One of those conditions is he agrees to some type of counseling. That was early this week. OM said no, counseling is for pu*****. So OMW said, we're done then. OM tried to call/text her all week and she didn't answer once. Well, in that email OMW said OM had agreed to counseling.

Good to see you are back. You have 2 things working for you right now. 1)OM is a cake eater and a serial cheater and has no desire to leave his W. 2) OMW has set boundaries that she will not back down from. Take good notes of how she is handling OM for when it is time for you to set your boundaries with WW.

I like the idea of walking up behind her and giving her a quick kiss on the head and walk away. Expect her to pull away and act disgusted but that will eventually go away. Do it quickly enough that she doesn't have time to back away. If she tells you not to kiss her tell her you are sorry but you thought she looked beautiful and felt the need to kiss her. Most women have affection as one of their top 5 EN. You will have to figure out some way of working that in with her.

If I remember correctly, she at one time talked about how she thought you were always telling her what to do in the past (you can correct me if I'm wrong). It was probably WW Fog speak but even so, admiration may be something else she desires right now. That was the case with my W. I wrote her a letter telling her about all of the things that I look up to her for. Career advancements, how great of a mother she is, etc. Try to give her specific examples of things that she has done that make you proud of her (i.e. how she stands up for what she believes in to her bosses, how she would stay up late and rock the kids when they would get sick). It might help remind her of what married life to you really was like, not the rewritten version she has in her head. And it will let her know that you were paying attention to all the little things she has done and accomplished.

The roller coaster ride is not a fun one. But it is one of the steps on the road to recovery. Depression from her is a good sign. Keep up what you are doing. You have a good ally in the OMW. The 2 of you can make sure the A is over. Hope you have a good weekend.

Thanks mvg, bhge.

I agree with your boundaries comment bhge. I've recently begun letting myself think about what I'm going to need from WW when it comes to recovery. Prior to this I hadn't even begun to think of those things as my whole focus has been to bust up the A. I wouldn't let myself think of the next steps because as long as the A was going on there was no point in thinking beyond that. Now that it seems to be over I've started letting myself think of what I'm going to need to move forward. You're correct that WW said to me one time that she didn't like me making her decisions for her. The exact quote was "I hate it when you make my decisions for me, I'll decide if and when to end it (the A)". Now I attribute that to fog speak. We always discussed major decisions together and came to whatever decision we did. Examples: Our decision to relocate for work (big mistake in hind sight as that is how she got hooked up with OM), my taking temporary assignments for work that took me away from home for different periods of time (up to 2.5 months), major purchases (cars, house, etc). One thing that may have stuck in her mind to have her say that was when we moved she was/is really unhappy in her job. She wanted to quit and leave the company. I never told her she couldn't, but pointed out that if she could stick it out in her current position for another year she would be able to transfer to a different position. I pointed out you really need to think if you want to give up 5 weeks vacation, 401K, retirement (our company's 401K and retirement plans are excellent) etc when you could move into a different position with our company in another year.
I know OM told her she should do what she wanted to do as far as leaving the company or staying. It's one of the things that WW said he did that made her feel so confident which is one of the things she "loved" about him. Now could I have worded it differently? Sure, but I know it bugged her that "they" had come to the conclusion she should find a different job and when I pointed out what she would be losing for just a year of being unhappy in her job it bugged her.

As far as what I'm going to need from her going forward, first and foremost, some type of counseling with MB. Ideally she'll agree to begin talking with SH with me. Would I be ok with doing the home DVD/book/exercises from MB instead if WW will not talk with SH? Not sure at this point. Guess I would be willing to try that and then gauge whether WW is putting a real effort into it. Another thing is more WW being more open with me. She had a difficult childhood, parents divorced when WW was 8 months old. Her mom remarried when WW was 4 and her step dad was verbally abusive to the kids and physically abusive to her mom. WW has trouble opening up with her most intimate thoughts with me. I know now that helped allow her to have this A. Another thing is WW is a flirt. Never really bothered me in the past as she always came home to me, but now I know I will not be able to accept that. WW has always had mainly male friends. In the past I was ok with it, but now I wonder if there is something in her that she needs male attention and this A was male attention to the extreme. Have I not been giving her the attention she needed? I don't know, I thought I was, but maybe not. But that's something we'll need to get to the bottom of.

Incidentally, last night WW went out after work for a while. When she got home I could tell she had been drinking and she did talk to me some (not angry so much, but...). When I went to bed I walked past her, reached down and gave her shoulder a squeeze and told her to have a good nights sleep. She didn't pull away from me when I did it, so that's a good sign.

Ok, I could go on and on (already have), but this really helps for me to write these things out.

Yesterday was the weirdest day. Hopefully you guys can help me understand if what happened is normal during WD or if something else is going on.

In the morning WW was quite the bit**. Wouldn't talk and if she did say anything it was kinda nasty. About mid morning WW and son were watching an older movie. I came into the room and noticed what they were watching and said "Hey, that's the first movie we ever recorded with our first VCR (which we got for a wedding present)". WW said "Ohhhh..the memories" in the most nasty, sarcastic voice you ever heard and then went stomping out of the room. I just kind of smiled to myself as I knew she would be in a mood after the previous night. Like I said before,
WW had gone out with the group from work and that is what she and OM had always done before prior to going to his apartment. I figured it would be a trigger for her and she would have a tough time with it.

But....shortly after, I took our son driving (has his temps) and when we got home I took a shower and went shopping by myself. When I got home, WW was decorating the Christmas tree so I went in the living room and started talking to her. She actually started talking back. And it was as close to a normal conversation we've had in a month. The rest of the day she continued to have civil conversations with me. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't like everything is "ok" with us, but it was definitely different.

That brings up my question. Does this sound normal during WD. It's been over a month since exposure to OMW day and her thinking OM ended it with WW. I know there has been some contact between them, probably as late as a week or so ago. If you read an earlier post of mine it seems to me that last Saturday there was a change in her. Almost like a turning point in their "relationship". Is it normal for her to have periods of time where she is totally nasty one minute and then shortly after somewhat ok towards me during WD? Does it sound like she's beginning to come out of the fog?

Trying not to get my hopes up too much, but I've really been trying to pay attention to her actions and not her words and her actions have been changing.

One other thing I've been thinking about the last week. Last Tuesday when WW sent me the extremely nasty email, part of her anger was concerning my idea to get our son a gun for Christmas. WW is strongly against guns in our house where I grew up hunting and having guns around all the time. I've always respected her wishes and not had guns in the house. In my reply to her I asked her opinion on that (POJA) and she went off. Well, if she wasn't planning on staying around, why would she care if I got our son a gun for Christmas?

Just seems she's beginning to come out of it. Am I reading this wrong?

It appears that WW is slightly starting to change.
If you know that there has been contact I would inform OMW.
Exposure is your best tool. Keep plan A'ing.

I don't know for sure that there has been contact. If there was it is by email/IM (through work). OM lives 4 hours away and OMW lives 1000 miles from OM.

I was just assuming there had been contact based on WW's actions last weekend. If there was contact it didn't go as WW planned (I'm making that assumption based on WW's anger/depression and OMW telling me OM had agreed to counseling to try and save their marriage).

My main question I guess is could someone start coming out of the fog even if there has been a recent contact? If that contact went bad, or not as WW intended, and last weekend was a turning point as I suspect, could she make the transition from WW to FWW in as short a time as a week or so? I'm not giving her the FWW label yet, but she seems to be making that transition.

My main question I guess is could someone start coming out of the fog even if there has been a recent contact?

I'm not sure anyone really KNOWS the answer to that but everyone probably has an opinion. Some believe WD doesn't start happening until after last contact is made. I believe it is possible that they might contact once and not set the WD back too much, depending on what happened in that contact. However, I do believe it will slow down WD even if it was an unenjoyable contact.

Expect your WW to be a bit** one minute and civil the next. The closer your WW comes to getting out of the fog the more time she will spend being civil. You will know when your WW becomes a FWW. When she is a FWW she will be sorry for what she has done. She will admit it was wrong. She will be doing EVERYTHING it takes to work on the marriage. Not just reluctantly reading a book because you want her too. She will not attempt nor accept any contact from OM. I've heard people say it takes anywhere from 4 weeks to 6 months after NC to go through WD. There are many factors that will affect it. How long A occurred, what the involvement in A was, the person themselves, etc. It probably took somewhere around 4 - 6 weeks after NC before I could tell. The first 3 weeks after DD they had talked 3 times that my W told me about and during that time I didn't see any improvement in our M. After those 3 weeks things started to improve and you could tell they were in NC and A was over.

Thanks bhge.

Weekend was kinda interesting. I already posted about her mood swings on Saturday. Sunday WW was kind of down in the morning, but i convinced her we needed to go Christmas shopping as we only have one week left before the holiday.

The first hour or so we were shopping she was down, not saying much, if anything. Then while we were looking for a new computer for our son her mood seemed to change some. We were looking at different computers and she had spotted one she thought would be good and I had spotted a different one. When I showed her the one I was looking at she said she didn't like that brand. I told her I was ok with going with the brand she wanted (POJA). The store was out of stock of the model she had picked out and another one that was close to the same. So WW says, "where is that one you were looking at"? I told her I didn't want to get it as she didn't like that brand and I didn't want to spend this much money on something she wasn't comfortable with. WW replies "Don't listen to me, every decision I make is wrong anyway". She held eye contact with me for a few seconds and then looked away.

Wow! She wasn't talking about only computers there. I said to her "why would you say that, I don't think all your decisions are wrong". Of course I wanted to say there's only ONE decision that you've made that was wrong, but I didn't. She just said something to the affect that she has made a lot of wrong decisions and then looked away. I didn't want to push it right in the middle of a store and I didn't want to drive her away by getting further in THAT conversation. I just left it go. Figured this was her first attempt to open up to me a little and I only wanted to reassure her that I wasn't going to beat her up when she finally wants to talk about the deal.

Rest of the day yesterday was pretty good (at least compared to the last month). Then this morning (what was that Elton John song?) The Bit** is back. I see this as a good sign that she's beginning to figure this out. Had a pretty decent period of somewhat normalcy yesterday and then back to depression/anger.

It's been over a month since exposure day and OM telling OMW that it's over. I know there has been some contact since, but I agree bhge, IMHO, if that contact went bad, it seems to me to not be as harmful to WD as contact that went good would.

And since last Tuesday night there has definitely been some change in her. Like when we were waiting to check out with the computer WW says to me (kind of laughing as she talked) "You know, we're never going to see our son once he get's that computer in his room". If she wasn't planning on staying she wouldn't have said something like that.

I think I need to just keep doing as I am. Not pushing anything, just being there, doing my best plan A. This morning I left her a card that said "Hope today is good and tomorrow is even better".

That's about it for now. Thanks for listening.

H4U:

You did good.

Keep it up.

Forgiveness, and her knowing that NO MATTER WHAT, you can make this right, is what your WIFE needs to see to banish WW.

"Making bad decisions" and then holding your gaze, and YOU not stating: "YES, you make bad decisions!"

Your showing her the way back HOME. And that is important. She has burned bridges, torched villages and poisoned wells. ANd she needs to cross back over that same terrain to get back HOME.

You have learned much. But please remember that.

The WW and W are in a struggle right now. Some days, some hours, some minutes, the WW gets the upper hand. ANd you will know when. And other times, W will have the upper hand. As NC is maintained, the W will get stronger.

She won't be a FWW for quite a while. Give it 6 months of NC to even contemplate the FWW label.

Increase your Plan A opportuniites. KEEP INCLUDING HER. Make it HER CHOICE to say NO. Include your SONS as often as possible. Make sure that they understand that for THIS holiday season, THEY need to be HOME.

Bad decisions can be made, but they do not have to continue being made.

Continue your counseling with SH. He will recommend a good time for you to get WW invovled with MB counseling. And he will halp you thru this minefield of withdrawal.

LG

Those are good signs H4U, glad to hear it! I think a little differently than LG, I think you should acknowledge that your WW has made some bad decisions, but tell her that you want to get past them. Don't attack her or beat her up, but don't evade it either. You both know she's messed up bigtime, there's no sense in acting like she hasn't. You want her to get to the point where she will talk about it with you and begin to work towards recovery, I think part of that is being able to admit the mistake, which it sounds like she's feeling out that territory.

Perhaps you could revisit the topic with her? Say something like "you know, the other day at the store you said something about making bad decisions and I didn't respond properly. I know you've made some decisions that have harmed our marriage but I think we can work through that damage when you are ready."

Just a slight difference in approach but it seems like you did well enough on your own. You want to take advantage of those chinks in her armor.

Thanks LG and TYK. And I know I'm not telling anyone here anything, but WD SUCKS!

WW is right back to anger/depression. It's really starting to affect me, but I think I've discovered that try as I might (after last Saturday's tiny bit of opening up), I am probably expecting something from her that she is not able to give right now.

I stopped by her work today, just to say hi and she was so cold it really threw me. But then on my way back to my office I realized I am giving, expecting something in return and that's not the way WD works. Kind of gave myself a personal 2x4. Assuming that WD started on the 8th when it seems the A ended in her mind, I'm only a little over one week into WD and I know from everyone here that one week isn't close to long enough before I start seeing a change, but after dealing with this whole A for 4 months now it's really draining.

H4U:

That's WHY they call it the roller-coaster.

But these little unexpected bits of kindness are remembered.

Stuff that taker of yours.

Time to GIVE.

Sorry. Seems like SHE SHOULD.

Yea, it's like that in the movies.

But not in reality.

SHE WILL. You and her just have to get to that point.

Please be ready for the evening when she rails at you about all your shortcomings and how great OM was. ANd you just get to say: "Then why isn't OM, HERE?" "I AM."

Please get ready, and understand what YOU need to know about what went on.

DO you need to KNOW everything, or do you only want to know the barest outlines?

Your choice. Think that thru. Sometimes knowing the details can be crushing, but the reality of what happened, is alot less than can be imagined.

I believe the timeline leading up to the A is the most important thing to know.

Because that road is still passable by someone ELSE in the future.

Your WW needs to learn how to BLOCK that road.

Many of the things that you will learn here at MB will go far into helping her BLOCK that road, but it is up to HER to close it.

Stuff the TAKER.

Work the unexpected bits of kindness. Have you sent that card yet?

Time after Time I have to ask.....

LG

Thanks LG.

Haven't sent the time after time card yet. I wanted to give her a card or two telling her I was thinking about her before going to the "heavy guns". Gave her the first card yesterday morning. And she's been nasty to me since. I think that's a good sign that she's working this through and she "hates" me for still being here. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like after her quote Saturday about all the decisions she makes being wrong that I don't want to push it too hard right now.

I've been thinking recently about what I'll need to know to move on. I'm not sure if I will need all the details, but one thing I do know is exactly what you said....How did you let your boundaries move to allow this to happen? What was going on in our lives/marriage that you allowed yourself to cross that line. That's the biggest thing I need. And getting to the point that she understands how she let that boundary be crossed so it won't happen again is going to be the deal breaker for me as to whether I continue in this marriage or not, because I will not go through this again, so if she can't figure out how she let it happen so it doesn't happen again will make my decision about our future that much easier.

Now that I think of it more, I probably will be one who needs to know the details. Like you said, the things I've created in my mind about what went on are possibly worse than what actually happened, so for me to get beyond it I feel like I'll truthfully need to know everything (and from one of the text messages I saw that he sent her I'm not sure what else she could tell me that could be worse for me to know).

I really value your posts LG (and everyone else too!). they help more than you can imagine.

Not a whole lot to report from last night. WW pretty much ignored any attempts I made to talk to her. I went Christmas shopping for a bit, did the trash takeout thing, did a load of laundry, made our son dinner and read for a while.

Told WW to have a good nights sleep and didn't get an acknowledgement of any kind. This morning I told her I hoped she had a good day and again, didn't even look at me.

Suprisingly, after my figuring out yesterday that I was probably expecting things from her even though I was trying not to, last night and this morning wasn't so bad for me. Maybe it was that personal 2x4 I gave myself, but I did those things last night without any consideration of whether I would get a response from her or not. It was kind of liberating in a way.

11 days into what I assume was the end of the A and possible NC (although I don't know for sure). I'll say it again, WD SUCKS!

One question. I've been talking with my friend D and she thinks that I should hold off on any more cards, notes etc to WW for another week or so. She thinks I should just let WW be alone with her thoughts/coming to grips with the end of the A before I resume the cards/notes. Others here have said those little notes/cards helped them get through WD and be more open to reconciling with their BS. What's everyone think? Should I continue with the cards/notes every few days or wait for a week or so before resuming like D says?

H4U:

You have to guage your WW on the cards, etc. Like I proposed, keep it light. Post-it notes, in places SHE can find them. And she doesn't have you THERE to react to. She will keep them.

Cards? With a message, but not HEAVY. And you only write in, "love you!" and Happy Holidays, NO dissertations.

Letters? Not right NOW. She will she them as critisism, and not react well. Later with those.

If you think WD is bad, remember the weekends she was at "the game...."

No THAT'S a bad memory.

But you have been doing well.

When's your next meeting with Steve of Jen?

LG

I hear ya LG. The card I gave her Monday said "hoping today is good and tomorrow is even better" in it and I just wrote "I love you very much". Next one I have prepared says "I'm here for you" and the one after that says something about a hug for you whenever you want it.

Yep, the game is a bad memory. OMW and I were discussing that last night. She says she got a call from OM when they would have been driving home together from the game and she didn't understand how OM could tell her he loved her with my WW in the car. I told her they probably stopped to use the restroom somewhere and while WW was in the can he called her.

Yeah, OM is one piece of work. Cake-eater to the max. But OMW also said he's really trying to get her to not divorce him, he's telling her he is so sorry, how can you forgive me, I love you, etc, so I am getting more comfortable with the A being over. Like I said before I may get the shock of my life, but with what OMW is saying OM is doing and WW's anger/depression, it seems like the A is done and NC must be somewhat in place.

Last I talked to SH we decided there wasn't much need to talk again until it seemed WW was coming out of the depression. SH wants me to get her to go to a MB weekend in January, but agrees I shouldn't push the issue right now as WW is still fog bound and won't be accepting of anything I propose right now. Let her start to get past the anger/depression some and then see if she'll attend.

One question for anyone who has gone through this. While WW is in WD/anger/depression will she be able to suspend that anger for short times and act normal with our kids and then right back to anger with me? WW will have short bursts of normalcy with our son's and then be right back to angry/depressed. Is that a normal thing in WD?

Last night was just kind of there. WW did talk to me a little bit (and I mean little) when I got home from work, and not in an angry way. I went shopping for a while and when I got home I tried to engage her in a conversation and she just looked at me and didn't say a word. On my way to bed I told her good night and gave her shoulder a squeeze and she didn't pull away, so that was a plus (I think). This morning I told her to have a good day at work and she just kind of looked at me with a blank face.

I woke up this morning about 4:45 and boy, I don't know what triggered this, but I had the most vivid images of them in bed together. That hit me hard. Haven't had those images for quite a while. But man, the tears flowed for a bit. I said a prayer and composed myself before WW came int the bedroom to shower and get ready for work, but holy cow, I didn't see that coming. Still has me a little out of sorts.

I understand there will be triggers, but where did that come from?

One question for anyone who has gone through this. While WW is in WD/anger/depression will she be able to suspend that anger for short times and act normal with our kids and then right back to anger with me? WW will have short bursts of normalcy with our son's and then be right back to angry/depressed. Is that a normal thing in WD?

Some where on the site someone had listed the grief process and I can't remember who or where...maybe someone will be able to link for you. IMO I think it is normal, just as BS's go thru so many different emotions. Hopefully it's just a matter of time before 'normal' starts to return.

I think those unexpected visualizations are normal H4U, I still get them, thankfully not as often as I used to. I don't even know if calling them a "trigger" is appropriate, as there isn't anything that really causes them that I can determine. A trigger is an event that causes the reaction, in my case, and it sounds like in your case to, there was no specific event that caused it.

Thanks mvg, TYK.

I just finished your thread tyk. Your stich gives me hope that when my WW comes out of this WD period she will want to make it work like your WW did/does. I've been seeing small signs that she's beginning to thaw, but it's not quick enough for me. I have to keep reminding myself it's a marathon and not a sprint, but it's still hard.

Funny story that I just thought of when I said she's beginning to "thaw". On my cell phone I have programmed in "ICE". Read somewhere that emergency personnel will look at cell phone contact lists to try and notify someone if there is an issue and the holder of the cell phone is not responsive. This article suggested that EMT's/Police will know who to call if you program "In Case of Emergency", hence ICE. So I did that. Now everytime WW calls me my cell phone shows ICE is calling. It's been pretty fitting and gives me a chuckle each time.

I stopped by WW's office today to say hi. She was pretty cold. Shortly after I got back to my office I got this email from her:

"Can you please not stop by my office anymore? I don't want to see you and there's no reason for you to stop by. I fear that you've mistaken my talking to you about the kids' Christmas as things being okay between us. Let me tell you…nothing has changed.

By the way, I think I should tell you that I will be staying at my Mom's on Christmas Day and not going to your mom's."

This is the reply I have ready to send:

"If you do not feel comfortable with me stopping by your office, I will respect your wishes and not. If you do not want to go to my Mom's for Christmas, that is your choice. I would like for you to come, but again, it's your choice.

I know things are not okay between us. I know you are angry with me. I understand why you feel that way. But I will say again, I believe in us, I believe in the future we could have a marriage that we would both be extremely happy with. I hope you'll give us that chance."

Opinions please. Is my reply ok?

Too late for comments. I just sent it. I'll let you know what she says, if anything.