I am researching it currently but I do think HOW a divorce comes about is relevant.

Did you file or did he?

Did you sign off on a settlement and order of divorce or not? (there are some who forever refuse to go along with a divorce and MAKE the judge order it against their will).

I think the covenant CAN and would be restored if your husband repents and returns to his rightful wife, however, you two would have to remarry prior to "marital" relations.

I just can't see Angels playing trumpets if you follow through with your stated plans diliberately giving your body (your holy vessel) to a evil man undeserving of such sancticty and marital blessing.

Just my opinion...right now. Still thinking.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. Wonderful,

I have not had sex with my ex. What I can't do is "shut down" my feelings for him... and expect a Plan A to work. So, in my mind, I'm telling myself I'll have sex with him.

Will I really? Oh... probly not. lol

But if I tell myself I won't... I can't feel any attraction whatsoever... and my feeling attraction for him is the total key to restoration.

I recall one time when I was able to feel attraction for him... and I can recall how he "drank it in" like a man in a desert drinks water.

My love is the only thing that will release him from the bondages of his sin. So, while you say that he is evil... the odds are pretty great that he will remain evil... apart from the "kiss" of him feeling in his emotions that I still love him. And, to him, that means sexual attraction.

Now, please understand that for me the choice is to spend the rest of my life alone... or be reconciled with him.

It is better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all.

Your greater concern, imo, would to see me alone for the rest of my life (as long as he lives)... and if you felt and saw and knew that truth... perhaps you would urge me to move in this direction... towards him.

Neither one of us will be the persons we are capable of being... as long as we both live... outside the will of God... in the darkness... produced, in part, by Plan B.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Neither one of us can biblically remarry. We are God's perfect will for each other... for life.

Biblical remarriage isn't on the basis of sin... and which one did what.

Biblical remarriage is solely on the basis of God moving to unite two hearts in the bonds of holy matrimony.

And what is that bond? Chains? Prison? Those kinds of bonds? No, the bonds of God's Love. God's Love is greater than all our sin... and has not changed.

This isn't mere emotion... mere feelings that ebb and flow in our own emotional experience of them. This is the unconditional love of God in covenant relationship that is immutable and cannot change.

Why won't the Lord release me personally? Perhaps because it is His ongoing will to restore this relationship.

Is this always true in every case? I'm thinking if it was a true bond of God's love between 2 born-again Christians... yeah, I'd think so. However, I will speak for myself in the Word of God on which I personally stand. It's only MY Plan A on which I am focussed at this time in application of this according to my own conscience.

I don't believe everyone is called to... or capable... of knowing this truth. That's why Jesus said that not everyone is capable of receiving it... when even his disciples... who became apostles of the church... protested.

But for me, it's what I do know.

Please don't be concerned about the "evil ex".

He's no better or worse than any other Christian... in Christ.

In God's sight, he's fully forgiven. I'm not worried about it. I have the Holy Spirit as my Counselor.

Hi Mr Wonderful,

Read your last post. My immediate thought is this:

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound...
that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost,
but now am found,
was blind,
but now I see.

I didn't deserve such grace. It's unmerited favor.

I certainly am in no position to state that my ex has to earn anything.

The moment we make love... the evil spell may be broken... perhaps.

I will know. The Lord will lead me.

Listen, not one man has been able to convince me to have sex with him... because I cannot bring myself to transgress the bonds of God's Spirit in that area.

Nor could the ex persuade me... if it were truly wrong.

We shall see if the angels rejoice with one sinner who repents. His repentance may be "consummated"... by sex with me. Hey! It could happen.

The Lord works in mysterious ways... past finding out. But I will be lead of the Spirit... and appreciate that I find your concern to be motivated by care... not presumption in an effort to justify a divorce and desire for remarriage... seeing me as "the enemy" because I don't hold the same views.

Thanks again!

P.S. Not to get too theological... but did you realize there is a will of the flesh that combats the will of the spirit within a Christian?

Nor did my ex, in his spirit, choose to divorce me. He was taken captive... and the Lord does not hold this sin against him... in such amazing grace.

I've never been able to hold grudges.

The sin he did, he did not do... but sin that dwelt within him - that is his members. In his mind, he serves Christ from his heart in the truth of who my ex truly is.

He's not evil.

He's wonderful... to me.

It isn't him that sinned... it was sin in his members.

It was the fog.

The fog indeed. The Betrayed Spouse fog is thick. I seriously think you are deluded here and denying reality.

Your husband/XH may very well have been "wonderful" but he did not submit or give in to the flesh as one would accidentally step in a hole in the ground...."oops, darn hole". Have no delusion...he CHOOSE the flesh and remains today in active rebellion to God. His actions demonstrate an absence of God (evil).

"rebellion" is an active word. His sin wasn't a one time "mistake"...it CONTINUES,by his CHOICE today.

"The sin he did...he did not do". WHAT? Your XH WILL be judged for his actions and regardless of whether he repents or not...he (and you) will suffer the consequences of his sin.

Please Back, the "fog" didn't make him do anything. The "fog" may explain what keeps him there but he had free will to enter the fog and free will to leave the fog. God is chasing him, no doubt, but without God he IS evil..today.

Just as coldness is measured by the absence of heat...evil is measured by the absence of God.

On another note...What is YOUR battle of the flesh? WHY must you have, consider or be open to non-marital non-biblical sex with him in order to deliver him to God. YOUR FLESH is not necessary to do this....your faith IS.

How big is your God????

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Just as Church discipline would and should remove your husband, an active adulterer, from the flock....you should remove him from your "marital" bed. In the same spirit the church will beckon and welcome him should he turn from sin and "sin no more" you can beckon too...with an offer of marital coitus(sp?) ONCE HE REPENTS AND TURNS FROM HIS SIN/ADULTERY. Anything less (sex with an active adulterer), IMO is unGodly as destructive by communion with evil to His flock (you). You really shouldn't even break bread with him.

p.p.s. - You CAN Plan A him by becoming the most lovable person imaginable and attracting him from the fog and adultery by being a awesome, attractive, Christian/Godly, well rounded, beautiful, active, welcoming, etc. woman. IMO...beauty will NOT be found nor demonstrated sharing a bed with a known active sinner living in rebellion to His word. You MAY not be defiling the "one flesh" but you would be defiling yourself...your temple. You say you KNOW your husband and this strategy will work but at what cost to YOU, especially if it doesn't work????? You'll still be alone, only a little more broken by this man (your ex) who we can only judge by his actions, is evil...today. Play with fire....get burned. Consequences result from poor choices...guaranteed.

Hi Mr. Wonderful,

At this time, I believe your intents are pure and are motivated by care rather than carnality (the fog) that wants to legitimate adultery in remarriage.

#1... There are 2 levels of reality. One level of reality is related to actions that are evil. Actions of adultery are evil. Nonetheless, I'm quoting Romans 7. Christians are not judged by God on the basis of their actions but rather their position in Christ in the Spirit born of the Spirit. BEING spirit... not flesh... those who are spirit are not regarded in identity and righteousness by God on the basis of their actions rather than their faith.

God sees all born-again Christians as perfect, holy, and blameless. God may hate their sin - but He says those He has justified cannot be condemned. Paul states in Romans 7 that though he sins - it is not "him" according to his spirit sinning - but rather sin (the fog) taking occasion to sin as a external alien force functioning through his body.

I can both recognize the evil of actions and call them evil in relation to my ex while, at the same time, seeing my ex for who he truly is in Christ in spirit and in truth.

Sin is evil. Christians are forgiven. Christians, in fact, are perfect, holy, and blameless in Christ in identity spiritually in Christ. The identity of a Christian is not in their flesh but rather in their spirits in the Holy Spirit in Christ having been born of God as a new creation.

It isn't "doublespeak"... it's the reality of being spirit and merely having flesh... like a perfect person having having something external to them on them that cannot be held against the identity of who they really are.

I agree with God in this. My ex is perfect in his spirit though sinful according to the flesh. The sin is evil. My ex is good, pleasing, perfect, holy, and blameless. The content of his character may include sin... but the content of his identity contains no sin.

This is sound theology and explains eternal security. With one's spirit, as a Christian, one never sins (though one does sin according to the flesh). Therefore, identity is the issue. If one is the sum of one's actions (which include sin) one is not redeemed nor perfect nor holy. However, if one who is born of the Spirit is solely spirit in identity... one is redeemed, perfect, holy, and blameless... and Jesus Christ is perfectly just to present as such before God the Father.

This is why Paul in Romans 7 states that the sin he does he does not do but rather it is sin dwelling in his members... and it is Jesus Christ who delivers him (the reality of who he is in spirit and in truth in Christ) from the body of death (which sins - but Paul, nor no Christian, is his body in identity).

I believe all born-again Christians are perfect, holy, blameless and cannot be condemned for any sin in the sight of God. That, and only that, will cause each of us to be received into glory in Heaven. We have truly been cleansed of all sin and are complete in Christ having been made perfect in Him. (We will "separate" from this body of sin/death one day... and be resurrected with new sinless perfect bodies in keeping with our spirits that have already been re-created anew in Christ.)

I'm speaking spiritual truth... not denial of reality. It's true of all born-again Christians - not just my ex. Carnal Christians can't see it... they think we are the sum of our actions and can't understand how God loves us. God has re-created us.

We are perfectly love-able and accept-able to God through Jesus Christ... and are beautiful beyond description... as lovely as Jesus Himself... in all spirit and truth.




#2. Yes, you are correct. My XH is not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh in this matter. The Bible states that Christians who sin have been taken captive by Satan to do Satan's will. There is freedom in submission to God's Spirit and God's will... but all who sin are the prisoners of sin. I see no freedom in the will of Satan and the flesh manifesting. I would not agree that my XH's will is free rather than bound by sin and taken captive by Satan via the fog. He must be regarded as a person who is under Satan's power and control in this matter... who is doing evil in his actions... and who is in "the fog"... the deception of sin.

(Still he's wonderful in Christ... to me. I'm smiling because I can see him as God sees him in that light... at all times and at any time... which is why my love for him is so powerful and pure. However, his sin has "short-circuited" our love... the sin has attacked my tender heart... and it is Satan who seeks to cause me to be offended and has thrown me on the electric fence... which is the very power of ******.)

If Jesus can say from the cross, "Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do." and love us perfectly to the end... how can I who am the equal of my XH in being a sinner saved by grace justify hating him as if I were better than him?

#3... Yes, again, agreed. The actions themselves are sin. The action demonstrate sin and all sin is the absence of God while at the same time exemplifying the presence of Satan. There can be no compromise. Sin is evil. (Yet, I will not agree that my XH is evil though he sins.) There is a definite separation between evil deeds and the personal identity of goodness in a Christian who sins.

#4... Yes, agreed, my XH is living in sin in ongoing rebellion in his actions... his attitudes and behavior... and his sin continues today. (His will having been taken captive by "the fog"... him being deceived and brought under the powers of sin). (He's still wonderful to me.)

#5.... Yes, there are definite consequences of sin. Sin, being evil, causes suffering... I agree.

#6... Blessings, but to me biblically there is no such thing as "free will" to sin. No person sins without Satan, who is the master of all those sin, coming under Satan's domination and control. By God's grace, we are delivered from the powers of sin and Satan only by His Holy Spirit.

You see, apart from the presence of the Holy Spirit actively working in Christians - we all would sin.

In this situation, I am the "vehicle" of the working of the Holy Spirit in my XH's sexuality.

Do you understand that? What I mean?

Without me present... the Holy Spirit can work in my XH's life to be sure. However, with me present... this is how the Holy Spirit works.

#7... Blessings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but you're really not understanding me, I think. The sex that I have with my husband is sanctified by the Love of God... the bonds of holy matrimony... and is not a work of the flesh. Though we have sex with our physical bodies... the marriage bed is undefiled... and the physical union is sanctified by God.

Physical union apart from this sanctification is mere flesh acting in sin. It is because we are one in spirit that we can be one in flesh and it is not sin. (This is true of all who have sex within the bonds of holy matrimony... and this is one reason why God hates divorce. God has made the 2 one by His Spirit... it is a spiritual union primarily... and it is this spiritual union which makes physical union (oneness in sex) holy by the bonds of God's Spirit = holiness in marriage).

(This is why the sex you have with your wife - and all sex within the bonds of marriage is not sin but rather holy.)

Malachi 2:14-16 (King James Version)
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

16For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.



Do you see the scripture and is the spiritual dimension and reality "coming alive" in your sight? It is GOD and it is our spirits... that has the residue... of the oneness... and this is why God hates divorce. It "covers up" the reality in/by externals (like a cloak) of the spiritual unseen dimension of spiritual union in Christ... and is a lie of the flesh. The spiritual union... the residue of the spirit... continues to exist. To break the union is to "break faith". Faith is spiritual... all of the reality of marriage at it's core is spiritual: God.

My faith is still present... and it is by faith that I will have holy union. The bond has not been broken... God still bears witness and is still present... at the spiritual unseen level in this bond between us. It is covenant.

#8... My God is so big that He cannot be limited by time, space, or anything.

#9... There can be no church discipline against covenant sexual union. Where there is spiritual union in Christ, true covenant relationship, there is no sin. MY sex with XH = his healing, deliverance, and repentance... for it IS what sanctifies him.

I DO like and appreciate how strong your convictions are!!! How clearly you see the evil of sexual immorality!!!

And how you biblically state that those practising same should face church discipline... and Christians should not even eat with them.

That's exactly what the Bible says!!!!

Hallelujah!!! A Christian of biblical character and scriptural/spiritual conviction!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(If the Lord "opens your eyes"... and you see the spiritual dimension and see that my XH and I are still married... and function out of that understanding... you will be worth all of the abuse that has been heaped on me on this board. You will be prepared, ready, and able to support me as I obey the Lord to restore my XH to the holiness of our union in Christ... and I so appreciate how you are searching the scriptures and thinking this through biblically to discover what is "the truth". Thank you.)

? - Did you have sex with your WS while the WS was still having an affair?

Honestly, I'm not 100% certain I will... because I'm not certain I can do so without experiencing emotional injury. However, the injury would not be because I personally was doing anything wrong. The sex would be perfectly sanctified. However, it is true that my ex is living a sinful life. And it may be more wise to Plan B on that level and insist on complete breakage of all contact with the women with whom he is having immoral sex.

It is merely a question of wisdom, then... not a question of right or wrong on my part. (Again, the sex would be holy and sanctified by the Spirit in spiritual union in covenant relationship which was not broken by his immorality... just wounded... and will be restored and fully healed by his return to biblical values as you say.)

It is merely a question of wisdom... and I am not so concerned about "being hurt" as I am concerned as to what is the best strategy to "return him to the fold".

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is reconciliation for which Jesus Christ died... to destroy the dividing wall of hostility that separated all mankind (who had become sinful) from God (who is Holy).

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the ministry of reconciliation... and the destruction of the electric fence of ******.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Again, much blessing to you... and I'm quite thankful to you for your faithfulness to Christ.

Whileas we do not at this time see all things in agreement... and I will follow the Lord's leading in this matter according to my own understanding of the Bible and the leadership of the Holy Spirit in my life... I see a person strongly founded on the Word of God STRETCHING to study this matter and show himself approved.

Kudos!!!!

A Berean of noble character... for the Bereans were of noble character and searched the scriptures to see what was true.

You do not function by the mores of this fallen world... and do not run... like a wolf in the pack... with the crowd of this world... and the carnal-minded.

If you see what I'm saying... I will add you to my list of those who support me in Christ... and all the abuse others have heaped upon me will be worth it as finding one rose among thorns makes the PRICKS of the thorns forgotten and of no consequence.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have more to say... regarding this. I looked up some church history, etc.

God bless

Here is some church history below. The prevailing doctrine of the church formerly recognized the total spiritual nature of marriage. (I personally formed my convictions from my own study of scripture and in prayer... and in the leading of the Holy Spirit). However, I looked up the history of the church... and information on that is posted below.

To attack my for my own biblical understanding and conviction is completely uncalled for... and evidence of wickedness on the parts of those promoting a more liberal view, imo. The viciousness with which I have been attacked by even Christians who have not surrendered to the yoke of Christ and insist God will honor their remarriages... to me... is evidence of great moral corruption.

In all good conscience, I see that the scripture treats differently Christians who were married to unbelievers. I honestly do not personally know or understand that these covenants cannot be disannuled by God.

In other words, if an unbeliever does not live in peace with a believer... yes, I believe God may indeed will for those parties to divorce...and that believer may not be bound. (I am not certain - and I won't limit what others say because the Word definitely distinguishes between marriage to believers and marriage to unbelievers by believers.)

However, I see no way possible - myself - for a believer to divorce a fellow believer and thus sever the bonds of holy matrimony. I don't believe the bond can be broken... and though it is wounded by adultery... I believe God still stands and the bonds of holy matrimony still exist.

I don't believe God ever recognizes divorce or sanctifies subsequent remarriage in those cases.

That's what I, in all good conscience, believe. Because I believe it... I WILL apply it to my life. I have to. It's what I believe.

But just by believing that... I have not "attacked" anyone... nor are the vicious attacks against me justified by my diverse biblical position and view... and how, as a matter of conscience, I determine to live my life accordingly... and declare that OF COURSE... any marriage that breaks up 2 believers through an A is not considered a marriage by God when the WS marries the OP. It's ongoing adultery. That's how I see it.

These are the things I believe based on scripture at this time. I am moved by them, of course. That's my right and liberty as a believer of the Lord Jesus Christ... my religion... my faith... imo.

God bless,

CHURCH HISTORY ON DIVORCE AND REMARRIAGE

350

Augustine believed and taught that marriage was indissolvable until death and this was the earthly picture given of the heavenly reality of Christ’s relationship to the church, therefore no remarriage was allowed if one did suffer a divorce.

1250

Thomas Aquinas taught that the mystery of marriage was one of seven sacraments, a means by which God transmitted grace into a believer’s life. Luther and Erasmus both reacted to this teaching because of Luther’s strong understanding of justification by faith. They wanted to rid the church of the sacramental system. In so doing, they over-reacted to changing the existing marriage laws and teachings.

1516

Erasmus publishes the first Greek New Testament.

1519

Erasmus writes a new interpretation on marriage, divorce and remarriage in his Annotations on I Corinthians 7. It was a theological, homiletical interpretation, not exegetical (inviting human reasoning instead of letting the text speak for itself)! It contained humanistic overtones (putting man’s need for happiness in front of obedience to God). Erasmus taught that love should come before any law on marriage and held that it was not loving of the church to insist that couples be made to continue in unhappy relationships. The church should deliver those who suffer in bad marriages.



The two new revolutionary propositions were:

1. It should be permissible to dissolve certain marriages.

2. The ‘innocent party’ should be allowed to remarry.

These two views were considered heretical by the theologians of the day.

1532

King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife Catherine and marry Ann Boleyn. He popularized Erasmus’s new views on divorce and remarriage and eventually broke away from the Catholic Church due to his desire to divorce and remarry. He started the Church of England, now known as the Episcopal Church.

1550

Council of Trent. Catholic Church meets to renounce the exegetical results of Erasmus’s studies and of the reformers as well. The Catholic Church held to two types of divorce:



1. Separation of bed and board (still one flesh till death).

2. Annulment - insisting that the marriage had been unlawfully contracted to begin with.

1648

Westminister Confession: official Protestant Reformation statement of new doctrines.



The Protestant Reformers latched onto Erasmus’s interepretation of the marriage and divorce tests. Luther added the thinking that since in the Old Testament adulterers were stoned, he reasoned that the modern adulterer could be considered as “dead” which would free the other party to remarry.



From this point on, we have our modern-day teaching that adultery (and now “desertion” and even “irreconcilable differences”) can break one-flesh and all parties are free to remarry. This teaching has destroyed the family as God designed and planned it to be. For 1650 years, there was no remarriage, now look at the state of marriage in modern times after only 350 years of a false teaching! The church is responsible for this lie in the earth. May God remove the blindness and bring a deep repentance.

SUMMARY:

350 Augustine

An early church father, taught that marriage was indissolvable till death, therefore remarriage, in the event of a divorce, was out of the question.

For the first 500 years, this was the early church position and essentially was an undisputed teaching.

1250 Thomas Aquinas

Incorporated marriage as one of the seven sacraments in the Catholic Church. Catholics believe that sacraments are a means by which God transmits His grace into a believer’s life.



Protestants believe that God transmits His grace to us primarily through faith, therefore during the Reformation, Luther and Erasmus reacted to marriage as a sacrament as they taught justification by faith, not by sacraments.



However, in their zeal to dismantle the sacramental system, Luther and Erasmus went too far in dismantling what had been essentially taught in the church for 1500 years: that marriage was for life and remarriage, apart from the death of a spouse, was considered as adultery.

1516 Erasmus publishes first Greek New Testament

Raised in the monasteries and the universities, he was an early friend of the Reformation and of Martin Luther, whom later was denounced as a heretic because he mixed humanistic philosophies in his New Testatment teachings. He was respected because he published the first Greek New Testament which the Reformers all used in their study of scripture. Because they respected his ability to translate Greek, they bought into some of his expositions on scripture as well, one of which was his new teaching on marriage and divorce.

1519 Erasmus introduces teachings on divorce and remarriage

Three years later, Erasmus introduces his understanding of the divorce and remarriage texts in his writings called, “Annotation on I Corinthians 7". He taught that love should come before any law on marriage and that it was not loving for the church to insist that people stay in bad marriages. In fact, he believed it was the Church’s responsibility to deliver people from unhappy marriages.

He promoted two revolutionary propositions:

1. Certain marriages should be given permission to be dissolved.

2. Those involved should be able to remarry.



Both of these ideas were considered heretical to the theologians of that day.



1500's Luther’s teachings.

Luther introduced the idea that since O.T. adulterers were stoned, then adulterers under the NT were to be considered as good as dead. All the reformers were influenced by Erasmus (The Father of Humanism). They respected him for his work on the Greek text and in coming against the Catholic Church.



1532 King Henry VII

Supported and popularized Erasmus’s teaching because he wanted to divorce his wife Catherine and marry Ann Bolyn.

1550 Council of Trent

Catholic church officially rejects the reformers new views on marriage and divorce.

1648 Westminister Confession

Protestant church officially adopts new teaching that adultery and desertion dissolves one flesh (not death) and that the innocent parties can remarry.



CONCLUSION:



1650 years of no remarriage.



Last 350 years, new teaching as a result of Erasmus and Luther. Now 60% of marriages end in divorce and second and third marriages are common in society. The breakdown of the family is greater than ever and the shocking truth is this: the evangelical church of the reformation that made an interpretation mistake and is responsible for the erroneous teaching we now have in the church on marriage and divorce. Marriage and family has become a disaster in modern-day society. The world no longer has any standard to measure it’s behavior by. We are truly salt that has lost its flavor.....God must and will judge this!



Submitted by: Carol Nendel

Author of Divorce, Remarriage, & the Falling Away

The sin he did, he did not do...

Well...that makes sense... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It isn't him that sinned... it was sin in his members.


His member?? Sin was found in his member...as in sexual member??? Like you know...his penis? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

committed

Exactly committed. Double entendre acknowledged... but principle stated... correctly.

Do you know all the sin that people do? Adam and Eve were perfectly innocent... as innocent as babies or the most delightful small children... in the Garden.

Satan came into the Garden and corrupted them and deceived them by... the fog... of his seduction, his spirit, his lies.

It is Satan who is evil... and working in the sons of disobedience.

God, who is rich in mercy, has sent a Savior to save us from our sins. God loves us today just as He loved Adam and Eve. God sees beyond our sins... and sees that though we are responsible and accountable... we are also corrupted beyond our own ability to change in and of ourselves.

God loves us... and declares that the sin of even the worst sinner is done... in ignorance (kind of like an innocent child overcome by an evil outside invader more powerful than him/herself.).

Here is the scripture to which I referred:

Romans 7:15-24 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Do you see? God does not hold us personally responsible for our own sin when Jesus Christ becomes the atoning sacrifice for our sins... and we receive the Spirit of God as His dear children. (little children... innocent, beautiful, children).

And here you see that not only God does not hold or count any of our sins against us... but neither does He allow anyone else to condemn us according to the sin that dwells in our members... the fog... that is in the body:

Romans 8:32-34 (King James Version)

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


God did not leave us to be victims of Satan... though Adam and Eve sinned.

God has sent Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the world... and Satan shall be destroyed.

And God shall redeem and recover and reconcile... the whole world.

For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

This life is in His Son - Jesus Christ.

Yeah, it's true. No one can charge anything against those elect and born of God in God's sight who have living faith in Jesus Christ. They shall enter Heaven.

The only sin they do today is the result of the fog... by which Satan still has access to us to tempt us to sin... due to the weakness of these human bodies.

That's the Bible.

To me, that's God.

He holds nothing against any of us. He laid all our sin upon Jesus Christ... and He loves everyone... and will reclaim all.

Bottom-line... there is zero point... in holding sin against a person in unforgiveness rather than moving to agree with God that their sins are forgiven through Jesus Christ... and moving by the reconciling Spirit of God to call them to return to loving relationship with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

And, yes, this always applies to Christians... even every WS.

So, while there are consequences of sin and accountability to apply to effect, in part, the call to return to the grace and the love of God in Christ in OBEDIENCE and thus sanity... we all battle the fog.

It's the fog we battle... not people

For we fight not enemies of flesh and blood but spiritual principalities and powers of darkness and the evil of this present world.

Well apparently then, he can do this to you over and over.

You never answered Mr. W's questions about your divorce.

Yeah...what Lexxxy said.

I have been wondering about that myself.

Why aren't you giving any particulars about your role and decision-making in this entire process?

Is there a reason that you aren't sharing those very important details?

committed

I agree, I would be interested in the answers to Mr. W's questions, as they were my questions too...See, we discuss many situations here together and then one of us posts...Just wanted you to know that I am reading too...

Btw, though *I* certainly think that Mr. W equals "Mr. Wonderful", around here, to others besides me, he is known simply as "Mr. Wondering"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Hi Mrs. W and all,

I have felt like road kill on this board... with a pack of buzzards picking at me. I'm sorry, but that's how it feels.

Not each or any of you in particular... but there are a few who have given me that feeling.

The last thing I will do at this time is share any further intimate information in an environment I feel to be abusive.

Also, I'm not so certain I want specific advice. Actually, I may be wrong about that - to certain extent - but I am not becoming more open by people moving to force me and pick at me and treat me like road kill.

I have completely shut down.

I will not be sharing any further particulars relative to my personal business.

I will discuss things of a general nature... and it is FH's post on the other board that convinced me that it does feel safe to discuss the Word... then another poster wants to discuss the Word relative to divorce, remarriage, etc.

Yes, I've shut down. It's probably a fault on my part. It's definitely a defense mechanism.

I appreciate you... I love you in the Lord... but there are people on this board I want absolutely nothing to do with... and I'm not going to share any intimate detail of my life.

God bless

If a person in a marriage relationship (I'm done being personal... and will discuss only general concepts)... wants to be immoral... that's their decision.

They cannot be "forced" to be better than they are. One can only protect one's self from exposure to them.

It is only positive motivation that effects positive change.

If a Plan A is not successful... Plan B is the right choice.

If a spouse does not want to be married, or wants to have affairs, or wants to divorce, or whatever... that's their choice.

One has power only over one's own choice.

So do I understand correctly that this logic does not apply to your XH? He DID have power over his choice did he not. Above you seem to infer that he did not have control...that he was taken captive...by sins of the flesh.

Lust is an emotion for which we are completely responsible for, especially when we "choose" to act on it. Did your XH not choose to act upon his feelings of lust for the OW?

[/quote]

So do I understand correctly that this logic does not apply to your XH? He DID have power over his choice did he not. Above you seem to infer that he did not have control...that he was taken captive...by sins of the flesh.

Lust is an emotion for which we are completely responsible for, especially when we "choose" to act on it. Did your XH not choose to act upon his feelings of lust for the OW? [/quote]

If you can find a hole in my logic... I will thank you for helping me to learn. But it may be that I have not shared every facet of what I believe...

Please don't disappoint me. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trying to attach yourself to me in negativity like a leech to try to suck the very life out of me.

I'm tired. I'm weary. But in the off chance that you ask in sincerity... and not to bore into my soul to extract the very love of God from within me... oh... I'll answer.

Choice, will, and the powers that be... are simple... profound... and challenging to comprehend, imo.

My believe is that you and I are powerless as human beings. We will choose according to what is within us... and the powers that be around us... the influences in our lives... as well as the opportunities before us.

If I was in the same position as someone else: if what was within me... the powers that were around me... the influences in my life... as well as the opportunities before me... were the same as "so and so"... I would have chosen exactly as "so and so" chose.

I may not have sinned a sin that another "chose" to sin... but did I stand in their shoes, with their history, in the same exact situation, born of the same exact circumstance, etc., etc.???

I am no different, really. I am not better at all.

Whatever they did... I would have done.

But by the grace of God, there go we all.

Does this "facet" make sense to you?

The second part is this... if I could influence another... how could I influence them in a positive way?

If I move to take control of their will... I do so from a fear-based need.

However, if I act in love... then I have the opportunity to be a positive influence that can influence them for the good.

I must respect their choice, their personhood... or, automatically, I function in the dark... from a fear-based need. It is negative... and only bondage will result. This is sin.

But if I respect their choice, their personhood... and act in love... then I may influence them for the good without taking away from them their choice, their personhood. That's the power of love... the only force and power that can truly compel... without bondage.

I have power over my choice to love... to the extent that love is within me... around me,,, and functions through me.

But do I truly control any of these things? My power of choice to love is empowered only by my submission... to my Higher Power: God.

He is Love.

And apart from His influence... I am... I have... I can do... nothing good.

But by the grace of God, it would have been the BS who fell into lust and made the same choice as the WS to engage in lust... and who is the BS to judge the WS? God has had mercy on the WS... and it is this mercy the BS craves.

It may be only by the BS's love... that the influence of God's Love... will re-enter the WS's life... empowering the WS to make better choices.

Did I obey the Lord? No. When the Lord instructed me to act in love, did I? Or did I collapse under the pressure of the attack that came not only against the WS from the fog... but also at me through the WS?

Satan could never have held him... had I been strong enough in the Lord to live a life of love.

I wasn't.

I'm not sure that I am today.

So as far as being bitter against the WS... I don't answer for him. I answer for me.

Apart from the grace of God... and the influence of God's Good Spirit... neither one of us is strong enough... we are powerless... before the fog.

Are we responsible for our own actions? Yes.

Are we forgiven? Yes.

The missing quotient to understanding this... is nailed to a cross.

Jesus.