Krazy - I'm not trying to be arguementative, but I don't see what kind of advice your looking for. Everytime someone responds with some suggestions consistent with the MB principles you seem to reject that idea and firmly state you are not going to do it. Or at least you seem to twist that advice into something akin to groveling. You seem to look at some of the MB principles with a great deal of disgust.

Ok, that's fine.

Then I'd suggest you pick a new model or approach.

The MB principles for overcoming an A put the BS in an "unfair" position, temporarily. It requires the BS to be in giver mode for a while, even though everyone else would look at the situation and say why should you give. Does it sound logical to most? No. Does it sound fair to most? No. Does it always work? No.

If you've done it before and aren't going to go through it again, then again, I say pick a new model or approach. If you can't get "right" with the MB principles, then again, I say pick a new model or approach.

Most BS's understand what you are going through and have been there themselves. But what else can one say, other than yes, all of us had to do some extra effort of attracting our WS back even though we did not have the A. All of us had a period of time where we got rejected, then rejected, then rejected, right after we just got the biggest rejection of our lives.

The MB principles just don't have a part that recomends you demand what you want because your WS wronged you and keep doing so until your WS bends to your will.

If you can't live with what the MB principles suggest, its no shame, many people won't. They just don't think it is worth it.

But most of the advice here is going to be along the lines of the MB principles, so if its something you refuse to do, what advice are you looking for?

Now that you've had some time to reflect on what has happened to you and your M, do you honestly think you will EVER be able to get past the image of your WW naked with OM in YOUR home?

I can feel the pain in your posts, and can only imagine how I would feel if I had to experience the he11 that you have witnessed. I know how hard it was to get past the issues with my FWW's A, and it wasn't even comparable to what you have experienced.

If you think you can deal with this, then good for you, I sincerely hope it works out. However, there would be no shame in admitting that you harbor too much anger and simply couldn't deal with the images of this betrayal.

I have no advice, just perspective.

Good luck to you as I've lurked and thought of you and your situation often.

They didn't see it as treating each other like a piece of [censored]. They liked it enough to risk everything. They both knew exactly what they were getting into. They were a piece of meat to the other, and they knew it.

They may have been acting in an immoral fashion, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a blast for both of them.

Even after the fact, whether they feel guilty, shameful, disgusted, whatever, the fact is that they enjoyed it. Nothing can change that. I'd bet that some of that shame and guilt is BECAUSE they liked it so much.

If it's that good, I want some. Since I'm not the type to go looking for an A, I want to experience it with her. I want the rose-petals-on-the-bed type stuff too, but ripping a page out of the menu after OM samples everything on it is unacceptable.

Staying with her and trying to work things out goes against my nature and my better judgement, but I put myself out and make myself uncomfortable, anyway, because I love her.

Any feelings of guilt or shame related to the A don't begin to compare to what I'm going through. I've never beleived that. If I can leave my comfort zone, she can, too.

Have your asked your wife if she is satisfied with your sex life? (Perhaps wait a few days for things to calm down). Do you and wife have the same goals, the same idea of what the perfect married sex life would be?

rprynne,

You have a good point. I didn't start posting here because of the MB principles. It seemed like a good place to relate to some other people going through the same thing. There is a surprising lack of places like this on the net...don't even get me started on that WS-biased purple-colored site.

I apologize for being argumentative. It's hard to accept that I simply don't have what it takes to save my marriage.

NO PERSON in the midst of an affair...sees the damage...
if they saw the damage it would destroy them....

like it or not...
your wife and om are no different than any other om and wife...

the blastful feelings are fleeting and false...

the nature of the lying beast....

false feelings of feeling of good....

there was nothing good about..
it's YOU that believes there is...

and you can't make it good...
it was as vile as it gets..

like a dog licking it's own vomit...


you should either commit to serious counseling...call the harleys...
or get a lawyer...

I am really really sorry for you in this situation..but I think you need some real help dealing with it....


ARK

Right now "her sex drive is down to zero".

It's understandable, but I doubt she had much get-up-and-go the day I busted her on my couch...after battling morning sickness for 3 hours. She can conjure up the want-to when she wants to...no pun intended.

She has the "let's fix everything else and let the sex fall into place" attitude.

I have the "oh, now that you're done having your fun you want to put sex lower on your priority list" attitude.

Sex was SOOOO important to her before that she risked it all.

I really don't see why I can't put it at the top of my list, now. At least I'm wanting it with her, and not some skank.

Krazy,

Please understand that I can totally sympathize with you. I went through something very similar with my ex. His sex life changes drastically when we were seperated and when we reconciled, I wanted some of that lust in our marriage.

To me, it is a very good sign that your wife has expressed that she is not satisfied with the current status. She wants it to be different. That is good. What you seem to be lacking in is a plan on how to get from where you are to where you both want to be.

People are suggesting candles and soft music and wooing her. I don't know, I am hearing you say you want her to grap your butt when you walk in the door and give you a wink. I think you need to talk to her about how to get from point A to point B. Does she need a little romance to get her fired up again? That is a question only she can answer.

I understand your frustration, you rage and all that. If you two have the same goals, you may need to invest more time and effort before the results show up.

For some reason, I want to make this suggestion. Maybe I am way off base. What if you treated her with all that wifely reverence in person, but sent her racy text messages during the day? Come on to her in a less "in your face" manner and she would have time to digest that you desire your wife and not OM's peice of a$$.

krazy:

THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM.

Whether you feel disrespected or not.

It always cames back to YOU.

Your W took 3 hours to get ready to have SF with you.

Cool. MANY around here would kill for that. The knowledge that in three hours they might have SF.

And your answer was to LB all over her.

Let me give you Sunday Night at the LG household:

Talk about SF tonight all thru dinner and cleaning up the kitchen. Flirting and innuendo abounds.
Bedtime for 15 year old, 9:30.
Wife in shower, with me: 9:35.
LG shaves Flamingo's legs and washes her hair. Uses a device to wash and sand the rough edges of her feet.
Proceed to bedroom for SF.


Yes, I cheated on my wife.

For 4.5 years. The SF with OW was as nasty as anything you or your W may have ever thought about.

And my wife knows all about it.

And look where we are 28 months past Dday.

And look where you are 17 months past Dday.

What happened?

BS read what was going on with MB and applied it to her relationship with me. And I with her.

And look where we are now.

And look where you are now.

You haven't been here at MB long. You have to internalize this stuff.

If you can't put the children to bed until the bathroom is clear, then make sure they are in bed before the door closes.

Sit on the chair and talk to your wife as she makes herself beautiful for you.

Admire her copius amounts of hair. Brush it for her.

AND one day, you will have wild-eyed passionate SF on the kitchen floor that she starts.

Because you gave MORE than you expected to receive.

Flamingo in never going to shave my chin. She may give me a backrup/foot rub, four times a year.

But I give it to HER. With NO Expectation in return. Because it is WHAT she NEEDS to feel loved by me.

And if you always compare your response RIGHT NOW to what you percieved as her response to OM, then you will never get there.

Sorry.

Maybe you don't have what is takes to save this M.

I think you do. You just have to put yourself into her hands, 100%, for the first time. It makes all the difference in the world.

LG

Hello-
I kind of think that you should let it go for now. How often do you have sex? When you do have sex, is it good?

I know that when I was unhappy with my ex for a good amount of time, it was not that fun to have sex. It was more of a chore. Did not look forward to it.

I think that you should stop wanting to have sex with her (at least to her) and leave it up to her. If she makes a move, respond to her. But I think that right now she is in a funk, she is not wanting to have sex with you, she may even be a depressed. And I think that the best way to get her to want it is to ignore the whole issue for a while. Take care of yourself for now, and don't push it. The more you clamor for it, the less she is going to want to do it.

It may just be that she wants you to let her sort through it a little on her own, without pressure from you, or things said about the OM. And I hate to say it, but every time you bring up the OM, especially when you want sex, it is going to remind her OF HIM. And how it was with him. And how it was not so complicated with HIM, and how it was so natural with HIM. Do you get what I am saying? You may be inadvertently prolonging her withdrawl from him by mentioning sex AND him. Which stirs up memories.

So I would say this: You cannot force her to want you. She is going to have to want you. You have to do something to make her want you. I would not even bring up sex for a month at least. Let it simmer down.

JMO

Jean36,

That sounds like a good idea, but I have trouble "hitting" on her at all. Since d-day, I have little spine left. I'm afraid to approach her in that manner, because I can't handle rejection right now. I feel awkward, and the whole time I'm thinking about some aspect of the A. The one or two times since d-day that she initiated sex (during HB), it was great. For once, OM wasn't standing there with his d___ in his hand.

I've been told too many times that I'm only interested in "getting some". I guess I'm supposed to be the only one who squashes their desire in the interest of others.


She knows all this. We've talked about it more times than I can count.

Krazy,

FEAR will kill you and your spirit, in more ways that in your M.

Why not just try the MB approach for a while? It's much less expensive to counsel with the Harley's and post here for back up advice than it is to divorce. It's much better for your children to have their parents fight to stay together.

All of the pain that you are experiencing CAN go away, when you begin to let go. Until then, I'm afraid you will continue to experience this trauma, and build more resentment for your wife because of it.

Personal recovery is also quite important here. Your body and mind have taken a massive assault. Post traumatic stress is not uncommon in these situations. This is why I mentioned taking care of yourself, in the last thread.

I don't think squashing your desire is an appropriate response in this sitch; I believe showing it in other ways IS.

Ok, completely understand. I went through that for years, being afraid of rejection.

Let's break it down:
You both agree that there is a problem. Right? If not, stop here and reevaluate if there is room for compromise.

But it sounds like you both are not happy with the way things are. So now we need a plan to get where you both want to be. Do you agree on where you want to be? If so, continue, if not, reevaluate if there is room for compromise.

I think it would be safe to say that you both have issues. I can't imagine one spouse walking in on another in the act of adultery and all the crap that must leave in both of your minds. There are probably alot of triggers to deal with.

Just so I am clear, you are not talking about certain sex acts, you are talking about the lust and desire for sex that is missing-correct?

There are things that both of you need to do individually. You need to deal with your hostility towards her. I understand it, but it is not healthy for either of you. Some of your comments have been pretty degrading towards your wife. Is there any part of you that wants her to feel degraded, put in her place? I am all for healthy lusty marriages, but not if there is a component of degradation or entitlement to it.

I can't speak for your wife, but she has some cleaning house to do. If she having trouble reconciling that she can be a good wife and mother and still have strong sexual urges for her husband. Perhaps she is compartmentalizing these pieces of her and she can't reconcile the wife/mother with the lusty woman. I don't know how you help her if this is the case. I don't know if this is the case, but it is certaintly something therapy should help with.

Do you think she would be comfortable exchanging written fantasies? Something that could be read without pressure. It might turn out that you to are looking for the same things, but she is afraid you won't have any respect for her if she lets you know that she does have these fantasies?

Perhaps that's exactly the problem. If I knew that every single time my husband kissed me or wanted SF the possibility for a tirade about OM was lurking, I wouldn't let him kiss me anymore.

Self preservation.

Even if she wants to have SF with you, she knows that if she does it wrong or doesn't do it slutty enough for you or however you want it then it's going lead to a fight, then eventually she's going to COMPLETELY turn off her sex drive. That sounds like what has happened here.

It's great that you, as the FWS, do that stuff for your W.
I've gotten little to none of that since d-day.


May I ask who started the positive actions? Is that what you meant when you said your W applied the MB principals?

Krazy71,

I'msorry but I haven't read the whole thread but your post caught my attention.

Have you ever thought about taking a bath together with your wife???

After D-D, this was what we were actually doing all the time.................

Lots of back rubs, feet pampering, wine-drinking, candlelite,music-listening evenings that usually ended up being wonderfull evenings............and it did help alot to create a loving warm atmosphere between my hubby and me again.

just a thought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

bb

Krazy71,

I am in the same boat you are but it has only been about 5 weeks since NC. She flat out told me she is not ready for that now because she "will think about the OM and does not want to bring that into our relationship" and she "wants to improve on SF with the MC because it wasn't very good before." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Ouch! That was the first I heard of it in 10 years...

The MC told us it an important part of being married and we will discuss it next week. No doubt it will be another interesting session.

Krazy - LG did a stellar post to you.

You are in fantasy land my friend.

The dynamics ARE different with a WW than with a WH, no doubt about it.

It sucks but the BS, particularly if the BS is a man, has to lead the way. YOU can lead your wife to the level of SF and intimacy you want.

OR

You can continue to act as you are no matter how justified you feel.

How's that working for you?

Krazy,
The hardness of your heart, and the resentment that comes through lowd and clear, will be the undoing of any R you may have with your W.

You seem to have Zero patience in this process, and that is NOT what a good Plan A is about. You can spout off about the unfairness in all of this that like, but do you believe that any of us BS didn't feel like that at one time or another.?

You have scratched the surface of the unfairness of plan A, and you either have the [email]b@@ls[/email] to do it or not. I could have spewed my venom all over this forum when it was "my turn."

It would not have done me or my M any good to do so. This is a hard choice.

Stop venting and make a choice! this is your life and your choice!!!

Either fake it till you make it, or give in to your pride and bail out.

It's your choice!!!!


You can't linger like this forever!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

Let me tell you a little story.

Shortly after Dday I was pacing around my back yard and i saw my portagle cooler.

I was so pissed off, I thought I would kick that cooler across the yard. My son had used it and i told him to clean it out.

So I proceded to kick that cooler across the yard. I was that pissed off.

I gave it a mighty kick, only to find out that it was full of water!! Yep, I broke my toe in kicking the cooler full of water!!!!!

So who won that burst of anger. Surely not me, and just as surely, not YOU!!

This is going to take time and an extreme amount of patience and love on your part. Recovery is NOT for the faint of heart!!

Balls up my man. Choose yor poison or choose your demise. Each will be as tough to swallow, but one will have a great outcome and one will not. I, nor anyone else here can make that choice for you.

All Blessings,
Jerry