If I could tell that trolls were definitely trolls, I would blast away with the best of them....and I would say more than NO!

Thanks for your kind words, Chai. Did I say I was thinking of leaving? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Dang, I messed up....I can't go no where.....I need this place too much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh...I may have said I didn't know if I wanted to be a Veteran In Training but I meant to help others like the seasoned, overbaked, ancient, old timers do year after year after year. I waver between taking all I can get and giving back nothing (not all the time, but sometimes) and actually envisioning my DH and I being a team here day and night for years and years and years to come.

Of course, he does NOT like to write (and when he does it's a trigger for me as he only did it for OW).....so that may not happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Chai...so glad you're here, too. We're all in this together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ace

[color:"red"]Edited to add:

PS Dang, Believer, SS and I were simulposting. Thanks SS. [/color]

[color:"blue"]*****************************************************************************************

Mark asked a great question below that I inadvertently simulposted after, seemingly interrupting the flow of his thoughts when I replied to FH's post, also below. I'm duplicating FH's post here ~ it's worthy of reading twice ~ and moving my reply up here so I may delete it below:

****************************************************************************************** [/color]

ForeverHers
Member


Reged: May 01 2002
Posts: 7258
Re: ***Are you WEARY of the WAR of WORDS**** (or is it just me?) [Re: Ace_in_bucket]
#3368192 - Tue Jan 01 2008 06:27 PM


hmmmm....I'll have to think about this one a little, Ace.

Words have meanings and sometimes words are used as weapons, not to help someone. Sometimes they can be ignored and sometimes they can't, or shouldn't, be ignored.

But in general, "wars of words" have always been a part of MB and will likely always be a part of MB because it's an open system to all, and with as many people from differing beliefs, backgrounds, even countries, there will be the inevitable "clash of ideas."

************************************************************************************
Ace_in_bucket
Member


Reged: Jan 14 2007
Posts: 3196
Re: ***Are you WEARY of the WAR of WORDS**** (or is it just me?) [Re: ForeverHers]
#3368211 - Tue Jan 01 2008 07:17 PM


Good point, FH and you're right. This title of this thead kind of slipped out in my post to K and I rode it for awhile.

But I think I may change it based on your last statement:




Clash of ideas is often needed and healthy for any progress to be made. But not the personal attacks. I was telling K that the Enabling/Controlling thread had numerous clashes of ideas. Yet it was likened to threads of yesteryear by seasoned veterans who posted with respect for both the ideas shared and the person sharing them.

A newbie SS asked for that thread today and I was proud to bump it for her. But if the helpful insights were interspersed with bashings and blastings leved at the poster's personal existence, that thread might not have been as helpful.

While you think about the concept, FH, I'll try to come up with a more appropo title. (No guarantees that my changing the title won't change the concepts while you're in the middle of thinking about it.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ...LOL! )

Thanks,
Ace

hmmmm....I'll have to think about this one a little, Ace.

Words have meanings and sometimes words are used as weapons, not to help someone. Sometimes they can be ignored and sometimes they can't, or shouldn't, be ignored.

But in general, "wars of words" have always been a part of MB and will likely always be a part of MB because it's an open system to all, and with as many people from differing beliefs, backgrounds, even countries, there will be the inevitable "clash of ideas."

I had a verbose reply all typed out and was editing it when I decided to try a different tack...

Do I have any responsibility for the way people react or respond to me.? In other words, do I have a moral or ethical responsibility for the way others perceive me or my actions?

Suppose you go with friends to a rather large noisy bar where the reputation of the establishment is a bit on the racy side. Since you are in training for the NYC marathon, you don't drink, just hang out with friends and listen to the way-too-loud music from the sound system. As you leave the bar, a group of passers-by accosts your group verbally calling you a bunch of worthless drunks.

You know you weren't even drinking and that your friends are anything but worthless since they are doctors and lawyers and business executives...

So do you have any responsibility for being thought to be worthless or a drunk or anything else these people might accuse you of though they don't know anything about you?

Suppose you go to another club a week later with different friends, all professional athletes celebrating their world championship. The party is really cranking soon after it starts and as you and a couple of others who have families waiting at home for you extract yourselves from the revelry and exit the club having never had so much as a soft drink, the same group of people goes by and once more says that you and your friends are worthless drunkards.

Now do you have any responsibility for their perceptions?

And of course I have a reason for posting this here, but I want to see who responds first and see how they respond as well.

I don't know how we can control another's perception. We can, however, control the image we attempt to project, but how it is perceived is then out of our control, I think.

Responsibility? Can we be responsible for what we cannot control?


I am looking forward to your reason, Mark.

Ace

I'd like to read your verbose approach as well as your different tack.

Ace

Yeah, me too.



Or even worse, drive them off with a false accusation.

You know, Ace, it's only in "blessed time" that we get to know one another on these boards, don't you think?

That's an interesting idea about the links. I will give due consideration to linking my story in my sig line, then it will be even more accessible than in the "Success Stories" thread.

Thanks, Neak,


Enhanced accessibility to stories of recovered or recovering posters is the first benefit. When a new poster has NO link to a status story (first post or thread) attached to a sig line, it might expose the fact that there may NOT be a story ~ but other reasons ~ that such a poster has arrived here on these forums. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

And yes, it is about time that we get to know each other better on these boards. Thanks for linking/posting your success story to that thread. (One of these days I'm going to compile a list of all the stories on that thread and see who is missing.)

If you are recovering or have recovered (individually or maritally,) ~ if you haven't done so yet ~ please post/link your story to the Success Story thread (link in my sig line) or your own sig line, especially when posting to newbies.

Thanks,

Ace

Regarding the idea of being responsible for the perceptions of others - we are responsible for what we do and how we comport ourselves.

If others have misperceptions, then the perceptions are based on what information their brains have and the interpretations their informations systems place on it at the time. That is perception, basically. We take in information through our sensory system, we make "sense" of that information via our neurological systems - perception.

Our brains err all the time. You're walking through the woods and see something on the ground and jump, thinking it's a snake, only to discover it's just a stick. Your perception was wrong. Are you "responsible" for that error? Just a systemic error - that's it. Natural responses set in motion to protect you from getting snakebit, but it was an error (that time!).

So in my mind, the answer to the question if others' perceptions of me bear my own "responsibility" in your scenario is NO. I think that unless I have purposely done something to cause that perception to be skewed in one direction or another - then yes, I bear "responsibility" in that sense. Other than that, no, I don't. In the bar scenario, I have done nothing to skew the perception of my drunkeness or worthlessness. The other person bears responsbility for judging my condition without research or evidence.


If this relates to the troll accusations - well, they are certainly on the board. One has his own thread and is currently apologizing, finally.

The mods do their job.

SB

Not a lot of answers yet, but definitely the answers I expected.

Now suppose that you are attending a company picnic and the same group of people walks through the park and they see you with a beer can in your hand. Though you are really only carrying an empty can to the trash, they assume you have been drinking. And of course, they then say something about you being drunk every time they see you.

Is it still only my responsibility to know the truth, or does the way someone else perceives my actions begin to reflect on me in such a way that my own credibility is being impugned?

At what point am I responsible for the way my actions are perceived?

What if a child who respects me is with that group of people? Does that child believe I am a drunk? Does that child believe that it is OK to get drunk based on my actions even though they were misinterpreted? Do I have any responsibility for what that child believes?

In order to foster further discussion, I will add that this has to do with perceived intent versus unintended consequences.

If someone is offended by my actions or words, do I have any responsibility for that offense though I intended none when I first acted or spoke?

Mark

Depends. Would a reasonable person know that it was likely to cause offence? Is taking offense unreasonable?

Possibly to some extent.....

I did a topic on the Vacation fun thread that involved something perceived to be offensive although I did not intend for it to be. (I thought it would be funny to try to assign a cartoon character to OW images which eventually led to OW bashing.) Did I realize that it might possibly be offensive to FWWs? NO! But it hit me out of the blue that it might be perceived as being insensitive so I immediately changed the topic and apologized for my lack of forethought.

It was not my intent, but I felt it was my responsibility to try to own my error as soon as I realized it.

Were some FWWs offended? I knew of one but there could have been many more and I felt horrible. If you are a FWW who was offended by that topic many moons ago, please accept my sincere apologies. I am very careful now and will be from now on when trying to think of creative non-affair topics.

Does that example fit with what you're aiming at, Mark?

Ace

I'm still gone, but:


I think that it is because we can't always be certain that our actions won't harm someone, that we have 2 be careful what we choose 2 do that might affect other people.

Ultimately, this is about controlling ourselves by controlling our actions, and doing our best not 2 appear 2 someone else 2 be trying 2 control them.

Empathy.

So, I agree that we're not responsible for others' perceptions, but there may be times when it is in our own best interests 2 be a bit more thoughtful of our actions, lest they are misinterpreted. In the examples Mark gives, it is the beholder who's responsible for their own judgment. And one would hope that they could avoid drawing prema2re conclusions about what they observe.

Empathy again.

-ol' 2long, exiting stage left.

So where we stand depends on where we sit...

So someone else may misunderstand us and jump to the wrong conclusions. But what if that same person routinely makes that erroneous jump? Do I have any responsibility for what they think, feel or how they react to my actions or words?

Or what if many people routinely make that wrong assumption and misjudge our intent?

And if it happens many times, is that what makes the difference or does the same judgment apply no matter how often or how many times someone else takes offense at what we say or do, though we intended no harm when formed our words or committed our act?

Is the criteria used to be "do no harm" or should it be, "to appear to do no harm." Or is the only thing that really matters that we are honest with ourselves about our intent?

And does the fact that someone else misjudged my intent and based their feelings about my actions on that misjudgment mean that their offense at my action is their fault and that I have no responsibility in how they have judged me, wrongly as it might be?

This begins as such an easy question to answer because of course I am not responsible for anything anyone else does or says...until what they do or say is a response to what I have said or done. Now it gets much stickier.

As a BS am I responsible for having feelings of anxiety when I am triggered by an event or action or some other thing related to the affair, or is the FWS responsible for my reaction when I am triggered?

And if the FWS knows of some thing or event that is likely to trigger me, do they have a responsibility in regard to my triggering when they cause it to happen?

Let's try a fishing analogy here...

When I throw a spinner bait with a gold willow-leaf blade and a chartreuse and white skirt into the water and retrieve it beside a log where a 6 pound bass is lurking in the shade and that fish triggers (the releaser is dead on) and bites my spinner bait, do I have any part in that fish's decision to attack that spinner bait? Or is the choice solely up to Mr Largemouth?

Mark

well I'd go for the latter. It is very hard for someone else to guess my intent and they guess wrong a lot anyway.


Why does it have to be anyone's fault????


You are responsible for your own triggers IMO. I will say however that if I am triggered by anything and my wife understands it is a trigger, she would rather die than ever trigger me again. That's care.

2long maybe you should consider practicing empathy towards Christians since you think it is fine to say very blasphemous things quite often.

Does the fact that I didn't mean to hurt someone's feelings absolve me of responsibility if their feelings are hurt by something I say or do?

What I am driving at here is that we ARE responsible for how others see us, perceive us or respond to what we say or do. And when we accidentally cause harm to someone, we should take responsibility for it and attempt to make amends.

But there is even another dynamic at play here. When I KNOW someone else will misjudge my intent, misunderstand what I am saying or doing, and then do or say it anyway, I have done intentional harm to them because I had the ability to circumvent those reactions from them all along but CHOSE not to adjust my own actions or words because how they see me isn't my responsibility. I have used the fact that it is them choosing to attempt to absolve me of any wrong doing in the matter.

And even in cases where I do not intentionally make an inflammatory remark for the purpose of stirring up trouble, when it is pointed out to me that my action or words were inflammatory, and I repeat the process again and then try to defend it, now I HAVE crossed the line and am no longer without responsibility for my actions or words because I now KNOW that my words or actions are being misinterpreted and still choose to continue without modification.

BK, you and I agree that we should appear to do no harm. The fact that we didn't mean to do harm does not remove guilt in a court of law and should not in social interactions either.

When anything is done that is wrong, there always is someone at fault. Someone is to blame. Courts of law are all about affixing and assigning blame and fault to individuals.

And while I am responsible for allowing myself to trigger to some event or thing, does that mean that the person who caused the trigger to exist is absolved of all responsibility in my triggering. Though it is up to me to find a way to stop triggering at some event, it does not remove the responsibility of the person creating or continuing that event in my reaction to the trigger.

What we have here is really a case of not caring or a lack of what 2long has called empathy. Because those who are standing on their right to say things and having no responsibility for how those things are taken, processed and turned into a response are ignoring the fact that it is not merely a one time thing but something that is repeated over and over again. They defend their actions and words and claim it is their right and how others perceive their actions and words is not their responsibility. But knowing we are being misjudged and continuing unabated on the same tack shows that we are proceeding with malicious intent.

Mark

This seems to be a fairly nice discussion (and yes - gasp - even disagreement) going on here.

Just remember, whenever any of us gets discouraged by the storm, that it won't rain always.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Even when it rains, it won't rain forever...

Mark

I really need to go to bed...

Nightie-night.

Mark