<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> you will be just fine, try, if you make a decision to be a this instead of this.

You are welcome, and glad my message was received as intended.

I'll let the more experienced posters advise you on "what" to do next. The role I'm more confortable with is getting fellow BH's to be strong and stand up for themselves.

You see, immediately prior to my FWW A, we had found ourselves in a vicious circle of dysfunction. In a nutshell, I was experiencing stresses at work and tended to "blow up" over small stuff when I got home ... I didn't blow up AT my W, but in her presence to where she was starting to withdraw away from me. I sensed this lack of attention/admiration from her, and started turning into a begging, pleading weinie in a pathetic attempt to have those needs met, which only further turned off her desire for me ... and on ... and on ... and on.

After D-Day, I started reading everything I could get my hands on to try to find out what was going on, to understand it, to discover what action I needed to take, etc. ... basically where you are now. Anyway, I stumbled across that old "Serenity Prayer":

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

... and I realized that I couldn't do a thing to make my WW do anything, and I had to ACCEPT that. All I could do was make the necessary changes in myself, which got me to thinking about how I was originally when my W first fell in love with me, and I realized that I had to reconnect with my old "confidence", because I didn't like who I'd become. Honestly, almost immediately upon realization, my old confidence returned, because that's really who I was all along ... not this pitiful weinie that I'd become. KEEP IN MIND, I did this for ME, regardless of whether we Recovered or not, I WANTED ME BACK.

When I got home, I told my wife about "My Revelation", hence the username, and she could SEE the changes in me immediately, and I could see a "spark" for me forming in her again, almost immediately.

Simply put, women don't find needy men attractive AT ALL, but there was a reason that your W was attracted to you originally ... RECONNECT WITH THAT GUY!!!

Good Luck to you!!!

Hi TTH,
Just caught up with your posts. Do you have a copy of any of the e-mails from that secret e-mail account? I'll bet that the OM's W would not approve of many of the e-mails that were sent. I know that there is no way in H3ll that those two would send huge numbers of e-mails to each other and have them all be neutral type letters.

If you have copies or can tap into those letters again in some way--do that and keep hard copies so you can show them to OM's W.

My H tried to snow me when he was forced to tell me that he was e-mailing OW daily. It shocked me to hear he was e-mailing her every day. He said he did not think that any of the letters were out of line---Yeah, right.

I snooped and found some the next day. I was shocked at the coyness and playfulness and intimacy and kidding on the square. I'm certain that is what is going on with OM and OM's W has her head in the sand.

Haven't posted in a while, holiday etc.
Well, I was deceived again. The exposure to OMW didn't go well. OMW defended OM and even said that "friendship" between WW and OM was OK w/her.
The supposed NC wasn't really done. OM called WW the following day. Turns out they've been keeping in touch all along (no real surprise I guess). I find this incredibly hurtful and gave an ultimatum. Either she knocks it off completely (including disposal of all "memento's (photo's, cd's, etc)), or I'm throwing her out. Tough thing is, her family is on the other coast, and that might actually seem better for her than staying with me...
I think she's scared, and I know she doesn't want our marriage to end, but she can't (won't) break contact. She even went so far as to say that she never said she would end contact, which is patently false.She's promiosed and broken that at least a half dozen times, including two NC letters she sent.
She tells me that she hates herself for hurting me, knows that I'm who she wants to be with, and doesn't understand why it's so difficult for her to stop.
We have been attending counseling together for a few weeks, which has focused really on my inability to communicate with her and provide for her EN's. The counselor is not being judgemental about the affair, but seems to think that fixing our inability to communicate is the most important first step toward resolution. I fear that if it isn't already that a PA can't be far off.
My wife has never had anyone betray a friendship in her life, and has not experienced the pain of losing someone she loves dearly (as I have) so in a sense I can understand her not recognizing what she's playing with. BUT, she still twists all evidence of the d-bag that OM truly is, to her own justification for the "friendship" to continue.
I'm at a loss. I can't focus at my job, I find myself constantly wondering what she's doing when I'm at work. If she's seeing him.
The counselor says WW has to figure this out for herself, that trying to convince her of anything at this point is setting my cause backwards. For the time being, I'm trying to communicate better, and to be there for her as I was when we were good together. I hope this works. Part of me want's to call OM and tell him to get the F out of my marriage, but I doubt that would do anything except piss myself off, and provide more humorous fodder for "them"...
What to do?...

TTH, why haven't you called the OM? You could tell him to get the #$%@& out of your marriage and then explain what a friend IS NOT...
Friends don't..
Lie
Deceive
Erase phone records
Set up secret email accounts for exclusive use
Cause trouble in their friends marriage

One symptom of an alcoholic is that IF it causes disruption in your family, you might be one. An addiction is an adiction.

This is not a friend, he is a dirty little secret.

Just my take on it....GF

TTH- just read all your posts.... Don't allow yourself to be a door mat. My FWW never betrayed anyone in her life.... no one.... except me... don't fool yourself...

As far as what she has or has not done... PA is most likely already happenning. Get a PI and get photos, go undercover and prove to OMW that it is much more... this could take a ton of time but your best bet at busting this up is the OMW....

Other than that you must formulate a plan and stick to it.... there are many here who can help...

I think its really cute that you are working on "communication" but it does nothing to solve the problem. Unfortunately, your "counselor" knows nothing about adultery or she would not give you this dismal advice. Most C's know nothing about adultery and actually cause more harm than good. They have the lowest rate of success out of any mental health venues [16% success] and have a higher divorce rate than the gen pop.

So, you are wasting your money with this counselor as you can see. Until the affair ends, counseling will be of no use at all.

Stick with Marriage Builders principles, try, Dr.Harley is a psychologist who SPECIALIZES in infidelity and understands the dynamics. Your C, on the other hand, does not and will likely just destroy your marriage by pretending that "communication" is the problem while the TITANIC sinks.

Your next logical step is PLAN B if she refuses to end her affair. Plan B is a seperation that protects you from her abuse and stops her cakeeating. She is getting her needs met in 2 places and won't likely end this set up willingly. She will keep this up until you either have a nervous breakdown or grow to hate her. Plan B would require that she move out and support herself. It would emulate a divorce in all ways. I would give that some serious thought.

But most importantly, lose the counselor. He/she is apparently not qualified in infidelity and is making this worse by ignoring the affair.

Do you really think I should call OM? If my wife wants to continue with him, what motivation does he have to stop just because I call? (I'd like your take, Melody, if you're still on...)
Should I address my concerns with the counselor about not attacking the affair directly? My wife likes her, and I don't want to sabotage the possibility that she will help my WW recognize her issues.
I agree completely with the Dr. H methods, but I'm an analytical person. My WW is not. don't we need to at least be on some "same page" to salvage our relationship?

I might meet up with him and ask him to stop contacting your wife. Tell him he is destroying your marriage.


What issue is the counselor going to help her "recognize" if she doesnt even know how to address the affair? There will be no recovery as long as your W is an affair. Ask for her qualifications and background in successfully saving marriages from adultery. Ask for her OWN marital status. Ask about her experience with MB principles. The goal here is to save your marriage, no? If she is not qualified to do that, then what would be the point?


Wait a minute. You are not in recovery and won't be until the affair is ended so there will not be any agreement anyway. Counsleing is USELESS when there is an ongoing affair. WHAT IS YOUR C DOING TO END THE AFFAIR SO YOU CAN GET INTO RECOVERY? I will tell you what she is doing: NOTHING. She is wasting your time. I don't believe this C has the slightest idea how to help you.

Until the affair ends, there will be no recovery, thus no point in paying someone for counseling. Does the counselor even KNOW THIS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I agree with ML that the counseling is pretty much worthless while the A is ongoing. Do you see how ridiculous it is that your WW is having an A and the counselor thinks the focus should be on improving your communication? I can see why your WW likes your counselor, as you've noted the counselor has not asked your WW to stop cheating on you.

Yes, you and WW will need to be on the same page to salvage the relationship. That's called Recovery. You're not in Recovery. You're not going to be on the same page as WW unless you start getting on her page and agreeing that her inappropriate relationship with OM is OK with you or she gets on your page and ends all contact with him. Guess which one you want? If the counselor won't even try to convince WW to stop contacting OM, then it's a complete waste of time and money.

It's unfortunate (and a little surprising) that OMW thinks it's okay for her H to tell another woman he has feelings for her. But it's not okay with you. You should express your feelings to OM. Tell him you don't want him to ever talk to your WW again no matter what and that you'll take whatever action necessary to ensure that.

You should probably start preparing for Plan B. In the meantime, keep up Plan A.

I think you're all correct about the counseling. It is my belief as well that the affair has to end before we can start to restore our marriage.

Part of the problem, I believe, is that my WW and I have somewhat different goals in counseling. I am completely focused on fixing what's wrong in our marriage, but WW is going through some sort of (early?) mid life crisis, and wants to try to understand her feelings of ambivalence.

She is 28, and we've been together for almost 9 1/2 years. She's not had many life experiences, and I think is trying to find herself in some way. Again, she says that she loves me, doesn't want to live without me, doesn't want to break up the home for our son, etc. She alternately feels deep guilt for what she's doing and sometimes feels good about the A and how it makes her feel.
She says that she knows that she wants to make us better, and hates herself for not understanding why she can't stop...

I think Melody's comment about me having a nervous breakdown or ending up hating her is right on the money. Obviously I want neither of those endings. It is clear at this point that my continuing to "help" her understand ANYTHING is not working. I'm trying to keep up "Plan A" behavior, but am not sure this is accomplishing anything either.

I will call OM tomorrow and tell him in no uncertain terms that I expect him OUT of my marriage, though I don't expect much to change if WW still wants to contact him. Should I be calm or heated?

I may also fax a copy of the secret email's I have to OMW at her work. I'm also unsure if this will have much effect, as they are not particularly graphic, but the message between the lines is obvious. My wife's part is certainly much more damning to her than his part. Does this seem like a good idea? Perhaps sending it to OMW's work is too harsh? She doesn't deserve to be hurt any more by this F'd behavior of her spouse, also, he's got her pretty well snowed based on my conversation with her.

I'm still not sure if the A has been physical or not, but as hung up as WW is on this P-O-S, and knowing his low character, it can't be far off...

Thanks for the words of support all, keep it coming. It really does help to know that others have gone through this and survived.
I hope this can end well...

Most definitely, get a copy of those e-mails to OM'sW. I do not know if faxing them is the best idea as you cannot be certain she will get them. You could deliver them yourself, or you could have them delivered. You could put them in the mail to her but I would not want to wait one day to get them into her hands. If you have to fax them, fax them.

Yeah, I bet it is easy to read between the lines and I bet it will shock her to actually see it. She has been fed a line by her WH. Men and Women don't text, phone, and e-mail each other with the level of frequency you describe without it getting over the line of appropriate behavior. That quantity creates a level of intimacy between them that is out of bounds.

Get those e-mails into her hands today.

try, that is nice that your wife is trying to "find herself," but that does nothing to resolve the problem at hand. Nor does it entitle her to destroy her H's mental health with cruel, thoughtless behavior. I would explain to her that your marriage cannot survive this way and something has to change. Suggest a seperation and then make plans to go into Plan B.

I agree that you should first send those emails to the OMW.

Thanks for the responses. I will call OM once I get a break this morning. I will also call OMW and ask how she wants to get the emails / phone records. These show a clear pattern.

Regarding the ultimatum I gave WW to end "it" and destroy all "memento's" or she's out, she actually approached me last night to say that she's going to do that, and wanting to know how I wanted her to do it. There are photo's, cards, cd's he burned for her, etc. I told her this morning that I want to be present when she does this (I want to see it with my own eyes).
I may just be desperate for hope or some sign of effort on her part, but I see this as a bit of progress. I hope it's not just a matter of giving me something to tide me over while she continues to proceed with the A.

On another point, do you think it would be a good or bad idea to share this Discussion thread with my wife? Perhaps reading the advice and perspectives shared here will help her see what she's really involved in without it coming from me.
Do you think this will help?

try, I would also ask her to send him a no contact letter that is written together and mailed by you. That is the least she can do if you are willing to work through the mess she made.

And she shouldn't be brought over here until you know the affair is well over and she is through withdrawal. If you do, you will lose this place as a resource because we can't help you navigate this if she is reading here. When you really get into recovery is the time to bring her here.

Mel,
she has sent two such letters, and has honored neither. I'm not sure if asking her to do that again will do anything. She's proven time and again that her word cannot be trusted.

Thanks for the perspective on not sharing the thread. You're absolutely right. Throughout this ordeal I think I've consistently put too many of my cards on the table, thinking I'm being open and honest. Unfortunately I think she's used this information against me somewhat. "misplaced compassion"... right?

Do you have any advice on how I should present my position to OM when I call? Be calm? Use emotion? Discuss/ Be brief?
??????
AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
This is all so horrible, hurtful and unnecessary!!
I wish she would WAKE UP!!

Well, I called OM and told him to stay out of my marriage.

I guess it went about as I suspected it would. He completely blew up at me. According to him I'm a weasel for calling his wife, I've got huge "mental problems" (I guess having a career as a part time food service industry employee qualifies him to make over the phone diagnoses), and am in general a complete Piece of S... What a piece of work.
In hindsight, I should have called him once he went to work, so he wouldn't have had the privacy to rant and rave at me.
I basically stayed calm and told him I wasn't going to argue with him. That this is how it was going to be, and hung up on him in mid rant.

He, of course, immediately called my WW who was on her way into town with our son to meet me for lunch. I could tell by the look on her facwe that he had called, so I simply asked "Was that him?" Which she acknowledged.

We actually had a fairly calm conversation. She asked what was going on, and I simply told her that I called to tell him to stay out of our life. I don't know what he said to her, and I told her it didn't matter to me anyway because I don't care what he thinks about the situation. Apparently he told her that I threatened him, and who knows what other hutful attempts at spin.

I told het that it was past the time for her to decide whether my 9 1/2 years of love support and encouragement or this 6 or so month relationship is more important. That they simply cannot coexist.

We talked about a number of things including the distance that has developed between us in the time since the affair was discovered (not revealed, discovered), and that her feeling that I've become a different person is true because of the situation SHE has presented us with. We talked about how we need to be more understanding of and towards one another, and agreed that ultimately this challenge to us can make our relationship better and stronger.

She said she can't imagine the rest of her life without me, but is afraid to commit to NC, because she's failed trying in the past.

I am under absolutely no false sense of hope based on this discussion. We have had countless similar ones in the time since D-Day, and yet we still are back at square 1. I told her that I am committed to doing everything I can to restore our love and marriage, but am not willing to wait for her committment for much longer. I avoided giving a specific deadline, as I don't want to give a false threat, but I will know very soon what she is choosing. She said that the right choice staying and fixing our family was obvious, but she doubts her ability to not re-contact OM. I asked her rhetorically what differnce delaying the commitment another day, 2 days, week or month would make, to which she just nodded and said "I know". She didn't actually agree to commit to the NC though.

I'm not exactly sure how long I should wait for this to happen before moving to Plan B.

I also mentioned to her that I was unsatisfied with our counselor's lack of urgency in addressing the need for the A to end. WW did agree with me that we can't start recovery until A is over. I would like to find someone who embraces the MB principles, but am a little unsure how to find that person.

We talked in a nice hopeful way of future events, Our son getting on a school bus for the first time, graduating high school, going away to college, and our retiremnt in the Islands, and how we each picture being there together arm in arm sharing those moments. (Sorry if I'm getting a little sappy)

The point is, I know at her deepest level that she wants to make us work. I think she's having trouble with ambivilance and is in fact upset at herself for not being stronger in making the commitment. What suggestions does anyone have for helping her?

Is there a post community for WS's that she might relate to? She says that she feels alone, but is making no effort to seek out allies in this. Sadly the two people she's confided (limited) information to have basically supported her, and tried to make her feel bettre rather than give her the hard advice she really needs. This has only served to reinforce her fogged state belief that her A is not that, and is OK.

Any thoughts? Did I handle the call to OM correctly? OM did tell my WW that OMW wants to talk to her. I can only imagine what sort of nonsense might happen in that talk, but I think I rweally don't care. I think my wifes image of OM may be at least starting to tarnish...
Thanks to everyone who's shown concern and has helped. I need some advice on how to proceed, and what to watch for.
Thanks again. (sorry I'm so wordy with this one...)

try, why not give Steve Harley a call and get marriage COACHING with him? He WILL discuss the affair with your wife and give her hope about your marriage. He costs about $185, but he is worth every penny. He won't waste a minute of your time yapping about nonsense, but will give you a plan to SOLVE this and put you on the right track.

I would get his guidance and then if your W does not commit to no contact, you should plan to seperate and go into Plan B.

You did good with the OM. He is a creep but it is good you had a chat with him. Did you have some emails for the OMW?

I DO have emails.
Among his tirade, he told me not to call his wife either. I don't care one bit about his wishes, but don't know what sort of nonsense he might be capable of. I sure don't need a restraining order or something out on me. It could be very damaging to my career. I think for the time being I may hold off on sending the info, until NC is broken again. What do you think?
I suppose I could mail it to her, but how do I know if she actually gets it or if she simply throws it out once she sees it's from me.
Not sure how to proceed on this front...

try, why not just stick it in the mail to her? Who knows if she will or won't get it, but at least you will have tried.