And you realize which order these things go in, right? I mean he isn't going to commit to the M and then stop being withdrawn. If it happens, it will be the other way around. KWIM?

As far as the snooping, okay, it sounds like your doing what you can for now. Just keep your eyes open and remember if you do get some "proof" the "rules" will have changed somewhat.

Lastly, the trips sound nice. But keep in mind, getting him to be less withdrawn is usually less about big things or events, and more about small, daily reinforcements.

[/quote]And you realize which order these things go in, right? I mean he isn't going to commit to the M and then stop being withdrawn. If it happens, it will be the other way around. KWIM? [/quote]

Hmm... I think I'm using the nifty quote feature properly. I guess we'll find out. Yeah, rprynne, I know what order they'll come in. Just feeling a little discouraged the past day or two, that's all. I mean, I suppose it makes sense.

And WTH is KWIM?? haha...

I guess one thing I left out was back in September, we got in a really bad fight in the morning one morning (no idea what about... this was before my discovery of plan A and MB...). He told me he wanted me out and a D. That day I had just had enough. I went to a doctor's appointment I had, and he called me while I was there to "see how the appointment was going" (on VM, I didn't answer. I decided I wasn't talking to him). WTH. He tells me he wants a D, and then calls and is all nice to me?? So I didn't call back, I was mad! He called like an hour later to see, again, how my doctor's appointment went, and then to tell me he had picked up and mailed some rebate forms for me (stuff I'd have to ask him for weeks to do before that day). Then he sent me a few texts throughout the day... I never responded. Sent me an email with his "horoscope" for the day on it, something about even if the situation you are in is frustrating you shouldn't give up. I didn't respond. He continued to call all evening long too, but I didn't answer. By the end of the day, his phone calls started to get a little angry (asking me if I was off with OM-- I wasn't). But, my point is, that he made more EFFORT that day than he had in probably the prior MONTH combined-- on the day when I GAVE UP! So the next day, I thought maybe he had learned something or had a change of heart, so I called him, and asked him to meet me for dinner. He did. Well, as soon as he realized that I didn't want to leave him, and still wanted to try, he went RIGHT back to his old song-and-dance of "I don't know what I want".

Yeah, but while he "doesn't know" for the PAST 4 MONTHS STRAIGHT (we aren't talking like he's been saying this for a few weeks, this has been since the END OF AUGUST he's been pulling this routine)-- he's having his cake and eating it too-- seeing as I am trying ultra hard to meet his every need-- and doing nothing in return at all. Yeah, maybe this is my "punishment" and my "dues" for what I did. But it still seems sometimes I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. And, ironically enough, I said that a few times when he was in the thick of his very involved EA last year... that it just seemed I was MISSING something.

The only reason I'm still plan A'ing at this point is because I feel that my plan A from September to mid-November was really weak. I didn't know about Plan A, or MB. I think mid november was when I really started Plan A'ing for real. Plus, even though I had tried to instate NC with OM, until I changed my phone number about a month ago, he kept texting me for whatever reason (I never responded, and there were only a few). But now he truly really has no way to get a hold of me, I work in a secure building, he doesn't have my phone number, and doesn't know where I live. Poof, he's GONE. Thank DOG. So, for those two reasons, I am still going to plan A for awhile, barring that these conditions continue. I think I have an internal deadline of Valentine's day-ish before I go plan B (which is going to be difficult in my situation-- moving out and all... arg-- I don't want to think about it now and hope it doesn't come to that).

RIM

KWIM = Know what I mean. But maybe you knew that and were teasing.

So, yesterday my H tried to suck me down again-- making "foggy" comments, and I tried some of Orchid's reverse babble on him... it seemed to work well. I refused to let him drag me down and drag me into LB... I reiterated over and over again that I was a different person and wasn't going to let him drag me down, and that I was confident in my future and in our future, but I coudln't build a future for us without him. At the end of it, I felt OK-- much better than I do when I respond with my "usual" responses (either letting him drag me into merry-go-round discussions about the past, or letting his fog talk really upset me and then I start with the begging and pleading). I just didn't do any of it. I did some reverse babble... and lots of reiterating that I was a stronger person.

He tried every button there was. I told him I forgave him for what he did, and that that made me feel better also, that it was like a weight lifted from me. And that forgiving him meant that I wasn't going to use his past behavior as an excuse now, and that I wasn't going to bring it up anymore as ammo. That I was moving on with my life from the past... that didn't mean I forgot it, or that it went away, but that I was in a better place and wasn't living with one foot in the past, and if he wanted to "live" there, that was fine, but I wasn't letting him drag me there anymore. That it was time to move on and heal, and I was healing myself, with or without him, and that I wanted to help him heal, but he had to let me help him heal... (he says "he'll be fine" and "he doesn't need help" ya, right...).

I also told him if he wanted to DISCUSS like adults the past, we could do that (concerning my behavior, etc), but that I was not engaging in any mud-slinging about it, and that if he chose to do that, I wasn't going to listen or take it, that I would leave until he calmed down enough to discuss like adults.

I felt OK at the end of it all... I don't know how he felt... probably beweildered at my response. Crazily enough, he actually seemed somewhat more receptive last night to me than he has been in the past... weird.

I gave him my apology letter today. He hasn't said a word about it, although did say earlier today that he's "still trying to figure things out" still. I asked him if there was any emotional affairs going on or anything, and he said no (although, that is what he said last time too, and he was lying..).

And then-- the best part-- I think he was getting frustrated at my refusal to "stoop" to his level, and he got all annoyed and said to me "I didn't know I was talking to GHANDI". HAHAHAHHAHAA... I almost lost it. But it sort of empowered me too... kinda reaffirmed that I must be doing a good plan A... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RIM

Ghandi, that's too much. LOL
You seem to have done quite the turn arround this week, keep it up.

Things have been going OK the past few days. We haven't had any meltdowns at all since I stood up to his last one (not that I expect that they are over, but maybe that will help a little).

We are going to visit his family across teh country for 10 days and leaving on Monday. I will be left alone with my MIL for extended periods of time while the "boys" go golfing. She is sort of overly opinionated and is of the mind-set that her children can do no wrong (more so than most mothers). She has been known to make excuses for her children for some pretty bad behaviour in the past that really wasn't excusable.

Anyways, she does not know of my A (I think?)-- but she does know that I moved out for awhile and that things were bad between us. She blames this entirely on me... and things between us have been rather frosty for the past year (well, they just don't talk to me, since they live across the country I don't have to deal with them often). She sent my H a pretty crappy birthday card this year about how she would love to see him on his birthday but she knows that I don't want him to see her and want to keep him away from his family, so she accepts this (?!?!?!!? not true AT ALL... and if anything it is the EXACT opposite...).

I know they think I am evil and that he should divorce me. His mom is very passive aggressive (she showed up last year unannounced until she arrived in the airport and called us to pick her up-- to "check" on us. yeah, whatever).

The other day I tried calling her, and she picked up and then made and excuse why she had to get off the phone quickly, and then said she'd call back in a few minutes when she was done with something, and never did (this was over a week ago).

I am scared in dealing with her, and scared she is going to try to influence my already fence-sitting H away from me. I don't want to get into everything that happened with her, it not her business, and I don't want to start mudslinging because I'm sure she has an excuse for everything my (very imperfect) H has ever done "wrong" and all that is going to do is anger me very much. I have forgiven him, I meant that, and I am not going to use what he's done as an excuse for my behavior.

Advice??

RIM

ADvice for coping with your MIL while H is golfing with the boys? Be polite, don't let her goad you into an argument. If you think she's trying to provoke you, either play deaf or misinterpret/mishear her remark as something positive. DO NOT be provoked by her.

Plan for how you will occupy your time. Take some books. If you have a hobby, take something related to the hobby to work on. Take stationery and plan to write letters. Take walking shoes and go for lots of long walks. Can you research special events close to her home that you'd like to go to? Stay busy, both in and out of the house, to reduce the time you have to converse one-on-one with her.

RIM!!! I see your online, welcome back. I hope your holidays were good. How are things with you? Any progress with your H?

I'm digging my thread out of the depths! I am back from my 10 day visit to the in-laws... which went amazingly well. They were very nice, my MIL did not pry as much as I thought she would, and we actually got a very nice email from them saying that it made them happy to see us so happy together.

H was very, very nice for the majority of the time we were there. Almost like the "old him". I gave him a new wedding band on new years eve, and told him it was a symbol of my commitment to him and our marriage-- and that he could wear it on his hand when he was ready to also make a similar commitment to our marriage. For now, he is wearing it on his chain that he wears on his neck, because he's still in this "I'm not ready to commit" phase. Sigh.

For those of you telling me to spy more, I have managed to do some more spying, and still have come up with nothing. I really don't think there's anything going on, unless he's become REALLY good at covering it up. I read a suggestion today about looking at phone calls made from a cell that is used for work too... the suggestion was to write down all the calls in the call log and then compare that to the bill at the end of the month (when my H was in his EA, he deleted all the calls to/from the OW from the call log, the only reason I realized it was there was an OBSCENE amount of calls at the end of the month (like 3 a day, easy to spot, especially when it was to a weird area code). So, I don't think he'd be dumb enough to call that many times again, so I'll try doing that again.

Since we came home, he's had one instance of backsliding with the whole "I don't know if this is worth it, etc etc". We had a very good weekend this weekend and have had a very good week thus far. Well, in terms of no fighting and him being more perceptive. He still hasn't committed to the marriage and a lot of my ENs currently are going unfulfilled... but that is what Plan A is all about, isn't it?!?!

The only negative thing is I found out that he's still looking for other jobs half way across the country... I laid down the law concerning that. His last (involved) EA started when he went to interview for a job across the country... (I thought he was just going for work, not interviewing...) and he took her out on a 3 day date. So-- I told him I wasn't exactly opposed to moving across the country with him, if that is what he decided-- but if there was going to be ANY interviewing, he was taking me with him, period, end of subject. I didn't trust him to go alone. I said if the company was that serious about hiring him, surely they would fly out his wife to check out the area too, and if they wouldn't, well then I guess he better start saving for a plane ticket. He said he wasn't going to argue about it, but he didn't "agree" with it (meaning that he had to make a lot of sacrifices and do a lot of bending for me, and he doesn't feel he should ahve to do any for me...), but I told him I am not bending on that... and I meant it. I don't think that is that much to ask, given our history.

Well, hopefully things continue being good... just digging my thread out... I'm not gone yet! Things are going better!! Hopefully stay that way!! Plan A is working, hopefully! I just need him to stop living with one foot in the past, and stop using the past as an excuse for being crappy now. I am getting better at not taking "crappy" behavior from him, (but without love busting), and not expecting anything in return. He's pretty much immersed himself in work recently, and has been avoiding all relationship talk. That's OK with me, because all he ever has to say is nonsense anyways... so unless he has something productive to say, all he does is frustrate me.... so we avoid relationship talks.

I must say I've become proud of my plan A recently... I think I'm doing a really strong showing. The hardest thing for me is not to beg and plead when he starts backsliding.... I guess that is probably what I need the most help with still. When he starts with the whole "I don't know what I want" and then telling me that I can't help him, and he doesn't need help (he says that a lot... I usually reply with "even spiderman needs help sometimes"-- a line from one of his favorite movies, and just leave it at that), or that he's "just fine" (clearly...). Or that it is easier to just run away and start over. What do I say/do? I've tried some reverse babble, but usually once he starts sliding, he just keeps right on going no matter what I say or do. So-- I was thinking my new approach would be to let him know that I'm here for him if he wants me to be... but if he wants to just berate me over and over again and not do anything constructive, that I would just leave him alone until he's ready to discuss or just move on. The problem is that he SUCKS me into begging and pleading (which at this point, I think he actually, sadly, likes...) and I get sucked right in... and then the whole things spirals out of control and ends up with me feeling like crap at the end.... I guess I need to know how much to protect myself, and how much to help him... how do I help him when he's like that?? It seems all he wants to do is push me away...

Hopefully (fingers crossed) I won't ever have to go to plan B... Plan A seems to be going somewhat well (although he blew off spending time with me as I write this to do work all night on his computer, even though that was a sore spot with us before the A started, but I said nothing... I even picked up the whole house and cooked dinner and everything while he worked... )

Any more suggestions anyone? I'm here to learn!

RIM

Hey RIM, glad to see you are back! And glad things are looking a little better.

Sounds like he is responding to your Plan A. I would steer clear of the R and A talks right now. See if you can get him to date you again...go out and have fun, ask him to put all this stuff on the back burner for a while so you can reconnect on a romantic level.

I realize you have both made mistakes, but he is obviously very hurt about everything that has happened, and rather than get into a drag down fight about it, just look him straight in the face and say "I am very sorry that I hurt you. I know I did things that will take a while for you to get over. I have not been in contact with OM and I will continue to honor that commitment to you."

You do not trust each other right now, and that will take time. There's no quick fix, as you know. Remember, Plan A is as much about you and working on yourself to be a better person as it is about filling his EN. Have you filled out the questionnaire? The Ghandi comment was great-that's why you must keep up that kind of response. He says "I'm sick of this and I don't know what I want!" You say "Me too! What would you like for dinner." The Spiderman comment is pretty funny, too.

Just stay the course for now. He hasn't gone anywhere yet, so keep plugging away...

Glad you're back!

Funny thing...

So last night, I was EXHAUSTED, from dealing with this, work stress, stress from other family sources, you name it. So-- I was admittedly slipping a little in my Plan A. Or just not being as attentive to my plan A as normal. I just didn't have the energy last night. I didn't un-do anything, I just didn't do much WORK towards plan A either (I really just vegetated on the couch with the dog all night... I was so tired).

When we went to bed, hubby was VERY snuggly (more so than normal), and asked me what was wrong... I said nothing-- and he replied that i had just been "Off" since I came home from work. I just said it was just a long day and I was tired (which was true). He sorta seemed upset about it, and was trying "extra" hard to be snuggly and talk to me.

But then I was thinking about it, and was thinking that this was a sign my plan A was really working... (right??)... that I back off of my plan A for ONE night (and heck, I wasn't even CLOSE to a plan B!) and he gets all upset because he's missing the stellar wife I've become recently? And heck, all I did was not put the effort and work into it that I have been recently for one lousy night because I was just too exhausted last night...

GO PLAN A!!! Just too bad he's still too stubborn to wake up and start putting some reciprocal effort in.... Oh well, I'll still keep plugging away...

Lala-- I'm glad to see things have been going well over in your camp still!!! Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well though (I've been following threads, but not posting recently....).

RIM

RIM,

He might just have been scared. Just a little threatened by a sudden change. Do YOU feel better today? If you give him a little ego boost today, He'll probably forget it ever happened. Even a little note or voice mail telling him you appreciated his attentiveness would probably do the trick.

I did apologize to him this morning for being "cranky and tired" last night. I wouldn't really say I was actually cranky, just more tired and not putting in the effort.

Although... and this one through me thru a loop... this morning he asked me if "OM had been at the house last night". (?!?!?!??!). TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY NOT TRUE. He had gone to get his hairs cut last night after work, and I beat him home by about a half hour or so. He thought he saw OM's car on our street and OM in the car on his way home (100% not true...). That kinda through me through a loop. I told him absolutely not, that OM was NOT at our house (ugh, makes me sick to think about), and then apologized that he even had to think that in the first place.

I just hope he believes me. It IS true. God, I would NEVER EVER EVER do something that stupid, ever ever ever again. (For the record, OM was never at our house anyways, other than to pick me up for a conference way before our close friendship and A started anyways).

I guess maybe that is why he thought I was being "distant" last night. Ugh. I should have just got off my fanny and put in the effort. I'm sure he's thinking now I was distant last night because I had OM over. ARRRGGG!! All of it just NOT TRUE!

Did I deal with that sufficiently? Anything else I could/should have done?

RIM

I would be kind of freaked out if I saw what I thought was the OMs car, and then got home and WW was distant.

The only thing I see you could have done is to have asked him what was wrong. (I understand you were not in the best state of mind). But you both would have slept better. Don't beat yourself up though, because by him apologizing as well tells me he wasn't sure of what he did see.

What are you doing today? What EN are you planning to meet?

No, I had NO IDEA last night he was freaked out, until we went to bed. And even then, he didn't really mention it, he just asked ME what was wrong, and said I had been "off" since I came home... I just said I was tired, which was true. There was really no reason for me to ask HIM what was wrong, he was on his computer all night doing work, I came home, made dinner, cleaned it all up, and then vegetated on the couch. He promised me he'd be done by like 830, but ended up working until 11, but I didn't say a word (even though that drives me UP A WALL...that was one of my main issues before, that he put work before me all the time...). So, I guess I had no reason to suspect anything was wrong with him... he was very attentive and affectionate last night.

Tonight is his "guys" poker night. I say "guys" because sometime the guys bring their wives/fiancees/girlfriends, but it is primarily a guys night most of the time. I have a class that I take on Wednesday nights, for my degree. Tonight I should get done with class early though, so I offered to come to poker night after class, if he wanted me there. I told him it was up to him, if he wanted me there, just say so, and I'd be there. If he just wanted a guys night, then I'd go the gym after class and then go home and wait for him. So I left it up to him.

I've been laying on heavy with the admiration EN recently, since he rated that his top one. I've also been doing the majority of the house work, since he's been really busy at work, and not saying a word about it. Just doing it without asking, and "taking care of him" of sorts while he's busy at work. And we joined a gym together for the new year...how's that for some RC?? (another high rated EN...). And have been dredging up all of our stupid little inside jokes and everything...

Oh, and I asked him out on a date for Friday. Now I need to come up with a solid plan for that. He said yes, (obviously). I was thinking dinner and a movie (he loves to go to the movies), but there's really not any good movies out either of us would really enjoy, I think.... and we already saw Atonement...
Need to think on that one...

RIM

RIM,

It sounds like you're doing really well. Here's an idea for your date. (If there is no good movies that is). Do you have a pool hall/bar in town. Not a place were it's all smoky and the pool playing is serious. It's a great way to meet RC. The place we use to go to also had a little ounge with leather love seats and a fire place, so we would play for an hour than sit and chat for a while after that.

Keep it up.

How many did they cut? I hope they got ALL of them!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

See, this is what I meant about really making him feel secure. That would have been the perfect time for you to look him straight in the eye and OWN what happened and ENSURE him that you will never disrespect him that way again. He needs to be able to trust you again, and the fact that he would even think that tells me he needs more assurance from you. What you are doing is great, but he is hurting and he is reaching out to you. Be there for him 100%.

Good luck tonight and Friday!!

ROFLOL!!!

He has a dentist appointment today at noon, and I asked him if he wanted to get lunch or coffee afterwards before he goes back to work.. (I have to teach a class at 2 though, so we'd ahve to be done before that...). He's been kinda quiet (well, we only talk online all day at work) all day, so I asked if he was OK, and he said "not really" and then left for his appointment. I said I was sorry that he wasn't feeling great today, said thank you for cuddling me so much last night, that I really enjoyed it (very true), and that I'd love to see him for coffee or lunch.

I sense some backsliding and doubting going on with him today. I said "I'd love to know what is going on in that head of yours behind those pretty blue eyes of yours.." (he knows I love his eyes...). But he didn't respond. Sigh. Today is going to be a rough day.

I'll let you know if he decides to meet me for coffee and lunch, or asks me to go to poker later. I have a feeling he'll blow me off for all of the above (what he usually does when he gets in these moods), but I can't beg anymore. If he blows me off and decides he's going to spiral down this road of doubt, I have to let him go, and not beg and plead and get desperate... this is going to be hard.... he usually pushes me away every time this happens and says he doesn't need my help, etc etc, and there's nothing I can do. He just starts acting distant and weird. I guess I just haven't come up with a solid plan for dealing with these mood swings he gets, or anything that works. I would really like to be able to make him feel better, but it seems I'm not very good at that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And really, at the end, it just seems we are BOTH miserable-- no matter how hard I try. But I also know I tend to fall into the trap of begging and pleading and saying over and over again how much he means to me and the relationship, and how hard I'm trying and going to try... blah blah blah... and I don't think that accomplishes anything.

Do you have any suggestions for dealing with these mood swings?? I really am at a loss as to what to do. They only seem to happen when we are separated... they typically happen during the day, when we are both at work, and typically when he is "bored". Today he is working from home because he had a dentist appointment, so I think he has more time to sit around and mull-- and that is when we get in trouble. When we are together, things are really fine, and he had really come around. But once he gets in these moods, its like he wants nothing to do with me. So, should I just let him go, or try to "convince" him to "see" me and talk to me?? I've been trying the latter, but it just seems to frustrated me, and make him miserable? But I don't want him to think I'm not trying either? Grrr...

Hoping today doesn't continue to slide downhill... its been so good for so long... guess it can't last forever. Sigh.

RIM

And yes, Lala, they did get ALL of them!!! (or at least as far as I can tell... I'm not a hair dresser!)

RIM