Hope

Been keeping up - I like Lexxxy's reply.

They could be in contact through back channels in the workplace.

I am not seeing much hint she is ready to come back to the M.

Thanks Lexxxy. I appreciate you looking at this.

I'm kind of torn whether I feel like they're still in contact. Part of me agrees with you and another part thinks they aren't.

I didn't put in my previous post that when I told her OM wanted to work on his marriage she added "good for them".

The last time they saw each other was Dec 8. Since that time it's been a real joy in Mudville. She's been pretty down since which I attributed to WD. Might be missing something I guess.

I also probably didn't get across in my previous post that probably 3 times or so last night I told her that I wasn't going to keep living like we are. Maybe I didn't forcefully enough let her know that I would leave or I should have told her I would ask her to leave if things continued this way.

I plan on giving her a few days to think and then bring it up again. I'll keep it in mind that I need to let her know that I don't plan on putting up with this for too much longer.

Thanks again.

Hope,

If your WW is unwilling to work on your M then you need to get her out of your house and do a dark Plan B. She is not making a decision because she has no reason to. She can stay with you and still see OM and there are no consequences. How can she respect you with that attitude?

Tell her you want nothing more than to work on the M but if thats not what she wants then she needs to leave.

Goodluck

H4U:

I can't hang around.

PLEASE Call SH.

Look where you are with HIS help so far.

PLEASE call him again.

I'm glad you TALKED with her.

The possibility that DS was going to be TOLD the TRUTH caused that.

Yes, she neds more pressure.

Just call SH for the PLAN.

LG

Hope,

hhmm. You are really in a predicament... If she won't give you the truth you don't have much. I remember hearing about this sitch from my WW's OM and his now X. The X asked him what was going on and he wouldn't tell her and she replied if we don't at least have honesty we don't have anything! Very true. Divorce papers filed shortly thereafter.

Based on what you have written, I think your WW is at the end of the A too. Trust your intuition. You are closest to the sitch and would know if it was still going on. But if its been over since 12/8 and she won't give you any opps to engage in more than civil conversation... well then she just doesn't deserve you. IMHO.

I sense you will be more than fine without her, that you have reached the end of plan A where you have fallen out of love with her too since she is meeting what? None of your EN's!? No SF right, no conversation, no domestic support, no family commitment, no affection, admiration, etc. How much longer do you want to go on like this. Only you can decide.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Let me see if I can answer your questions.

MFIL - She hasn't seen OM since 12/8. Do I think the A is over? Yes and no. Am I going to put up with her making me live in limbo much longer, NO. I have had your exact thoughts the last couple of days, I want our marriage to work for everyone involved, but if she's not going to put in the effort, it's plan B time.

LG - Just called SH, he's pretty booked for the next week but they're going to see if he'll make some time for me.

Big - Like I said earlier, I do think the A is over, but I also think WW may be thinking she can string this along until she see's if OM's marriage falls apart or not. But again, I'm not sure they're even talking. No cell calls/TMs to/from him since late Nov. But I know they were in contact at work after that, but again, that Dec 8 episode is when I think OM ended it based on WW's anger and OM's interactions with OMW since. And even as late as today OM is telling OMW that he wants to work things out with her. I am at the point where plan B may be necessary. And you're correct, WW is not filling any of my EN's (well maybe domestic support, she has cleaned some and made some dinners). Not even family commitment as she doesn't think about me or DS in anything she does. Certainly no SF, affection, admiration, conversation etc.

Last night WW didn't come home after work. Of course I'm thinking she took off to see OM. When she came home about 7:00 I asked where she had been and she said shopping. I asked her why she didn't let me or DS know as we were wondering if she had been in a wreck or something. She apologized. But this is exactly why it may be time for plan B. I'm not going to continue in a marriage like this, where there is NO consideration for anything I'm feeling. It's like even if the A is over there is still this secret life she has going on and I'm not taking it any longer. And funny thing is that while I was sitting there it didn't really bother me if it comes to that. Guess that's when it's time for plan B. Anyway, when WW got home there were no excess miles on her car and OMW told me OM had replied to her from his work email yesterday so he didn't drive up here.

Part of me thinks after the conversation the other night that she's working through this to come to her decision. Last night after she got home it was actually kind of ok. We did talk some and it seemed like WW was trying. It's almost like she's floating some balloons to see if she thinks we may have a chance. I took that as a good sign, but then this morning I told her to have a good day and I'd see her tonight and she ignored me.

Another thought I had was that her moods seem to reflect her time at work. When she's had some time away she seems better but when she's getting ready to go to work etc her mood changes. Triggers for her? When we have our next talk soon I may ask her if she thinks we would have a better chance if we moved back to our hometown. My boss has already told me that all I have to do is ask and he'll arrange the transfer. That wouldn't remove her email/IM access from OM, but it would get her back to family and friends and remove her from the "triggers" of the workplace where the A started. Just a thought.

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate you help in my situation. It helps more than you could know.

Hope, I think that would be a GREAT idea. Remember, she is likely in WD and her work has got to be a major trigger for her. I think if you can move back to your hometown, it may give you both some strength to heal and start to move forward.

I realize that some posters have told you that she should feel the consequences of her actions, etc, but remember, this is not the MB state of mind. It is the LOGICAL, INTUITIVE state of mind that we have all been programmed with. I am not making any judgements here, because I sorta think if my sitch had been reversed, I would have sent my DH packing immediately. Not to say I wouldn't have taken him back if it ended and he "came to his senses" or whatever, but I am saying I can understand that frame of mind.

With that said, you must focus on your goal. Your goal is to have a happy M with your W of many years. You are not dealing with your W right now, you are dealing with a WW who is still trying to get over her "feelings" for OM. If you want to recover your marriage, the Harleys method is to weather this part of the storm as long as you possibly can. It is to control the things about yourself that you want to improve upon. It is to be still and let her be angry or hurt or whatever and know that it will pass, and to try your best not to internalize the things she does and says right now. It is to fill her ENs as much as you possibly can, expecting NOTHING in return. This is one of the most difficult things you will EVER do in your whole life. It isn't about pride or lashing out because you are justified in doing so, or teaching her lessons/educating her. That's why Plan A goes against the human grain. It is unfair. But it is effective in giving your M the best chance possible. That's really the bottom line, right? That is your goal?

Focus on the prize, not your feelings- as much as possible. Don't react to her, just let her be and try to let her know when/if she lets you that you love her and really want to make your M work. Tell her you want to be sure that you will both end up back in love with each other completely and that you are not looking for a M of convenience or placation. But mostly, just be still and let her work out the massive amounts of emotions that are going on inside of her right now.

If my H had "kicked me to the curb" (because I CERTAINLY deserved it) according to the "normal" way of thinking in society...where would our family be? Gone. Our boys would be devasted, our lives would be horrible. But, he stuck it out and now we have a chance to be happier than we have ever been. You can do what "feels" right according to the way society thinks you should, or you can do what has been proven to work time and time again on this site.

I am not saying any of this to make YOU feel guilty. YOU have done nothing wrong. NOTHING about Plan A with a surly wayward is fair to the BS! And only you know when it is going to affect you on a unhealthy level. What I AM saying is that your goal has always been to recover your M and get your loving W back. Therefore, the heck with what the world thinks you should do...do what can actually WORK to accomplish your GOAL!!!


Hugs and prayers, Hope...you can do this!!

Thanks LaLa. It's hard being on this board because everyone who has an opinion makes so much sense that it's hard not to say "I'll do that" and then others say something completely opposite and that makes sense so I begin to think "no, I'll do that".

I've got an appt with SH in 30 minutes. I guess I should not be making any decisions about how to proceed before talking to him. not that I don't appreciate everyone's commnets, but he's the pro and my hard earned money is going to him so I'll follow his advise.

But don't let that stop the opinions everyone. I greatly appreciate them. If anything they give me some hope from what has worked for others.

Good luck, Hope! Let the expert advise you, not us!!!

But DO tell us what he says!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Talked to SH yesterday afternoon. Here is the summary of our discussion.

We came to the conclusion that something has definitely changed in the "romance of the century". Strong possibility that the A is in fact over, but we don't know for sure at this point. SH thought it meant something when WW said Tues night that what she and OM did was wrong and hurt a lot of people. SH said "notice she didn't say what we are doing, she said what we did ".

SH thinks there is a possibility WW and OM are NC, but even if they still talk that the conversations are probably more like "how you doing" etc.

Given the other things I told him about the last few weeks, including our conversation Tuesday night SH thinks that right now WW wants to make our marriage work, but she can't see how she could fall in love with me again. So my job is to continue chipping away at that to make her see the possibilities (sounds like plan A to me).

SH also said I need to reinforce us instead of the me lifestyle that WW has created. He said her comment last weekend about doing her own laundry and her going shopping after work Wed night without telling either me or DS is evidence of her "independent" lifestyle she created to have the A. I need to do everything I can to reinforce US/FAMILY. If I can get her thinking US it will help speed her along and see how we could be "one" again, not two living together.

That's about the gist of it. SH also thinks that if I can get her thinking more US and seeing the possibility of us being in love again that eventually she'll agree to talk to him. He said she may agree to talk to him just to shut me up about it at some point. Whatever way works, so I need to continue to throw out MB coaching in subtle ways so eventually she'll talk to him one way or another.

Last night WW was ok. We had some normal conversation. Not a lot, but some. Just need to keep plugging along. Plan B is on hold for now. SH said don't get discouraged as I'm making obvious progress. Just need to keep at it. We did go over my plan B steps if I need to go there, which I've decided I will if she see's OM again. Funny thing is I almost feel like plan B would be easier than what I'm going through now.

Thanks for filling us in, Hope. I'm glad he helped you along in your resolve. I know you are feeling down right now, but you are making progress and I pray that she will start coming around soon. You are doing a great job!!

Thanks LaLa. I'm really re-energized after talking with SH yesterday. He's amazing in how he has called everything WW will do/say from day one. So I'm going to trust him with what I need to do point forward.

SH asked me (as he always does) "how's your energy level". I told him with what he's told me and WW and OM continuing to NOT get together, I could go on for a while. He said, "good, settle in for a marathon. You're making progress even though it's slow going, but you seem to be seeing results". That made me feel pretty good, good enough to go on for quite a while. It's like he recharged my plan A batteries just when I was at the end of my rope.

Money well spent.

H4U:

About this:

"Funny thing is I almost feel like plan B would be easier than what I'm going through now."

Oh?

Read SDguy's Thread.
Or Betrayed Cajun's
Or Bugs or LilSis or Striven4Better's Threads, if you want the female perspective.

PLan A is a kick in the guts, when there is NOTHING in return.

Plan B is a step to take to get WW off the fence. TO MOVE one way or the other.

It might TAKE Plan B to get your WW to realize WHAT she is missing, and will miss.

But ONLY SH can advice you as to what day you may want to consider going to Plan B.

Plan B is tough.

You think what your in NOW is tough? Wait till recovery.

Read SilentLucidity's Thread.

After two affairs her husbands back. Been there for 8 months. But STILL hasn't reconnected back with S/L.

This stuff is tough.

And although it feels like an eternity, it hasn't been. Isn't your M worth the fight?

The worst thing that could happen is that you could divorce your W.

That's the worst thing that can happen. There will be costs. Emotional, physical and monetary costs if that happens.

(I will presume that your WW won't try to kill you or the kids, WHICH is the worst thing she could DO)

Everything else is better than that. Your boys are older, and can adjust to this terrible thing that your WW has thrown into thier lives. It might take time and some IC for them, but they have a chance because they have a strong Dad.

The battle has been joined. You HAVE to see this through to the end. YOU throwing in the towel is BY FAR the death knell for this marriage. IF your NOT fighting for it, how long could YOU look in the mirror?

If the A is over, (and the jury is still out about workplace C on that) Then that was BY FAR the hardest part of the beginning of this battle. Getting WW and OM from being in contact. NOW we have to win the hearts and minds. And that is a TOTALLY different battle. And SH MUST be your general for that battle.

LG

ETA: You posted about SH recharging your batteries after I started the above post, but you slipped in before I posted. All I can say is DUH!

Thanks LG. Don't get me wrong. I know plan B is NOT where I want to go, AT ALL.

I guess I was just meaning it would be easier because it's something that is definitive, not like this living in limbo that I'm doing now. But like SH said, you're making progress. Might not be as quick as you like, but these things take time.

We also agreed that as long as I'm seeing some progress, plan B would be a mistake. I'm only going to go to plan B if WW and OM physically get together again. SH still wasn't terribly concerned about some limited contact between them (email/IM/possibly work phone) but he also thought there was a possibility that NC is in place given WW's anger for 3-4 weeks and depression for 2-3 weeks after the Dec 8 "event" (what ever happened that day). There has been NO cell phone contact since the end of Nov between them. I have a hard time believing that she wouldn't have tried to slip one in sometime the last month and a half if everything in affairland was peachy. There's just too many indicators that it's over, including WW admiting that what she and OM did , hurt people. May get the surprise of my life and they get back together, but I know my Plan if they do and that's when exposure to the kids and plan B happens. SH thinks, given our situation, that WW would probably be back within a couple months if plan B is necessary. He's been right so far, so I'll trust him on this one too.

Funny thing is, like I said to LaLa, after talking with SH yesterday he's recharged my plan A batteries. Just what I needed.

Hope -

Nice to see the batteries are recharged. Very interesting perspective from Harley. I guess it will take time to get past the WD phase. Time - frustrating word. Most guys are built for immediate results from actions. Nope - not in these ordeals - it takes time. Have a good weekend.

Well, the little WW bounce from our conversation Tuesday night is gone. She was back to her angry/depressed self last night.

I came home from work and asked if she'd had dinner yet or would she like to go out? She said she'd already eaten. I asked if she wanted to get a couple drinks? "NO". Ok, I thought, I'll take DS out with me. He was eating something and said he hasn't felt well since the middle of the day. Ok, shoots my plans for the evening. Anyway, a short time later I got something to eat. WW had been upstairs in the bedroom for a while. She came down and started making dinner. I could have sworn she said she had eaten just an hour ago. Anyway, she was making red beans and rice when I brought my dishes to the kitchen. She seemed really pissed that I had eaten. After the beans and rice were done she took them upstairs and ate and spent the rest of the night in bed.

I don't know. Was she trying to reach out by making us dinner and then was angry I'd already eaten? How was I supposed to know when she told me she had already eaten that she was going to make "us" something? Trying to not figure it out, but you know me, I like to speculate (but I'm not letting it affect me!). Is she trying total NC and starting to feel the affects? Tues her attitude was the best it's been since exposure day, Wed still pretty good, but not as good as Tues, Thurs ok but definitely worse than Wed and Friday, back to anger/depression.

I'll just keep plugging along. Going to do some plan A stuff today. Taking a tire from her car to get fixed. She had a flat yesterday morning when she was leaving for work. Going to take DS driving today (he has his temps). Decided I'm going out this evening, with or without them. Plan on doing some house stuff when I get back from tire fixing/hair cut/car license renewal (today's my birthday, we'll see if she even acknowledges it).

Talk to ya'll tomorrow.

I just can't figure WW out. Friday night, totally withdrawn, short one word answers, most of the night in the bedroom.

Saturday (my birthday), WW kind of ok. I left to get her tire fixed before she got out of bed so when I got home she asked me what she had run over, was the tire ok, etc. I cleaned the bathroom sinks and tubs (had done the toilets Thurs) while WW did some other cleaning. Around 2:00 she grabs her purse, puts on her coat and says I'll be back. Comes back about an hour later with nothing to show for her leaving. Did she go to work so she could call OM without my knowing? That's what I'm guessing.

Anyway, she comes home and asks where I want to go to dinner? I said it didn't really matter to me, I would just like to go out as a family. She said "well, it's your birthday, you pick". That was the closest thing to her acknowledging my birthday all day. Don't get me wrong, I don't think of my birthday as a big deal. I always make a big deal of hers and the kids, but for me I just don't think it's that much different than any other day. So WW and DS get showers and we go out to dinner. At one point DS goes to the restroom and I tell WW thanks for coming to dinner and that I really appreciate it. WW says "I only did it for DS". Man, does she have no soul? I just replied, "whatever the reason, I appreciate it".

So then we get home and are watching our son's college basketball game on T.V. and we are talking, laughing at the student section, DS texting us from the game, etc. All in all a kind of plesant evening.

Then this morning when I get up to come downstairs and WW is getting off the couch to go up to bed to continue sleeping we kind of got in each other's way in the kitchen and WW says (in a very sincere voice) "Oh, I'm sorry".

Talked to OMW last night and told her that I thought WW was going somewhere to call OM on the weekends and she said WW was not calling OM's cell phone (she can see it online). I had told her in the past that I was pretty sure OM has a cell phone she doesn't know about, but she then said she had talked to OM during the day and the way he was talking she really didn't think they were in contact. OM tried to call her 8 times before she finally answered his call. I don't know, maybe I'm just paranoid and there is NC going on and that's what is causing WW's mood swings. Maybe her short driving excursions on the weekends is just because she needs to get out of the house and clear her head.

Doesn't really matter at this point. Doesn't change my plan one bit. We had a nice dinner (despite the nasty comment) and nice evening together. Going to do some more plan A stuff today. Go grocery shopping, take DS driving, watch the NFL games (which is always something WW and I do together and usually she enjoys).

Sorry for the ramble. Just needed someone to talk to.

Good Morning Hope,

Here's some more good news. The reports out of Toronto this morning are that they are getting the parade route ready. You know how it is... they win three in a row and all is forgiven. The Toronto sports media are hilarious. I don't know if you heard, but they are talking to Cliff Fletcher and Scotty Bowman... we'll see.

I pray for you that what she is doing is from withdrawal. She seems to act like mine when it comes to contact, she is desperately seeking it, but not getting any answers at the other end.

Thanks TMTS. Hadn't heard the hockey news. I really miss CBC on my satelite. Scotty Bowman huh? Never really thought he would come back to coaching, but it'd be interesting.

I do think WW is the one trying to hang on to this A. But given the situation, things OMW says OM is saying to her, his concern over his position as a contractor for our company, his serial cheating (why continue with WW when he can just move on to the next target?) I think he's moved on. Maybe WW's anger Fri was because she wanted him to drive up her so they could hook up and he turned her down? I don't know, but I think this may be why SH thinks some contact between them right now might not be so bad. Plenty of opportunities for him to LB her. And that's what I need so she'll eventually figure out that he used her. Then my continued plan A will show her the way home.

At least that's what I'm hoping.

That's all we got right now is hope. The info I get is that OM is ignoring, and she's driving him and his sister (Lives with sister) nuts.

They are actually talking to Scotty as G.M. I don't think they are going to drop Maurice.