RIM...the thing is...emotion abuse isn't the same as physical abuse...but it's still ABUSE. I would agree with not enabling him or letting him goad you into a place where he feels justified verbally assaulting you. But these are delicate situations, and I think you should be very careful. People with these types of issues show very little restraint when they are in the throws of their anger. It's just not healthy. He should be in IC NOW!

Yeah, he went to IC for awhile for anger management... and he said that the counselor would just him MORE angry, and then throw him out on the street when the session was over. I would say, he came away from those sessions MORE angry than when he started...

So... because of that, he refuses to go back to IC. I mentioned to him last night that he needed to be able to control his emotions (anger, specifically), and if he really couldn't, then he needed to get help. He just stared at me icy and then said "I need to leave". And walked away. Typical response.

Sigh. Although, after I admittledly did some enabling, and some begging and pleading... I told him that what I needed from him was for him to give me a hug or whatever and express that he still cared about me after he was so mean to me-- or one of these "incidents" happened. I said it was up to him... he could storm out of the house again, and hurt me like that again, or he could come downstairs and give me a hug before he left.... he sat upstairs for a few minutes after I walked away, and when he came downstairs, he did give me a hug (although didn't say a word, and wasn't a very affectionate one...), and then went to the grocery store and came back. And that was when he started acting like nothing had happened at all. He went back to being all sweet and nice. WTF??

I just don't get how the anger gets flipped on and off like a switch... and he just BOTTLES it all up instead of DEALING with the issues causing the anger. He just comes home and acts like nothing happened.

And yes, I know that a lot of this constitutes emotional abuse. But, what most WS do to their BS is also emotional abuse. And trust me, this IS NOT going to be tolerated... plan A has an ending... either both spouses stepping up and doing their part (I think I'm doing a fair job on mine!) or, plan B and separating myself from him.

For now, because I've seen progress, and because the meltdowns are fewer and further between than before, and also not quite as bad.... I'm going to stick with the plan A and bettering myself and hoping that he follows my lead in bettering himself, to the way he promised me he could be. If not, well his loss.

And, fyi, many of these problems were also problems back before my A. He really has gone back to the way he was before. I'd say in some respects, its even worse, but these were essentially my problems/issues beforehand. He's actually really good at meeting EN.. but the problem is, he's also really good at ruining that all with some massive LB. I guess it is a double edged sword. Although recently, there's been no EN meeting at all... And I did try talking to him about these... but he doesn't listen and didn't listen back then either. He can't talk about these things without getting all fired up and ensuing meltdown, and my ensuing enabling... oi, the merry-go-round!

I'm just not riding it anymore! He gives that merry-go-round a push, I'm JUMPING OFF! Not enabling him is going to be hard. It is hard because of my personal nature, and also because now I think I've been enabling even more because of my GUILT. I've paid my price, I've made myself a better person... I'm not taking the meltdowns and abuse anymore. Those are ALL HIS to deal with. He can ruin whatever he'd like with it. I'll just go do whatever myself then.

RIM

Hi RIM,

You need to dig deep on this anger issue. You're saying all the right things but I've got two questions you need to ask yourself... Would you follow through with calling the police and leaving him? And dig even deeper for this one... Are you sure you’re not excusing the behavior?

We are not trying to give you a hard time, but some of the behaviors you describe are very scary. Look I get mad too, but I have never lifted a hand on my W or my DDs. I know you say he was drinking, and I can't relate to an angry drunk (I'm more like dance in the rain in my underwear drunk). Just be very, very, very careful, and make sure can answer those questions in complete honesty and openness to yourself.

Oh ya - AO is angry outbursts.

So, one thing I've thought about, and maybe would like some feed back on-- is writing his parents a heartfelt letter explaining some of this. About how I really want to work on the marriage, but he is really making that difficult, and pretty much is being a pretty terrible person anymore.

I don't want to turn it into a finger pointing exercise, and I certainly don't want to go into details with his parents about individual discresions. Just a more general overview of the issues I'm having-- which I would think any parent should be concerned about in terms of their son.

They aren't fully aware of all of our situation because they live 3000 miles away from us, and we see them on average twice a year for a week or so, and that's it. Sometimes even less than that, but he still talks to them frequently. Since we've begun having "issues" they hardly talk to me at all anymore. But my last trip out there was nice, and they were very nice to me (over Christmas). I thought maybe this might be like my "version" of a the "stick" part of plan A. Exposing his own "issues" to other people rather than covering them up for him.

My reasons I haven't done this yet are several. First off, I don't know if this is overstepping my boundaries. Secondly, his parents are also enablers. His mother, in particular, is WONDERFUL at excusing some pretty horrid behavior on the part of her children, or blaming it on other people. I realize this is a mother thing, (and I'm not a mother, so maybe I can't relate), but at some point, you have to realize maybe your child has a serious problem and you should stop making excuses for them. They blame me for all of this. Thirdly, although they suspect, he has not confirmed with them that I had an A. So, I don't want to open that can of worms. The A is over, and revealing it now is only going to be damaging in our relationship with his family. They also have no idea of his As, whatsoever.

So, I've thought of writing them a letter, explaining some of the emotional abuses I'm going through, but of course keep it positive (this is their kid!) and tell them how much I want to save the marriage, and how much I believe in him, but that I realize that this change has to come from within and that I am doing all I can, but he seems to be only destroying us rather than working with me.

What do you think? I go back and forth on this. Part of me thinks that they would maybe help, and part of me thinks that somehow it would all get blamed on me, or that they would say that it is our problem, or something like that. Plus, I don't want to write the letter, have hubby get all mad, and then open the A can of worms in retaliation-- which I could see happening. And I'm sure that if he opened that can of worm... they would TOTALLY take his side.

I guess that is part of this too... he sits here and tells me over and over again that these feelings he has are "normal" for someone that's gone through what he has. Fair enough. But.. his way of dealing with it is NOT NORMAL. And not constructive, for him as an individual, or us as a couple.

And he seems to think that normal couples don't ever have to talk about what they need or expect from the other person. He says people don't talk about that... wtf?? He says we shouldn't have to-- that that proves we are screwed up. Arg. He really has some immature views of marriage. And he's a year older than me too!

Sigh. What do you think?

RIM

OK TMTS-- so in the anger issues...

I would say I AM serious about the whole leaving him. The police thing, I will admit that maybe I'm not as serious about. It depends on WHAT he did too, I suppose whether or not the police would be involved. He pushes me again, and yeah, I'll leave-- and I'll admit, I probably wouldn't call the police. But if its more serious than just a push, then yes, I'd call the police. That's the truth, and what my gut tells me I'd do.

And, I think it would be hilarious to see a drunk dance in his underwear and sing. And sometimes hubby can be that sort of drunk (when we were in college, he was!), but more recently, it is this ugly drunk he becomes-- but only with me. Sigh.

That's the other thing... he's DAMN GOOD at hiding all of this from other people. Everyone else, his friends, his family... thinks he's this upstanding, good husband. He is GREAT at putting on an act in front of other people. He really, really needs other people's approval in life. He's one of those people that tries extra hard to get everyone to like him, he's a life of the party kinda guy. And he has a ton of friends, but no really "good" friends anymore. Everyone thinks of him as sort of the fun guy to hang out with, but not someone for anything deeper, you know? But, they also don't see this dark side of him ever, either. He's very good at making himself seem like a caring, empathetic individual towards other people. Its just he's not that way when it comes to me. So-- I struggle there too, because people look at me like I have three heads when I tell them this about him. Even my own friends didn't really get it at first.... didn't really think he was capable of this, and I was exaggerating.

Its an uphill battle. It'd be easier if he was an across the board bad person. But its just with me.

RIM

I was thinking this as soon as you talked about not mentioning it. If you’re going to do this, I think you're setting yourself up unless you become completely transparent with them as well. I wouldn't do it in a letter, not personal enough. You can say you want your marriage on paper but if they hear the conviction in your voice, that's a different story. Should you do it? That depends on how they would take the news of the A first. I think it would be a mistake to tell them that your H is, blah, blah, blah... oh and BTW I had an A. Full disclosure first, tell them your plan then ask for help. That the way I told my IL, but then again I always got along very well with them.
Now one more thing you need to consider... had your parents come to you when you were foggy, would it have changed your mind? Sorry, I know I'm not helping much just making you think allot.

Well, my parents are enablers on my side. My hubby DID tell my parents. They didn't really care. They aren't a huge fan of my hubby to begin with, and my parents have many, many issues of their own, and I also have a few issues with them and my childhood-- but without typing you my life history and being whiny... the short of the story is, my parents ENABLED my A. They ENCOURAGED IT if anything. There's a backfire on the stick part, now isn't it??!

I think maybe if I had a close relationship with my parents, and respected them and their opinions, it would have. But, I don't have that. I am not close with my parents. I pretty much raised myself from about the age of 16 on. My parents are pretty emotionally distant.. my father was pretty much non-existent in my life. He lived in my house the whole time I was little, but never interacted with me, at all, he was just THERE. That's it. And my mom is a drama queen that would drag me and my brother into her fights with my dad and force us to pick sides-- and would get mad at us if we didn't pick her side and get mad at my dad too. Screwed up, eh? And, my parents marriage is anything BUT a model marriage. No As that I know of though... and I think if my dad ever had an A my mom would have told me...

OK-- so enough whining. Long story short-- I can't really answer that question. I can answer it in theory and say that I THINK that if I had a close family that I respected, that the answer would be yes. But, I can't really say that for sure. His family is totally different than mine.

And, I think you are right about full disclosure. Keeping my mouth shut for now I think is best.

RIM

Your really going to start to dislike me...

So that tells me that it's in him to give, so why doesn't he give you the same respect?

If this is getting to bo too much for one day let me know. We'll pick it up later becasue you have some thinking to do.

Yep, sure does. And he is avoiding the issue. The reason his IC probably made him mad, is b/c he was trying to point the finger elsewhere and the doc said "nope-your issues, your fault." And he blew up. I don't know...sounds like he will be a tough nut to crack- to put it VERY lightly. And now you've done something that justifies his anger. YIKES!

This is all classic "abuser" behavior. Especially the huge explosion and then acting like nothing's wrong...flipping on and off like a switch. A "normal" (for lack of a better word) person would take a LONG time getting that riled up, and then once they did, it would be hard for them to sweep it under the rug, or act like nothing happened.

And TMTS, thanks for that visual of you dancing in the rain...GOOD GRIEF...like Mrs W would say-silly foreigners! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, no TMTS-- I appreciate the questioning and making me think...

but you know what?? I think I'd appreciate a big cushy couch to lounge on while I answered these questions of yours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I think next time you should bring one of those by my thread before we start with this "deep thinking" stuff!

I think he tends to be one of those people that will treat you like gold until he knows he's "got" you. He treated me like a PRINCESS in the early days, let me tell you!! It was GREAT! Very, very giving. Very apologetic and concerning.

Well, I think it is the whole taking for granted thing. And I guess that is part of what hurt me so much about his most recent A. He treated her LIKE GOLD. -- exactly the way I said I always wanted to be treated. Called her every day, several times a day. (when he was out of town, he'd never call me. I'd go DAYS at a time without hearing from him. And if I got angry about that, he'd tell me I was being unreasonable to expect a phone call a day. Whatever.). Took her a flower and took her out to 2 fancy (expensive!) dinners. Rubbed her feet when they hurt. Sent her flowers with a little sappy note (and his little personal nickname for her) on her birthday. Sent her flirty little texts telling her how hot she was. Oooohhh... I need to stop this now, or I'm going to go downhill and ruin my plan A!! I don't want to open this box of hurt right now!!!

Oh-- but he justifies his entire A. Says it would have never happened if I wouldn't have cheated on him. Maybe true-- but still-- that doesn't make it FEEL ANY BETTER! And the fact that he treated her the way I WANTED to be treated... grrr.... But he can't justify his first two EA... that happened beofre my A, and I didn't even know aobut them until my A.

So, I think he's taking me for granted, again.

The reason I'm still going with plan A, is that during my A, I turned into the alien, horrible WS that you read about here, and that your W is right now. I need to prove to him (and to myself) that I am NO LONGER that person before I can walk away. I am the same person I was before the A, only stronger, and not enabling him.

I truthfully think that maybe plan B will be the ONLY way to get him to wake up. But part of me thinks he's spiraled so far this time, that he may just run away rather than put the work in to fix it. But I guess at that point, that is not someone I want to be married to anyways, if he runs. (or at least that's what I'll tell myself to make myself feel better...).

Short story... he knows I "love" him. He has nothing to prove to me anymore. He has plenty to prove to other people. Not a good quality.

RIM

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I am a woman and always have been. I'm not sure if the emphasis on WAS is because you got the impression that I was once a woman and that I am not any longer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

A few folks thought I must be a man, I suppose based on my writing and the opinions I had expressed in regards of my support of men/father's rights in divorce & custody issues.

You're not being an idiot, BTW - things can get a little confusing here at times. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Did I answer your question clearly?

You did Graplin... and I guess I should have said "IS" a woman, not "was". I'm a research scientist by trade, not an english major, haha!

Resonance had also made the assumption on my thread that you were a man, saying that she had originally though you were a woman, but now she saw you were a man. That is where my question came from-- but I guess I still should have used the present tense!

Glad to know that you've always been a woman... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And sorry for the confusion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

RIM

See, I am getting to a point with all of this....

Remember when I asked you if he felt he had truly lost you?
You did think so but, ask yourself again.

RIM, this is the main reason I've been getting you to ask yourself these questions. I took my W for granted, and now I have lost her, and I will always regret not listening when she was begging for the attention she needed.

Ok, now I will show you something, but no making fun of. I wrote this to her about 4-5 days after D-day. I had just finished reading the 5 love languages.


Taken for Granted

The sparkle in your eyes was taken for granted
The curl of your smile that brightens up my life was taken for granted
Your cute walk was taken for granted
Your generous heart was taken for granted
The pleasantness you show towards other people was taken for granted
The way you care about everybody you know was taken for granted
The way to talk to the cats like they are people was taken for granted
Your love for life was taken for granted
Your laugh was taken for granted
The time your were there for me during difficult times at work was taken for granted
The love and care you show towards the girls was taken for granted
Your quick wit was taken for granted
Your love for all that lives was taken for granted
The time you take to keep yourself looking young was taken for granted
Your beauty was taken for granted
Your hot little body was taken for granted
Your sexiness was taken for granted
The peaceful way you look when your asleep was taken for granted
The passion you show when we make love was taken for granted
The comfort I feel when I’m with you was taken for granted

Your Love was taken for granted

NEVER AGAIN WILL YOU BE TAKEN FOR GRANTED!!!

With all the love in my heart until the day I die and beyond,

Now since then she has decided that she wants to separate, but this was to show you that it does happen.

Graplin...That's what I was saying...that I had thought you were a woman-and your link confirmed it.

Anyways...it is ultimately up to you to stay or go, RIM. If you need to prove to yourself (and him) that you are a different person, then go for it! But I wouldn't expect a darn thing from him. He has proven his unwillingness to change (and BTW-acting like that early in R and then turning ugly is also CLASSIC abuser stuff).

Blaming your A for his multiple A's, especially when most of them happened b4 yours is ridiculous, and you know it. I just think this M is (and has almost always been) quite dysfunctional, regardless of the A's. You are- IMO- beating your head up against a wall.

TMTS--

I would never make fun of that, and it made me tear up. I've really had enough of crying at work recently!!! That really is beautiful, and I really hope things work out for you.

Truthfully, I have a few emails along those lines from the early days of the A that he sent me. I'm not saying yours isn't valid... but I just wanted to show you that sometimes in the fog, you ignore things like that, even though that would mean the world to me right now-- those emails that were very similar to what you just posted, I ignored, or maybe they'd twinge my heart a little...

But, also, my hubby (although he did not know of plan A), would also intermix a lot of LB into his plan Aing me... and all those LB I would use as excuses for staying away and not working on things, in my own head. But he was working on himself then, but it seems he's given up on working on himself now.

I think if I just left now, walked away now, I haven't done enough to prove to him that I have changed back. I've only been solidly plan Aing since the end of November. Only a month and a half. And I've had a few trip ups along the way (Iike yesterday). I am going to make a solid showing through at least Valentines day. And I need to work out HOW I am going to do plan B. I cannot afford our house alone for long, and I doubt he'd leave anyways. So, I'd have to leave, but I don't know if that is a good idea--and I don't particularly want to sign a lease either, in case he agrees quickly to the terms. On top of that I have a large dog (rottweiler), that is my LIFE, and I HAVE to take her with me, wherever I go. She's my baby. I can't leave her behind, she's a huge furry support for me... and she's really "my" dog, he will take care of her minimally, but she's really my dog. Oh, and she's SUPER DUPER friendly... she's actually a therapy dog (goes to hospitals to help sick people emotionally and to put on little trick shows)-- so don't think I have a big bad rottweiler... but taking her with me somewhere is sticky... where the heck do you go with a 80 lb rottweiler!?!?

So-- what do we think about a comedy club tonight?? That is about the best I can think of... I really need ideas... what to do after dinner, that doesn't involve a lot of physical activity, as hubby just got home and I guess his foot really hurts (he had his big toe nail removed today).

I like Rotties... my buddy had one who though he was a cat and wouldn't leave you alone. She would whinper until you let her lay on your lap... then would nudge your arm as soon as you stopped petting her.



This is the kind of line that gives me hope. I just hope it twinged her heart a little.

Yeah, just keep going with the twinges. I can almost guarantee you it twinged. But, WS (at least I was...) are quick to dismiss that twinge they feel with ANY mistakes they percieve you make. So, keep on top of your game!! At least, that is what I'd do. I'd twinge, I'd start to melt, and then he'd make a "mistake", and I'd say to myself "ah-ha! see, I shouldn't be with him!"

That is the beauty of plan A, coming from the other side of it. You are taking that away from the WS... that ability to use those actions against you. All they have to use against you is the past. And if you fill that love bank, the past starts to slide away, and then you forget why you were so mad in the first place. That is kinda how it went for me.

Just be extra careful not to take it away. Because in my mind, as a WS, he's make a deposit of, say, $100, and then later "screw up" and make a withdraw. And maybe in reality, that withdraw was only worth about $10, but in my WS mind, I'd inflate it to $1000, and use that as an excuse to continue with the A.

Silly example maybe, but do you see what I mean?? So, keep up with that plan A. You are slowly taking that power away from her.

And it does twinge... we just don't let on because we are too far gone... but its there... and when you're alone, sometimes you lay there and wonder what you are doing, and why you are doing this. Just keep it up...


So, what about the comedy club for tonight?? that is really all I can come up with. I can get tickets online....

And glad you are a fellow rottie lover. I think it is a rottie thing that they are all lap dogs. I know someone else that has one that is a lap dog too, and mine certainly is also. She thinks she's about 20 lbs, and will climb in your lap, but really she's 80!

RIM

The comedy club is a great idea. We used to go there all the time.

OK, I made us reservations at the comedy club tonight. Some guy I've never heard of is going to be there, (Jo Keely??), but that's OK. Still something fun to do!

I also made us dinner reservations in the same neck of the woods, and there's lot of shops and stuff we can look in between dinner and the club... plus, there's lots of nifty little bars and some coffee shops we can go to too.

So he just IMed me and said "its been a rough day for him". I asked why that was, if it was work and his foot, or what? He said "the usual, what it is 90% of the time" (meaning my A...).

I asked if there was anything I could do to help. He said no. So, I just said, "I'm sorry babe, and I have a great night for us planned!" He said he'd try to break himself out of this funk beforehand.

If he decides he's going to throw a tizzy, and ruin tonight, then I'll just let him. Oh well. I can't keep rescuing him. (suiting up and putting my armor on, but hoping it is going to be a good night!)

RIM

RIM--ditto to TMTS on the comedy club--great idea! MyRev and I started going to those in the beginning of our recovery, and it's a wonderful date night! We continue to do so occasionally. You all need some laughs!!