties."

But then you guys got OLD.

No.

You had DS.

Your WHOLE WORLD changed.

But PWC? He wanted the same thing that he had.

Common. Been there, Done that. Stories about that ABOUND on this website.

You WERE taking care of DS, and PWC wanted to have FUN.

But he also wanted a part in all this, and still doesn't feel a way in.

You describe that he is real good with DS, but rarely describe fun with YOU, DS and PWC.

Because he is NOT part of the DS and S/L circle. He steps into the father role, and then he steps back, and S/L takes over.

And THAT issue just occurred to me. Please look into that.

And about this:

"Maybe his fear is keeping him from being totally open and honest. He was visibly shaking during the conversation."

What he was telling you? Don't you THINK he would have the fear to tell you this? That he doesn't realize how this CONVERSATION can change the rest of his life?

He might actually believe all the stuff he just told you. Probably not.

He doesn't sound like he trusts his own emotions right now.

We all KNOW here what the RIGHT THING for him to do is.....

Until he walks on that path, then he is confused. And his RIGHT THING might have a slightly different look than yours.

What are HIS EN's?

Whatever you THOUGHT they are, might not be. Or, you are hitting them so WELL it destroys all his reasons for stating that there is NO US.

He's holding onto the fantasy.

Yes, you HAVE work to do.

But this might be a turning point you were looking for. Good or bad.

Either way, you either walk a path with him, or without him. But you will know that better, soon.

{{{SL}}}

LG

From what he told me, I believe that PWC needs to be convinced that this is not ALL there is to us. I believe he needs more recreational companionship; to laugh and play, in order to feel happy with me. I can almost bet on it, and I'm not a betting woman. Much of what he said points to what he deems a lack of fun (real life happening all the time, with no reward).

I hear him.

He said "Just be YOU". After much talk here, and time to look at all that was said, this speaks to me. *I* was always laughing, joking, funny, FUN; no worries, even when there were worries. I worked the worries out as I lightened the mood. I WAS like a lightening bolt. THEN- my mother died. THEN, then--we had our son.

I don't know, but I changed after those things. After my mother died, I lost something of that spark--it all seemed too soon, and I felt more burden, more sadness. Life wasn't nearly as much fun. I know all of this about myself.

Now, as for including PWC in mine and son's fun--I'll work harder to make it OUR fun. We don't feel cohesive, LG, you are dead on with this. We follow rules to coparent, but we don't enjoy our lives as a collective force.

I think you are a long way from calling recovery a failure.

You need to change the filters through which you hear your husband. I think he's told you quite a bit. A visibly shaking man is terrified of going back to his 'old' marriage...but he is anything BUT indifferent.

This is your time to deliver on those promises in Plan A.

Gotcha SL.

Sort of that 'you can catch more flies with honey than something yuckier' saying (can't remember it)?

Froz,

It's vinegar--the yuckier thing.

BR, I think I'm finally hearing him. The conversation scared me, too, except I don't shake anymore, which feels like growth to me. I used to shake during every conversation.

I heard him, but filtered it WRONG. I don't want to go back either.

It's FINALLY clicking with me, how I really need to change myself. I have the knowledge, but haven't really put it to practice. I've read the books and THOUGHT about the changes, and began to make them IN MY HEAD, but not in my heart. I hear him. Some of what he said hurts quite a lot, but it is how he sees it; how he's seen it for some time.

The biggest pain is knowing that he wasn't fully happy even before we got married. That one hurts a great deal, but I hear him. I wouldn't say we were an OLD couple by any stretch of the imagination, but the roaring FIRE that we had was definitely down to a small flame--still not just embers, but not nearly as exciting.

I don't believe that the roaring flame can always be going, but I believe that we can stoke it now and then.

This is why we so often say the BS has to be EMOTIONALLY PREPARED for RECOVERY in order to lead it..when the WS comes back BROKEN...

Mimi, I can now take BOTH yours and BR's advice, eh.

I really had NO idea what this was going to be like. None whatsoever. I learn a lot by what you guys tell me, about your own recoveries, but couldn't fully grasp it until I hit that wall--the wall *I* constructed.

And, for the first time, sitting and watching PWC shake, I saw how lost he was. He's still grasping for that fantasy, and this reality is SCARY. It's a very large step to take. I've taken it, but wasn't fully committed.

I AM NOW. Thank God I hit that wall.