tarnsy I have lurked your thread but never posted....I am a bit worried at how much he is using the children.....I think you need to have the intermediary tell him in no certain terms that he is not to discuss the situation with the children.....it puts them in the middle and he's using them like pawns/minions to do his bidding...they are kids...let them be kids...they shouldn't have to worry about grown up stuff just yet. I would contact your lawyer if you have one and just state if he doesn't stop the damgaging stuff he's doing and follow the specific intructions of going throught the intermediary regarding scheduling and such the children shouldn't be in his presence....I mean he's a grown man who should be able to control his actions around the children. He has the time to spend with the children not dwell on what your doing and bother the children with asking them about you and sending messages to you via them.

Unless he wants to truly return and establish NC with OW and be there for his family....he needs the slap in the face that he can't have both and you will not let him disrespectfully damage your children in such a way.

Tarnsy,

I been away getting my Mom moved into Assisted Living. Sorta like a trip to h3ll.

I have to agree with SIHW on this. Your WH is using your girls to attempt to manipulate you. Frankly, it doesn't seem like he wants to move his booty off the fence.

You have rocked the boat with your plan B and still he isn't ready to give up OW, establish NC, and come home and work on the marriage.

Please talk to your attorney and see if there is any help from that direction.

I guess if it were me, I'd be getting pretty sick of his bull crap by now. Just how long does he think you can take this?

(((((((Tarnsy))))))))

Who

Good advice here from Principled.

On communicating through the kids, yes it is a crappy thing to do, but you probably can't stop it. I don't imagine that having someone tell him it is inappropriate will penetrate the Fog. After the next time he does it, I would think about sending him a tm that says "Do you think it is appropriate to use the kids to get to me?" But that probably won't work either.

I would definitely have a frank conversation with your kids about why you're doing what you're doing. You have already done that, but express that it is wrong for him to put them in the middle. It is not fair for the kids. The kids should understand that.

You're still doing really well. You got too much information about the OW being sick and lost your focus, but you'll get it back.

I don't get on often anymore, but I do read a few posts. And after reading your story so far I am compelled to pass along some thoughts.

It is ABSOLUTELY essential WH stop using your DD as a go between. Here are some suggestions...

Ask DD to shield herself against hearing anything about you. Tell Dad she doesn't want to talk about or answer ANY questions about you. This is THEIR time and to talk about ANYTHING else. Suggest to her NOT to answer questions about you. If he starts talking about you (and he will) to remind him not to talk about you, and to change the topic.

Do NOT tell you things about dad. Yes, it is important to talk about her experiences. Find a caring adult she is close to she can call after visits to talk with...NOT YOU! Like an intermediary for the kids...

Secondly, every time you hear his voice or read an email or a tm or im you are at square one with your Plan B. How about letting your intermediary tell him that you will block his email, not listen to vm, and erase tm and im without reading it. And then do it. When you see it is a call from him, erase the message. Delete the tm and im without reading it, and definitely block his email. If he REALLY wanted to get ahold of you, he would call the intermediary and if he couldn't get ahold of you he could get a family member to call you.

Plan B isn't about manipulation or getting the upper hand, although it sure does seem like it at first. It is easy to get into a power play with the wayward. Remove yourself. Plan B is about preserving the love you have left so you will have strength left when reconciliation begins. Your love is like a big tub of ice cream. Over the years, and especially lately, that love has been eaten up, and eaten up until one day you look down and there is just one scoop left. Every time you hear his voice, think about him, hear from DD about him, it is like a spoonful of that last scoop is getting eaten away. Preserve that last bit of love with all your being, you will need it later. Once it's gone, it's gone and D is next...

Plan B has a secondary effect too. It gives the W a taste of what life would be like after the D. Would he regret D'ing you? I think so...most do. How fast can he realize this on his own? How quick a learner is he? The less contact you have with him, the faster he will get to this point...

Sure this may take years, it may take months, it may take hours, but every contact you have with him elongates that time...

Good luck, be strong!

Start your Plan B today...

Hi everyone,

Thank you for all the concern and advice re WH using DD's to get to me. I will take some time to think about all the suggestions here as to how to put a stop to it. DD14 is not one to take things lying down and if she thinks that WH is overstepping the mark with his comments she will tell him. Trust me, she soon told me when she thought I was asking too many questions about WH - in the days before I found MB!lol.

It has been pretty quiet, WH seems to be settling down and accepting my not wanting to see him. We have had a little to-ing and fro-ing via my intermediary (K) concerning DD’s not wanting to see OW after she turned up unexpectedly whilst DD’s were with WH. I asked K to pass on that DD’s felt uncomfortable with her there and asked WH to ensure that this didn’t happen again. WH replied “I can’t kick OW out of her own house can I? It is very unfair to ask her to stay out when I have the girls. This whole situation is getting beyond the joke. I have no where to turn, if I do one thing it upsets some one or other. I am stuck in the middle with no where to go! It is all getting a little too much. Give me a small dark room some where so I can curl up in a ball.”

It’s a shame WH didn’t have such concerns about upsetting people before he decided to embark on an A and then moving in with the ho! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Still, I suppose he is more concerned about upsetting the OW than he is his DD’s. I have found myself feeling more anger towards WH because of this; I still find it hard to believe that he could put OW before his own flesh and blood, although I know this is normal behaviour for a WS.

K replied that this was how his DD’s felt, it wasn’t coming from me and that they shouldn’t have to endure more heartache as they have suffered enough already. As a result of this, WH is not seeing DD14 Sunday (DD8 is at a dancing competition) as he has no money to take her anywhere and OW will be at the house. Yet another example of how selfish W’s are!

WH only broke through the darkness once in the last few days and that was today. WH picked up DD14 to take her to school and as she was running a bit late he stood in the hallway. I stayed out of the way, pottering around in the kitchen doing all the normal morning stuff involved in getting kids ready, singing as I went as I often do. This prompted the following email from WH.

“Sorry for emailing you, I know you have asked me not to.
I just wanted to say that I enjoyed hearing you sing this morning albeit for a second or two.
I would have liked to have put your face to the voice, but alas you still will not see me.

Have a good day Tarnsy.

D x”

Obviously he got no response!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"WH only broke through the darkness once in the last few days and that was today."

That's not exactly true. Every time you read email or anything but the facts from the foggy-brained one you are still in contact. It's not just about physical contact.

Instruct your intermediary to give you just a synopsis of data that you need to know from WH emails or convo's...there is absolutely no need to read verbatim dialog between them.

And do NOT read any emails from him.

This is not about him or the Plan...this is about YOU. You are doing yourself a disservice staying so attached. Your love leeches away in every encounter you have.

I have seen this OFTEN...if you continue the way you are going you will not have enough strength for recovery, or will give up before the A does and D is imminent.

I have read many stories on here. It seems the folks who do a half-hearted Plan B, or allow the WS to come back too soon, accept too little, end up in a very bad place, usually D. Please don't go there.

If you have a great deal of love and strength left, then consider going back to a Plan A. If you are truly committed to a Plan B, then do it all the way, but this in between is marital suicide...

Tarnsy,

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with stillmakingithere on this. A real plan B should involve no contact of any kind, no communication of any kind except thru the intermediary, and even that should not be communication that pertains to you or your relationship. Your WH should not be coming into your home to pick up your DD, she needs to be ready when he arrives and he needs to wait outside in the car.

You did a stellar Plan A for more than a year and your WH did not give up OW and come home. I honestly believe that only a good firm, no nonsense plan B will bring him back to the marriage.

I forget who said it here, but someone once said "you only get one chance to do a good plan B."

Please don't consider this a 2X4, I am really concerned for you.

Best,

Who

bumped up

Tarnsy how are you doing????

Hello all,

Sorry it’s been a while but I have had no internet connection for about a month so have been unable to take the time to post.

I shall endeavour to fill you all in on what has occurred since my last post. WH seems to have stopped using DD’s to send messages back to me. At least, DD14 has said little of their time spent together other than where they have been and what they did etc. I have not asked DD’s not to say things that come from WH as I don’t want them to feel unable to talk to me about the situation.

Plan B was working well for me. I was spending less time thinking about WH and what would happen if/when we got to recovery, instead I found myself thinking more about a future without him (somewhere I’d never thought I’d get to!) and wondering about the practicalities of staying in plan B as opposed to starting D proceedings.

It was at this point that DD14 asked both WH and me to attend a meeting at the school – this is the year that she chooses which subjects she will be taking qualifications in – and said quite succinctly that “this is about my education, not about you and dad!” So, as I was feeling strong I agreed to attend with WH making sure that I looked my best and taking on an air of non-chalance.

The evening went without incident. There was little time for chat and apart from pleasantries and a couple of jokes, WH and I hardly spoke. There was no awkward atmosphere and I think we both felt comfortable although we hadn’t seen each other for over 2 months.

A couple of days later, WH sent me a text saying how much he had enjoyed seeing me, how fantastic I looked and how much he has missed me. I didn’t reply. The message had the effect we all know it would. I again started thinking along the lines of “what if he dumps OW?”, “does he miss me enough to end it and come home?”. I know that I should have deleted the text without reading it but I felt at the time that whatever it was, it wouldn’t get to me.

This all happened a couple of weeks ago and apart from a few tm’s (intermediary was unavailable for a few days) we had no more contact. Until yesterday.

This is where it gets interesting. WH caught me on the phone by using an unknown number. My first question upon collecting myself was “have you dumped the ho?” to which there was no reply. WH stated that he had called to speak to DD’s and to let us know that he had paid some outstanding bills, he also dropped into the conversation how lovely it was to hear my voice and how much he missed me. I told him that he knows the answer to that to which he replied “yes, I do”.

WH then spoke to DD’s but before hanging up asked DD8 to thank me for the photo. (A few weeks previously I had a sent some photos of members of his family that I no longer wish to have in the house along with a couple of DD’s and one of WH and myself standing behind those models where you poke your head out of the top, a caveman and woman, taken on a family holiday.) I had forgotten about this so asked “what photo?”. WH said “the one of us as caveman and woman, it tells me a lot”. I then did something I shouldn’t have and “spoke” to WH on IM.

The start of the conversation was basically WH saying how sad, angry and frustrated my plan B had made him feel(!) and how he just wanted to curl up in a ball in a dark room and forget about everything . No sympathy from me on that! He also said that he felt that something was going to break and that he didn’t want that something to be us, to which I had to ask how much more broken could we get!

He then went on to say how confused he is feeling and he doesn’t know which way to turn. I told him that he has been saying this for over a year, to which he replied that it’s different now. He can’t stop thinking about me, all day, everyday and when he closes his eyes. I asked what the confusion was then and he said it is the fear that the things that were wrong in our R before the A would resurface. He can see that I’ve changed for the better but would those changes be permanent.

I told him that I was willing to do whatever it took to restore our family but asked if he was. WH said he knew that there would be lots of tears, anger and resentment towards him from myself and DD’s but (and this is the part that got to me) “I know it would be a lot of tears and anger but if it’s what all four of us want then we can get through it”.

That was basically it as we had to end the conversation as he was at work. I know I probably shouldn’t have broken my plan B, but in a way I’m glad because I was beginning to wonder if I would be up for recovery if the opportunity came along or even if that was what I wanted. Now that I am seeing glimpses of the man I fell in love with I think I may have the strength to go through what will probably be the toughest part yet.

So, bring on the 2x4’s! But please advise me what I should do next. Do I go back into the dark or do I test the water? I don’t want WH to think that I have completely given up on him/us whilst he is having doubts but I don’t want to fall into a false recovery. Just to confirm, I have not contacted WH, it has been his doing, I have repeatedly told him that if he wants to talk M reconciliation then he needs to dump the ho and I know that until this happens, his words mean nothing.

Waiting impatiently for your words of wisdom

Tarnsy

Tarnsy,

Welcome back. You're not going to get a 2X4 from me. It SOUNDS like you WH is starting to waiver a bit. Perhaps he needed confirmation that you were still interested in reconciliation and recovery.

It's good that he knows what must be done and that it isn't going to be easy. The only concern that I have is his emphasis on the changes you have made and your willingness to maintain the "new you."

If he ends the affair, sticks to a complete NC with OW for life, and comes home, he will have to realize that HE has to change as well.

Whatever wasn't quite right in your marriage that led him to believe than an affair was justified, or a solution, was one half his responsibility.

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. Hopefully others who have experience in plan B will stop by this morning.

Good to have you back.

Who

Hi Tarnsy,

I read your sitch last year and agree with Who. Stand firm on your Plan B requirements. NO LESS.

The ball is then in his court.

Don't let him bounce pass it back (diversion) or roll it back (attempt to cake-eat)....make him send it back to you directly with his firm agreement that he wants to abide by ALLLLL your requirements.

Best wishes.

Ace

Hi Tarnsy,,

I am so glad you where able to catch us up to date,I was worried about you. I am no expert on plan "B",but I do think it was a good thing that your WH knows the door is still cracked for him. You just have to make sure you go back into B mode so that he doesn't get his Tarnsy fix and thus doesn't have to make any decisions on comimg home.

keep up the good work and stay strong! F-26

Tarnsy --

A different opinion from me.

Just when he was getting uncomfortable...just when he was feeling his consequences....just when he was wondering if he had pushed you too far -- you stepped in and relieved him.

Now he has the strength to continue his affair just a bit longer, because he knows he hasn't pushed you too far yet.
He knows he can prolong this a bit longer because you are still waiting for him.

Was that what you wanted? To prolong this affair?

I suggest you send him another copy of your Plan B letter.
Attach a note saying that the recent contact with him has been painful because he knows how unhappy you all are with the situation, but he is DOING nothing to change it.

This is an interesting turn of events.

The way of the WS is they will eventually feel remorse and guiilt for what they have done, sometimes that is soon, and sometimes that is later. You would hope that is sooner, and that is what Plan B will effect, how soon they 'get it'.

It is VERY common that a WS will test the waters before coming back, see what the situation would be like, how much punishment and consequences they would have to face. And sometimes they are testing the waters to see if they can negotiate a return to having both of their love interests hanging on...

Just from what you have said, this sounds like the former. He is rethining coming back, but hte A hasn't ended yet, there is trouble in paradise, but he is not completely disillusioned by the A...yet.

What I have seen happen in the past, what worked for me, and what I have even heard the Harley's recommend is very similar to what you have done. When there is accidental or required contact, and you get the kind of questions you received, you show the WS there is still a path back to you, and what it looks like...no mo ho, and hard work on both your parts. I think you effectively did that.

When he gets close again he will test the waters again. It will be up to you to determine why he is in contact again...

I would not initiate or allow contact. But if it accidently happens again, reassure him of your intent to work on the marriage, and that the ho has to be completely gone (not necessarily in that order).

On the other hand...he knows what he needs to do...he would like to have you both...and is fighting with himself and making excuses and lying to himself about why he is not coming back to the M. Let him work it out on his own. If he can begin to tell himself the truth, you will want him back, if he comes back filled with these lies and excuse, who wants that.

My suggestion is to stay dark...let him stew. Let him know you are not running back to the excuses, but only the whole man is allowed back...

I agree with re-sending the PBL.
it restates everything without having contact.

hugs,
cgw

Hi Tarnsy,

This does appear to be good news and, like the others who have responded, I think the way in which you handle this situation is rather crucial.

It would be very easy to let your eagerness to have him back screw up the opportunity to start recovery by relaxing the conditions of his return. It would also be easy to open up to some form of relationship with him.

I don't think you have done anything wrong, you have just clarified that you are willing to have him back but only under the right conditions. This seems to be a hallmark of successful endings to Plan B.

It might be worth you reading the Plan B success stories (link in my signature) to see how others managed their way out of it. Ironically many seem to involve quite a bit of contact at the end of Plan B but the purpose of that contact seems to be to reinforce the boundaries and sometimes to provide encouragement to implement them. Some of them even Plan A'd from a distance under advice from the Harley's.

I don't know what would be best for you but one thing I have learned is that if you allow them back without sticking 100% to your boundaries, you will be wasting your time. For example: "I will write the NC letter." is useless. A written one, with the stamped, addressed envelope is what you accept.

Good luck to you tarnsy, I hope this is what you've been waiting for.

Best wishes,

P

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies. I have taken some time to think about things and to read up on some other threads (thx Principled) and I think the best thing for me to do at the moment is to “be still” as somebody wisely advises here.

My plan is to not initiate any contact and to avoid WH where possible. If WH does attempt to contact me I will continue to reiterate what was stated in my PBL, i.e. dump the ho, commit to NC for life and marriage counselling. So far he has only hinted at agreeing to these and as we all know actions speak louder than words.

Lexxy, you asked if I was concerned that I may have helped to prolong the A. Well, tbh, it has been going on so long now (16 mths since dday and 4 mths previous to that) that I am not duly concerned. I am no longer at the point where I cannot see a future without WH and if he does not come back to the M then I will be fine. I don’t think the A will last much longer whether I am in the picture or not and I would rather that WH got the OW out of his system rather than come back and always have those “what ifs”.

The only contact WH and I have had since last week was entirely accidental when we bumped into each other in a local shop yesterday. Thankfully I was looking pretty good which is more than I can say for WH! He was visibly pleased to see me and said how lovely it was and that he just wanted to give me a cuddle. I took this opportunity to tell WH that he knows what he has to do for that to occur to which he replied, yes I do. When we parted company he said “see you soon” to which I said “probably not”. WH said “I think it will be”. Again, just hints, nothing concrete.

In the meantime, I shall carry on with my life with DD’s and if WH continues to make noises then I will just restate the conditions he needs to meet before we can discuss reconciliation. I don’t want him to think that the door has been permanently closed, at the moment, he still has a chance to come home but I think this will probably be the last one.

If anyone thinks I am going about this all wrong then please point me in the right direction!

Thanks for all your words of advice and support

Tarnsy

tarnsy,

You've got it spot on!

I hope I'm as adept as you at handling that accidental meeting if I ever get the chance.

Keep us posted.

Best wishes,

P

Hi Tarnsy,

I'm glad to hear that you are doing OK. I am hoping that some of the experienced plan Bers here will be able to advise you on something that is on my mind concerning your situation.

I guess that I am wondering, since you did such a long plan A during which your WH often hinted and or implied that he might be coming home (correct me if I am mistaken), I am wondering if there is something that you should be conveying to him ???? that will let him know than even in plan B, there will come a time when you will no longer be willing or interested in resuming your marriage to him.

I understand that you have reached the point where you will be OK even if he doesn't come back,



but I am wondering if your WH has even considered that. His recent hints and comments





during the last chance encounter you had with him certainly gave me the impression that he ASSUMES that the door will always be open.

Experts, Any thoughts?

Who

Thx Principled.

I surprised myself at how I handled the meeting! Not long ago it would have probably occurred differently but months of reading here has prepared me well! I'm sure you will do just as good a job should the chance present itself.

Who, you have mentioned something that has been on my mind alot. Should I let WH know that this is probably the last time he will have the opportunity to come home or not? It doesn't seem to fit with what is stated in the PBL. The PBL gives the impression that the BS will wait for the foreseeable future but there comes a point where we all just want to say, "you know what, I've had enough, I have more respect for myself than this".

I'm pretty sure that this is where I am at the moment. Yes, it would be fantastic to have WH come home, remorseful and willing to put his all into our marriage, but it won't be the end of the world if he doesn't.

But would letting him know that this is possibly the "last chance saloon" be seen as pressuring him, manipulating him even? I don't know.

I hope some others can throw some light on this dilemna.

Tarnsy