MM,

I just wanted to post a word of encouragement. I think you guys will make it.

BTW, dorry's excellent Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives is well worth reading.

- WG

.

MM,

I just wanted to chime in, also. I am also a FWW who became a BW and am now divorced. I wish I could give you insight into why my marriage failed, but my ex and I have never discussed his affair.

I know that after we reconciled, I busted my butt to be the best wife and mother I could be. I plan A'd my whole family. I was ecstatic to be able to be the woman I had wanted to be and threw myself into my marriage and family.

I don't know how this affected my ex. We seemed blissfully happy for awhile. Neighbors and family commented often that they had never seen us so in love. Out of the blue, I discovered text messages from OW and it came to light that hubby was having an affair.

I am sure we didn't do the work to recover from my affair. Hubby said he didn't need to talk about it. We had seperated, we were both having affairs during the seperation, we decided we wanted each other-that's all he needed to know.

Even though my marriage didn't last, I do take some comfort in the fact that I did work 100% at it during the reconciliation. Even hubby said he had no complaints during that period, the only thing I had done wrong was to believe him when he said he was working late. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You said you didn't think you husband was capable of having an affair. That was my hubby exactly, no one was less likely to have have an affair. He shocked everyone with his affair.

Maybe when you are talking to your H, you could talk about affair proofing instead of just repair work. Maybe it bothers him that he has to do this "homework" because you screwed up.

I wish I knew what went wrong with me so I could tell you of future pot holes. In my case, I think hubby was just tired of doing the single dad thing, his girlfriend and he had broken up, he was just tired and lonely. I came to him ready and willing and humble and he just figured he would let me clean his house until his "true love" came along. (Of course, his affair didn't last, but that is another story)

Good luck to you and your husband.

((((jean36))))

Your story is really painful. I hope that you are finding joy in life now.

EN questionnaire went over like the hindenburg. We got to SF and there were too many landmines, we couldn't navigate. Everything will be ok, but I need to approach more slowly and carefully.

I think I finally see now that this will not be a quick process. I am going to regroup and get some sleep, I'll post more about it in the morning.

maggie"oh the humanity"magster

Maggie - you probably already know what his needs are.

Look on the bright side, you demonstrated to him that you CARE about him and want and are willing to meet his needs. Unless he's having an affair himself he will most probably welcome that.

God Bless.

Maggie,

I promised I would not do this, but this thread seems to be missing a few very important things for you and your H to address. I will go back into retirement after this post, but I hope it gives you some food for thought.

I will preface my comments by pointing out that recovery is a very narrow road and what it requires is the ability to see the road signs and what is causing them. I do think some counseling with a skilled counselor is going to be required and I hope what I am about to say supports this comment.

To sum up in a word what I sense is really wrong here is: RESPECT. Permit me to post what you started this thread with.

You said
The term "respect" pops into my mind. It is not uncommon for a man to feel loss of respect when they feel they are not really needed, and that their W is smarter and better educated than they are. Recall that most of us guys derive our identity from our work and our ability to support a family. If we feel we are failing, the stress and perhaps depression sets in.

Now it is common on this site for men to be counciled that for a woman to want to engage in SF they need to feel loved. What is not mentioned as often is that stress, depression, and fear often lead to men losing ability or interest in SF. See a pattern here?

Note your last comment about not meeting his needs. He met your greatest need by sending you to graduate school. I would bet good money he worried that you would find his lack of education a turn off.


Ok, next thing is clear. He worked hard TRYING to be someone you respected and perhaps needed, but I would bet good money he did not feel either.


Sort of reasonable, but did it cross your mind that he needed to be needed and was somewhat stressed and/or depressed? And then you become angry and resentful. You don't suppose he was resentful do you?


So man of choice is a convicted criminal (3 times), younger man, with a GED. I'm guessing your felt H really valued and respected at this point, given he had just lost out to a poorly educated criminal that was much younger than he was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />




Just for one minute, consider what it must have been like to have your W rub her affair in his face. Could you imagine how belittling this was? How little respect you showed him and yet he stayed.



So now your H wants to sweep it under the rug. He does not want to address this, do you have any idea why that might be?

Permit me to offer you a few possibilities.

1. He has NO respect for himself for putting up with what happened and not cleaning OM's clock and throwing you to the curb.

2. He has a lot of rage inside that he fears letting out. He fears it because it might well end the marriage, and he is not at all sure he can control it if he probes very deeply below the surface. You do know what drives anger right? It is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as fear, frustration, anxiety, pain. Think he felt/feels any of those things.

3. He might avoid addressing this for fear that you will come to realize what he thinks is true: you have no use for him, he is a failure in your eyes, and he could not compete with a uneducated criminal. Worse you left said criminal because he was lying to you if I recall. So a smoother man would have been your choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So Maggie, what is it that you do respect about your H?
Why do you feel he has a place in your life now?
What happens when you feel let down by him in the future? (you don't need him, he has been unemployeed, which further diminishes most men's sense of self-worth)

How do you respect a man you have so completely disrespected?

How does he respect himself for allowing this to happen and remain in this marriage?

If you want him to do more that sweep this under the rug, you had better be prepared for what is being held down inside of him right now. I would like you to show him my post to you and see if he thinks I am even close. I suspect I am. You probably won't need his answer, for if I am close to "some" of his thoughts you will see it in his eyes, you will see it in his body.

In many ways you have ripped off the family jewels and put them in a jar on the mantle for everyone to see. How is this going to be fixed?

I believe it can be fixed, but if I am at all right, the first thing you are going to have to address is the issue of respect. Yours for him, and he for himself. I think a skilled counselor can help alot here.

He is protecting himself and perhaps even you by trying to sweep this under the rug and you are right to recover this marriage these things need to be addressed, but they need to be done carefully. A lot of damage has been done and in some pretty cruel ways.

I do hope this post give you some new things to think about. He is not being just hard headed or even sticking his head in the sand. He is protecting himself and perhaps you and for a good reason.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I have not had the pleasure of going back and reading your posts. I have followed this link all day long and I just am truly saddened that you won't be sticking around.

I don't understand what happened to drive you away or if it was just time, but I do KNOW there many of us who are walking that narrow road and need your input.

I wish you could reconsider and know that you would be touching more people's lives and helping us to learn how to help others.

No pressure, but I am being selfish because I would love to have the opportunity for you to look at what I did to my H and see where I could make the true changes for the future.

Take care of yourself,
Skinsgal

...can't sleep, clowns may eat me...

JL, much of what you say could be true. I hadn't thought of it that way before (probably because my ICs have always labeled his behavior as passive aggresive, not the result of lack of respect.)

As I sit here and think, there are probably deeper FOO things afoot here, too. H's mom is very disrespectful to him. I did not have men that were worthy of respect around when I was growing up. I saw my mom struggle to provide for me with these men, and I thought: that will never be me! I own that, it's NOT an ok attitude.

"Why do you feel he has a place in your life now?
What happens when you feel let down by him in the future? (you don't need him, he has been unemployeed, which further diminishes most men's sense of self-worth)"

Because I respect his kindness, his values, his good attitude, his intelligence, his patience. I love having conversations with him, and I love holding him tight. I promised for better or worse. He's picked me up when I've fallen, and I can do the same for him.

I don't know why I feel the need to nit-pick this point, but I have tried to support him in going to school on several occasions - he always dropped out. Maybe I pounded his respect more by trying to provide for him in this way. I know that when he was supporting me through it I valued his contribution so much - that's why I worked so hard to make sure I did it completely and always tried to be the best at it. I can't imagine someone making that sacrifice for me and just not showing up for classes and then dropping out. And being given another opportunity, and repeating that again.

I clearly don't do submissive wife well, at all. But that doesn't mean I have to be a [email]b@llbuster[/email], either - and I can see through your eyes the emasculation I have created through my own actions.

I'll bring all this up in IC and pray on it as well.

Thank you

Sorry you got the clowns-are-eating-me dream.

Glad you got up to post.

I don't think you rewrote marital history when you said your BH was your best friend...one of the hardest things I realized was how I discounted my DH, who really was my best friend...how the fog made that out to be something it wasn't.

Finding our way back to allies, best friends...who have each other's back, not on the attack, is really important.

We did it through RC time together...slowly, but surely. My DH has a lot of passive-aggressive behaviors, as well. I found some in myself, too, when Mulan posted her boomerang thread link. Don't know if that came out right...it's in that poster's sigline.

And I, too, told BH about my A, from beginning to the end...a terrible torture in that, too, I think. Thank you for considering JL's post with your open mind...because I couldn't see, either, how much I was breaking apart my marriage through lack of respect.

I hope you're feeling better now, than earlier today. Maybe now we can both sleep, eh?

LA

Thanks LA.

At the time I told H everything because I thought it was more respectful than hiding it and lying. There wasn't a dramatic d-day, etc.

It still sucks. It still left it's mark. I gotta heal that now.

Hi Maggie,

Thanx for answering the question about those who 'supported' your adultery.

"My relationship with my mom is good, even though she supported me. She supports me recovering with H, too. Um...let's just say my mom is overly supportive of me and leave it at that."

IMHO you should maybe consider discussing with your mother that in the future you do not want her to 'support' whatever you do. Ask her to be one of the people you can be accountable to, that you can depend on to not condone it when you are doing something wrong. It might help if you explain how adulteyr is like an addiction and that you would certainly hope she would confront you if she saw addicted to something like drugs or alcohol? Maybe she doesn't realize how harmful and addictive adulteyr can be?

IMHO it is very important to address the problem with those who failed to oppose the adultery. How does your BH feel about your mother's choice to defend your adultery instead of your marriage to him? Would it help him in recovery efforts if you asked her to apologize to him and to promise not to endorse adultery if it ever rears it's ugly head again?

"My colleagues are another bunch. Most of them do not live with their spouses (very very common in my field) and loved the drama going on in my life.
I'm currently trying to find another job, so that's where I am with that."

Good idea about trying to change jobs. But unfortunately most workplaces are infected with flirting and adultery. A teenage boy we know was even bothered by a married woman with two kids who tried to talk him into having an A. They worked together at McD's. At your new job make sure your husband and your coworkers meet each other, and that your husband is always invited along to any lunches, work parties, business trips, etc.

"My neighbor is the one who really actively encouraged the affair. She also got extremely drunk (might have been high, too, who knows) one night and tried to make out with my H, claiming she felt "so sorry" for him. She is married. She has actually been to the nuthouse, and should probably go back there. I'm just civil to her...another reason to move away."

Hmmmm... obviously she had her own agenda in 'supporting' your adultery hey? Yea, I had to be very careful what female friends of mine I confided in about my WH's adulteyr problem... Sometimes I would notice that certain friends of mine would suddenly seem much more amused by my husband's conversation and jokes, much more interested in socializing with us, and much more dolled up, after they found out my husband and I were having marital problems... Gots to watch out for those 'friends'...

"So that's where I'm at with my "supporters."

It sounds as if you have already realized how those who supported your adultery just helped make things worse. That's a very good sign. More typically the BS has to try to convince the FWS that sort of support was wrong. It makes it more difficult for the BS to trust again when the FWS doesn't acknowledge that factor.

My relationship with my mother is EXTREMELY convoluted. Your suggestion just isn't going to go anywhere with her. DH tried to expose to her, and that did not go over well at all. She basically told him that she will never side against me, no matter what. I am accountable to my IC, having my mom take that role would be a poor choice for many reasons. At least she is supportive of the recovery. DH's mom has never liked me and is actively against recovery.

So we've both agreed to keep our parents out of this as much as possible. Maybe we can address those issues later. We don't live anywhere near our parents, so we just deal with them in short phone calls every 2 or 3 weeks.

Sorry, I'm babbling now. I appreciate your insight.

"I checked in on him a minute ago and he said, "I don't even know what half my answers to these even are!""

(regarding the EN's questionnaire)

I think a lot of people may not even be aware of what their most important EN's are... They just sort of feel that something is not right but can't put their finger on it...

Have you seen those little quizzes they have in women's magazines that ask you some multiple choice questions about your preferences and then pronounce what sort of shopper, or friend, or stress handler your are?

Or those occupational preference surveys you take in school which based on which activities you choose (would you rather take an object apart or sort papers?) tell you what sort of career you'd enjoy? (I was told I would like being a math or science teacher, a motorcycle mechanic, or a Catholic teaching nun! LOL)

I would prefer an EN's questionnaire more like that myself. (Besides I think it's sort of fun to do them)

So an EN's questionnaire could have you choose which of the following you'd prefer:

A) your spouse buys you flowers with a romantic note attached

B) you and your spouse play tennis together

C) your spouse works overtime to pay off bills faster

D) your spouse sends the kids over to the granparents' house for the weekend and buys some sexy lingere and candles for the weekend...

Then their is a 'scoring' system to determine what your most important EN's are based on the sort of things you chose most often.

Also, meremortal, you are so right about the workplace atmosphere thing. My husband's old job he worked with mostly guys and didn't see much of that. At his new job, women are going under desks to get perks and promotions, it's a really sleazy atmosphere.

My job is mostly gay men and older women, no temptation to be found. Clucking like hens. While the demographic won't change, at least if I go somewhere else at least they won't have my life to cluck about.

My contract is over in June, and I'm really trying hard to get us to a better part of the country (for our employment needs).

Oh, meremortal, you're totally right about the quiz idea - that's brilliant!

"My relationship with my mother is EXTREMELY convoluted. Your suggestion just isn't going to go anywhere with her. DH tried to expose to her, and that did not go over well at all. She basically told him that she will never side against me, no matter what."

Oh I see. And IMHO it's really good that you can see that about her. (BTW, my X-inlaws, 'outlaws' LOL are liek that too). I guess all you can do then is reassure your BH that you won't accept that sort of support in the future, that YOU will defend you marriage and husband even if your mother won't? (I personally don't believe my WXH will ever tell his relatives the truth let alone that they were wrong to support his adultery...)

"I am accountable to my IC, having my mom take that role would be a poor choice for many reasons."

It's great that you have somebody to be accountable to liek that. Smart too!

"At least she is supportive of the recovery. DH's mom has never liked me and is actively against recovery."

YIKES! Hopefully your BH is speakign up to his mother in your defense? I had to do this with several of my siblings in the past when I gave my WH another chance. A hard choice but the right choice if you want to do all you can to try to save your marriage.

"So we've both agreed to keep our parents out of this as much as possible."

Sounds like a good idea.

"We don't live anywhere near our parents, so we just deal with them in short phone calls every 2 or 3 weeks."

We only lived near relatives off and on for very short periods in our marriage so that does help when they are not exactly the marriage-supporting type... I am so glad that I don't live near the outlaws! I don't deny my children the right to go visit them if the WXH wants to take them there, but because of the distance/finances/time, that rarely happens (than God).

"YIKES! Hopefully your BH is speakign up to his mother in your defense? I had to do this with several of my siblings in the past when I gave my WH another chance. A hard choice but the right choice if you want to do all you can to try to save your marriage."

Sort of but not really. It made me angry at first, but I'm dropping it for now. It goes back to what JL was talking about. H's mom has never really respected his choices, and now he's found a wife who does the same thing to him. I don't want to be like his mom, so the disrespect from me needs to stop NOW.

Meremortal said: "Oh and I'm pretty sure SwingDancer told us that the man she is involved with now is still married..."

Good gracious, I am not only the enemy here, but also people will re-write MY history for me, for no reason other than to make me out to look even more hateable!

My current man, my fiance, was divorced for over 10 years when I met him and was not in a relationship of any kind when we met. We have now been together for 4 years. Where meremortal got that he is still married is beyond me.

Maggie - good luck. I'm sorry for hi-jacking your thread, but I just wanted to clear yet another item up about my name so that you wouldn't think something that wasn't true about me...not that you care....I hope your marriage works out.

I am not wanted here and I am leaving. But I still hope for you that it all works out.

SwingDancer

maggie,

I'm so glad that you have not allowed people to control who you talk to, or decide for you who is worth posting to or listening to. Good for you. Everybody is welcome here and everybody has a different perspective....diversity is very valuable. Nobody here is a pro....and so no advice is superior to anyone else's. Some of the people who may have the most important things to say....are some of the ones who have made the biggest mistakes. If we all agreed....this forum would not be nearly so rich. LA is one of the most outstanding posters we have. Swingdancer has tried to be candid and honest. ML, BK, and the Wonderings are very dedicated. Find the best that we all have to offer and don't let the back-biting affect your own ability to discern value.

I'm so glad you're here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />